Yoshi Stage discussion & counterpick thread*#3/4:Smashville and Final Destination*

[hadesblade]

I haven't really tried YI vs mk's. It's just cramped and when shyguys aren't taking your eggs the platform is sloped enough that it will stop the egg. Overall I hate what that stage does to my egg game, so I try to avoid it.

djc egg roll sounds interesting. I'll try it, I've been using reverse egg rolls a lot more now to beat other chars high priority specials. It goes through mk's nado and drill rush, and weegees cyclone to name a couple.

 

[Delta-cod]

His maneuverability is hindered by the platforms. Just camp under one, he can't dair camp in your face with the platforms, so you are safe to egg toss his approaches. If he aproaches with nado, just run back a lil and pivot egg roll across (it beats nado), and camp under the other platform.

The platforms make it easier to pivot grab because he has to stay under them. Grab release->Usmash pretty much every time from there. Anyway, the loss of cg and maneuverability is worth that camping spot at bf. The best thing is, it usually shows up when your striking against mk. They strike fd and sv because of your cg, and you end up with bf. Anyway, I've two stocked mk's there that I lost to on sv/fd.

Just try camping under a platform in a match. No dairs mean mk has no legit approaches.

I love that summary to death. Thank you so much Hades. >_<

Platform Camp like Bowser, lol. Good stuff. I'd like to say that Lylat could also work for these purposes, seeing as how there are three platforms all at the BF platform height, making it easier to camp under a platform at any time. YI may also work, though the Shy Guys and tilt may mess up your eggs, making it not as worthwhile.

 

[Depster]

The lag canceled roll will happen with a reverse or a djc, so I'd rather do it with a reverse since there is no jumping involved.

 

[Deleted member]

DJC is faster (im almost positive), and doesnt a reverse not start at full speed?
W/e, either way works, but egg roll beating tornado is brilliant lol.

 

[Y05H!]

Me thinks we covered most (if not all) aspect's of this map, maybe even BF =P

 

[Bwett]

Do not take MK to battlefield. In order to play properly against MK, you need lots of room and as little platforms as possible. Yoshi's Island is also a bad spot since it screws with your ability to grab, screws with your guaranteed usmash, and has short sides for quick shuttle loop kills. The theory about staying under one platform and camping eggs does not work as you might think. In essence, the platforms just give MK more options. The worst situation you can have against is that he is below you. Because of the cramped space, tornado can work really well at popping you in the air or on a platform. From there, you have little to no time to reach ground and will probably catch any number of aerials to shuttle loop. Don't go to Lylat either for similar reasons, including the ones given for YI.

Stick to long stages with few platforms. This can include FD, SV, and Pictochat. Even Rainbow Cruise and Pokemon Stadium are pretty good stages against MK.

 

[hadesblade]

Do not take MK to battlefield. In order to play properly against MK, you need lots of room and as little platforms as possible. Yoshi's Island is also a bad spot since it screws with your ability to grab, screws with your guaranteed usmash, and has short sides for quick shuttle loop kills. The theory about staying under one platform and camping eggs does not work as you might think. In essence, the platforms just give MK more options. The worst situation you can have against is that he is below you. Because of the cramped space, tornado can work really well at popping you in the air or on a platform. From there, you have little to no time to reach ground and will probably catch any number of aerials to shuttle loop. Don't go to Lylat either for similar reasons, including the ones given for YI.

Stick to long stages with few platforms. This can include FD, SV, and Pictochat. Even Rainbow Cruise and Pokemon Stadium are pretty good stages against MK.

Ok, so I'm going to get shunned for disagreeing with bwett, but the platforms help you a lot more when your grouded then they hurt you once mk gets you in the air.

 

[SOVAman]

Do not take MK to battlefield. In order to play properly against MK, you need lots of room and as little platforms as possible. Yoshi's Island is also a bad spot since it screws with your ability to grab, screws with your guaranteed usmash, and has short sides for quick shuttle loop kills. The theory about staying under one platform and camping eggs does not work as you might think. In essence, the platforms just give MK more options. The worst situation you can have against is that he is below you. Because of the cramped space, tornado can work really well at popping you in the air or on a platform. From there, you have little to no time to reach ground and will probably catch any number of aerials to shuttle loop. Don't go to Lylat either for similar reasons, including the ones given for YI.

