Wolf vs Luigi.

[Dotcom]

What is the general wolf opinion vs Luigi.

Also if you could how does wolf deal with things like:
Tornado Spam.
High Priority Aerials.
Recovering after Luigi's broken smashes.


Some luigi's have said Luigi has a big advantage versus Wolf and I wanted the Wolf consensus on it.
(as a olimainer swithcing to the greater good of wolf)

 

[ArcPoint]

...Weegee does not have a large advantage over Wolf. No.

What does Weegee have over Wolf that's so overwhelming?

 

[bobson]

Tornado Spam.

Laser spam.

High Priority Aerials.

Higher priority aerials.

Recovering after Luigi's broken smashes.

Landmaster?

As a Luigi second, I don't see what big advantage Luigi could have over Wolf aside from killing earlier.

 

[Seagull Joe]

my bro uses luigi and we verse so much we r on like same level.i am better but versin each other we know what to do.i main wolf he mains luigi. can regularly gimp luigi recovery when forced to side b.also u can shine spike luigi with wolf.laser spam manages to keep him away and fsmash approaches push luigi far back sometimes so a wolf doesnt have to deal with getting shield grabbed.60-40 wolfs favor.also u can easily double or triple bair luigi.

 

[Ishiey]

Combos suck, but the regular strings of attacks can be interrupted by shine. Kill moves are a pain, but wolf is heavy enough to deal with it. Tornado, we can't do much besides laser or shield I guess. The air, I think fair works best for wolf, but luigi has the advantage there. Annoying match, but relatively even if you ask me.

 

[DarkLouis331]

I fought a pretty good Luigi online today in a Gamebattles match. And I found it really hard to fight Luigi in the air, so I tried moving the game to the ground and I ended up winning the set. Don't be afraid to abuse your laser, it can stop the tornado and it outranges Luigi's fireballs.

-Keep Luigi on the ground
-He can combo you at low percentages, so leave some space early in the match and on new stocks...this is where you can use more of your laser.
-Let him approach you sometimes.

 

[SwastikaPyle]

Protip: Online Wigi's are extremely different from offline Luigis.

 

[hippiedude92]

Even better protip : Wifi phails.

Anyways, who said it was a big advantage? I've never heard a luigi say there was a big adv over wolf unless they're completely scrub which i'm believing right now..

it's more of a 45:55 wolf or possibly 50:50. wolf has the ground game and luigi pretty much covers air game.

in all honestly, i still don't see how wolf's bair has like godly range 0.o. it even looks like luigis bair outranges it lol.

 

[ArcPoint]

Wolf's ground game sucks.

And Wolf's Bair is interesting. A lot of aerials are transitional, like Weegee's back air. 1 frame Bair is this much closer to its full extension, another frame it's even closer, and it just gets closer and closer until it reaches full extension of the move. This does not apply to Wolf's Bair, it transitions to a small degree. But 1 frame before the hitbox comes out, Wolf's foot is not extended AT ALL. And he is still in that curled up animation, so his hurtbox is EXTREMELY small. And then one frame later it's fully extended. That's probably why it has that much priority.

Because let's say for example Metaknight spaces his Fair so that it almost hits Wolf's body 1 frame before the actual foot comes out. Now Metaknight's hurtbox is within Bair's range. So when the move comes out, it clashes because Metaknight's Fair is hitting the now extended part of Wolf's leg, while Wolf's leg is also hitting part of Metaknight.

 

[Exceladon City]

Luigi has Utilt and Nair. Utilt=40-60% on Wolf. Nair=COMBO BREAKER. Luigi can be a pain for Wolf.

 

[MidnightAsaph]

Stay out of the air. Luigi can string together nice attacks if you're not DIing well enough. I used to find Luigi hard, but not anymore.

On the ground, Luigi's fail tier. He slides too much, and grabbing becomes hard for him, which is where he would be able start an aerial killing-fest.

I just shield-grab Luigi now. Not hard.

 

[hippiedude92]

Wolf's ground game sucks.

