Would it be better if they made the Advanced Technicues easier?

[Andromeda]

Would it be better if WD, Shuffles and L-cancelling and such stuff were easier to do in Brawl? I mean, it takes time to master the Advanced Technicues in Melee and therefore, not everyone can become pro. But if they made the Advanced Technicues easier to perform in Brawl, would it be better in that way, or would it be to easy to get good?

Spoiler

Sorry if there's any bad spelling here.

 

[Charzendat]

No.

I am not a pro by any lengths, but since none of my friends are either then that doesn't matter. But if they made those techniques easier then their wouldnt be any pros. It would be funny to see some of those arrogent smeg heads get taken down a peg or four, but I think that would just alienate a significant portion of the smash brothers fan base.

 

[LinkGadra]

The techniques aren't difficult to perform now, so making them simpler wouldn't change much. Besides, the application of them is more important then the performance. In other words, it's not what you what you do, it's when you do it.

 

[Malificent]

It would take the skill away from the game. Games have certain techniques for those players who want to go above and beyond. Yes I understand there are people out there that cant do that stuff. But you also have to understand that the pros and other very good players didnt just pick those techniques up. They like many of us practiced them and then they became natural. Making all advanced moves easier would almost take skill out of the game.

 

[Mr.GAW]

I would rather have them be easier then removed completely, but please don't do either, Sakurai.

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

Would it be better if WD, Shuffles and L-cancelling and such stuff were easier to do in Brawl? I mean, it takes time to master the Advanced Technicues in Melee and therefore, not everyone can become pro. But if they made the Advanced Technicues easier to perform in Brawl, would it be better in that way, or would it be to easy to get good?

Spoiler

Sorry if there's any bad spelling here.

It takes time to master those techniques,and that is only a part of what makes a smasher professional.Establishing a good mindset and unpredictability are a larger contribution to competative smash.

Smash advanced techs shouldn't be dumbed down so a few kids off the short bus can play fair.How would it feel to be defeated by someone who is inferior in skill in all manner,and yet you have put so much time and effort into the game.

Think about it,the professionals are professional for a reason.

 

[blueVlaD]

how would they make WD easier?
you sould still have to air dodge as soon as you jump

Shuffles and L-cancelling
how can they make these easier?
you would still need a sense of timing to pull these off...

 

[Fawriel]

Little easier, can't hurt. Although that might just be me. I'm not a hardcore gamer who trains gaming like a Japanese kid trains kendo.
In the end, why would you be defeated by some n00b kid who can somewhat use those techniques although you are superior in skill? Contradictory much? You, too, would be able to use them more easily. And what is important is HOW you use the techniques, not that you CAN use them. You don't practice wavedashing for hours and automatically win every tournament you attend.

On the other hand, it's likely that everything WILL be easier to pull off. Remember how Sakurai implied that he'll make the game slower? There you go.

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

Little easier, can't hurt. Although that might just be me. I'm not a hardcore gamer who trains gaming like a Japanese kid trains kendo.
In the end, why would you be defeated by some n00b kid who can somewhat use those techniques although you are superior in skill? Contradictory much?

Go play more Shieks,kthxbai.

Lol

 

[Andromeda]

It takes time to master those techniques,and that is only a part of what makes a smasher professional.Establishing a good mindset and unpredictability are a larger contribution to competative smash.

Smash advanced techs shouldn't be dumbed down so a few kids off the short bus can play fair.How would it feel to be defeated by someone who is inferior in skill in all manner,and yet you have put so much time and effort into the game.

Think about it,the professionals are professional for a reason.

No, of course, but it sure helps to know advanced techs. But propably you're right, it shouldn't be too easy to become a pro. Only the ones who truly go for it deserves to become it. But I thought that it was at least worth a discussion.

 

[LavisFiend]

...Yea... the only way you can make L-canceling any easier than it already is is by

-not even pressing a button
-have a very loud voice go, "YOU L-CANCELED CORRECTLY!"

same goes for SHFFL...I mean...if you were to try and simplify this acronym, it would end up being
NHFL-No hop fall L-cancel....

