Yoshi's Viability

[Metatitan]

So recently A LOT of yoshi mains have either decided to take a break from him to improve better other characters, or have just left him entirely. Not to mention a lot of people don't know exactly why yoshi is bad and therefore pin him down as bad for the wrong reasons. He's bad, we know that, but he's bad for specific reasons. Yoshi NEEDS a strong secondary for him to be tourny viable, and even then the secondary has a way of becoming the main (as in me with peach). Here are the reasons that I think yoshi is a bad character:

1. Priority Issues
Yoshi has pretty bad priority, but so what so does Olimar. However, yoshi doesn't have nearly as much range as olimar, and olimar has other attributes that make simply make him a good character.

2. A lot of bad moves
One thing I noticed about yoshi that high (and even middle) tiered characters don't have are a ton of bad moves. With peach I can only think of two bad moves, down tilt and toad, and even then those moves aren't terrible. Yoshi has A LOT of bad moves, including Fair, Dair, down smash, egg roll, dash attack and others. And even then, yoshi's "good" moves are only considered decent when comparing to other characters. The only move I can think of that he has that's outright fantastic is egg lay. Bad moves limit yoshi's options.

3, Killing Issues
Yoshi has HUGE issues with landing the KO move. People usually live to around 150% before yoshi lands in the needed Uair or Usmash. And the problem is is that this problem isn't going to go away. Yoshi doesn't have an extremely powerful KO move that's hard to land, f smash isn't that strong. Peach has KOing issues, but with all the research going into her up smash currently, her metagame is advancing and she may start killing a lot earlier. Yoshi simply doesn't have that type of killing potential.

4. Lack of OoS
Jumping out of shield really isn't the issue, yoshi's shield is nice in the fact that it's hard to pierce. But the main issue is the amount of frames it takes to drop. Therefore we have to fake OoS, and even then it's a game of Russian Roulette depending if we time it right or not.

5. Lackluster Camp Game
At the start of brawl, yoshi had a fantastic camp game. And on wifi it's still fantastic because people can't get around it. But offline, yoshi's camp game is getting easier and easier to get around. For a game based so heavily on camping, that isn't good.

These are just reasons that I think yoshi is a low tier character, for any who disagree PLEASE speak up, I'd love to hear points I missed or points I made that are false.

 

[Deleted member]

Uhh yoshi sucks then end?

I agree with most of it. I think recovering against good players is another big one. Mk's best position is when you are above him, and he can basically stand by the ledge so you have to come from above, and then juggle you. Other characters can do similar things, like marth.

I think you covered a lot of it, altho theres more complicated stuff to yoshis not goodness.

 

[VSC.D-Torr]

Very good insight, Meta

 

[Poltergust]

For once, I agree with you. It irks me when people say that Yoshi is a bad/good character for the wrong reasons then I have to correct them. >_>

 

[Metatitan]

Yoshi has more potential that say jigglypuff because he's somewhat fast and has many more options than her (virtually all her ground game is useless). I just wish he had some super powerful move (jiggs has rest, peach has upsmash) that we could do research into to make him a better character, but we don't. So while he has more potential than a lot of other low tiers, he's greatly limited

Which is also the reason I'm a pikapeach main now ;o

 

[Poltergust]

Well, there's always the rare chance of landing a f-air spike at 50%... but his spike is so weak that it probably won't kill them anyways if they react correctly.

 

[Metatitan]

Well, there's always the rare chance of landing a f-air spike at 50%... but his spike is so weak that it probably won't kill them anyways if they react correctly.

Fair's not even worth research into because it's a move that plays ENTIRELY on your opponent's mistake.

 

[Deleted member]

Not too many characters can boast an aerial grab with disjointed range (Sorry bowser) that is double jump cancellable wiht yoshis very strange double jump.
O right, only yoshi can.

I think he still has a ways to go before we hit his limit.

 

[Delta-cod]

I have to say, I agree with most of what Meta says.

I don't believe we've fully explored Yoshi yet, however. People still have differing ideas, which means they've come up with some sort of option that may or may not be viable and can be tested. I don't think any of us believe he can be a high tier, but he's certainly lower than where he should be.

I think we need to explore gimping more, since that's what Yoshi needs, early kills. Apart from some characters that are outright un-gimpable, there's a way to gimp or put heavy damage on any character trying to recover. Whether it's off stage assault or having an immense presence on the ledge, there's always a way to put some serious damage on an opponent.

Also, I love Yoshi's grab game. It makes me very happy.