And Wolf's Bair is interesting. A lot of aerials are transitional, like Weegee's back air. 1 frame Bair is this much closer to its full extension, another frame it's even closer, and it just gets closer and closer until it reaches full extension of the move. This does not apply to Wolf's Bair, it transitions to a small degree. But 1 frame before the hitbox comes out, Wolf's foot is not extended AT ALL. And he is still in that curled up animation, so his hurtbox is EXTREMELY small. And then one frame later it's fully extended. That's probably why it has that much priority.

Because let's say for example Metaknight spaces his Fair so that it almost hits Wolf's body 1 frame before the actual foot comes out. Now Metaknight's hurtbox is within Bair's range. So when the move comes out, it clashes because Metaknight's Fair is hitting the now extended part of Wolf's leg, while Wolf's leg is also hitting part of Metaknight.

you has a pic? or slow mo vid? i want to see this. sometimes i always believed people just looked at it by the naked eye and just assume ____ outranges ____

 

[-Mars-]

Stay out of the air. Luigi can string together nice attacks if you're not DIing well enough. I used to find Luigi hard, but not anymore.

On the ground, Luigi's fail tier. He slides too much, and grabbing becomes hard for him, which is where he would be able start an aerial killing-fest.

I just shield-grab Luigi now. Not hard.

Powershielding is amazing.

 

[MidnightAsaph]

Powershielding is amazing.

It's actually better than sex when you powershield an oncoming downb attack from Luigi, and grab him.

 

[hippiedude92]

Powershielding is amazing.

I played D1 in a tourney match. He powershielded 95% (omfg im nub) of my moves. It is amazing

 

[-Mars-]

I played D1 in a tourney match. He powershielded 95% (omfg im nub) of my moves. It is amazing

I wouldn't worry about it too much. Not only is D1 a very good player......Luigi has one of the easier movesets to powershield.

 

[Atash]

While I haven't played as Wolf very much (and thus am not totally familiar with his grab range), I'm pretty sure that it isn't Charizard-sized. A well spaced B-air is nigh impossible to grab. That being said, a full hopped approach from the skies into a shielding wolf would most likely be aimed towards the back. Thus, grabbing a versatile Luigi player should become a situational issue, as it is with grabbing in most match-ups (ie. not the uber long ranged grabber [ex. Oli] or the chaingrabber match-ups [ex. DDD]).

About power-shielding: if you want to bring that up, I'd like to mention that most projectiles with constant speed are easily power-shielded much of the time by someone who knows the hitbox and is paying attention...

As far as I can see, Wolf should not be concerned with approaching - in general, the approaching character is at a disadvantage. Thus, I can consider Wolf to normally be in control of the pace of the match and to be on the defensive most of the time.

That being said, I believe that this match-up plays out, from a broad global perspective, in much the same way that the Snake vs. Luigi match-up plays out. From the get-go, Luigi has no option other than to approach or waste time if the Wolf stands still. Automatic disadvantage to Luigi. However, given that Luigi, once within the bounds of his limited range, can take any opponent into the skies for 0-50% combos (in the case of Wolf, a little more than that due to his weight allowing for more successive U-tilts) and/or massive aerial ****, there exists another area to consider in this match-up; one where Luigi has the advantage.

Thus, again, like the Snake match-up, the question (to me) is where the ratios lie. Is Luigi's superior aerial ability able to counter Wolf's ground defense? A difference here with the Snake match-up, however, is that Wolf's aerials are decent. Then again, the usual rule applies with Luigi's N-air and falling D-air - his priority in the air is godly. So perhaps that can generally be considered a non-issue...

Another difference is that Snake's defense is passive/active, while Wolf's defense is active only. The thing about Wolf's grounded defense, though, is that it can be examined. From a certain distance away, walking towards Wolf, one gradually encounters the different options Wolf has at his disposal. From far away, his laser (generally not going to hit a walking Luigi), his F-smash (which can be powershielded on sight from between three-quarters and its full range given some practice and muscle memory), his F-tilt (IT STOPS TIME!? Really though, deceptively long range and incredibly quick), and then everything else of his.