See how it makes not a lick of sense? exactly...

You can't make any of them easier than they already are, in terms of button presses, there is no problems... the only problems lie in timing, and that is how it is. You can't even make timing easier than it is, because if you tried, it would negate the whole thing.

 

[Andromeda]

Hm... When I made this thread, I thought of making the WD as easy to do as the roll. For example.

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

Hm... When I made this thread, I thought of making the WD as easy to do as the roll. For example.

You obviously don't understand how easy Melee is to control.Do you know how hard it is to play other tradiitonal 2D fighters?

For Example: In Guilty Gear XX there is technique called Roman Cancel(RC),it allows you to cancel out any lag in a move(There are some exceptions though),but it cost half of your tension gauge.It requiers you to hit any 3 attack buttons but the dust button.And there is also False Roman Cancel(FRC),this cancel has the same effect of a regular RD,and only cost 25% of your tension,but it requiers FRAM PERFECT TIMING!!!

Thats not even the start,you still have:

-Gatling Combo
-Fuzzy Gaurd
-Oki
-Jump Install
-Dust Loops
-Jump Cancels
-Tiger Knee Rotations

All of which are more harder than anything in melee,even the waveshine.

People don't understand how easy they have it in this game.You want to get better?Practice dammit!!

>: (

 

[SmashChu]

Yes and no. While I'd like some to be easier, i think WD should go. Sorry, but it think it's a bit unnatural and gives an un fair advantage to sertain players and characters.

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

Yes and no. While I'd like some to be easier, i think WD should go. Sorry, but it think it's a bit unnatural and gives an un fair advantage to sertain players and characters.

No,it doesn't.

You can WD all day with a character,it won't help you win at all.It depends on how you use it.And the typical"I think WD is unfair" arguement is getting really old.

 

[IM_A_HUSTLA]

to make L-cancels easier would be trouble but stuff like WD and SH can simply be put to like a 1 button kinda thing

Example:

short hop can be programmed into x or y and full jump for the other,
and WD can simply be a L or R thing and u dont have to jump jus press L and diagonal down (kinda like a roll)

and also like the discussion going on about the "roll to egdehog" thing, thats alot easier to do then to WD off or SH off.

but there is problems with this, but it can make the game easier to learn but timing and knowing when to do the atks is when the pros come in!!

 

[Takalth]

There's one condition on which I would strongly agree with the original poster: If they add more advanced techniques and make those hard.

Though in response to some other posts, they could definitely make some of them easier. Give you a few more frames to short hop and l-cancel would certainly make those easier. I don't think wavedashing could realistically be made easier, though, unless they ditched the physics that caused it and made it happen as a result of a button or something (Use the control stick to run or the d-pad to wavedash).

EDIT: The guy above beat me to a couple points.

 

[Illos]

It could help mindgames but it would probably just make the game less skill oriented.

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

Ok,time to view it from a diffirent perspective.

Advanced Techniques are an inevitability,why? Because if more techniques are introduced,the more advanced techs can be created through exploit.

Here is an example: A typical advanced battle tactic is the SHFFL,it consist of 3 easy techniques(The attack can act as an intermediate reaction):

Short Hop
V
Fast Fall
V
L-cancel

All of which are easy,and only requier stringing methods and buffering(Such as in traditional 2D fighters).The same can be said for the wavedash; Jump then air dodge into the ground.How simple is that?

So if any new techniques were to exist,people would just strind those together into a new technique.Advanced techniques aren't themselves as an entity,but as a mass of other techniques.If everyone can use the techniques,they wouldn't be advanced,they would just be techniques.

I feel that people are whining about advanced techniques because they can't learn them instantly.Just practice the freakin' techniques for a while,then they will come with instinct.

Despite how much you want to be pro,not everyone can be.I'm sick of people demanding statuses that they don't deserve,it's either practice and get good,or don't.There is no short cut to professional playing.

Another thing,I wish that GGXX was as easy as smash.1 Button Cancel attacks and easy combo stringing.What's all the complaining about?