 

[Deleted member]

But you cant just explore things. If something obvious works, wed have found it by now.
Yoshi needs some guarenteed set ups at 100-120. Thats what we need.
Wheres scatty

 

[Delta-cod]

Actually, you can just explore things, and weed what works out from the junk. I'm not suggesting you try and egg roll as an edge guard or something, but mix ups, different uses for attacks, etc., can still be found. I'm not trying to say there's a gold mine out there, but there are still things left to find, I believe.

 

[Shiri]

My main beef with the way you describe Yoshi since day one has been his "low priority."

The fact that you also claim Olimar has a similar level of priority troubles me.

I need for you to explain what exactly your definition of priority is, because I'm certainly not seeing eye to eye with you on this one.

I would say that I disagree with you on Yoshi needing a camp game, but that is a playstyle choice and it would be judgmental of me to confront someone on how they play. Brawl has moved forward a lot since the beginning and even though it's still as gay as it used to be, it's far less campy, and one of the reasons I think many Yoshi players lose is because they still have the notion that camping somehow wins with this character or many other characters. I remember going back and reading some of our matchup threads and the first few posts are either "camp camp camp this matchup is 55:45" or "we can't camp we lose this matchup". Characters can't really camp with only one move (one reasonable move, that is)...if you look at "campy" characters, you'll find they have multiple things to camp with because that's how you successfully camp in a game like this; you can't be a one trick pony and still come out the winner. Yoshi doesn't have it in the dimensions of his character to camp well and he certainly doesn't need it to do better; there are other areas where he can improve to win more consistently with less risk for the same rewards.

 

[Greward]

I disagree with points 1 and 5.
Yoshi has bad matchups, i think that's all XD

yoshi boards are nice :3

 

[Y05H!]

I disagree with point 5, but that's from my own experience's. I've never really faught anyone that relied on camping, thus never had a problem with it. And very rarely have I had to rely on camping to stay alive.

Of course this view may change when I can start going to tourney's again.

 

[MorpheusVGX]

I don't agree with many of your points. One thing I like about Yoshi is that all of his moves can be used and are good. They are not exceptional or broken, but they are good. Bair, Uair, Dair and Usmash are beyond good to me.

Dair bad? How can you say that? It is not so hard to connect and can deal more than 30! Not to mention you can combo that move into Uair or Nair!
Fair bad? Is one of the best spikes in the game, used with Yoshi's A class horizontal air movement!
Dsmash is not a strong killer, but it is still a good move. Good range, good speed, good damage if both tail swipes connect.
Egg roll is not bad when used correctly.
Yoshi is not a camper but his egg throw is a solid projectile to annoy campers or deal damage on recovering or airborne enemies.
About Yohi's OoS game.. he just have to be played differently.. His shield is strong but slow, so for a counterattack you have to learn to rely on his spot dodge which is quite good.
I agree that Yoshi is not an early killer but he has many options for a creative mind. Bair->Usmash, DACUS, Spot dodge->Bomb, Dair->Uair. Dair->Footstool jump. Fsmash is useful when used as a dodge and hit. Fair and Dair are pretty good gimpers. Uair and Usmash alone are good killers.
I don't have problems recovering, if you know when to throw your egg (after or before the jump) , good air dodges and the use of bomb to grab the ledge.. hmmm .. isn't that enough?

There is something I must say (yoshi mains have left this boards for this reason) about these boards:
There is poor dedication to Yoshi. Few mains and poor dedication. Have you compared how poorly developed are Yoshi boards compared to others?
Few people have given attention to Yoshi. Maybe because they see him as a stupid dinosaur, or because he wasn't high on the tier list, and he wasn't that low either.
To me, Yoshi's metagame has developed VERY slowly. He has good attributes people forget ( good air and ground mobility, and the weight of a tank, a good mix of ranged, fast and strong attacks ).
I've seen many famous Yoshis and I can tell they are not that precise with their moves. I haven't seen a Yoshi pro player with a level of Ally's Snake, Snakee's ZSamus, Z-air Samus or Armada's Sheik. And even guys with good but not perfect Yoshi use have gotten far on tournaments. So, that leads me to think Yoshi has a lot of untapped potential. For his mobility to be used to its fullest, his egg throwing, DR, DT.
I hope you take this as constructive criticism. I just want Yoshi's metagame to evolve further.

 

[Delta-cod]

I have to disagree with some of your points about Yoshi's moves. Yes, they do all have their uses. However, a lot of the moves have very, very, very, specific uses that most of the time won't even show up, and when they can be used, are often not used simply because you're not used to using the move.