His laser cuts down heavily on Luigi's approach options. Luigi can either retreat to the air and risk landing in a bad situation, or walk along and shield lasers as they come (observant of any changes in rhythm, hopefully). Going to the air, he suffers from problems with grabbing (which can be avoided by going behind the person), from tilts (thank goodness they're not as bad as Snake's U-tilt), and from the ever entertaining RAOUL!!! (U-smash). Actually, I believe that by coming back down from the air, Luigi has a 50-50 chance of getting control of Wolf's current position by going behind him. By air-dodging into a buffered shield, Wolf can't simply tilt Luigi or smash back (he'll just push Luigi to his finishing position with lag galore for Luigi to follow up on - Luigi is slippery, but not too slippery to capitalize on that). He either has to pivot and manage to pull off a jab, or roll away, or dash away, or something. And then the situation is reset. If he attacks, he can be counterattacked... And then there's Luigi actually attacking out of the fall. Wolf can then either reset the position or attack Luigi out of the air with a tilt. That being said, eventually the air encounters are going to end in someone being hit, and that's the 50-50 chance.

Then there's Luigi approaching on the ground by walking along. If I'm not mistaken, Luigi's fireballs come out at just about the same rate as Wolf's laser (might be a tad bit slower - I'm not entirely sure). The projectiles pass through each other as well... And thus the fireball approach. Not a particularly good approach in light of everything that Wolf can do out of his camp... Really - when walking, it's doubtful that Luigi is in too much danger of Wolf's campy attacks. He's in danger of a blitzkrieg, though... But I'm not going there in this particular post (I might later though).

And with that, I finish my post :-P It's incomplete (and there are a few holes in my arguments as such), but whatever...

EDIT:

After watching some vids, I've come to the realization that Wolf's blitzkrieg tactics can be... absolutely ridiculously strong. That alone just made the above post worth half of what I originally thought it was worth <_<...

 

[ArcPoint]

While I haven't played as Wolf very much (and thus am not totally familiar with his grab range), I'm pretty sure that it isn't Charizard-sized. A well spaced B-air is nigh impossible to grab. That being said, a full hopped approach from the skies into a shielding wolf would most likely be aimed towards the back. Thus, grabbing a versatile Luigi player should become a situational issue, as it is with grabbing in most match-ups (ie. not the uber long ranged grabber [ex. Oli] or the chaingrabber match-ups [ex. DDD]).

You seem to think that grabbing is the only option Wolf has out of a shield. I would like to disagree. Fair, Bair, Nair, and Usmash are all very legitimate and viable options out of shield. Fair's hitbox is absolutely massive by the way.

About power-shielding: if you want to bring that up, I'd like to mention that most projectiles with constant speed are easily power-shielded much of the time by someone who knows the hitbox and is paying attention...

It's a good thing I actually approach with Wolf, cuz powershielding seems to defeat the purpose of spamming blaster.

As far as I can see, Wolf should not be concerned with approaching - in general, the approaching character is at a disadvantage. Thus, I can consider Wolf to normally be in control of the pace of the match and to be on the defensive most of the time.

You can still be aggressive and control the pace of the match. o.O

That being said, I believe that this match-up plays out, from a broad global perspective, in much the same way that the Snake vs. Luigi match-up plays out. From the get-go, Luigi has no option other than to approach or waste time if the Wolf stands still. Automatic disadvantage to Luigi. However, given that Luigi, once within the bounds of his limited range, can take any opponent into the skies for 0-50% combos (in the case of Wolf, a little more than that due to his weight allowing for more successive U-tilts) and/or massive aerial ****, there exists another area to consider in this match-up; one where Luigi has the advantage.

Name these combos. I seem to forget them.

Thus, again, like the Snake match-up, the question (to me) is where the ratios lie. Is Luigi's superior aerial ability able to counter Wolf's ground defense? A difference here with the Snake match-up, however, is that Wolf's aerials are decent. Then again, the usual rule applies with Luigi's N-air and falling D-air - his priority in the air is godly. So perhaps that can generally be considered a non-issue...

