Yoshi's Double Jump Tolerance (In Progress

[YoHeKing]

This thread is about Yoshi's amazing Double Jump Armor and what certain percentages! The numbers mean what percent they go up to without breaking. After these numbers it no longer works.

WARNING!
This does NOT include any form of Rage and does not include Stalling of moves or Freshness Bonus!

Spoiler: Aerials

Aerials

Characters| Neutral Air | Forward Air | Up Air | Down Air | Back Air
Bowser | | | 55 | 42 |47

Bowser Jr. | 88 | 80/70? ||

Captain Falcon | | | | |

Charzard | | | ||

Dark Pit | | | ||

Diddy Kong |106 | 95|75|53|84

Donkey Kong ||||||

Dr. Mario | | | ||

DuckHunt | | | ||

Falco | | | ||

Fox | | | ||

Ganondorf | | | ||

Greninja | | | | |

Ike| | | | |

Jigglypuff| | | | |

King Dedede| | | | |

Kirby| | | | |

Link| | | | |

Little Mac|Can't Break |150+ |200+|150+ |130+

Lucario| | | | |

Lucas| | | | |

Lucina| | | | |

Luigi|Start Up 84 | 129|Start up103 Soft Spit 158|Spike 119 Non spike 111 | 67

Mario|111 |Start Up 86 Spike 72|95| |Hard Hit 87

Marth| | | | |

Mega Man| | | | |

Meta Knight| | | | |

Mewtwo| | | | |

Mii Brawler| | | | |

Mii Gunner| | | | |

Mii Swordfighter| | | | |

Mr. Game and watch| | | | |

Ness| | | | |

Olimar| | | | |

Pac man| | | | |

Palutena| | | | |

Peach| | | | |

Pikachu| 86|First Hits 999+ Last hit 81% |86 |First Hit 93 Grounded Hit ???| First Hits 999+ Last Hit 74

Pit| | | | |

ROB| | | | |

Robin| | | | |

Rosalina| | | | |

Roy| | | | |

Ryu| | | | |

Samus| | | | |

Sheik|111|83|First 3 Hits 300+ | 100+ |96

Shulk| | | | |

Sonic| 86|First 4 hits 99+ Last hit 71 |Start Hit 999+ End Hit 81|Spike 51 Non Spike 50% |60

Toon Link| | | | |

Villager| | | | |

Wario | | | |

Wii Fit Trainer| | | | |

Yoshi| | | | |

Zelda| | | | |

Zero Suit Samus|89 |First Hit 200+ | 84| |52

Spoiler: Specials

Characters| Neutral B| Side B| Up B | Down B
Bowser | | | |

Bowser Jr. | | |

Captain Falcon | | | |

Charzard | | | |

Dark Pit | | | |

Diddy Kong | | | |

Donkey Kong | | | |

Dr. Mario | | | |

DuckHunt | | | |

Falco | | | |

Fox | | | |

Ganondorf | | | |

Greninja | | | |

Ike| | | |

Jigglypuff| | | |

King Dedede| | | |

Kirby| | | |

Link| | | |

Little Mac| | | |

Lucario| | | |

Lucas| | | |

Lucina| | | |

Luigi| | | |

Mario| | | |

Marth| | | |

Mega Man| | | |

Meta Knight| | | |

Mewtwo| | | |

Mii Brawler| | | |

Mii Gunner| | | |

Mii Swordfighter| | | |

Mr. Game and watch| | | |

Ness| | | |

Olimar| | | |

Pac man| | | |

Palutena| | | |

Peach| | | |

Pikachu| | | |

Pit| | | |

ROB| | | |

Robin| | | |

Rosalina| | | |

Roy| | | |

Ryu| | | |

Samus| | | |

Sheik| 200+ |First Hit 300+|First Hit 39 Last Hit 999+| 77

Shulk| | | |

Sonic| | | |

Toon Link| | | |

Villager| | | |

Wario | | |

Wii Fit Trainer| | | |

Yoshi| | | |

Zelda| | | |

Zero Suit Samus| | | |

This is in progress. Feel free to help.

 

[Shadó Chimera / シャドーキメラ]

Was this done in training mode?

 

[YoHeKing]

Yes is that bad?

 

[Shadó Chimera / シャドーキメラ]

It's not bad, just helpful to know because training mode doesn't factor in a freshness bonus. All we can do anyway is have approximations.