Also, Fair's not a really good spike. XD Dair's okay, I personally like using it instead of a dash grab at times as a mix up.

I concede the lack of dedication. I've heard people say all the discussion is done already, yet it's not. I know some MU threads that just disappeared off the face of the earth, never getting discussed. I'd post in some of them, but I don't have experience with EVERY MU so I can't. Even if you can't post a giant summary like some people have on a MU, anything you know is fine, since it helps people like me, who don't know everything, get an idea of the MU. It also prevents people like me from just theorycrafting in discussion, since I know most of you hate that.

 

[Deleted member]

I don't agree with many of your points. One thing I like about Yoshi is that all of his moves can be used and are good.

Dair bad? How can you say that? It is not so hard to connect and can deal more than 30!
Very few uses for it, its very hard to connect, and it almost never deals 30. Too situational
Not to mention you can combo that move into Uair or Nair!
Fair bad? Is one of the best spikes in the game, used with Yoshi's A class horizontal air movement! Its not one of the best spikes, its not bad imo but its kinda sitiutational as well.
Dsmash is not a strong killer, but it is still a good move. Good range, good speed, good damage if both tail swipes connect. Punishable on block, its ok tho.
Egg roll is not bad when used correctly. Yes it is
Yoshi is not a camper but his egg throw is a solid projectile to annoy campers or deal damage on recovering or airborne enemies. Ok give ya that.

About Yohi's OoS game.. he just have to be played differently.. His shield is strong but slow, so for a counterattack you have to learn to rely on his spot dodge which is quite good.
Uhh no its terrible. His spotdodge is good, but good players predict it. And punish hard.
I agree that Yoshi is not an early killer but he has many options for a creative mind. Bair->Usmash, DACUS, Spot dodge->Bomb, Dair->Uair. Fsmash is useful when used as a dodge and hit. Fair and Dair are pretty good gimpers. Uair and Usmash alone are good killers. Sort of, hes still pretty bad at it, no good early killers except uair, you gotta get good reads to kill, none of his killing moves are very safe either. Dair to uair does not work.
I don't have problems recovering, if you know when to throw your egg (after or before the jump) , good air dodges and the use of bomb to grab the ledge.. hmmm .. isn't that enough?
Uhh i guess nobody reads your airdodges or anything.
There is something I must say (yoshi mains have left this boards for this reason) about these boards:
There is poor dedication to Yoshi. Few mains and poor dedication. Have you compared how poorly developed are Yoshi boards compared to others?
Few people have given attention to Yoshi. Maybe because they see him as a stupid dinosaur, or because he wasn't high on the tier list, and he wasn't that low either.
To me, Yoshi's metagame has developed VERY slowly. He has good attributes people forget ( good air and ground mobility, and the weight of a tank, a good mix of ranged, fast and strong attacks ). What...
I've seen many famous Yoshis and I can tell they are not that precise with their moves. I haven't seen a Yoshi pro player with a level of Ally's Snake, Snakee's ZSamus, Z-air Samus or Armada's Sheik. And even guys with good but not perfect Yoshi use have gotten far on tournaments. So, that leads me to think Yoshi has a lot of untapped potential. For this mobility to be used to its fullest, his egg throwing, DR, DT. Uhh... of course we arent as good as ally? I dunno who z-air is. Armada is the 2nd best melee player in the world obviously we arent that good.
I hope you take this as constructive criticism. I just want Yoshi's metagame to evolve further.

Lol wtf xD
I wish i wasnt so lazy else id go into detail.

 

[mountain_tiger]

I agree with most of what you said, Metatitan. I think either the killing issues or his ooS game is probably his biggest problem. Though there's one thing that you said wrong. You said that Peach's Toad is a bad move. It isn't; if you use it at the right times it can be pretty useful. Situational =/= bad.

 

[Metatitan]

I agree with most of what you said, Metatitan. I think either the killing issues or his ooS game is probably his biggest problem. Though there's one thing that you said wrong. You said that Peach's Toad is a bad move. It isn't; if you use it at the right times it can be pretty useful. Situational =/= bad.

No it's a pretty bad move. At least with marth's counter, if you hit him from behind he'll attack you.

 

[bigman40]

I don't agree with many of your points. One thing I like about Yoshi is that all of his moves can be used and are good. They are not exceptional or broken, but they are good. Bair, Uair, Dair and Usmash are beyond good to me.

Play better people and say that.

