Yoshi 1.11 Changelog Thread

[NeoRed]

Post here any changes you've noticed!

 

[Micaelis]

The change to Shield Stun (being increased on average by 3-5 frames) is what is going to be the biggest changes. This mostly affects multi-hit moves like our Dair.

People shielding can no longer drop shield once the Dair connects with their shield. This means a shield poke or shield break is the only result if a shield's health has already been reduced by a bit (probably 20% or so). This gives us interesting options now since SH Fair on shield became about 5 frames safer now too.

I'm also excited about Single Jab 1 on shield having 3 less frames of disadvantage meaning Single Jab > Cancel > Option is a tiny bit stronger now. Everything helps.

Be warned though, Power Shielding seems to reduce Shield Stun now, therefore a Power Shield enables people to act similar to pre-patch. Be careful of abusing SH Fair vs someone who is good at Power Shielding

Edit: Added Slush's PS info

 

[Sinister Slush]

Actually perfect shields changed too.
http://smashboards.com/threads/magical-engimatic-land-1-1-1-patch-notes.419067/page-10#post-20220576

For the Dair stuff, that's also true too. If there's even an egg toss worth of damage on a shield and we dair, we're breaking that shield.
https://twitter.com/VGBC_GimR/status/649260067066351616

Jab > dtilt might be a good way to pressure shields.

 

[Lukingordex]

So apparently our biggest weakness (shields) was weakened.

I wonder how this will affect Yoshi, seems like a big buff for him with our stuff being safer against shields.

Other than the obvious Dair that everyone is talking about, what happens now with the other aerials when we hit a shield? Will we be able to space with SH Fairs or Nairs safely? Will bair be a more useable aerial?

Will people be able to get out of shield before being hit by the second hit of grounded down b?

 

[Delta-cod]

Landing Nair might also be more powerful as an option now. This could also increase the effectiveness of SHAD Nair.

 

[Micaelis]

Landing Nair might also be more powerful as an option now. This could also increase the effectiveness of SHAD Nair.

Especially as a cross up. RAR SHAD Nair behind their shield opens up possibly landing with almost frame advantage maybe. Even just RAR Cross Up Nair works since they have to respect the Bair option. On that note, is SH Bair on shield impossible to drop shield between hits and punish now? If done right, we might be able to SH Bair instantly against a shield > Nair to literally trap them in their shield until we land behind them.

Edit: I'm not home so I forget if we have time to SH Bair > Nair against a shield or not. If not, apologize my ignorance. I do not use Bair against shields often at all.

 

[Sinister Slush]

Honestly, landing anything might be safe now.
Except aerial Down-B and Side-B lol

 

[Ghostgodzilla]

Jab to down b coming through lol

 

[SuperSceptile15]

So due to increased shield stun, is Yoshi's greatest asset his aerials? What other strengths does he have?

 

[Skitrel]

Obervations:

Fair being 5 frames safer is huge for us.
Dair pressure when you've done any chunk of shield damage is terrifying to opponents and gives shield breaks much easier.

The changes have resulted in a big buff to aggressive Yoshi play. This is huge for Yoshi because we've always been at our best when applying high aggression ignoring the odd hit we take in the process. Previous major weaknesses were attacks on shields and landing lag.

Remember all that angst everyone had against Yoshi before? I think it's going to be much bigger after this patch.

 

[muddykips]

Jab to down b coming through lol

...that's actually a really good point. especially with shieldstun after downb, would it break their shield?

also now that there's shieldstun, i wonder how much we'll rely on jabs? utilt's safer now than before, and has more reward.

 

[ensane]

You can roll or spotdodge between the 1st hit of shielded grounded down b and the 2nd

 

[Nikes]

Just had a thought, won't this affect our ability to OoS Nair stuff like Sheiks Fair on shield?

Also jab > down B should be a lot more reliable now. This change is actually massive.

 

[Micaelis]

Just had a thought, won't this affect our ability to OoS Nair stuff like Sheiks Fair on shield?

Yes. This is what terrifies me the most about the patch. Character's with already strong aggressive Fairs like Sheik, Diddy, and Marth are going to give us an even harder time now. I'm worried how Yoshi fits in the metagame more so than how he does on a general basis.