 

[Dylan_Tnga]

Would it be better if WD, Shuffles and L-cancelling and such stuff were easier to do in Brawl? I mean, it takes time to master the Advanced Technicues in Melee and therefore, not everyone can become pro. But if they made the Advanced Technicues easier to perform in Brawl, would it be better in that way, or would it be to easy to get good?

Spoiler

Sorry if there's any bad spelling here.

Bad idea, the worst. Shffling is easy, L cancellign is easy, its all easy, wavedashing.. and being able to do these techniques is in no way a garuntee you will win... smash comes down to inante skills and reflexes and strategy in the human mind... people like Aniki will destroy the competition with link, with no wavedashing. Link in 99.8888% of the smash populations hands is a ****ty character and will be easily beaten by any higher tier due to his crappy moves and lag.

The techniques ARE easy to do.. and if you think techniques are the focal point of the game you're wayyy off.

Learning to shffl and etc , is only the beginning of your journey as a smasher, its a great game and it is difficult, not the most difficult fighter in the world, not the easiest at all. Just a great game... dont change that.

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

Bad idea, the worst. Shffling is easy, L cancellign is easy, its all easy, wavedashing.. and being able to do these techniques is in no way a garuntee you will win... smash comes down to inante skills and reflexes and strategy in the human mind... people like Aniki will destroy the competition with link, with no wavedashing. Link in 99.8888% of the smash populations hands is a ****ty character and will be easily beaten by any higher tier due to his crappy moves and lag.

The techniques ARE easy to do.. and if you think techniques are the focal point of the game you're wayyy off.

Learning to shffl and etc , is only the beginning of your journey as a smasher, its a great game and it is difficult, not the most difficult fighter in the world, not the easiest at all. Just a great game... dont change that.

QFT.

I'm also sick of all the complaints in the smash community recently.

C'mon,L-cancel.You just press one button,it's not like your making a huge victorious stride by pressing one button. >_>

 

[BigRick]

To EPF: Well actually I'd say that they should remove L-cancelling. Not because of difficulty, but rather because it adds nothing into the gameplay.

Since you seem to play GGXX, I'd point this as a reference... In that game FRC's/RC's add something to the gameplay because it requires meter (25/50% of tension gauge). So you must carefully choose when to Roman Cancel and ask yourself questions like, should I do it for safety after my attacks, for applying pressure, or should I save it for combos?

In smash, you don't have to choose whether you should L-cancel or not, because L-canceling (Float canceling, auto-canceling) is the best option at all times.

To thread maker: There's nothing wrong if a game is demanding technically, as long as it is still fun at low levels. Less tech actually makes the game's lifespan last shorter. Also, the most important issue you must talk about is gameplay, just like I did here... Saying stuff like ''not every1 could be pro'' is nonsense.

 

[IM_A_HUSTLA]

if L-canceling adds nothing to gameplay then WTF have over 3/4 of the community been L-cancelling for?>????>?>?//.//??

wow that has to go under one of the noobiest things ever said.

i still think Advanced Techniques makes the game competitive.

When i goto tournies me and my crew always make money because we L-cancel, WD, SHFFL, SHL, shine spike, wave shine, pillar, Etc, ETc, ETC.

I'm not saying u must do them, but I havent seen someone who cant do advanced techniques win a tourney with ppl who do them

 

[HideousBeing]

I think most players are agreed- this thread was over before it started. Making advanced techniques easier would be unfair for the players who have worked so hard to perfect the techniques. Imagine for example, that L cancelling on melee allowed 20 frames before hitting the ground instead of 6 (as it is, and as it was). Those who learned in the original would have felt robbed of their hard work if the strategy had been made easier in Melee. Advanced techniques and the use thereof is what helps players distinguish between the dedicated players, and the small-time players.

Also, to the guy two posts above me, L-cancelling is not always the best idea. Link's uair for example, should sometimes not be L-cancelled. Experiment with it, and you'll see why.

 

[BigRick]

Hmm I think I see why, but could you give me more examples? Cause this seems to be just a rare exception.