Dair bad? How can you say that? It is not so hard to connect and can deal more than 30! Not to mention you can combo that move into Uair or Nair!

This can be powershielded most of the time. Dair can just be SDIed (Hell, even DIed) to where you're placed in a bad position again. There are rare times where you can even combo into a Nair/Uair, and it's even harder to make this move connect in the first place.

Fair bad? Is one of the best spikes in the game, used with Yoshi's A class horizontal air movement!

I was one of the Yoshi players to land a lot of Fairs, and it's still a bad move. There's not real disjointedness, so it'll get OPed when you go against another move. You can possibly get lucky and force an airdodge and punish that while they're trying to land onto the ground, but that's tricky to land.

For trying to spike and get an early kill, that's way to obvious to see coming.

Dsmash is not a strong killer, but it is still a good move. Good range, good speed, good damage if both tail swipes connect.

Rare chance both swipes will connect, and while it's not a bad move, it certainly isn't amazing, great, or good. It's decent.

Egg roll is not bad when used correctly.

No.

Yoshi is not a camper but his egg throw is a solid projectile to annoy campers or deal damage on recovering or airborne enemies.

I give you credit that people have leanred that Yoshi can't camp. however, his projectile is medicore at best. It's very laggy, and making it land precisely, or even trying to make it trap an opopnent is dumbly harder than how other projectiles are.

About Yohi's OoS game.. he just have to be played differently.. His shield is strong but slow, so for a counterattack you have to learn to rely on his spot dodge which is quite good.

Rely on spotdodge, you'll get ****ed. He AT LEAST needed to be able to jump OoS. This would easily bring in Nair as a viable and safe move. At this point, when you plan on shileding, you might as well also plan to not be punishing nearly as much cause you're pushing your luck when you have to get out of the shielding animation to even do anything to your opponent while they're in lag.

I agree that Yoshi is not an early killer but he has many options for a creative mind. Bair->Usmash, DACUS, Spot dodge->Bomb, Dair->Uair. Dair->Footstool jump. Fsmash is useful when used as a dodge and hit. Fair and Dair are pretty good gimpers. Uair and Usmash alone are good killers.

Bair > Usmash isn't a legit combo, and it can be used as a trap, but when they pay attention, they'll be able ot block it.

Yoshi has no DACUS.

Spotdodge > Bomb is still tough to land. People aren't going to make careless mistakes close to you, and most of the time, you'll only have time to Jab them out of your face.

Dair > Uair is random to land.

Dair > Footstool is stupid. The opponent can DI up and footstool you out of your Dair.

Fsmash is meh on killing. the dodge isn't big enough to make a difference and the range isn't far enough to help (which is what we REALLY needed for it to be a much safer move).

There is something I must say (yoshi mains have left this boards for this reason) about these boards:
There is poor dedication to Yoshi. Few mains and poor dedication. Have you compared how poorly developed are Yoshi boards compared to others?
Few people have given attention to Yoshi. Maybe because they see him as a stupid dinosaur, or because he wasn't high on the tier list, and he wasn't that low either.

You consider how much work I put into Yoshi then come back. I was very hopeful for Yoshi this game only to get disappointed once again. Hell, if there was some kind of hitstun in some of his moves, he'd be able to garuantee a shield break or kill.

I've seen many famous Yoshis and I can tell they are not that precise with their moves. I haven't seen a Yoshi pro player with a level of Ally's Snake, Snakee's ZSamus, Z-air Samus or Armada's Sheik. And even guys with good but not perfect Yoshi use have gotten far on tournaments. So, that leads me to think Yoshi has a lot of untapped potential. For his mobility to be used to its fullest, his egg throwing, DR, DT.
I hope you take this as constructive criticism. I just want Yoshi's metagame to evolve further.

So who do you think they'd put in about 3x more work to get to the level of Snakee or Armada? Not to mention that Ally is levels above them. If you'd like to put in that amount of work (which would mean that you'd need a surplus amount of techskill) then be my guess.

I disagree with points 1 and 5.
Yoshi has bad matchups, i think that's all XD

yoshi boards are nice :3

We try =3

But you cant just explore things. If something obvious works, wed have found it by now.
Yoshi needs some guarenteed set ups at 100-120. Thats what we need.
Wheres scatty

Bair (first flick) to Fsmash is garanteed. However, you basically need to be flying into your opponent to land it correctly. Not only that, the range for this to work is from like 90% - 110%. Yoshi has no other garanteed kill setups other than a lucky timed-out egglay to Fsmash/Usmash/Uair/Bomb.