Stick to long stages with few platforms. This can include FD, SV, and Pictochat. Even Rainbow Cruise and Pokemon Stadium are pretty good stages against MK.

this except Rainbow cruise

wtf RC i disagree with that

How to beat mk: Hope he doesn't know how to power shield eggs and doesn't know how to spot dodge

 

[Y05H!]

"How to beat mk: Hope he doesn't know how to power shield eggs and doesn't know how to spot dodge."

Well that's not very reassuring, lol

 

[Bwett]

When it comes to platforms, all they do is help MK escape your grabs, which are one of the few things that keep an MK from going punish-free when they are dair camping as well as other tactics. Sure it is slightly harder for them to catch you with a dair under that platform, but the disadvantage you get from it is far greater. You need as much guaranteed damage as possible.

As for RC, I know it sounds crazy, but that stages is mostly aerial dependent and MK has no aerial speed, especially compared to Yoshi. You can run away and throw eggs quite well. Your theory of them being able to power shield and spot dodge doesn't take hold whenever they have to keep jumping from platform to platform. I would say try it out first.

 

[Y05H!]

I'll have to try the RC theory. More air time means more oportunities for him to get underneath ya. Guess if you played it really patiently, even then he's got an advantage during the duration the map is moving sideways, especially on the ship.

 

[SOVAman]

"How to beat mk: Hope he doesn't know how to power shield eggs and doesn't know how to spot dodge."

Well that's not very reassuring, lol

lol i was joking and being unrealistic

 

[hadesblade]

When it comes to platforms, all they do is help MK escape your grabs, which are one of the few things that keep an MK from going punish-free when they are dair camping as well as other tactics. Sure it is slightly harder for them to catch you with a dair under that platform, but the disadvantage you get from it is far greater. You need as much guaranteed damage as possible.

As for RC, I know it sounds crazy, but that stages is mostly aerial dependent and MK has no aerial speed, especially compared to Yoshi. You can run away and throw eggs quite well. Your theory of them being able to power shield and spot dodge doesn't take hold whenever they have to keep jumping from platform to platform. I would say try it out first.

It's *easier* to grab mk under the platforms, and then if you are under the platform when you pivot grab the grab release WILL be in the middle. Then you get your usmash. And you even said it yourself, they can ground release on other stages so the damage isn't guaranteed. Anyway, if your camping in the right spot mk won't land on the platform when you grab him and you will get your usmash. The platforms completely eliminate mk's aerial approaches.

 

[Bwett]

What I'm saying is that the MK has to touch the ground eventually. Typically they will dair til all their jumps are gone, and then they will tornado for a safe landing. When there are no platforms, if you shield it, you are guaranteed a grab if they come too close. However, with BF or YI, they can just land on the platform and start the process all over again. They don't even need to tornado to do so, effectively giving them many more options to choose from. It is in no way easier to grab MK or punish him for anything. Also, since you are in closed quarters, even egg throw becomes risky if they shield it too close to you.

I understand what you are saying. It will be more difficult for him to actually dair camp since you have the platform in the way, but now you effectively remove all options for grabbing since he has a place to hide, namely the platforms. He can still get to you while you're under the platform. It is not guaranteed that you will get a grab if he follows you under. Mostly what happens is you will get the MK too scared to approach you with dair because its hard to dair; possible, but hard. Instead, he will use tornado if he gets close. You won't have the space required to pivot grab properly.

There is no reason you should pick this stage over SV or FD.

Your turn sir =)

 

[hadesblade]

What I'm saying is that the MK has to touch the ground eventually. Typically they will dair til all their jumps are gone, and then they will tornado for a safe landing. When there are no platforms, if you shield it, you are guaranteed a grab if they come too close. However, with BF or YI, they can just land on the platform and start the process all over again. They don't even need to tornado to do so, effectively giving them many more options to choose from. It is in no way easier to grab MK or punish him for anything. Also, since you are in closed quarters, even egg throw becomes risky if they shield it too close to you.

