Yoshi Discussion

[Dingus]

I think utilt...probably comes out in time? Maybe not. your fastest option's prolly jab so if they're like 2% away from breaking (rare) that's prolly your best bet theoretically. Doubt that would come up though.

I assumed utilt would be the best option, but it seems people can usually roll out of that. I dont think it actually combos. I could just be doing it poorly though.

 

[Dingus]

God damn it. Practicing these yoshi shield breaks is making me crazy. I can hit djc f-air->djc n-air->dsmash every time (which of course doesnt break), but hitting two djc n-air in a row is total fail.

After the first n-air I can barely get off the ground before they come out of shield stun. It seems like I either do the n-air to fast and nothing comes out or im way too slow.

Maybe I am doing the first n-air too high, which isnt giving me enough time to do the second one. I dont know. Any help is appreciated, although I recognize that no one probably can help. Mostly Im just venting.

 

[SheerMadness]

You have to nair into them.

Which means you can't just jump straight up, nair, and come back down. You have to djc nair so that you're moving horizontally into them. That increases shield stun.

Go into training mode and practice getting horizontal movement with your djc nairs.

 

[The Star King]

That doesn't increase shieldstun Sheer. lol.

But he is right, you should do that because they'll get pushed away (unless they are up against a wall)

As for not being fast enough for two nairs, I am willing to bet you are doing the nairs too high (I used to have this problem). If you are doing nairs fast enough you should be able to link a few nairs on Falcon at 0% like so

 

[SheerMadness]

If you're weak nairing their shield (with the tip of yoshi's feet) I'm pretty sure it's less shield stun. And typically that's what happens when people are trying to learn to shield break. Cause their opponent gets further away and they're still djc'ing in the same place.

That's always been my observation. But I dunno I've never been one to study the technical aspects of this game. I just rely on my observations.

 

[The Star King]

OK I misunderstood you. Weak nair definitely has less shield stun yeah.

 

[Dingus]

Thanks guys. Ill go practice that falcon combo then. Pray for me.

 

[TANK64]

What Battle cow said. Utilt works, and I've seen lots of people use jabs and had success.

Actually happened to Sheer yesterday. I pretty sure he uptilted.

Rising aerial? Dropping through plat aerial?

Timing isn't THAT tight for nairs btw... once you gets used to it. It's far from frame perfect.

 

[Komotonoto]

Yoshi's too good.

 

[Dingus]

Thanks all. Getting horizontal momentum on the n-airs seems to really help. I can't do it consistently, but I was able to get a few breaks yesterday when I practiced.

 

[clubbadubba]

Yoshi vs Pikachu, how to win as yoshi? Can't really figure out how to approach or defend, which makes it kinda tough to do anything really

For approach vs most characters I'm usually able to throw out a nair and go in at the right timing, but pikachu seems to always have a hitbox out no matter what and that hitbox always seems to have better priority. Only way I can really find to get inside is to do dash attacks lol, but somehow I don't think that's high level strategy.

For defense.... I don't even know, what can I do? A well timed utilt (my favorite move!) is pretty good vs a lot of characters if you can read your opponent, but again pika's hitboxes are a ***** and seem to hit me more often than not when I try that. All of my aerials seem to get beat no matter how well timed or spaced they are. I've tried some falcon/kirby type tactics with pivot grab/dtilt (the pivot dtilt actually can work pretty well against other characters I've found), but nothing seems to work with any consistency.

What options do I have in terms of both approaching and defending?

I should say that I probably under utilize bair as yoshi, mainly due to the fact that I find it a bit difficult to do a DJC bair without turning around. Very doable, I just haven't put in the time to really get it down consistently enough to be comfortable with. Could be why I can't do **** vs Pika.

