Yoshi Discussion

[Sangoku]

Don't parry by clicking z real quick when you want to do something OoS. It's the same for anything being OoS, you don't let go on the shield, then usmash.

Imagine you just want to grab/jump/usmash OoS real quick, what would you do? Press z, quickly press A/jump while still pressing Z. The magic about yoshi is that his early shield is himself with green invincibility frames. Therefore when I say "shield everytime before jumping", I should in fact say "only jump OoS quickly".

 

[SheerMadness]

mixa not sure what you don't understand?

Yoshi's shield doesn't come out instantly. And he has green invincibility between when you hit z and his shield does come out.

You can jump out between the period you hit z and when his shield visually appears. Thus you should never even see his shield if you're doing it right. And each of the jumps you do that you'll have a period of green invincibility.

Don't know where you're coming up with 17 frames?

 

[Sangoku]

Hmm after retesting stuff it looks like I've been making a mistake You need to shield from 4 frames before getting touch to 2 frames before getting touched (so 3 frames window).

 

[bloodpeach]

Yoshi gets 4 (i think) frames of green invincibility during his shield entering animation. once that's over, yoshi has the same out of shield options as any other character.

My guess is the 17 frames is parry + standing shield exit; the shield exit is the animation people usually associate with parry. However shield exit is slow and dangerous and inferior to jumping out of parry in every way as far as i can tell. Parry jumping slows down every jump by a few frames, but in the neutral game the invincibilty is almost always worth it.

 

[mixa]

Don't parry by clicking z real quick when you want to do something OoS. It's the same for anything being OoS, you don't let go on the shield, then usmash.

omg now it all makes sense. =)
my confusion was that until very recently I thought Yoshi's parry frames didn't happen with a normal shielding process, only when you quickly tapped Z. thus when people said "parry" I imagined someone tapping Z, getting 3 frames of parry + 15 of lag (it's actually 18 frames, not 17), and then counter attack.

in short, I thought you had to tap Z, and then jump. but you have to hold it.

thanks! though simple, I'd have taken forever to figure this out.

 

[The Star King]

okay, I've always been confused by the parry stuff, mainly because I never play Yoshi.
several times I've seen people say "to practice parry, parry every time before you jump" and that is worse than playing Metal Mario in terms of how long it takes to get off the ground, seems like an arbitrary practice. then I saw this post again:


what am I missing? can you actually cancel the parry into an out-of-shield move? I could never do it, and now with TAS I still can't do it. I'd be inclined to say you can't do **** until the parry is over (17 frames or something), but again, Yoshi is too hard for me. what's up?

Well yeah you can. I am positive. In TAS, if you are trying USmash, for example, are you inputting Up and A on the same frame? Maybe you have to first input up (to cancel the shield with a jump), and A the next (to cancel the jump start with an USmash).

edit: oh didn't see page after this post sorry

 

[Sangoku]

Just to confirm what you're saying Star King, you cannot u-smash out of shield per se. What you can do is jump out of shield and cancel your jump into an u-smash. So yeah, as you said, you need to input up before a. Same with running u-smash.

 

[bloodpeach]

Does dash attack to dsmash actually work? I did it but I'm still not convinced. DI breaks apart this example (down and in off dash attack -> tech or reverse ledge off dsmash), but maybe there are situations that mitigate that? What about dsmash as a finisher in general? I've done it off ftilt and nair as well.

 

[The Star King]

It works, and is quite good in some situations (e.g. if they are too close after the dash attack for a run off fair). I first learned it from SilentSlayers.

I also do weak nair -> dsmash sometimes too, it can be killer at mid %s. I never really do ftilt dsmash but I can see that being good.

Yeah maybe some DI can *potentially* stop it, but what DI that is situation-specific. A lot of times it'd have to be pretty hax DI to escape it. I think it's a good combo to keep in mind.

 

[SSBPete]

I haven't been on this thread for ages but here is my response to whether you should mash or not:
When trying to escape a combo I mash A too, but keep in mind you should be DI'ing the direction you're trying to escape from at the same time

That dash dsmash looks awesome. I have to start incorperating that into my game

 

[bloodpeach]

I've been doing some TAS stuff. Here are some preliminary results:

1) You can cancel parry with anything you could normally do OOS. So you don't have to wait for all 4 frames (or is it 3?) of parry before performing your next action.

2) DJL has 1 frame landing lag. Yoshi's regular jump has 4 frames landing lag, as do Z cancelled aerials. All standing options are possible after the landing lag.

