Guide YLink's Official Stage Ban and Counter Pick Guide!

[Omni_Smash]

hmmmm... as a semi-mario/doc player I would suggest actually counter picking destination, YL can beat fire balls and put up a good fight against pills if he spams correctly and the marios have horrible recovery so it's a cinch that they will try to UP-B against the edge of the stage, reverse wavedash to hog solves the problem.

If you aren't comfortable with your projectile game versus a Doc then I would suggest banning FD because pills can be overwhelming if not dealt with properly.

However if you can handle FD I would Ban YS, it's really too cramped in my opinion, you don't have much room to run and there is a good chance of you dying off the top... isn't there?

 

[Laijin]

hmmmm... as a semi-mario/doc player I would suggest actually counter picking destination, YL can beat fire balls and put up a good fight against pills if he spams correctly and the marios have horrible recovery so it's a cinch that they will try to UP-B against the edge of the stage, reverse wavedash to hog solves the problem.

If you aren't comfortable with your projectile game versus a Doc then I would suggest banning FD because pills can be overwhelming if not dealt with properly.

However if you can handle FD I would Ban YS, it's really too cramped in my opinion, you don't have much room to run and there is a good chance of you dying off the top... isn't there?

FD has no platforms. This makes YL's projectile game less effective. :[
Thats my only problem with the level.

 

[rhan]

At the latest tourney I went to there was a Doc player! But he wasn't all that great. Decent at best. But I got to fool around with where I should/could counterpick.

Pokefloats....

Yeah I know it sounds pretty wierd but yes, Pokefloats.

I found out you can basically camp projectiles the entire time and if you angle some of your projectiles right then the cape can't send them directly back at you. Also he had a hard time getting around them to me due to the fact on how much space was between us.

 

[elvenarrow3000]

Poke Floats fights are sooo long though @_@

 

[Laijin]

pokefloats is ********. It destroys every who is not Jigglypuff's recovery.
I guess I just need to play there more.

 

[Skyson]

Poke Floats is ridiculous. Easily one of the most unpredictable stages if played right. Young Link's projectiles have some of the MOST freedom on this stage. The stage boundaries are rather small for any character to attempt recovering on, which can promote a lot of cheap KOs in bad situations.

A lot of playing on Pokefloats can benefit anyone, really. I always saw this as a stage designed for players well-versed in mindgames and outwitting the opponent. I personally get screwed on Pokefloats, because I prefer a much more aggressive style, and Poke Floats shifts around so much that it forces players to pay attention to the terrain while focusing on the opponent as well.

Clever Young Link players who prefer indirectly tossing around quick projectiles can destroy players when using and abusing this stage, in my opinion. A good knowledge of where teching is available (almost anywhere) is nice, too, especially with Young Link's ability to walljump. Tossing projectiles while walljumping around the stage can become annoying.

I hate playing people on it, but I can respect what it does to technical players' games. It's a goofy stage that emphasizes the fact that stages ARE a part of the game.

Also, Fox SD'ing by falling through Seel's tail = gold.

 

[Caleb Wolfbrand]

the main post noted Rainbow Cruise as an okay place to take Sheik... I have to highly disagree there

Among high tiers, I would say Sheik has the least problem with it. She's one of the most versatile characters who fights the same everywhere. Falco hates the stage, Marth doesn't have as much gay setup edge camp fun... Fox doesn't mind as much. But Sheik... I wouldn't take Sheik to Cruise. Just my experience.

I ban Fountain almost always, but I just hate that stage with everyone.

Jungle Japes is alright sometimes, you really have to be familiar though.
If you can convince a tournament organizer to turn it on in singles, I find Mushroom Kingdom 2 to be incredibly fun.
Corneria is the ****, generally, but Fox is unforgiving on the upsmash.

I absolutely love Brinstar as a counterpick, I use it against Ganon, Falcon, and Falco a lot.

Against Mario I would suggest Stadium or FD... Dreamland is a bad place to be. Most of your kills will be up, and most of his will be verticle. Keep that in mind.

Samus and Peach, avoid Dreamland obviously, Story if you're good there, Corneria if confident

I should really come to the YL forums more often : )



and ****, I play Yoshi's Island 64
I don't care how banned it is, it's so fun with YL XD

 

[rhan]

I did?