 

[YoHeKing]

It's not bad, just helpful to know because training mode doesn't factor in a freshness bonus. All we can do anyway is have approximations.

Freshness bonus?

 

[Shadó Chimera / シャドーキメラ]

Freshness bonus?

If a move is fresh (not used in the last 10 moves) it deals 1.05x damage. Training mode doesn't apply stale move negation at all, so it does 1x.

 

[YoHeKing]

If a move is fresh (not used in the last 10 moves) it deals 1.05x damage. Training mode doesn't apply stale move negation at all, so it does 1x.

Does It effect launching power?

 

[Shadó Chimera / シャドーキメラ]

Launching power is partially determined by damage, so changes to damage will change knockback.

 

[YoHeKing]

Launching power is partially determined by damage, so changes to damage will change knockback.

Ill check how much it effects the percents. If its only a few percent changes I might just bring them down a few percent.

 

[Shadó Chimera / シャドーキメラ]

That might make it inaccurate. imo stick to training mode.

 

[Yikarur]

(0.07p(d+2)*200/(w+100)+18)g + 100b

this is roughly the knockback formula

If you take the BKB and KBG Data from http://pastebin.com/PzTjdtx8 this and fill in the numbers you can roughly calculate how long a move will last super armor. I even have an excel for this.
Super Armor breaks if the result is about 12000.
p is the total damage after hit, d is the damage of the hitbox, w is the weight of the target, and g and b are growth and base.

@Thinkaman may have a more accurate version of this by now. I got the formula from him few months ago.

 

[YoHeKing]

Awesome. So... Should I update this now (I didnt have time untill now) or did you guys already have a chart?

Edit: thats patch 1.0.4. Ill have to find the recent one.

 

[Skitrel]

If we're re-opening this topic to make it valuable, how about we also add moves to the OP that ignore our armour?

Off the top of my head some of these scary moves are:

Falcon upB
Ness sideB
ZSS NeutralB

A comprehensive list of these would go nicely alongside a comprehensive list of move percentages that break armour.

Yohe. I'd be very appreciative of this project getting finished. I can help you out if you like. But at the very least let's get the top 10 characters in here first? Diddy, Sheik, Rosa, Pikachu, Luigi, ZSS, etc etc.

This is one of the things I'd like to stop doing by feel and start knowing 100% for certain from matchup to matchup. It's not good enough doing it by feeling, too many accidental deaths are occurring. I think every Yoshi should get this information engrained into their mind as it's pretty much the biggest cause of unexpected early percent deaths barring sideB input errors or forgotten jumps.

 

[YoHeKing]

If we're re-opening this topic to make it valuable, how about we also add moves to the OP that ignore our armour?

Off the top of my head some of these scary moves are:

Falcon upB
Ness sideB
ZSS NeutralB

A comprehensive list of these would go nicely alongside a comprehensive list of move percentages that break armour.

Yohe. I'd be very appreciative of this project getting finished. I can help you out if you like. But at the very least let's get the top 10 characters in here first? Diddy, Sheik, Rosa, Pikachu, Luigi, ZSS, etc etc.

This is one of the things I'd like to stop doing by feel and start knowing 100% for certain from matchup to matchup. It's not good enough doing it by feeling, too many accidental deaths are occurring. I think every Yoshi should get this information engrained into their mind as it's pretty much the biggest cause of unexpected early percent deaths barring sideB input errors or forgotten jumps.

Yeah Ill work on it tonight i promise. But yeah set up a list of moves we cant break and that would be amazing. Doesnt PK fire from lucas always break our jump? But we can jump out of ness' side b and ZSS neutral B we can go perfectly out of.

 

[WalrusBiscuit]

This thread will be extremely helpful once its finished.

 

[YoHeKing]

So Ill do the aerials for Sheik, Diddy, Yoshi, Mario, Rosalina, Luigi, Ness and ZSS.

 

[YoHeKing]

Updated Sheik, Pikachu, Sonic, Diddy and ZSS! Rosalina is gonna take alot of time so I will do her possibly tomorrow.

 

[Skitrel]

Great work YHK. Good progress.

Observation - It might be valuable for us to consider other moves like tilts and smashes too. Today I came across a Wario that adapted to using dsmash as an edgeguard. It caused me a lot of pain as it was knocking out my jump armour as low as 40-60%

 

[YoHeKing]

Great work YHK. Good progress.