I understand what you are saying. It will be more difficult for him to actually dair camp since you have the platform in the way, but now you effectively remove all options for grabbing since he has a place to hide, namely the platforms. He can still get to you while you're under the platform. It is not guaranteed that you will get a grab if he follows you under. Mostly what happens is you will get the MK too scared to approach you with dair because its hard to dair; possible, but hard. Instead, he will use tornado if he gets close. You won't have the space required to pivot grab properly.

There is no reason you should pick this stage over SV or FD.

Your turn sir =)

Even with more places to hide, mk still will have to approach you. It doesn't matter how long hes jumping in the air, he will eventually have to approach. If they use all their jumps and land on the platform... so what? It's not hurting you any.

If metaknight is getting close enough, so that if he starts nadoing you won't be able to pivot grab, then you should of already grabbed or uair/smashed him back out. And thats no different from what happens at fd or sv. bf he just has to go around the platforms too. I don't see how that helps him approach you compared to you other stages.

Once your in close quarters on a flat stage, it pretty much the same as on bf, except he loses the option to dair camp in your face, because of the platforms. If he dairs below the platform the next jump will either put him above it, or he will land on the ground before he jumps again. The addition of platforms do not give him any more approach options. They may let him aircamp a little bit longer, but you can still sh uair and usmash through the two bottom ones, and egg toss, will not have trouble hitting the whole stage.

 

[Shiri]

May I interject? I'm not taking one side over the other (in fact, I'm enjoying just reading this)...

...but I do have a question for hadesblade.

A good portion of your argument rests on the tenet that "Meta Knight is forced to approach." As Devil's advocate, I'm going to ask what happens in a tournament situation where Meta Knight has used his superior abilities as a character to rack up a percentage lead of perhaps 30% (something out of the scope of a lucky move closing the gap, for the sake of argument). It seems that in a timed environment, your argument seems to lose quite a bit of its stability. I'm wondering if you can expound on this, if you will.

 

[hadesblade]

May I interject? I'm not taking one side over the other (in fact, I'm enjoying just reading this)...

...but I do have a question for hadesblade.

A good portion of your argument rests on the tenet that "Meta Knight is forced to approach." As Devil's advocate, I'm going to ask what happens in a tournament situation where Meta Knight has used his superior abilities as a character to rack up a percentage lead of perhaps 30% (something out of the scope of a lucky move closing the gap, for the sake of argument). It seems that in a timed environment, your argument seems to lose quite a bit of its stability. I'm wondering if you can expound on this, if you will.

In all honesty, even if mk is jumping around the platforms, he isn't invincible or anything. He has limited jumps, if he is landing on the lower two platforms, you can run under them and usmash, even mk has a few frames of landing lag. Predict where hes going to land and usmash it. You don't even have to worry about nado if hes landing on a platform. That makes his aircamping *worse* than it is on fd.

On bf you have just as many options as you do on a lot of stages. It's easier to hit him with eggs than it is on fd. And if hes above you then he has less options.

If you can't land an usmash, or get a few eggs that make up the % difference, or even say hes a stock ahead, so no matter how many eggs you hit him with they just don't have ko power. You can always jump up and uair him. Uair outranges everything mk has below him.

Air camping is not like planking, it's easily punished, and we have a good enough moveset to punish it.

Also, fd is the same thing isn't it? Except mk will be grounded if he wants to when you approach, so he has everything from the air, except a shield, a spotdodge, and extremely fast tilts and dsmash. Say he gets a 30% lead at fd... and decides he doesn't want to approach. Its essentially the same situation. The platforms don't make aircamping any better really. He's still punished by the same things he is for aircamping anywhere else.

 

[Deleted member]

Hmm dunno, I kinda think BF is better than FD becaause:
1. The dair camping is as hades said, less effective, and not only does being on a platform make MK succeptible to attacks, but because BF is so small, you can pretty much punish him anytime he tries to land on the ground with nado with egg roll, whereas on FD, he can pressure you in your shield then retreat to the very other side of the stage.
2. Easier kills. Self explainitory. A defensive MK can live for a very long time, especially if they are not letting themselves get grabbed. We lose the guaranteed usmash some of the time, but we gain much easier uairs, plus other stuffz.

