Yoshi Moveset Discussion: Fair

[Airborne]

if ally can find uses for snake's fair against m2k, i'm sure we can find use for yoshi's fair against good players. we just need to master the spacing and be able to punish with it like ike. =P

 

[Metatitan]

m2k messed up big by going in the water and ally capitalized on that situation with fair. hence it was used when an opponent made a mistake, hence our fair is only useful for when they make a mistake

 

[Frown]

I tend to use it combined with a double jump while recovering from below.

EDIT: Spelled "jump" "hump"

 

[JOE!]

I tend to use it combined with a double jump while recovering from below.

EDIT: Spelled "jump" "hump"

yeah, travelling Fair is beast, ive gotten countless kills off people trying to go out and gimp me...only to be spiked

 

[Slice~]

i´ve found a combo (yep, a real one), which ends with a fair
it kills at ~70% (depending on the char)
shorthop bair-> DJ -> F Air
works really nice near the edge

is it new, or allready known?

 

[bigman40]

i´ve found a combo (yep, a real one), which ends with a fair
it kills at ~70% (depending on the char)
shorthop bair-> DJ -> F Air
works really nice near the edge

is it new, or allready known?

I knew it, kinda hard to land since if they're watching, they can AD it. But on unsuspecting people, it works wonders.

 

[Metatitan]

I knew it, kinda hard to land since if they're watching, they can AD it. But on unsuspecting people, it works wonders.

Fair generally only works on unsuspecting people

 

[bigman40]

Fair generally only works on unsuspecting people

Uh...been knew that....Why quote me? >____>

 

[Poltergust]

Hm, can't we use Yoshi's f-air like Peach's f-air? I believe that they both have the same range and almost the same amount of frames. It also auto-cancels well. We can use it as a spacing move like Peach does. =O

 

[Yosheon]

That's what I usually do with it, but it's not that safe.

 

[auroreon]

Hm, can't we use Yoshi's f-air like Peach's f-air? I believe that they both have the same range and almost the same amount of frames. It also auto-cancels well. We can use it as a spacing move like Peach does. =O

Same spacing pretty much but Peaches is a MUCH more viable option... its just better in almost every aspect. Her floating makes it far more viable and less punishable, it has far better KO potential and I'm pretty sure its faster.

 

[bigman40]

Hm, can't we use Yoshi's f-air like Peach's f-air? I believe that they both have the same range and almost the same amount of frames. It also auto-cancels well. We can use it as a spacing move like Peach does. =O

Well lets look at the differences of them:

Peach's Fair:
Disjointed
Completely autocancels into jabs. Therefore you have no time to get grabbed
Kills when not stale
Big range

Alright, now lets look at Yoshi's Fair:
Not Disjointed (possibly barely disjointed)
Autocancels after a certain amount. If missed then we're stuck in lag for 15 frames (more than enough time to react if they're quick enough).
Medium-small range
Killing move when unsweetspotted. Decent spike when sweetspotted

The main difference is the fact that we don't have the range and that we don't have the amount of disjointed-ness to make this move a valuable method of spacing like peach (remember, they constantly use it to space). Not only that, but our window is small to where if we time the attack too quickly, then Mario can walk right under us (and you know what that means for characters smaller than Mario).

But hell, it's worth ****ing around. As no one probably has put in any serious time to see what it can be done with, or found out why Fair can beat Bowser's Fair/Yoshi's Bair/etc. If we can figure out some other stuff about it, then maybe we can come to some conclusions about how to use it.

 

[Metatitan]

peach's Fair can also kill when stale a little.