3) Grounded DJL lasts 12 frames (5 jump startup. 1 jump. 5 double jump. 1 landing). Yoshi has armor during the doulbe jump phase, so there is potential for this to be used as a slower parry with better follow up. I think it is fast enough to escape fox's jabs on shield.

4) Aerial DJL is like grounded DJL but without the 5 frames startup. I think this could be incredibly good in very specific situations. I did it accidentally during my set vs chain-ace, which got me a free utilt (which i then squandered cuz im bad at this game).

Thoughts?

EDIT: What I called 1 frame landing lag may not be real. It could be that you are immediately standing, but the tool needs 1 frame to update the inputs. If this is the case, it may be possible to eliminate this vulnerability, as inputs are read form the controller multiple times per frame.

 

[SSBPete]

its probably not ideal to use DJL as a parry since you still take damage, plus the possibility of being knocked off the stage without a recovery if you mess up

it does have some practical uses though, which include full hopping under a platform and landing on it with DJL to continue combos with utilt and such

 

[bloodpeach]

the possibility of being knocked off the stage without a recovery if you mess up

If I was afraid of this I would not play yoshi.

 

[The Star King]

Yeah, DJL as a "parry" probably isn't great

Parry DJL might have potential though

 

[bloodpeach]

I found out why Yoshi is so low on J tier list.

Luigi UpB breaks armor at 0% in J, but at 1% in U.

 

[bloodpeach]

http://www.ssb64.com/assets/data/YoshiArmorBreaks.txt

The percents at which almost all moves hitboxes, at all staleness levels, break yoshi armor.

I'm pretty sure these are all right within 1%, but i'm gonna double check some of the iffy ones. Maybe I'll get industrious and add getup attacks and make it look pretty.

 

[Sangoku]

It looks terrible, but thanks a lot, that must have been a huge work.

 

[mixa]

Hey, nice one. For how long does Yoshi's armor last?


I'd like to add that at those %s Yoshi will have suffer no hitstun after the armor is broken. The movement is interrupted but a reaction is still potentially immediate.

Despite unlikely, it's possible that you could save a Yoshi by doing that: imagine Yoshi is recovering and going for the edge, but won't end up reaching it. To guarantee the edgeguard, you attack him anyway, and during the hitlag, Yoshi DIs up/towards and manages to edgehog.

 

[Madao]

http://www.ssb64.com/assets/data/YoshiArmorBreaks.txt

The percents at which almost all moves hitboxes, at all staleness levels, break yoshi armor.

I'm pretty sure these are all right within 1%, but i'm gonna double check some of the iffy ones. Maybe I'll get industrious and add getup attacks and make it look pretty.

Lol nice work. Did you seriously manually test every single move?

 

[bloodpeach]

Of course not, that'd be way too much work.

When yoshi is in armor, 140 is subtracted from knockback. If the result is positive, it is appled as knockback, otherwise it is ignored. Thanks for putting all the hitbox data into nice, easily iterable, text files

 

[Madao]

You're welcome . I'm glad to know that other people find it useful.

For most of the values, i just copied from Toomai's table. Some things I had to manually find and write down. It took a while for me to neatly format the text files though.
Did you use my calculator to test it or did you just run the game and use cheat engine to look at the knockback of the last hit you landed? Even with these tools I'd imagine it still took quite some time. Also, how did you figure out that it's 140 knockback?

I wish there was a convenient way to store the hitbox data in a program. It's too much manual work lol.

 

[bloodpeach]

I used your knockback equation, combined with the power of ALGEBRA to write an equation that calculates the percent required for a move to achieve a specific knockback. I then made a program do the work for me. It wasn't so bad.

I found a description of the armor mechanic on the offical site but the value they gave (120) was too low for U, so I messed around until I found 140 and verified it in the code.

Coincidentally, the 20 points less armor in J works out to armor breaking 15-20% earlier for most strong moves.

Edit: mixa, you start getting hitstun again when the percent goes 1-2% above the level in my chart. It varies. Maybe I'll add that info in a later version. A half decent rule of thumb is you get a frame of hitstun for every 2% above the cutoff (1% for fresh, strong hitboxes). This works alright for every move that breaks armor under 200%.