 

[Nikes]

Ok so this is a thing:

 

[Ghostgodzilla]

Yeah, sheik and diddy are still going to be a problem for us

 

[Delta-cod]

I don't think Nair OoS was effective against them in the first place. It lost to decent spacing, lol.

I think we get a better deal out of this. Us being safe(ish) on shield now is much more important than them being MORE safe on shield.

 

[Nikes]

Idk, I seemed to have gotten decent milage with it in my most recent set against a Sheik, since it stops the Fair strings and we win the trade. Not sure what else is even safe against Sheik anyhow

But yes, having that safety on shield is pretty huge for us, I just came back from a meet and it was working out really well in the games I played.

 

[Professor Oats]

Our fair on block is now just as busted as people use to complain it was. I've tested a lot, and Sheik cannot punish a well-spaced fadeaway fair with needles or dash attack (you can actually jab her before the dash attack even gets to you).

That and SHAD nair. Both are godlike.

Is anyone noticing differences in egg on block? I'm finding egg into landing up air and egg into egg lay on block have a much smaller gap in between than they used to.

 

[HawkBlade]

Just an observation: Yoshi's down air against an opponent who shields the entirety of the move has devastating implications. Earlier, A DK did just that and, after his shield was reduced to a pea, I was able to up tilt him before he could do anything else. Possibly, he didn't react fast enough but I like to think its attributed to the former reason, haha.

 

[Delta-cod]

Is anyone noticing differences in egg on block? I'm finding egg into landing up air and egg into egg lay on block have a much smaller gap in between than they used to.

Egg on block should be affected by the increase in shield stun. Therefore, we should be able to apply much more pressure through SHET, even on block, now.

This patch has opened up a lot for us, I think. Good places to start exploring are:

SHET > Egg Lay (what's the feel of the enemy's ability to respond due to the increased stun?)

SHET > Landing Nair > Stuff (probably jab/Down B?) -- Is there a reasonable break in shield stun here for OOS options?

Bair stuff, primarily landing Bair now due to the stun.

Dair stuff, because shield popping.

 

[MrGame&Rock]

Ok so this is a thing:

We just got a bad matchup against Lucario. Oh joy.

 

[Sinister Slush]

No we didn't.
Tho will say it's cool of Slice and his crew to introduce us tech that's been in since Melee since the new players don't know about it.

 

[Delta-cod]

We just got a bad matchup against Lucario. Oh joy.

Anyone who thinks this gives us a bad Lucario MU is thinking too narrowly. There's no reason to be caught at the ledge like this, PLUS we've already shown ways to avoid it. No johns, people.

 

[Ghostgodzilla]

Lucario locking us on and edge is so situational, and they shoe how to escape, plus our second jump has armor so...yeah.

 

[Professor Oats]

What everyone already said. The Lucario matchup before wasn't, like, really easy or anything, but it's still essentially the same. Just be wary when on the ledge, and if you pick battlefield, don't assume you can sit on the platform in shield for days and you'll be fine.

If anything the shield-stun changes benefit Yoshi a little bit more, as now Lucario has a tougher time responding to a lot of our aerials on shield, and Yoshi has the edge in mobility, so you can approach his shield on your terms.

 

[Micaelis]

More great info about the patch discovered by @Shaya.

http://smashboards.com/threads/shields-in-1-1-1.419235/

It's a bit confusing but the short version is:

Perfect Shielding frame window was reduced by 1 frame from 1-4 to 1-3 on Shield start-up.

Shield Lock frames (4-11) now are overlapped by Shield Stun frames where before they were added together. However, you still have a minimum of 8 frames of Shield Lock.

Example:

Ganon's Fair had 7 frames of Shield Stun pre-patch and now it has 12 frames. If Ganon hits a Shield during Frame 4 of the Shield's start-up...

Pre-patch, the defender is locked in their shield for 4-11 + 7 frames and can drop shield on Frame 18.

After patch, the defender is locked in their shield for 4 + 12 frames and can drop shield on Frame 16.

Inversely, Sheik's Fair now has 4 frames (up from 1 Frame) of Shield Stun and hits a shield starting up on Frame 4.

Pre-patch, the defender is locked in their shield for 4-11 + 1 frames and can drop shield on Frame 12.