 

[Takalth]

if L-canceling adds nothing to gameplay then WTF have over 3/4 of the community been L-cancelling for?>????>?>?//.//??

wow that has to go under one of the noobiest things ever said.

You missed his point entirely.

There are times for a short hop and times for a full jump. Times to wavedash and times to use other methods of movement. Sometimes you want to fast fall and sometimes you don't. L-cancelling, on the other hand, is a complete no-brainer. There is never a circumstance where it's better to not l-cancel, therefore, it doesn't add to mind games.

I'm not sure whether I agree (especially since you could say the same thing about wall teching), but it's a fairly good point. Not a complete noob comment.

 

[$ick]

In response to title, no.

 

[Chromeless]

I think most players are agreed- this thread was over before it started. Making advanced techniques easier would be unfair for the players who have worked so hard to perfect the techniques. Imagine for example, that L cancelling on melee allowed 20 frames before hitting the ground instead of 6 (as it is, and as it was). Those who learned in the original would have felt robbed of their hard work if the strategy had been made easier in Melee. Advanced techniques and the use thereof is what helps players distinguish between the dedicated players, and the small-time players.

Also, to the guy two posts above me, L-cancelling is not always the best idea. Link's uair for example, should sometimes not be L-cancelled. Experiment with it, and you'll see why.

I'm with bigrick here, you can argue that you deserve to retain an aspect of skill that you worked for, but personally I feel that the quality of the game mechanics take precedence over any work that is essentually redundent. L-canceling is an essentually useless tech in the sense that it adds nothing to the game's dynamics, it's effectively like playing a dance dance revolution minigame everytime I want to do a basic attack and that is something that I find iritating.

I believe in elegence when it comes to game design, and L-canceling as it is currently implimented is an inelegent gameplay mechanic that is based entierly around muscle memory. If anything making it possible for newbies to take on intermidiate players (that doesn't mean they will win of course) is a good thing because it means you will end up with more people who are on the level of basic competion, but on the other hand it will hardly affect the game at a pro level given that they will always practice that much harder. Link's Uair could simply be 'extended' by holding down A if you really want to keep that specific element, but apart from that I see no reason for the most basic moves in the game to take 4 discrete inputs in order to pull them off.

In my eyes, the quality of the game dynamics are paramount, L-canceling adds nothing to them, it only make your index finger sore while turning people who aren't 'hardcore' off the beauty of advanced play.

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

I can see your point BigRick,but I believe that L-cancel has become an essential tool,and even though it may not add anything to the gameplay system itself,it adds to the level of competative play..such as:

-SHFFL Aerial>Grabs
-Escapes
-Combo attacks
-Ledge hopped attacks

L-cancel has preety much been essential.But in theory,if they did remove lag animations from attacks,then L-cancel wouldn't exist.

 

[DeeDoubleU]

Other than the timing on wavedashing no, and even then its not necessary. As its been said though, it doesn't really matter. The application is more important than the method.

 

[DP's Mario]

Since Brawl's gameplay will be slowed down, it might actually be easy to perform then in Melee. But who knows...Even if it was easier, I doubt anybody would be pros for a while.

 

[Dyse]

I'm hoping for NEW advanced techniques.

 

[Fawriel]

Finally. L-cancelling really does add nothing. Teching, I think, is different, because it's much harder, not just an automated movement you do while performing an attack, you need to react quickly when your opponent unexpectedly hits you against a wall or on the floor. L-cancelling is just a mandatory movement that you need to get into your muscle memory, it's not so much a skill as it is some sort of piece of bullet-proof armor that you need so you don't get shot at a tournament ( analogy ).

 

[Chromeless]

it adds to the level of competative play..such as:

-SHFFL Aerial>Grabs
-Escapes
-Combo attacks
-Ledge hopped attacks

This is an issue that is important, but could ultimately be delt with in more effective ways. The defender already had DI, which can be used as a semi combo breaker, but the only things that limit the attacker from comboing indefinately are the distance each attack puts between the two and the skill level of the attacker.