Observation - It might be valuable for us to consider other moves like tilts and smashes too. Today I came across a Wario that adapted to using dsmash as an edgeguard. It caused me a lot of pain as it was knocking out my jump armour as low as 40-60%

Trust me I will be adding that In the future. Jabs too and also customs and items(including gyros and even casual stuff). I will also include get up attacks and stuff like throw hitboxs(when you get hit by marios back air but didnt get grabed). But as of now I may work on specials and aerials the most.

 

[YoHeKing]

Luigi, Mario and Little Mac(Which you shouldnt really care about his aireals) are updated.

Idk if I should make update post this much. Insted ill make one every 8 characters I do?

 

[Masonomace]

I'd like to help with the Shulk section in your OP YoHeKing (sorry for tagging in advance. Don't know if you have your thread on watch.). So do I fill in the knockback formula shown in Yikarur's post & go from there sharing my results? And how long does Yoshi's jump tolerance last? I just wanna make sure of this before going full-on lab mode.

 

[YoHeKing]

Not sure if his formula is 100% accurate. Good way to test stuff is custom stage or battlefield. If you have yoshi double jump under the bottom platform you should have enough time to test it out as long as shulk is over the platform.

If you want you can link me to the thread and I can help out.

 

[Masonomace]

Shulk - Aerials
Neutral air has a sweet & sourspot. Shulk's Nair is special though, because the sourspot is the hitbox closer to Shulk while the sweetspot is the cyan energy blade part of the Monado. The red glass blade itself is the sourspot. So, the sourspot up close deals 7% & the sweetspot deals 8%

Forward air & Back air work like they would normally. Forward air's sweetspot deals 7.5% & the sourspot deals 6%. Back air's sweetspot up close deals 12% & the sourspot deals 8%.

Up air & Down air are two-hitting aerials. Up air's first hit will always deal 5%, while the second hit's sweetspot up close deals 10% & the sourspot deals 7.5%. Down air's first hit is a unique case because it deals different damages based on whether the opponent is grounded or airborne when hit. For this case though, Yoshi doublejumping in the air means that Down air first hit will always be dealing 5%. The second hit sweetspot of Down air up close deals 11% & the sourspot deals 10%. Finally, the first hit of Up air & Down air are both Weight Base Knockback meaning they have set knockback, which doesn't break Yoshi's tolerance even at 999% in Training Mode. So, have some numbers including Monado arts. Blade will be the sweetspot, & Beam will be the sourspot except for Nair. So B/B = X/X in table. And for Down air's spike color difference, I'm having the first value be spike, the second value be the sakurai angle, & the third value being the Beam sourspot.

Character | Nair | Fair | Bair | Uair second hit | Dair second hit
Vanilla Shulk | 93 / 82 | 78 / 96 | 57 / 89 | 47 / 60 | 105 / 113 / 61 Speed Shulk | 93 / 83 | 79 / 97 | 60 / 91 | 49 / 66 | 108 / 116 / 63 Shield Shulk | 95 / 84 | 80 / 97 | 61 / 92 | 50 / 66 | 109 / 117 / 64 Buster Shulk | 182 / 161 | 162 / 195 | 111 / 168 | 111 / 148 | 171 / 183 / 137 Smash Shulk | 67 / 59 | 54 / 65 | 44 / 66 | 29 / 40 | 88 / 95 / 39

 

[YoHeKing]

I want to get the whole thread like that sooner or later. Thanks for testing that out. Btw was this done in training?

 

[Masonomace]

I want to get the whole thread like that sooner or later. Thanks for testing that out. Btw was this done in training?

All in Training Mode, & those numbers for Shulk's aerials are what they go up to without breaking his armor like your OP says.

EDIT: Also, Jump art isn't mentioned because it deals the same damage as Vanilla.

 

[YoHeKing]

All in Training Mode, & those numbers for Shulk's aerials are what they go up to without breaking his armor like your OP says.

EDIT: Also, Jump art isn't mentioned because it deals the same damage as Vanilla.

Ill do tilts and smashes tommorow if you want? Ill also fix up some recently patched aerials

Edit: Gonna try and start adding each spoiler for each character.

 

[Masonomace]

I'm fine with testing Shulk's tilts & smash attacks. I'll probably do just the first hit of Shulk Down smash though. I'm not really feeling up to testing all five individual hits of Down smash.

 

[Cat8752]

Shadó Chimera / シャドーキメラ Pretty sure freshness bonus was a brawl exclusive.