WHAT THE HELL. Why in Hell does everybody think WOLF HAS A GOOD GROUND GAME?!??!?!?!?!??!?!! Is it is super punishable Fsmash? Or maybe is really laggy blaster? Or his absolutely broken Ftilt??? WTFFFFFFFFF. Wolf's prowess does NOT lie within his groundgame. His airgame is where Wolf shines. His aerial mobility is absolutely amazing, his Bair has weird mechanics that give it a ton of priority. His Fair is disjointed and has a massive hotbox. He can retreat both of these for a very long distance. He can space these aerials amazingly well. After a rising Bair he can double jump if the case calls for it. I guarantee you that Wolf's Fair beats out Weegee's Nair and Bair.

Another difference is that Snake's defense is passive/active, while Wolf's defense is active only. The thing about Wolf's grounded defense, though, is that it can be examined. From a certain distance away, walking towards Wolf, one gradually encounters the different options Wolf has at his disposal. From far away, his laser (generally not going to hit a walking Luigi), his F-smash (which can be powershielded on sight from between three-quarters and its full range given some practice and muscle memory), his F-tilt (IT STOPS TIME!? Really though, deceptively long range and incredibly quick), and then everything else of his.

Well now, good thing Fsmash isn't considered one of his
"safe" moves. I mean seriously, you can punish Fsmash without even powershielding it, you only have to just regular shield it, that's it, and it's as good as punished (unless you're Yoshi) Bleh, you seem to think that a camping Wolf is impossible to beat. That's why all the good Wolf players have been campers, eh?

His laser cuts down heavily on Luigi's approach options. Luigi can either retreat to the air and risk landing in a bad situation, or walk along and shield lasers as they come (observant of any changes in rhythm, hopefully). Going to the air, he suffers from problems with grabbing (which can be avoided by going behind the person), from tilts (thank goodness they're not as bad as Snake's U-tilt), and from the ever entertaining RAOUL!!! (U-smash). Actually, I believe that by coming back down from the air, Luigi has a 50-50 chance of getting control of Wolf's current position by going behind him. By air-dodging into a buffered shield, Wolf can't simply tilt Luigi or smash back (he'll just push Luigi to his finishing position with lag galore for Luigi to follow up on - Luigi is slippery, but not too slippery to capitalize on that). He either has to pivot and manage to pull off a jab, or roll away, or dash away, or something. And then the situation is reset. If he attacks, he can be counterattacked... And then there's Luigi actually attacking out of the fall. Wolf can then either reset the position or attack Luigi out of the air with a tilt. That being said, eventually the air encounters are going to end in someone being hit, and that's the 50-50 chance.

Where in Hell are you pulling these numbers from? 50-50 chance? These situations are relatively irrelevant because they rely on player prediction/reaction. If you think landing behind Wolf is completely safe, then OoS Bair would like a word with you. But, other than that, these situations are mainly based off of the players. Both have options to capitalize, Wolf is not devoid of OoS options.

Then there's Luigi approaching on the ground by walking along. If I'm not mistaken, Luigi's fireballs come out at just about the same rate as Wolf's laser (might be a tad bit slower - I'm not entirely sure). The projectiles pass through each other as well... And thus the fireball approach. Not a particularly good approach in light of everything that Wolf can do out of his camp... Really - when walking, it's doubtful that Luigi is in too much danger of Wolf's campy attacks. He's in danger of a blitzkrieg, though... But I'm not going there in this particular post (I might later though).

Okay, so camping for either character isn't going to work. W00t.

 

[Ishiey]

Fair's hitbox is beyond massive. I actually think fair is as good as bair, if not better. Amazing move.

Back on topic. Air = Luigi combo time, ground = Wolf being awesome time.

 

[Atash]

You seem to think that grabbing is the only option Wolf has out of a shield. I would like to disagree. Fair, Bair, Nair, and Usmash are all very legitimate and viable options out of shield. Fair's hitbox is absolutely massive by the way.

Read my edit - the idea is that Luigi can combo the bajeezus out of Wolf once he approaches. Also, your RAOUL!!! is epic, there's no arguing about that. Your OoS options are good, given. F-air's hitbox is huge - yes, that it is. Can any of them (save for the RAOUL!!!) beat an N-air?

As for grabs: it was only mentioned because a certain someone was 'lulzing' the match with the idea of an easy grab.

It's a good thing I actually approach with Wolf, cuz powershielding seems to defeat the purpose of spamming blaster.