Top Ban and Counter Picks

Fox - B/Green Greens, CP/Kongo Jungle (64)

Marth - B/Yoshi's Story, CP/Poke Floats?

Sheik - B/Fountain of Dreams, CP/Pokemon Stadium?

Falco - B/Final Destination, CP/Mute City

Nah lol

Anyway Rainbow Cruise is a horrible stage in my opinion... I just hate it. But it all depends on how you play I guess. And no one should ever try to counterpick RC against Sheik/Fox unless they're really brave.

Against Mario I wouldn't choose FD because of the fact if you're trying to keep space then your projectiles could just be sent back with the cape. Using projectiles in the air just leaves you open so I don't recommend doing that. Dreamland I wouldn't pick there either. It's about as bad as FD IMO. It's about a 35/65 chance on winning there. Mario has many horizontal kills, a cape to send projectiles back and could simpily edgegaurd once YL is off stage.

Samus/Peach is common sense on where to ban. Lol counterpicks depend on how the player is. If the Samus is about camping you wouldn't want to take them to Pokemon Stadium cause they can PMC and get easy kills that way. Corneria is a fair CP because of both of thier D-Smashes are rigged and send in the opposite directions. So if you can stay at the fin of the ship you should be fine as long as you don't CC against them and can tech off the fin. You should last fairly long and get some good virtical kills.

Ok enough ranting on my part...

 

[Caleb Wolfbrand]

I see.

I think with the Sheik counterpick Rainbow Cruise would be better then FD. I think the movement of that stage could throw off an average Sheik player. On FD Young Link could use projectiles better but Sheik can capitalize on mistakes of poor projectile usage.
.

That's what I was thinking of, about the Cruise situation. Though I see that was not on the main post but below (whoops)
And as for my pick against Sheik, I dunno, she ***** pretty much everywhere.


-

I fight Mario more than anyone else, and while I have more stages I prefer, I wouldn't say FD is bad. He doesn't have platforms to hide under from incoming bombs and such, and if he capes, whoopty doo, you can hit him during if you time the projectile right. Keeping him wanting to cape makes him more predictable anyways...

Battlefield is probably better for the match but I don't prefer that stage very much.

you may have misunderstood, I already said Dreamland was bad for that matchup... maybe I should have explained myself better.

 

[rhan]

I have just been owned. Good ****. xD

Well yeah. Now that I have a greater understanding of the game I know now Rainbow Cruise is a bad counter pick. Then again it all depends on how people play. For my play style it's bad. A Young Link's best bet it probably PS because it's probably the stage Young Link excels at. He's got is platforms and still enough room to keep up a good projectile game.

Against Mario best stage could possible be Battlefield. But then against maybe Pokefloats. I haven't played any good Mario's but I played a decent Doc. They're not all that different so that;s why I'm kinda comparing them together... I the Doc player had a hard time tryingto set me up for kill moves due to the fact that everything was in movement. Also when he did cape my projectiles back they didn't get sent directly back because of the angles. Eh I SoVA needs more Mario players.

And I didn't misunderstand. I was in agreement with what you said. I was just trying to bring up a counterpick discussion maybe?

 

[Caleb Wolfbrand]

I had a lot of matches today with my Mario chum and Battlefield usually ended on my favor. I can't make a stance on PokeFloats cause I avoid it, but it probably could be good, if the YL practices it a bit.

I am making a combo video (slowly..) and hopefully I will have some nice Mario stuff in there.

I agree Stadium is probably the best stage, I always try to play there. I also really like Brinstar, but that might just be preference. Something about lava + possible fire spike back to lava is just too good lol.

Are there any matchups where Young Link is okay at Dreamland? Fox, I imagine, isn't too bad. Maybe that's an okay place to take Sheik, I dunno. I beat Chu Dat's YL with my Sheik on Dreamland once, but it was still very close. Hmm...

I mean, you can run away pretty good on Dreamland, and spam and such. Maybe good against Marth...

-
Yoshi, I have some experience with. Luckily I live near a Yoshi main :D
Yoshi has a dtilt with set knockback, which depends on the enemies weight. For YL, this means it sends him far at low percent. This can be very scary at the edge, especially one like Battlefield where it can be very... annoying to recover at times.

Stadium works out well against Yoshi, from my experience. FD seems okay, since you can outspam his eggs (generally speaking) and kind of control the match.