I personally think that it would be more interesting if longer combos somehow required greater 'precision' to pull off, without affecting other elements of the game. I wouldn't be entierly sure how to go about this though.

 

[OysterMeister]

I think any tech, new or old, should be easy to pull off in Brawl. And by easy, I mean even easier than they already are.
One of the things I admire most about the smash bros system is that any player can pretty much execute every move with any character once they have a passing familiarity with the game. There are no hidden combos, no odd timing required, and no elaborate series of button presses required to pull of a single move. All skill in smash bros comes from how moves are used, not from the fact that they can be used. Other fighting games may require you to master frame-perfect timing an god knows how many button combinations to unlock a characters true potential, but these games also create a huge gulf between the newcomers and the veterans. A newcomer, even if he's the best video game player in the world, has no chance against a veteran in games like these simply because he just doesn't know how to do half the stuff in the game. Smash bros is different. Right off the bat, each player knows how to do every move their character has in smash bros, and it's all a matter of strategy, not skill in pressing buttons.
And for me the advanced techs should become an extension of this ideal. It's not like the techs themselves are so overtly powerful that any beginner can become a master just by using them.
Lets face it: if you play the game a lot, and a noob beats you just because he used Sheik, or spammed smash attacks with the c-stick, or had the same ease at using advanced techs as you, then you suck at the game. Period.

 

[Andromeda]

You obviously don't understand how easy Melee is to control.Do you know how hard it is to play other tradiitonal 2D fighters?

For Example: In Guilty Gear XX there is technique called Roman Cancel(RC),it allows you to cancel out any lag in a move(There are some exceptions though),but it cost half of your tension gauge.It requiers you to hit any 3 attack buttons but the dust button.And there is also False Roman Cancel(FRC),this cancel has the same effect of a regular RD,and only cost 25% of your tension,but it requiers FRAM PERFECT TIMING!!!

Thats not even the start,you still have:

-Gatling Combo
-Fuzzy Gaurd
-Oki
-Jump Install
-Dust Loops
-Jump Cancels
-Tiger Knee Rotations

All of which are more harder than anything in melee,even the waveshine.

People don't understand how easy they have it in this game.You want to get better?Practice dammit!!

>: (

Heh, guess you're right again! Virtually the only fighting games I've only played besides Melee is propably Tekken 2, Dead or Alive and Soul calibur. And then I mean that I've only tested it. But I know that many things in other fighting games are very hard to do, and that Melee is quite simple as a fighting game at all. Melee got 6 out of 10 in a review here in Sweden just because of its simplicy.

 

[Takalth]

One of the things I admire most about the smash bros system is that any player can pretty much execute every move with any character once they have a passing familiarity with the game. There are no hidden combos, no odd timing required, and no elaborate series of button presses required to pull of a single move. All skill in smash bros comes from how moves are used, not from the fact that they can be used. Other fighting games may require you to master frame-perfect timing an god knows how many button combinations to unlock a characters true potential, but these games also create a huge gulf between the newcomers and the veterans. A newcomer, even if he's the best video game player in the world, has no chance against a veteran in games like these simply because he just doesn't know how to do half the stuff in the game. Smash bros is different. Right off the bat, each player knows how to do every move their character has in smash bros, and it's all a matter of strategy, not skill in pressing buttons.

Not true at all. Basic standalone moves are certainly easy, but advanced techniques or special combo tricks can be extremely difficult. Try waveshining somebody across the board without a ton of practice first, or attempt to use Samus's double missile jump or super wavedash (among many other techniques). Even the ability to quickly repeat shuffles in quick succession takes quite a bit of practice before you can consistently get it right.

Put any newcomer (or even somebody who has logged 50 hours of FFA smash in without specific advanced technique practice) against a regular tournament competitor, and no matter how good the new guy is at video games in general or how much he understands the physics of smash, he'll get creamed.

 

[Dylan_Tnga]

Games are challenging. Stop it! *cuts wrist*

/emo

 

[Numa Dude]

Even if they did it wouldn't change anything.

 

[tehSANDMAN]

If advanced techniques were made easier they wouldn't exactly be advanced, now would they?