 

[SSBPete]

dash attacks are great but your best option is approaching with bair. practice djc bair until you get it down perfectly but until then sh bair works wonders as well. mix it up.

utilt does work effectively for defence if you get the timing down. it can also lead to easy tech chase combos, especially on DL because of the platforms.

if you want to invest a lot of time into Yoshi, then learn parry upsmash. probably the best possible defensive tool at his disposal.

nairs are great for continuing combos and catching pika off guard but generally you will get torn apart by pikas utilt since it has priority.


watch some prince videos. there are lots of him vs pika all over youtube. he is fantastic against good pikas. you can learn lots from just a few of them. here is my fave:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DTQpR-AqKnM

 

[clubbadubba]

Sigh, I was afraid of that. I'm not a very technical player by nature and it takes me a long time to develop tech skills since I don't enjoy practicing by myself. Guess I'll work on those djc bairs. Parry upsmash?!?!?!? I'd never get that down, too hard.

Spoiler

parry is the single most broken thing in this game. Too good.

 

[The Star King]

I don't like nair in this MU either. Try to DJC fair as Pikachu lands, or if he likes to utilt immediately after landing (Battlecow ), wait for that and fair afterwards (jump to bait it out, pause, then go in) (a good tactic against Pika utilt anti-air attempts in general, wait for it). Dash attack is good to plow through low aerials like usual, but I think Pika uair might be one of the few aerials that will beat it... that move is crazy. But I think it works vs bair

I don't think bair is that good if you are in a position to pick and choose your options because fairs feels roughly equal in priority and speed and it usually leads to higher punishment

Learning to parry will not make or break this MU (or most MUs, it's a bit overrated by theorycrafters who don't understand its weaknesses) so you can leave it out if you really don't want to learn it (parry Usmash will do nothing against spaced Pika bair or uair...). Defensive options, IDK, just space with aerials and try not to be too close to Pika in neutral game. I don't separate offense and defense in my mind like that. A good offense will be good defense.

utilt -> pivot downB is a true combo in this MU

Sheer style nair -> shorthop fair KO on a tech is always good (need to start doing this more instead of fairing techs...)

 

[clubbadubba]

Yea definitely haven't mastered the wait and bait game, mostly because I can't control yoshi that well, but I am aware of the tactic, as sheer used to and probably still does **** my falcon with it.

Parry usmash might be useless in that situation, but parry ftilt or dtilt? Too good.

Did not know about utilt -> pivot downB, that's awesome.

Whenever I try to "space with aerials," pikachu will just come at me with aerials and outpriotize me so my spacing is pretty vain. Should I be able to ward pika off with my aerials?

Does fair have as much range as bair?

 

[The Star King]

Parry tilt sounds like it would be too slow for a guaranteed punish unless you do parry djl, which I have never seen anyone utilize (but I'm planning to learn it eventually on controller...?) If I got a parry I would probably just djc fair moving forward, which would reach any amount of fade away. He *might* be able to land and shield in time, but that's obviously still bad for him. I guess he could get away with his frame 1 invincible up-B... ****ing Pikachu. That's something almost nobody would do in that situation though (I just know... I know how the community plays as a whole. lol)

IDK the spacing is hard to describe in words. It is true directly challenging Pika's aerials with yours is probably not a good idea. You have to, like, try to stay out of Pika's range when he is in a position to attack you, then go in when he is transitioning into a more vulnerable state (like I said, I like to threaten him when he is landing...)

Fair I think has ~equal range, but I think it might have slightly less "priority" (basically meaning it's less disjointed). But if that's true it doesn't feel like a big deal to me because you will be losing in the disjointed game anyways. In other words, out-reaching his hitboxes with your aerials is not how you're gonna be getting your first hits in this MU, so eh, I prefer fair for the higher punishment.

 

[M!nt]

everything in life can be solved by parry uptilt

 

[ballin4life]

Yoshi vs Pikachu, how to win as yoshi? Can't really figure out how to approach or defend, which makes it kinda tough to do anything really

For approach vs most characters I'm usually able to throw out a nair and go in at the right timing, but pikachu seems to always have a hitbox out no matter what and that hitbox always seems to have better priority. Only way I can really find to get inside is to do dash attacks lol, but somehow I don't think that's high level strategy.