I don't think Fountain is so good against Yoshi, only cause that stage is pretty small, and being near Yoshi can be trouble (he crouch cancel counters everything...) I would ban Dreamland though, probably.


edit : Bowser

I also have experience vs Bowser.
While banning Story can be a good idea, I have to agree. Story is good for Bowser, but you can also kill him quicker there, but he can kill you quicker too.
Dreamland, the opposite. Harder to kill each other... But generally you have more space to run around, which is good against him.

FD is alright, run around and spam, work your way in on him. I'd give it a hell yeah. From my exp Bowser doesn't like FD so much. I would actually pick it over Stadium.



edit again :

Donkey Kong I would suggest banning Dreamland or FD.
Stadium and (dum dum dum) Rainbow Cruise would be okay. His grab game is scary. If the YL is confident in Mute City or Brinstar it can work out as well.

 

[Laijin]

Bowser is like the easiest match up ever.
He literally can not catch you no matter what. Just run around and throw **** at him, combo him, and you win. You don't even have to counter pick stage. Its like an auto-win. lol.
Same with Donkey Kong.

Pretty much, you usually always want to ban small stages against most characters(with some exceptions of course).

 

[Zjiin]

Wow, i wish i met bowsers in tourney, lmao.

 

[rhan]

Bowser is fairly simple but on skill levels of a bowser like Gimpy? I don't think it would be that easy to win. For sure ban either Yoshi's Story or Corneria. A good counterpick could be FD or maybe Battlefield. I only fought one good Bowser so I just know what's good to ban.

I have trouble with DK for some odd reason.... I wouldn't recommend anywhere small. Best counterpick IMO is Pokefloats. You can keeps a lot of space between you and him.

 

[Laijin]

Bowser is fairly simple but on skill levels of a bowser like Gimpy? I don't think it would be that easy to win.

Yes...yes it would be still be an easy win. Does'nt matter who the player is, Bowser is still Bowser. Its not like Gimpy automatically gives bowser a +10 speed buff whenever he plays him. He will still be really slow, you YL will still be 10x faster than him and constantly stuff at that huge target of his.
I've only played one good Bowser(Reflex. Best bowser in the south east), and he does'nt even play Bowser against my YL cause he already knows how impossible the match up is.
When we ended up in the same pool, while he would easily destroy the entire pool, he would lose 2-0 to me because it ****ing impossible.
Its just a flat out, ********, impossible match up.
I did'nt even have to ban any stages.

Against DK, same strat with Bowser, just stay the hell away from him since he can actually kill you easier than Bowser. Ban Yoshi's of course. Keep space at all times and projectile combo him all day long. I counter pick Pokemon Stadium because its a big stage, and about 98% of all smashers don't know about YL's infinite rapid sword infinite on big characters between the mountain and in the tree. A gaurenteed probably 80% damage depeneding on how soon you catch them, if not much more. Its like a free stock..and if you can catch them in it both times. Two free stocks. :O

 

[Zjiin]

I played Gimpy at FC and I just have to say, make your life easier and ban YS for sure!

 

[Caleb Wolfbrand]

Donkey Kong is a ****LOAD BETTER than Bowser, though. He is much faster, can combo, can kill, and has reach like crazy... I had to fight Cornel's DK at the last tourney and they were close and awesome matches.

DK grabs are insanely lethal so yeah I guess bigger stages would be a good idea. Stadium again best bet. Low ceilings can help sooo much, or else DK can live too long and he is a scary mutha ****a. I still think Mute City is a good idea, technically, or maybe even Green Greens. I don't really like either, but if it works for ya... I don't mind Battlefield vs him, either.

 

[Skyson]

Battlefield is a decent pick against DK. DK can be a LOT faster than Bowser and can take advantage of small stages, especially ones where his arms take up 3/4 of the stage. <_<

Pokemon Stadium is an okay pick, and Mute City has a lot in Young Link's favor against him.

Long horizontal range + low ceiling + occasional yet not definite platforms = good for running around and mixing up options.

I personally love playing on Fountain of Dreams because of the platforms, but it's moreso because it sort of tailors to how I play Young Link and other characters, fast without repetition. I do some inconsistent things that I'm not even sure will work, just to keep an opponent guessing. Fountain's platforms don't let a better character get oriented to their staple combos involving platforms, forcing them to switch up their game on an as need basis. So many people hate Fountain, but I guess I don't play technically enough to be bothered, I love it.