 

[Madao]

Nice. I'm curious how you dealt with all the different values for each hitbox. I guess maybe I'm just too unmotivated to type in every hitbox's damage, knockback, etc.
Ya it was easy to see that the cap was 140, but I was wondering if you read through the game code, or just noticed the pattern, but I see how you did it now. Lol I must be bad at algebra because I still haven't figured out an easy way to calculate the numbers, although I didn't give it much thought yet.

 

[mixa]

That official website is very interesting. I wonder for how long those articles have been out there.

edit: "Last update:00.2.4" -- huh.
If I find Z-cancel there I'm just gonna pretend Nintendo taught everyone the ATs.

 

[bloodpeach]

zcancel is there. so is DI and angled attacks. supposedly written by SAKURAI himself.

Can you read japanese? Or are you using google translate like a scrub (like me...)

 

[mixa]

Yeah, I have to rely on translators too.

I found the DI page, but I remember having found another DI page which went more in depth.

I saw a DK holding a Kirby next to a Meowth and realized I've never done that combo. ):

So BEE NESS is a reference to the fans of the Hanshin Tigers, a baseball team:

Spoiler

 

[Cobrevolution]

although i am a bumblebee tuna user for nestle snipes, we cannot argue the simple fact that his best outfit is SHOUT OUT THE U

 

[mixa]

the discourse of reddit:

Once her [Samus] invincibility frames are up, she can ledge-hop a fair (mentioned earlier as a very safe option).

I feel that a lack of interest in her as a character due to her having always been perceived as bottom-tier has led to too-few people pushing her to her true potential.

I find the 'untapped potential' talk funnier than 'good only if you know how to play'.


and this guy. classic:

Ness is actually really good in the Japanese version of the game

(by not placing top 8 in any tournament, ever)


rofl why did I post this on the Yoshi page. my bad

 

[bloodpeach]

I gotta post something about yoshi quick to get this threadback on track!

Kirby UpB (spike hitbox) is the only non-throw move in U that breaks armor at 0%. This is obviously the main reason why this mu is so bad. DK DownB would too if it could hit airborne opponents...

 

[Cobrevolution]

it can hit airborne opponents, they just have to be below dk while he's on a platform, right?

 

[The Star King]

it can hit airborne opponents, they just have to be below dk while he's on a platform, right?

no noob

 

[Annex]

it can hit airborne opponents, they just have to be below dk while he's on a platform, right?

They have to be on the ground and touching his hitbox, which doesn't go below him much. The only times I can think of where this can be abused is using it on the top plat in DL and hitting opponents on the side plats.

http://www.ssb64.com/assets/data/YoshiArmorBreaks.txt

This is awesome.
Really good to know DK Spin never breaks it. I'll have to start punching dinos instead.

 

[Madao]

I'm pretty sure these are all right within 1%, but i'm gonna double check some of the iffy ones. Maybe I'll get industrious and add getup attacks and make it look pretty.

Was it intentional that you went over 999% for Luigi's Nspec? Also, if you want, I can double check any values with my calculator. I just realised it's a lot simpler to add all the moveset data into a program if I disregard the names of the moves, but just put the numbers in order lol.
I'm pretty sure no getup attack will be able to break the armor since most if not all of them are fixed knockback.

 

[bloodpeach]

Youre free to double check using the calculator, but since it's using the same equations and same raw data, I don't think it will uncover much besides subtle differences between the asm math and python math, which should only change the values by 1%, and probably only in extreme cases.

And yeah that's intentional. That is the damage required for luigis fireballs to break armor. Too bad you can never achive it in game. This is the real reason luigi is so low on the tier list.

 

[Komotonoto]

YOSHI MASTER RACE

 

[Wizzrobe]

YOSHI MASTER RACE

KOMOtoNIG is back

 

[SheerMadness]

Alright Yoshis. I'm tired of seeing almost all of you uptilt light chars with very little success.

Learn to freaking horizontally combo. Like this:

Wizzy learned in like a week. So can you.

 

[Sangoku]

I'm often training nair chains on jigglypuff in training mode. Still have a lot of trouble doing it. Success rate is like 1 out of 10, compared to 1 out of 50 in the beginning. I do it better when not warmed up too, preferably after a few days without playing. Is it super easy for other Yoshi mains? Am I just that bad?

 

[M!nt]

I wouldn't say it's super easy, I sometimes accidentally do fairs instead because you have to keep moving forward while doing them. What's your problems with it?

 

[Combo Blaze]

wizzy was getting 3ple ftilts n' ****

that shouldn't be happening