For defense.... I don't even know, what can I do? A well timed utilt (my favorite move!) is pretty good vs a lot of characters if you can read your opponent, but again pika's hitboxes are a ***** and seem to hit me more often than not when I try that. All of my aerials seem to get beat no matter how well timed or spaced they are. I've tried some falcon/kirby type tactics with pivot grab/dtilt (the pivot dtilt actually can work pretty well against other characters I've found), but nothing seems to work with any consistency.

What options do I have in terms of both approaching and defending?

I should say that I probably under utilize bair as yoshi, mainly due to the fact that I find it a bit difficult to do a DJC bair without turning around. Very doable, I just haven't put in the time to really get it down consistently enough to be comfortable with. Could be why I can't do **** vs Pika.

I feel like you should be able to DJCC through Pika's defensive moves if you're at low percents. Dash attack is pretty good too.

To do DJC bair I think the trick is to do jump -> jump -> press back -> press a. If you're turning around then you're doing jump -> press back -> jump -> press a. Off the top of my head I think that's the trick anyway.

One thing is that you don't have to DJC all your aerials. You can mix it up between short hop full hop and DJC (or do a regular jump then DJCC through whatever move they throw out if you're at low percent)

Also parry is pretty good for defense

 

[SheerMadness]

Hmmm a lot of people can't DJC bair for some reason. It's essential you learn how to. It's one of his best moves IMO. I use it just as much as any other aerial.

It allows you to attack while retreating, which is huge. It's also fast and good for horizontal combos. Definitely one of the top ways to attack a Pikachu.

I'm pretty good vs Pika. I beat banze in tourney (close set though, he's quite good vs Yoshi), didn't lose to Kefit once all weekend, and generally beat all Pikachus.

I mix up my approaches 5 ways. DJC bair, fair, nair, dash attack, and neutral b. Nair is obviously dangerous, but definitely ok to throw out once in a while if you mix up it's timing with DJC. Neutral b is great vs more defensive Pikas. The other 3 are my main approaches vs Pika.

Crouch walk every once in a while to confuse the **** out of them. And just be as unpredictable as possible.

All you have to do is get in. Once you're in on any character Yoshi has the best pressure and tech chasing in the game.

 

[M!nt]

once you learn it though, don't spam it crazily like i do

 

[clubbadubba]

okay i guess I'll get used to bair stuff. Its not that I can't do it, its that in order to do it consistently I have to focus a fair amount. So I usually decide to be lazy and just avoid doing it instead of focusing. Gotta get it to be second nature.

I don't think I'll ever be able to parry consistently though. That'll probably limit my yoshi in the long run unfortunately.

 

[The Star King]

Why do you think that?

 

[clubbadubba]

Not sure which statement you're referring to.

If that =

I don't think I'll ever be able to parry consistently though.

then because I don't have the focus to learn individual specific techs like parry.

if that =

That'll probably limit my yoshi in the long run unfortunately.

Because parry is an advanced tech that when applied properly can be the best option for yoshi in certain situations. I know I can be GOOD without parrying, but I would undoubtedly be BETTER if I learned how and when to parry. Thus, I would be limited.

 

[ballin4life]

Well for starters just shield every time you jump grab or usmash. That will get you parrying lots of stuff off the bat.

 

[SheerMadness]

^ Grab too even though it's not used much.

But yah if you just hit shield right before every time you jump, upsmash, and grab you'll get a bunch of parries without even doing it intentionally.

Learning to parry really isn't that hard. Every time you play against a Link or Mario online just take a little time to try and parry their projectiles. If you do that you'll get it in no time.

 

[The Star King]

Not sure which statement you're referring to.

If that =

then because I don't have the focus to learn individual specific techs like parry.

if that =

Because parry is an advanced tech that when applied properly can be the best option for yoshi in certain situations. I know I can be GOOD without parrying, but I would undoubtedly be BETTER if I learned how and when to parry. Thus, I would be limited.