I think we need to explore gimping more, since that's what Yoshi needs, early kills. Apart from some characters that are outright un-gimpable, there's a way to gimp or put heavy damage on any character trying to recover. Whether it's off stage assault or having an immense presence on the ledge, there's always a way to put some serious damage on an opponent.

Yoshi at gimping takes traps off stage and lots of other things. You'd really need to be a great egg shooter (not thrower. You need to be a ****ing sniper) to make his game better offstage, and figure out how to force situations to lead to some type of gimping, which is fairly limited to his DJ.

Not too many characters can boast an aerial grab with disjointed range (Sorry bowser) that is double jump cancellable wiht yoshis very strange double jump.
O right, only yoshi can.

I think he still has a ways to go before we hit his limit.

He doesn't have much farther to go w/o being extremely unsafe.

1. Priority Issues
Yoshi has pretty bad priority, but so what so does Olimar. However, yoshi doesn't have nearly as much range as olimar, and olimar has other attributes that make simply make him a good character.

Yoshi priority is mediocre at best. That's not his true problem. His problem is blind spots. Yoshi has far too many blind spots. Take a look at other characters, and tell me how many blind spots are within them. Also, take note to how big of a window that spot is open then when you look at Yoshi last, you'll realize that he has a long time to even recover and make his blind spot avoidable (let's not forget the blind spot that is always open).

5. Lackluster Camp Game
At the start of brawl, yoshi had a fantastic camp game. And on wifi it's still fantastic because people can't get around it. But offline, yoshi's camp game is getting easier and easier to get around. For a game based so heavily on camping, that isn't good.

Yoshi never had a good camp game. As far as his moveset is made, he will never have a good camp game.

Did I wake up on the wrong side of the bed? No. I just realized that he just plain sucks in this game without giving yourself the amount of tech skill and the amount of prediction that is needed to combat at high levels consistently.

 

[SOVAman]

lol @ wall of quotes GGs bigman

 

[YoshiIslander77z]

lol ive noticed were all really negative towards yoshi not that theres to much to be possitive about. maybe we should try to construct, together, a playstyle thats viable for yoshi, and shows yoshi viable options.
...then we can wish we find 30% comboes, some 0-60% cgs, and some fair/fsmash enhancement so it kills at 90.

 

[VSC.D-Torr]

lol ive noticed were all really negative towards yoshi not that theres to much to be possitive about. maybe we should try to construct, together, a playstyle thats viable for yoshi, and shows yoshi viable options.
...then we can wish we find 30% comboes, some 0-60% cgs, and some fair/fsmash enhancement so it kills at 90.

I'm not negative about Yoshi

then again, I barely am ever here

 

[bigman40]

lol ive noticed were all really negative towards yoshi not that theres to much to be possitive about. maybe we should try to construct, together, a playstyle thats viable for yoshi, and shows yoshi viable options.
...then we can wish we find 30% comboes, some 0-60% cgs, and some fair/fsmash enhancement so it kills at 90.

From 0-15% you can land a FF Nair > Ftilt/Jabs/Dsmash.

From 15-25% you can land the previous combos and you can also land Dtilt/Utilt/DownB/Fsmash.

After 30% for most characters, you can combo with Jabs (this means that Jab > Jab from under 30 isn't a true combo when they're planted onto the ground).

From about 40/50 - 80% you can combo a Bair (first flick) to Jabs/Ftilt/Utilt/Dtilt/Dsmash/DownB.

From 80/90 - 110/120% you can combo the previous moves, but you can also combo with Fsmash.

If you have the guts to attempt to approach with egg throw, you can combo it with kill moves if done right.

That's his legit combos. I may be negative, but I've done a hell of an amount of work to find what he can do. Since we all currently know he has a killing problem, it could be easily remedied from getting the egglay to time out consistently. Like I said, if you play Yoshi, you have to flirt with danger most of the matches.

 

[Deleted member]

Good **** scatty!

 

[Depster]

I'm thinking egg combos and DR could be the keys to doing better, because not many people do very advanced stuff with those. It's like going back to the explore thing. Nobody does that stuff cause it's so hard, but what if we all could do any Yoshi tech on command?

 

[Y05H!]

Yoshis' egg's mediocore? o_O

They may not be great, but what's with all the Yoshi negativety on his own forum =(

 

[YoshiIslander77z]

ok lets build off of what grampz wrote
we have some official comboes, lets see if we can get some more.

what are some viable approaches and how there preformed

 

[Shiri]

Viable approaches, I think, include:

Egg Lay.
Back air.
Dash grab.
DT forward and down tilts.
Short hop Egg Toss to falling neutral air or Egg Lay.