That didn't have much to do with this topic, just my opinion on Fountain.

I have to get together this weekend with people and play more Young Link on some of these counterpicks, just to get a feel for the tactics involved.

 

[Caleb Wolfbrand]

So...

Anybody want to talk about Brinstar?

I've had absolutely the most success counterpicking there. Lava doesn't bother me much at all. I find it relatively easy to push people into it with YL, given the amount of options he has.

I counterpicked here against Fox and Falcon players at a tourney this weekend, and they almost always picked Marth in response. I still won, though Marth and Sheik are still pretty beast there.

I love taking Fox, Falco, Falcon, Ganon, DK, Bowser, anyone really.

Yoshi REALLY suffers in this. If you dair his DJ outside the stage, and he falls into lava, he'll be there for a while : ) leading to a free kill probably.


Anybody else just love this stage? cause it's been my most successful counterpick so far.

 

[rhan]

I forget that Brinstar is even a counterpick stage. Haha. I just take Falco to Mute City. Basically the same. Road = Lava. But the small plat form has him on edge because he can't lazer camp like he would want and the no edges really kill his recovery even more.

I gotta play at Brinstar more often. It seems really good against Fox. It also gives YL the option to camp more yet still be able to rush in to get a quick nair/dair to try to kill. I'll try it out at the up comming tourney/fest this Saturday (If I go).

 

[Caleb Wolfbrand]

Against Falco, at Brinstar, you have those "fleshy pillars" you can hide behind to shield from lazers. Hey, not much, but at least you have time to pull a bomb.

also,
it can take 2 bombs (or one attack and one bomb) to destroy the center part of the stage and spread it. I've gotten an abnormal amount of kills this way (especially against Falco, Roy, and Luigi cause of their ****ty recovery)

One time I bombed it just as a Falcon came in with a dair, and he fell right through and died I was like "lol"

 

[rhan]

Brinstar sounds like loads of fun now! :D

I'll try it out tomorrow. I haven't been able to get out this house lately. But my brother is a good test subject.

Brinstar is sounding pretty good though. Against a campy Falco the pillar things can block the lazers and against an aggressive Falco he won't have much space to combo. And the platforms can kill his pillars at times.

 

[Caleb Wolfbrand]

I love the platforms! I was just playing at Brinstar today and ***** three different players falco's there :D

hooray for young link

hooray for combo video 75 percent done

 

[outofdashdwz]

Young Link's game against Peach mainly involves outmaneuvering her while creating openings with your bajillion projectiles to land more hits, one of which will hopefully kill lol. Peach is fat and slow (), so any stage that inhibits her ability to move more than yours is good. Pokefloats definitely comes to mind. She'll never catch you <_< Rainbow Cruise is iffy because on the actual ship, Peach corners you pretty easily and once you're cornered, you're pretty much dead. As for the ban against Peach, you're probably better off with Mute City. I would much rather play a Young Link on Mute City than DL64, since while DL64 lets me live forever, it gives Young Link a lot more room to move around and camp with projectiles until an opening comes up, whereas on Mute City, you're confined to a very small area for Peach to pressure you, your hookshot recovery is removed, and your up B is easily edgeguarded.

 

[Caleb Wolfbrand]

I agree, Mute City is Peach's **** cake : (


I don't understand how anyone can play at PokeFloats. I personally think it should be perma-banned. How can an awesome stage like Yoshi's Island 64 be banned, while junk like that is in circulation? come on... yeah I know YI64 has the farthest cloud, but hell ban the cloud if you have to, the level is too much fun for YL!!! I swear

Peach I usually take to Stadium, cause of the low ceilings and it has "enough room" to run about and not get cornered (hopefully) I don't mind FD against Peach either.

I definitely agree that Mute Chitty is worse than Dreamland, though. I mean, that level is great for YL anyway, but Mute... is just... awful.

Corneria is also a pretty good pick against Peach, but really depends on how you feel about the level. Some Peach's rule there, some hate it with a passion.




I have been thinking about Falco a whole lot recently, and decided FD is probably not what you should ban. Everyone always thinks FD is terrible cause of lasers, but when it comes down to it, if you learn to powershield perfectly, FD doesn't seem like such a huge advantage. Besides, being a Falco player, I can tell you : Platforms are Falco's true combo potential. Falco can do MUCH more damage to YL with the help of platforms. In particular Dreamland seems to be great for Falco in this regard.