I was asking about the first one. I don't think anybody is incapable of learning to parry, unless you don't have hands or something.

How much focus do you believe one needs? I don't think you need much. 5-10 minutes a day practice before bed would be enough to get the muscle memory down in like maybe a week at most. Then you can try it occasionally vs people in matches, and you'll find yourself it doing it fairly often in no time.

I have really bad motivation issues IRL, but I still learned to parry. So if my dopamine levels are enough yours are too ;P

 

[Dingus]

How much focus do you believe one needs? I don't think you need much. 5-10 minutes a day practice before bed would be enough to get the muscle memory down in like maybe a week at most. Then you can try it occasionally vs people in matches, and you'll find yourself it doing it fairly often in no time.

I dont think muscle memory is the problem. To me the challenge is the timing and reflexes, since you you have a very small frame window. That is much harder to practice.

 

[SheerMadness]

Remembering to hit Z before every time you jump, grab, or upsmash can be tough.

It can take a while to get the muscle memory down for that. But yah that part isn't "hard", it just takes time to get into the habit.

If you really want to learn matchups you'll play Yoshi 90% of the time for a long period of time. I played almost only Yoshi (tiny bit of fox too) for literally YEARS online. IMO that's why I know match ups so well and don't struggle vs characters like Pikachu. Years and years of trial and error vs him.

 

[SSBPete]

Fair gets beaten by utilt, that's why you should use more bair to approach. You want to tick them with the farthest end of the bair hitbox so learn the hitbox sizes. If you're certain you can land a hit, then fair.

 

[The Star King]

I dont think muscle memory is the problem. To me the challenge is the timing and reflexes, since you you have a very small frame window. That is much harder to practice.

I don't think the timing is that bad. But yeah you have to predict your opponent and this community sux at reading so I guess that could be an issue :S

Maybe learning to parry is also a good exercise in reading?

If you really want to learn matchups you'll play Yoshi 90% of the time for a long period of time.

Nah

Fair gets beaten by utilt, that's why you should use more bair to approach. You want to tick them with the farthest end of the bair hitbox so learn the hitbox sizes. If you're certain you can land a hit, then fair.

Bair gets beaten by utilt as much as fair does...

 

[AtotheZ]

Bair gets beaten by utilt as much as fair does...

not as much

 

[The Star King]

As much or very close

Sangoku?

 

[SheerMadness]

I agree bair is probably the best/safest approach against Pika.

 

[clubbadubba]

lol as soon as you said earlier that bair and fair have very similar range I looked up sangoku to try and find the hitbox data stuff. Found it, but yoshi bair and fair are missing so no resolution. I've always thought bair outranged fair, and even a slight difference in range is vital in this game

 

[AtotheZ]

bair comes out faster, you can do the double jump cancel for both moves at a relatively low height but if you don't time the fair right, you'll hear yoshi do his cry but it won't hit because the hitbox isn't out yet (or hasn't reached in front of him).

it's also the fact that bair hits at the side and will hit their body first while fair will hit their head. Bair can out range pika's uptilt from the side, as long as he isn't approaching from above.

 

[Sangoku]

Bair hitbox:

Fair hitbox:

Not sure if it will help, since everybody agrees that bair is more disjointed than fair.

 

[SheerMadness]

^ And that's why you people need to learn how to DJC bair.

 

[AtotheZ]

Full hop ninja kick to aerial head flip smash is too good on light characters at higher percents

 

[KoRoBeNiKi]

Full hop ninja kick to aerial head flip smash is too good on light characters at higher percents

I think this is actually one of my more common kills against Fox'. as in DJCCing a fox aerial into f-air into u-smash. It is fun.

 

[AtotheZ]

I think I have the most fun using Yoshi than any other character. He's my newest character though, and I feel he plays a lot different than all the others, so I still have a lot of obstacles with him.