You can also use your air speed to put up a neutral air and kinda weave back, but you have to be careful during the burst frames because when Yoshi's boot gets big to kick, it's also easier to grab because it's so big, so be extremely cautious if you choose to use neutral air.

Of course, empty short hops and short hop airdodges are standard; I don't think they have to be listed.

 

[Gindler]

Yoshi's not bad...........but yeah, i do A LOT better now that I have secondaries.

 

[Delta-cod]

From 0-15% you can land a FF Nair > Ftilt/Jabs/Dsmash.

From 15-25% you can land the previous combos and you can also land Dtilt/Utilt/DownB/Fsmash.

After 30% for most characters, you can combo with Jabs (this means that Jab > Jab from under 30 isn't a true combo when they're planted onto the ground).

From about 40/50 - 80% you can combo a Bair (first flick) to Jabs/Ftilt/Utilt/Dtilt/Dsmash/DownB.

From 80/90 - 110/120% you can combo the previous moves, but you can also combo with Fsmash.

If you have the guts to attempt to approach with egg throw, you can combo it with kill moves if done right.

That's his legit combos. I may be negative, but I've done a hell of an amount of work to find what he can do. Since we all currently know he has a killing problem, it could be easily remedied from getting the egglay to time out consistently. Like I said, if you play Yoshi, you have to flirt with danger most of the matches.

I'd like to add onto this. I just played some offline friendlies and was able to do:

First Flick of Bair to Uair. It looked inescapable. It was about 130%. I'd imagine it works from about 130-150-ish, hopefully.

 

[bigman40]

I'd like to add onto this. I just played some offline friendlies and was able to do:

First Flick of Bair to Uair. It looked inescapable. It was about 130%. I'd imagine it works from about 130-150-ish, hopefully.

Normally anything that makes opponents get to the point where they can airdodge after getting hit means that you can combo unless you immediately hit them before they're able to airdodge. The first flick of a Bair stops working at like 115% for most characters and 120% for the more heavy characters. So, when you use it higher than that percent, you're not going to garuantee a followup.

....Zuzuzu....

 

[Delta-cod]

I figure he would have tried air dodging it.

Big, I looked at your frame data chart and I don't quite get what the hit lag length is. Does it mean the hit stun the opponent has? I don't understand what 38 to AC means, either.

But if I look at it the way I interpret it, it comes to this.

Bair Flick: 5 frames hitstun.
Bair autocancels before Frame 38, which the first flick falls into.
Uair: Hits on Frame 5.

That means that it should work, assuming I understood your chart right. Uair has enough range to hit, as well as Yoshi having enough Aerial mobility. Jumping wouldn't really escape the attack, seeing as how the first flick won't knock them up very high. I don't believe any character's air dodge activates on the first frame, which means that it'd be impossible to dodge the uair.

Chart I used: http://i194.photobucket.com/albums/z1/1bigman40/Framedata.png

 

[bigman40]

I figure he would have tried air dodging it.

Big, I looked at your frame data chart and I don't quite get what the hit lag length is. Does it mean the hit stun the opponent has? I don't understand what 38 to AC means, either.

AC = AutoCancelled
Hit lag length = the time that the opponent and you are frozen (the time he can DI your move)

But if I look at it the way I interpret it, it comes to this.

Bair Flick: 5 frames hitstun.
Bair autocancels before Frame 38, which the first flick falls into.
Uair: Hits on Frame 5.

You left out jumping frames, which take 7 frames of lag before he can do anything. The move comes out on frame 9, and the landing lag is what you need to take in account. the AC is the frame the move will be able to go straight into anything else when he lands onto the ground. You also have to take in the amount of time it takes for your opponent to airdodge. Then you add in all of the numbers up to see how long the move should take after the hitlag has finished.

So, Yoshi will have a total amount of 27 frames (considering that you had the Bair land on the ground the frame when the hitlag finishes) to make all of this happen. If your opponent can just buffer an airdodge in between that window, then it's not guaranteed.

And if you didn't know where I got 27 from, here's what I did:

Landing lag of Bair (15) + Jumping lag (7) + Uair startup lag (5) = 27 frames inbetween hits.

 

[Delta-cod]

Oh, okay then. I was just confused as to what some of the terms meant.

Guess I just got lucky he didn't airdodge, then. =/

 

[Shiri]

Smash variable hitstun is what makes this game so hard to plan for. :D