Thats why it would be better than FD. SV is a little different because its small enough that he cant go out of the range of eggs, while still big enough that we can abuse our space, we get the guarenteed usmash out of release all the time, and theres no gay edges like FD.

Hmmm, i guess its just preference.

 

[Bwett]

I think one of the main problems I have with your argument is that on BF, eggs are punishable...extremely punishable. You don't have enough distance between you and MK to really make a strong wall with even one egg. If you are one side and he is either in the middle or closer, if he shields the egg, you will be punished.

I also think that you are underestimating the strengths of dair and the speed of MK in general. The situation of dair vs our usmash is a bit tricky. I'm not sure which beats which, but I know that if you don't predict the dair and activate yours many frames before his, you will be punished. Furthermore, odds are, MK will go alittle more aggressive on BF because he has many more options to choose from. If he really wants to, he can get to you before you can get out two eggs, guaranteed, even possibly before you can get out the first.

Now, let's say that your strategy does work. MK stops dair camping. Then what? Your strategy relies on the fact that you force MK to become grounded and use eggs to force an approach and pivot grab to stop his approach. This is the main strategy against MK and extremely strong when you know how to use it. However, the main power of the pivot grab is the fact that you have room behind you to retreat if he predicts it. If he runs up, power shields the egg, and continues to rush at you, what options do you have as Yoshi? You have egglay, pivot grab, or maybe an attack. If he spotdodges, then you are screwed.

So then it becomes a game of rock paper scissors. However, each time you guess wrong, you are pushed closer to the edge. At that point, you are basically forced to jump, the worst option that you have because you can be punished easily when he is too close.

Now I know, typically on FD and SV, you would have the same rock paper scissors with a few different options, and indeed you would be pushed back if you lose. However, the spacing of the rock paper scissors game on those two stages is much large than on BF. You have more room to stay away from MK, and you also have the option of jumping without getting punished because of the more room. In terms of spacing, picture BF as having the same spacing of FD or SV, but it decreases proportionally. In general, the closer MK is to you, the worse off you are.

Right now, I'll go ahead and address some specific things in some of the arguments I see.

BF makes it easier to hit with eggs:
You don't have enough spacing to throw more than one egg, if that, against a MK before he gets too close.

Air camping is not like planking, it's easily punished, and we have a good enough moveset to punish it:
I agree, therefore, why should we need to go to a smaller stage with platforms to get rid of air camping and dair camping when we can just as easily go to a larger stage with guaranteed usmashes and better spacing options.

Because BF is so small, you can pretty much punish him anytime he tries to land on the ground with nado with egg roll, whereas on FD, he can pressure you in your shield then retreat to the very other side of the stage:
Whoever has the faster attacks on a smaller stage will win. Why would you want to create a close range fight, when your mid-range and long-range are amazing and MK's mid-range is okay and long range sucks. Furthermore, if he did pressure your shield then retreat to the other side of the stage, what has that accomplished. Your shield has lessened and now you can throw more eggs and start over. He does no damage and you have possible damage. You win that situation.

A defensive MK can live for a very long time, especially if they are not letting themselves get grabbed. We lose the guaranteed usmash some of the time, but we gain much easier uairs:
MK typically only kills horizontally. BF has shorter sides with a shuttle loop that could kill you extremely early. You have the possibility of dying as low as 60-70% depending on where they catch you with shuttle loop, probably with an average of 110% if you are doing good. You can probably kill MK on that stage at roughly 90-100%. On FD, you have the possibility of living to 180-200% while MK is still capped pretty low at 120-130%, even still with a possibility of killing him as low as 90-100%. Unlike MK, Yoshi has the ability to, when he gets a grab, place MK wherever he wants. Usmash doesn't kill from the center? Let's move it to the edge and it will.

Because its small enough that he cant go out of the range of eggs:
On FD, you can't run away from eggs. It's one of the few projectiles that CANNOT be avoided. Even planking except for G&W is at risk of getting hit.

 

[Deleted member]

GG
To be honest all my arguments were theory craft, i never go BF against meta knight, but i figured it was worth a try, especially since against like tyrant i do really poorly on FD. I was just thinking why it would be a decent stage.