 

[YoHeKing]

Shadó Chimera / シャドーキメラ Pretty sure freshness bonus was a brawl exclusive.

No. Why do you think Dair does 33% fresh and only does 32% in training mode

 

[Pixel_]

We need to revive this thread because KuroganeHammer now has a fancy calculator: http://kuroganehammer.com/Smash4/Calculator

This means that we don't have to do a ton of testing! All we have to do is plug in a ton of numbers! Yoshi's DJ armor tolerance is 120 units of kb, which you can find on his frame data page.

Also, according to the calculator, there's a difference between Training and VS Mode knockback, which gets bigger depending on the conditions.

Kuroganehammer also says that the calculations come straight from the game code, so it should be accurate, though you might want to test it just in case.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Oh right, while it does come from the game code, the KB calculator doesn't calculate gravity (yet). Not sure how much of a difference that will make to Yoshi, but it's probably the reason why if there's any small differences between in game and the calculator.

We'll be adding gravity support soon(tm)

 

[DJlive]

We need to revive this thread because KuroganeHammer now has a fancy calculator: http://kuroganehammer.com/Smash4/Calculator

This means that we don't have to do a ton of testing! All we have to do is plug in a ton of numbers! Yoshi's DJ armor tolerance is 120 units of kb, which you can find on his frame data page.

Also, according to the calculator, there's a difference between Training and VS Mode knockback, which gets bigger depending on the conditions.

Kuroganehammer also says that the calculations come straight from the game code, so it should be accurate, though you might want to test it just in case.

Want to see the whole list though.

 

[Pixel_]

Want to see the whole list though.

What do you mean by that?

 

[DJlive]

What do you mean by that?

Like all moves that can become 120kb and what percent. Pretty much what we have already but completed.

 

[Pixel_]

Like all moves that can become 120kb and what percent. Pretty much what we have already but completed.

Yeah, that's my point of introducing the calculator. The process of getting the whole list will NOT be a very fast process, but it'll be way faster with the calculator. To do it with a calculator, you still have to put in almost every attribute for the move you're calculating, so it's not like we can just pull a list out of nowhere. I'm planning on working on it (I have a lot of free time, usually), but it'll probably be best to wait until the gravity is added.

 

[Pixel_]

Oh right, while it does come from the game code, the KB calculator doesn't calculate gravity (yet). Not sure how much of a difference that will make to Yoshi, but it's probably the reason why if there's any small differences between in game and the calculator.

We'll be adding gravity support soon™

Used Jigglypuff's Pound (chosen because of its lingering hitbox and other properties, which I might explain later) on Yoshi at 100% on VS mode, and it broke the armor even though it shouldn't have from the calculator. Double checked the numbers and I'm pretty they're correct; the only possible problems are the gravity and the staleness. I heard that unstaled moves do more damage than usual, but idk how to put them in or whatever.
I did the match by setting a handicap on Yoshi, so the only hit that Jigglypuff did on Yoshi was the Pound. Do you know what's wrong?

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Used Jigglypuff's Pound (chosen because of its lingering hitbox and other properties, which I might explain later) on Yoshi at 100% on VS mode, and it broke the armor even though it shouldn't have from the calculator. Double checked the numbers and I'm pretty they're correct; the only possible problems are the gravity and the staleness. I heard that unstaled moves do more damage than usual, but idk how to put them in or whatever.
I did the match by setting a handicap on Yoshi, so the only hit that Jigglypuff did on Yoshi was the Pound. Do you know what's wrong?

you ****ed up somewhere fam

 

[Pixel_]

you ****ed up somewhere fam

I said I left the staleness space empty because idk how to do it
Sooo should I just use the Training Mode KB because it leaves the staleness at 1.00?

EDIT: lol that was a bad question, that's what we've been doing the whole time. I'll work on getting some percentages once I can.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

I said I left the staleness space empty because idk how to do it
Sooo should I just use the Training Mode KB because it leaves the staleness at 1.00?

Training mode KB is still over 120 units though.

 

[Pixel_]

Training mode KB is still over 120 units though.

Use the Training Mode KB when I'm testing out the actual borderline percent that Pound does and doesn't break Yoshi's heavy armor, as well as every other move.
i.e. I'm going to use the KB for Training Mode when I'm compiling my mini lists of borderline percents to put into the big list

As you can tell, this project is going to be very fun.