After patch, the defender is locked in their shield for 4-11 frames and can drop shield on Frame 11.

This overall means that using shield briefly is just as strong or stronger than pre-patch but HOLDING shield and being hit with an attack past the Shield Lock frames results in higher Shield Stun than before. In a situation where the opponent is actively trying to abuse this knowledge or trying to Power Shield, our Fair is actually 2 frames worse now if they don't hold Shield.

Math:

Pre-Patch, Fair does 5 frames of Shield Stun. Hits on Shielding Frame 4, opponent can drop shield on Frame 16.

After patch, Fair does 10 frames of Shield Stun. Hits on Shielding Frame 4, opponent can drop shield on Frame 14.

But remember, this is only if they quickly shield then drop it. Most people will most likely hold shield which will result in a nice extra 5 frames of Shield Stun than pre-patch. Knowledge is power.

 

[ensane]

So if I'm understanding this correctly, the system now promotes precise shielding of attacks and punishes camping in shield?

 

[Delta-cod]

ensane That would be the gist of it, yes.

Micaelis Thanks for the link and summary! I think the patch still works out well for us simply because such precise shielding doesn't usually happen. Does this change make multihit moves strictly better in the general sense?

 

[Micaelis]

Micaelis Thanks for the link and summary! I think the patch still works out well for us simply because such precise shielding doesn't usually happen. Does this change make multihit moves strictly better in the general sense?

Just happy to help! I agree that in most scenarios the patch has helped us more than hurt. I mostly posted this info so we can use this knowledge to our own advantage.

During Shield Lock frames you simply cannot drop shield but you can Roll, Spot Dodge, and Jump (maybe Grab?) during them. However, you can do none of those actions during Shield Stun.

Therefore a multi-hit move, like our Dair, upon contact with their shield will now induce Shield Stun for the entirety of the move, regardless of when it hits their shield, rendering them trapped as we have previously mentioned.

I personally think it's a mixed bag on whether that means multi-hit moves are stronger in a general sense. I would say mostly no because humans are not perfect and people often dropped shield at incorrect times (whether too early or too late) during multi-hit attacks. Now you can let go of shield during a multi-hit attack and the game will perfectly shield the entire attack for you. However, there are corner cases (our Dair) where the multi-hit attack does so much Shield Damage that this becomes a good thing.

 

[noft]

what about grab release into multi jab options?

 

[Ghostgodzilla]

they can still roll, and many characters have a faster jab compared to yoshi

 

[ensane]

I'm not sure about that. Maybe a lot of ties but not a lot of under frame 3 jabs

 

[Breakout]

Hey guys is it just me or is our pivot grab faster now because it looks like it has a lot less start up than from before. But I could be wrong so take this with a grain of salt.

 

[muddykips]

nah, pivot grab is as slowballs as ever.

dataminers didn't find anything about it in the patch thread, either.

 

[Breakout]

Ok good I'm the insane one then as usual.

 

[Stromp]

Ok so this is a thing:

I assume Lucario will be fixed... At least they found a way out of that

 

[Delta-cod]

I assume Lucario will be fixed... At least they found a way out of that

There's nothing "broken", in the strict mechanical sense, of how Lucario's Aura Sphere Charge works now. It follows the rules of the shield stun formula, that's all. There's nothing to be fixed, and I highly doubt this will be a major component of Lucario's meta development.

Now, I'm pretty sure they'll change shield stun a little bit (at least) in a future update patch, so I wouldn't be surprised to see things like this change in the future.

 

[Stromp]

There's nothing "broken", in the strict mechanical sense, of how Lucario's Aura Sphere Charge works now. It follows the rules of the shield stun formula, that's all. There's nothing to be fixed, and I highly doubt this will be a major component of Lucario's meta development.

Now, I'm pretty sure they'll change shield stun a little bit (at least) in a future update patch, so I wouldn't be surprised to see things like this change in the future.

It isn't a big deal just frustrating when it occasionally happens. I wasn't exactly suggesting it is broken, but should be altered at some point

 

[muddykips]

hey, at least it's escapable, and requires a decent amount of foresight and effort to set up.

i mean, even if it weren't, it'd still have a good chance of staying in. just look at how many characters there are with kill setups out of throws!