You cannot be both pro-Evolution and anti-Religion

[1048576]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confounding_variable

Maybe religious people eat a lot of ice cream, and ice cream causes lower suicide rates. Maybe if you control for ice cream eaten, religious people commit suicide more often. Republicans tend to be more educated than Democrats, until you control for income. Highly educated middle class folk are more likely to vote Democrat than low-educated middle class folk. Same for the poor and the rich. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simpson's_paradox

I'm not going to touch your conflation of "good" with "able to outcompete" with a 10 foot pole, because I know you'll make everything more obtuse and more convoluted until you drive everyone away until AltF4 or rvkevin translates your words into english and points out the simple logical fallacy.

 

[Nicholas1024]

Succumbio, I believe DRE presented the atheist sources because he felt those would have the greatest impact. (That is, they're admitting a benefit of religion. You'd likely take this with a grain of salt if it was a study by Christians, but as an atheist study, it seems reasonable to accept it as truth, right?)

@DRE
I believe what Ballin is trying to say is that you've only shown correlation, not causation. For example, at the moment the data could prove with equal honesty that religion makes people happier, or that non-suicidal people are more likely to believe in God. To progress from here you'd need to show why believing in God makes a man happier. For example, as a Christian the big factor would be the promise of heaven, and knowing that we're assured of making it there through the grace of God. However, there's other factors, for example participating in fellowship and finding friends at a church.

 

[Sucumbio]

@nic

I suppose someone who is suicidal feels abandoned and religion fights this feeling, so maybe that's why religious people are less apt to commit suicide? Excluding ritual suicide religions of course.

I'm not going to touch your conflation of "good" with "able to outcompete" with a 10 foot pole, because I know you'll make everything more obtuse and more convoluted until you drive everyone away until AltF4 or rvkevin translates your words into english and points out the simple logical fallacy.

So wait, you're saying they're not the same thing? That's okay, I mean I can just re-say what I said with "able to out-compete" in place of "overall good" and I'd still be thinking the same thing.

Here...

... bad habits and trends have resulted in hardship and a tendency to lessen the overall "ability to out-compete" in something.

The point is that in order to prove a contradiction we first have to prove that religion is disadvantageous. Perhaps we start a list or something so that we can weigh each criterion and judge upon them? I realize even each item would be debatable as to whether it's a con or pro, but... you gotta start somewhere.

 

[ballin4life]

Succumbio, I believe DRE presented the atheist sources because he felt those would have the greatest impact. (That is, they're admitting a benefit of religion. You'd likely take this with a grain of salt if it was a study by Christians, but as an atheist study, it seems reasonable to accept it as truth, right?)

@DRE
I believe what Ballin is trying to say is that you've only shown correlation, not causation. For example, at the moment the data could prove with equal honesty that religion makes people happier, or that non-suicidal people are more likely to believe in God. To progress from here you'd need to show why believing in God makes a man happier. For example, as a Christian the big factor would be the promise of heaven, and knowing that we're assured of making it there through the grace of God. However, there's other factors, for example participating in fellowship and finding friends at a church.

I'm also skeptical of the suicide-"happiness" connection that was thrown about.


Random aside: I am not a fan of when people cite happiness statistics. One common example of this is the various studies that support the statement "people with more money aren't necessarily happier". If you are measuring people's "happiness" level via a survey then it's not an apples to apples comparison. People are going to rate their happiness relative to some baseline level which is influenced by their current and past circumstances.
So it doesn't really make sense to say "oh, both the rich person and the poor person had a happiness rating of 6, so having money doesn't make you happier". I think if you switched their positions, e.g. took all the money from the rich guy and gave it to the poor guy, their happiness ratings would change drastically, and so money would have an effect on happiness rating.

 

[Le vieux lapin]

It's interesting to note that there is no unbiased source to retrieve information on the subject.
You either have a religion or you don't, and since both sides are in this argument, it is difficult to
gain clear data from a third party( like the youtube atheist ), aside from personal observation.

Religion, while antiquated and unnecessary, has proven itself with it's vast, if not always positive, impact
on human history. It is so deeply ingrained in our roots that it cannot be ignored or brushed aside. It is a vital part of our human nature.