Bwettt post more your posts are good =D

 

[Teh Future]

dont counterpick pictochat.... high ceiling ftw, mk would probably live longer than you lol

 

[Delta-cod]

Picto gives you more room to run away, so it's easier to play defensively. Also, the long stage allows the CG to have more of an effect. It balances out with the high ceiling, I say.

 

[hadesblade]

I still don't see how bf is any worse off then fd. Lets take the example mk is grounded, under the platform across the stage from you. You throw an egg. He won't have time to run across the stage, avoid the egg, and punish you for it. Mk is fast. Hes not sonic. He can't get run across the stage in time to punish the ending lag of the egg. Even if he power shields it on the way. BF is not that small. It's small, but not small enough to run across in ending lag of an egg toss.

You mentioned aircamping. How mk is better at it on bf than on fd. Then you said mk is more aggressive at bf.

Now, for each individual point.

1.You don't have enough spacing to throw more than one egg, if that, against a MK before he gets too close.

You have the space to throw one egg... he approaches, with his limited options because of the platforms. The idea is to punish his approaches. Throwing an egg helps him approach. It's not punishable if you aren't spamming it, and you are a decent distance away from him.

2.I agree, therefore, why should we need to go to a smaller stage with platforms to get rid of air camping and dair camping when we can just as easily go to a larger stage with guaranteed usmashes and better spacing options.

You can't just lump air camping and dair camping together. They are completely different. bf doesn't really make air camping much difference. Mk is just jumping around the platforms instead of giant stage. It does, however, make dair camping impossible under the platforms. Dair camping and air camping aren't the same thing.

3.Whoever has the faster attacks on a smaller stage will win. Why would you want to create a close range fight, when your mid-range and long-range are amazing and MK's mid-range is okay and long range sucks. Furthermore, if he did pressure your shield then retreat to the other side of the stage, what has that accomplished. Your shield has lessened and now you can throw more eggs and start over. He does no damage and you have possible damage. You win that situation.

Whoever has the faster attacks on a smaller stage will win. So then why do we discuss bf and YI seperate? They are both small stages. If it's really that simple, then why are bowser and ganon good at bf? Why is snake good at battlefield? Its not that simple. There is a lot more to it then stage size.

Furthermore, a smaller stage also doesn't mean its easier to get from point A to point B. Sure dashing along the ground on a smaller stage is faster... but if you dash across the bottom of the stage every time you approach... well... your predictable. Dash attack, dash grab, fair, and nair all are beat by a simple pivot grab, which, if yoshi pivot grabs under the platform, the usmash will happen, and mk will be back in the air. Where we throw more eggs tell he is approaching or grounded. Mk has less approach options, and yoshi still punishes just as hard.

If your in your shield against mk... then good luck getting to the other side of fd... in your perfect fd situation, mk hits your shield... then waits for you to run across fd. That isn't going to happen.

4.MK typically only kills horizontally. BF has shorter sides with a shuttle loop that could kill you extremely early. You have the possibility of dying as low as 60-70% depending on where they catch you with shuttle loop, probably with an average of 110% if you are doing good. You can probably kill MK on that stage at roughly 90-100%. On FD, you have the possibility of living to 180-200% while MK is still capped pretty low at 120-130%, even still with a possibility of killing him as low as 90-100%. Unlike MK, Yoshi has the ability to, when he gets a grab, place MK wherever he wants. Usmash doesn't kill from the center? Let's move it to the edge and it will.

The blast zones of bf are the same distance from the ledge as the blast zones on fd from the ledge. The stage is smaller. On fd do you generally fight in the middle of the stage? You can't camp fd in the middle. Your towards the sides of the stage there too. You are just as close to the blast zones there as you are at the side of bf.

5.On FD, you can't run away from eggs. It's one of the few projectiles that CANNOT be avoided. Even planking except for G&W is at risk of getting hit.

Um... you can run away from anything. Even if you get hit by it you can still run from it. But the point is, its not like bf helps mk avoid eggs. Sure he can jump around with his airdodges, but its not any better for mk than it is anywhere else. He jumps around just as good at fd as he does at bf. Neither place will have a safe spot for him to avoid the eggs.