I would ban Yoshi's Story, just cause Falco's rushdown is zomgz wtf. I mean, even without lasers he has your number no matter what up close. And at Story, he can kill you a lot faster, and off the top with his down B chains (a shameful way to go >_<)

My point is, learning to play at FD makes fighting Falco a lot better. If you keep powershielding, lasers will lose priority in the player's mind. Instead he'll want to catch you. Then you can trap with your projectiles. FD is a great stage for YL when the lasers aren't a problem.

I still think Brinstar is the best pick against Falco. Mute is okay too. Having mained Falco for years I can say Brinstar is probably more... Game-hampering.

 

[rhan]

I can never remember the counterpick list. Probably this is why I do so bad in tourneys.

But I agree too that Mute is worst than Dreamland against Peach. And for some reason I actually do a little better against Peach at Dreamland. It's wierd.

And against Falco Brinstar IS probably THE best stage you can go to next to Mute City. FD is still a good ban in my opinion because most Falcos play very campy instand of being agressive.

Not a lot of time to respond in detail because this class is almost out so I'll update this post and the list later...

 

[Dogysamich]

Just lurking around.

And sticking this.

Cause this looks like relevant work to you guys. So in the off chance that all 5 of you drop off for a month and this might go under. We cant have that, now can we?

*stick*

 

[Caleb Wolfbrand]

Dogy you ***** stick to the Doc forums LOL

ActuallY! Dogy you're the coolest guy ever! I think you outta drop doc and pick up y.link cause he's so much more kooler than doc. I mean, he's got more projectiles than doc! And you like projectiles! And I like you! YEAH!

*blatently edited by Dogy for a self-esteem boost*

 

[Dogysamich]

*points to the bottom of the y.link forums*
You really wanna talk to your new mod like that, rc?

YOU REALLY WANNA TEST MY GANGSTA?

 

[rhan]

Oh man I wasn't expecting a sticky on this thread...

Now that it's stickied we have to discuss this much more! I will do my best to perfect and discuss every counterpick and ban option!

Thanks much Dogy! ^_^

 

[Dogysamich]

it's no problem. I usually lurk through here anyway.

Now you just gotta check and see if that shadow moved on it's own or not.

Nothing major. >.>

 

[D20]

You absolutely have to ban FD against Sheik. No platforms? No way to escape the chain grab? No thanks.

 

[Caleb Wolfbrand]

This man has a point. Sheik at FD is kinda : (
anywhere against Sheik is pretty : ( actually but the escaping CG is a very valid point...

 

[rhan]

Eh. I feel more confortable playing against Sheik at a bigger stage than a small one.

I'd like FD because I can just camp the entire time. Sheik can't really get near you at all if you keep a strong projectile game. And the chain grab isn't all that difficult to break out of. But agains what is the most common Sheik player. One that chain grabs and tilts. Maybe it's just the Sheiks I play. Eh.

Against the most common Sheik FD would be a good stage to ban. But if the Sheik is agressive then I would TOTALLY avoid a small stage.

 

[elvenarrow3000]

Isn't the point of a chaingrab that you... can't break out of it?

 

[Caleb Wolfbrand]

Sheik can't really get near you at all if you keep a strong projectile game.

Gonna have to disagree about that...

Sheik has needles, the gayest projectile in the game, which she can actually out-spam you with at FD. it makes no sense, considering how great and versatile your projectiles are, but she can just toss in a straight line and still somehow be better at it. Sheik is so... grr

Sheik can approach if she wants to. She can ledge stall if she wants to. She can do anything.

Sheik is insanely fast. No amount of projectiles will actually -STOP- her from catching you. Arrows? hard to hit. boomer? she hits it back, blocks with needles, avoids... Bombs? she can toss needles all over you, multi-hits sometimes causing you to drop them on yourself. And like all characters, she -can- grab your bombs.

YL is pretty easy to chaingrab if I'm not mistaken, one grab is pretty much close to a stock against great... I mean... gay Sheiks.

It's a pissy matchup wherever the stage, so I'd say pick/ban whatever you really feel comfortable with. Statistically, Sheik can adapt to anything and beat anyone. Easily one of the most adaptable characters in the game.