 

[cellphone]

short hop fair...has a no lag approach

 

[EdreesesPieces]

Hm, can't we use Yoshi's f-air like Peach's f-air? I believe that they both have the same range and almost the same amount of frames. It also auto-cancels well. We can use it as a spacing move like Peach does. =O

Actually this is actually what I do. Empty Fair (to bait) then land and pivot grab. It's TOO good. It's not as good as it is for Peach's fair bait to F-smash, but it's a worthy tactic against people who bite a lot. Particularly, egg throw --> forward air the spot the egg explodes. Because you missed two attacks, for some reason it's their reaction to try to punish you. But if you space it right you have a good chance of them falling into your pivot grab since the egg toss to f-air had no lag.

 

[Chaco]

Are you doing that with a softer tossed egg?

 

[EdreesesPieces]

Yeah, exactly. It's not at the exact same time. The egg explodes, then a little bit later I come in with the fair.

*Note: this strategy doesn't work on bad players. It assumes they are smart enough to realize that you are trying to remove their approach from the air, so they take a ground approach. Bad players aren't thinking clear so they will just jump anyway, making smarter baiting tactics near useless.

 

[Chaco]

That was pretty funny Edrees.

 

[EdreesesPieces]

Hahaha it's true! ;D

 

[Metatitan]

^
it is true, one of my friends plays horribly, he cant space and it throws me off cuz im not used to playing someone who cant space xD

 

[Airborne]

^ maybe that's why i'm always going even with my friend who you guys are always saying is horrible yet i can basically run with the top contenders around kentucky, and getting somewhat close to being able to go to a largescale mw tourny and being to place decently.

 

[EdreesesPieces]

One of the toughest skills to have once you elevate your game is to still be able to beat players who aren't that good. That's why you see people beating someone really good then losing to a random the same tournament.

 

[Airborne]

so do you think i should be able to 3-stock my friend who doesn't play brawl anymore before i can actually beat a top level midwest player?

 

[auroreon]

I always thought it was strange that I sometimes have more trouble with scrubs doing silly things than the top players in my region. I never really thought of it that way... I just always thought I was strange and could play better when I was fighting better opponants, this explains it lol.

 

[Chaco]

That happens to me a lot, I'll beat someone really pretty good....then lose to some scrub. Lol, fun stuff.

 

[EdreesesPieces]

so do you think i should be able to 3-stock my friend who doesn't play brawl anymore before i can actually beat a top level midwest player?

Not really. It's hard to 3 stock anybody in Brawl. The game does everything in it's power to prevent it. I woudln't worry about it =) As long as he can't beat you LOL.

 

[Shiri]

I've been meaning to make another strategy thread and have it centered around Yomi, but just haven't.

This discussion is prompting me to make it so we can discuss important strategic aspects of Yomi and how it applies to Yoshi as a character.

So yeah, forward air. It ties with a lot of things. Like Gordo (still happy about that). Also the combo that Slice posted can be turned from a pseudo-combo into an actual combo by linking a neutral air after the turnaround double jump. It actually works and one of my videos v. Snake in the video thread on Lylat Cruise has a demonstration of it.

Rising forward air offstage is a great scare tactic. The way Yoshi's double jump moves can really freak even some good players out when they're not used to it and putting a forward air in there to try and force airdodges or premature recoveries is great. Even against players experienced in the ways of the double jump, forward air forces your opponent to make a choice, which is always a good thing for Yoshi: Take the meteor? Take a gamble and hope for the horizontal trajectory hit? Dodge and recover behind Yoshi? Dodge and try to gimp while recovering? Recover before he can hit me? Forcing your opponent to make choices instead of letting them breeze to the edge is just another mild pressure tactic you can use to your advantage, even if it is only slight.

Saying forward aerial only "works" on unsuspecting opponents is a pretty blanket statement, but can apply easily to lower levels of play. Higher level Yomi with good mixups has many opportunities to use forward air to force reactions and not necessarily to meteor for a KO, in places like Edrees' example, for instance.

That being said, there are safer offstage options, but forward and down aerial are among the more threatening, with forward air forcing the most thought in response, being the safest, and having the most overall impact.

 

[Chaco]

I still wanna know if a mis-hit fair has more killing potential. Since it does more damage.