 

[Metatitan]

LMAO we gots ourselves another Mmac on our hands.

 

[Delta-cod]

LMAO we gots ourselves another Mmac on our hands.

That was quite unnecessary for the debate. I've gone through this before, but I'll post it here for everyone to see.

Theories are good unless it's blatantly obvious they are wrong. Theories need to be put to the test, just like scientific ones. I've been following this debate, and I've found that Hades presents interesting ideas. People say they know the MU inside and out. However, I have yet to see ONE Yoshi play like Hades is describing on BF. If anyone has done so and has video proof, please present it. If not, don't bag on the idea. I, personally, would like to test this out in friendlies when I get to a smashfest.

Also, this debate should NOT lead into flames and separate the Yoshi board. People need to chill (you know who you are). Bwett and Hades shouldn't really respond to any post that doesn't bring up relevant posts to their arguments.

 

[VSC.D-Torr]

Chill like me

I'm as cool as ice

 

[Y05H!]

Rather interesting debate. I'm gonna have to try some of these myself.

 

[NinjaFoxX]

im going to begin updating with the data so far...


this battlefield debate it quite intresting, do go on...xD

 

[.Marik]

Battlefield ***** and allows Yoshi to make his aerials convenient and effective.

Since the platforms exist, egg throwing comes in handy, and Yoshi's can set up base underneath them throwing eggs upwords and following them into aerial attacks or sliding UpSmash combos. Being underneath opponents gives Yoshi a lot of opportunities and options.

FSmash also works well for me on Battlefield as well. I f*cking love Battlefield, it's currently my favourite stage. If you camp and space well, and can punish and set up combos effectively, this stage is like heaven.

There's a lot more options regarding what Yoshi can implement, which is why I find it's a tad better than Final Destination.

Specifically regarding MetaKnight, we'll get punished on almost any neutral stage, but I personally find I have a lot more safer defensive options on Battlefield.

Rainbow Cruise. CP in Tournaments now.

 

[SOVAman]

lmao We Gots Ourselves Another Mmac On Our Hands.

lmf ao

 

[Bwett]

For the most part, it looks like the conversation has come to a stand still. You have your opinion, and I have mine. Your strategy is sound and might work well, but I believe it to be stronger on a bigger stage with less platforms.

I suppose we will see what works =)

 

[NinjaFoxX]

of course when it comes to BF you could always apply it to other characters(like marf)

speaking of, what other character would it be ok to take here

 

[Depster]

Just gonna throw out there... do NOT take Samus to BF =S Up and zair work wonders there...

 

[NinjaFoxX]

update for lulz...

 

[Delta-cod]

Yay, cuz I had little to say about BF. =[

Okay. Both stages are pretty much the same. Flat stages are love for Yoshi. Easier to grab, easier to use eggs, more space to use. The only thing SV has that FD doesn't is the moving platform, which can be used to recover. It can also mess up some grab releases, but that's okay.

Both of these stages are preferred neutrals for Yoshi against every character, it seems. Yoshi loves his flat stages.

 

[bigman40]

Mmmmkay. Since I'm not in the feeling for brawl right now (or for a little while), I'll start posting information that I learned from playing Yoshi. So, expect little information each night.


....Zuzuzu....

 

[Depster]

SV seems to be the place to take snake for me. The stage is so small that snake never has the chance to do a lot of grenade stuff due to eggs since they'll explode in his hand. That really is the only major benefit I can think of, that we can hit people anywhere on SV, but we really don't have many huge disadvantages besides chaingrabs being randomly screwed up.

 

[NinjaFoxX]

is it me, or is taking a Sonic to FD/SV a bad idea? it really makes it hard to pin him down,grabbing helps but...

 

[Delta-cod]

Iunno. I'd say Sonic does worse on stages with platforms since he can possibly get stuck up on them. I believe flat, open stages benefit his spindash game. Should I ask the Sonics?

 

[Y05H!]

From my experiences, the only times I've had huge trouble with Sonic was on FD. Pretty difficult to keep your spacing when he can get to any section of the stage in less then a second.