Anyway my point is, though YL has his arsenal, Sheik has a force we like to call "gay" which somehow over-rides every cool thing we YL players can do. Not saying YL just loses the match or that no Sheik can lose, just that it's pretty awful at FD when she wants it to be. And the feeling that she can just control the match really blows...



and since I might as well be "The Brinstar Guy" I'll go ahead and admit Sheik is godly there, so avoid that...




jesus I spend too much time thinking about this stuff lol
(combo vid 90 percent done...)

 

[outofdashdwz]

Not to nitpick, but your list right now says B/ Mute City (64) for Peach XD

 

[Laijin]

I've never had a Fox EVER take me to green greens in my 5+ years of playing smash.
Definantly ban Final D or Corneria against Fox.

Also.
Against Peach. Please, always ban Dreamland.
Against Sheik, ban Final D. Chain grabs without platforms = death
Donkey Kong, Ban Yoshi Story. Same with Mario, Link, Pikachu and Mewtwo.

 

[rhan]

Isn't the point of a chaingrab that you... can't break out of it?

At a certian percent if you double stick DI then you can break out of it much easier. But yeah I see where you're getting at.

Gonna have to disagree about that...

Sheik has needles, the gayest projectile in the game, which she can actually out-spam you with at FD. it makes no sense, considering how great and versatile your projectiles are, but she can just toss in a straight line and still somehow be better at it. Sheik is so... grr

Sheik can approach if she wants to. She can ledge stall if she wants to. She can do anything.

Sheik is insanely fast. No amount of projectiles will actually -STOP- her from catching you. Arrows? hard to hit. boomer? she hits it back, blocks with needles, avoids... Bombs? she can toss needles all over you, multi-hits sometimes causing you to drop them on yourself. And like all characters, she -can- grab your bombs.

You might not be able to completly stop her, but you can stop her long enough to continue camping. If she gets's too close then Nair. That'll knock her away for sure then you continue on with the projectile use. If she starts to counter needles with your projectiles then start using the arrows as a block. I found out that a high hop arrow can block her needles.

YL is pretty easy to chaingrab if I'm not mistaken, one grab is pretty much close to a stock against great... I mean... gay Sheiks.

It's a pissy matchup wherever the stage, so I'd say pick/ban whatever you really feel comfortable with. Statistically, Sheik can adapt to anything and beat anyone. Easily one of the most adaptable characters in the game.

If the Sheik's chaingrabs are on point then yes it'll be hard to break out of. Like if they start with a D-throw then a F-tilt, if they know the second grab won't hit, then regrab. It all depends on that fact. Other then that if they don't know how Young Link works, then it'll be easy to break out.

Anyway my point is, though YL has his arsenal, Sheik has a force we like to call "gay" which somehow over-rides every cool thing we YL players can do. Not saying YL just loses the match or that no Sheik can lose, just that it's pretty awful at FD when she wants it to be. And the feeling that she can just control the match really blows...

Controlling the match IS difficult. But once Young Link has control it's quite simple to beat Sheik. Only thing that is slightly difficult is maintaining pressure. Basically if you make the smallest mistake it can lead to fail.

Not to nitpick, but your list right now says B/ Mute City (64) for Peach XD

Good call.

I've never had a Fox EVER take me to green greens in my 5+ years of playing smash.
Definantly ban Final D or Corneria against Fox.

Also.
Against Peach. Please, always ban Dreamland.
Against Sheik, ban Final D. Chain grabs without platforms = death
Donkey Kong, Ban Yoshi Story. Same with Mario, Link, Pikachu and Mewtwo.

Where I'm located these players choose whatever stage that will truly cripple the other player. Green Greens is a very favorable stage for a Marth or Fox players here. I would ban those in a heart beat because of the easy off the top kills and the side zones are so close to the stage.

Again I state that I have an easier time fighting against Sheiks at Final. Dispite their chaingrabs and needles.

Against any huge character with a strong hit it's best to ban a small stage. Mewtwo ban Yoshi's? Explain please. I'm confused.

 

[Caleb Wolfbrand]

I must say, I'm a bit confused about banning Yoshi's against Mario as well as Mewtwo. Mario I can kind of see, but Dair ***** him there.

But Mewtwo...? Err... A dair can ko him there at like what, 40? lol poor Mewtwo... but seriously, why ban? I played M2 a good bit but didn't fight any really.