You don't have to against Luigi - the match up puts Luigi as the approacher rather than the defender. If you want to go ahead and approach someone with godly priority in the air with an air game or with decent pivot grabs on the ground, go ahead and take the statistical disadvantage.

You can still be aggressive and control the pace of the match. o.O

Note my edit - I agree that Wolf can blitzkrieg the opponent. Staying too long nearby Luigi, however, is asking for punishment without resetting your position to where Luigi can't touch you.

Name these combos. I seem to forget them.

U-tilt from 0% to around 25% (if I remember correctly - I tested this a while back, didn't think I'd need to remember the numbers so I might be off by +-5%) against Wolf (no DI - but seriously, DI in the space of three U-tilts? you'd probably be followed from the ground and then receive the remainder of the combo) with hitstun leading the way due to the lupine's massive weight. After that point, it's basically jumping into the air and pushing in the direction of the foe. I'm going to make the assumption that Wolf can't DI as fast as Wario and say that there's a decent chance that, upon hitting the ground after a few U-airs and/or F-airs (disregarding your second jump), you'll be within range for an F-tilt. With your second jump, Luigi can follow with his second jump and pull out a N-air to send you straight upwards (and N-air comes out as fast or faster than all of your aerials), fast-fall, and punish your landing. I'm doubtful that any of your attacks come out fast enough or are effective enough to break the early strings (save for your N-air and B-air [ignoring your U-air - rarely would you be in the air and strung up in a Luigi combo with the Luigi above you], and from what I'm hearing, it's worse off than your B-air which trades hits with our B-air which is worse in priority than our N-air which also has less priority than the tip of our D-air... see the chain?). Your shine, however... that's an interesting move. I'm wondering how much vertical range it has, personally...

WHAT THE HELL. Why in Hell does everybody think WOLF HAS A GOOD GROUND GAME?!??!?!?!?!??!?!! Is it is super punishable Fsmash? Or maybe is really laggy blaster? Or his absolutely broken Ftilt??? WTFFFFFFFFF. Wolf's prowess does NOT lie within his groundgame. His airgame is where Wolf shines. His aerial mobility is absolutely amazing, his Bair has weird mechanics that give it a ton of priority. His Fair is disjointed and has a massive hotbox. He can retreat both of these for a very long distance. He can space these aerials amazingly well. After a rising Bair he can double jump if the case calls for it. I guarantee you that Wolf's Fair beats out Weegee's Nair and Bair.

And I guarantee you're wrong. If you want to argue so vehemently, test it (a guarantee isn't good enough). I'm currently incapable of doing so. As for his F-air, he can't short hop it without landing (note: end lag), and it's not particularly useful to break an early string (you'll probably be above Luigi by the time you realize you're on the receiving end of a combo). As for using it as an attack during an assault... I'm not going into that (yet). Anyway... I've played as Wolf a little bit, and really... As far as I can tell from my dabbling, his ground game is definitely better than Luigi's, and that's all that matters in this match-up.

Well now, good thing Fsmash isn't considered one of his
"safe" moves. I mean seriously, you can punish Fsmash without even powershielding it, you only have to just regular shield it, that's it, and it's as good as punished (unless you're Yoshi) Bleh, you seem to think that a camping Wolf is impossible to beat. That's why all the good Wolf players have been campers, eh?

Note: blitzkrieg. I've seen Wolf players go on the offensive and shine against people with great projectile games. However - why take that risk against Luigi? The general consensus is that Luigi's lackluster yet decent ground game fails to Wolf's ground game. In this case, this match-up, Wolf's ground game is amazing. His laser breaks approaches. It might not do so for other match-ups where characters happen to have a more diffuse ability to deal damage - but with Luigi, he must get close to do anything, and he shines blindingly once he gets there. So then, why take the extra risk of approaching someone who can pull out grounded attacks (albeit with less range) just as fast as you, aerials faster than you, has higher priority aerials, when you can sit still and be gay with your laser and subsequent opportunist blitzkriegs (with an emphasis on 'opportunist')?

Where in Hell are you pulling these numbers from? 50-50 chance? These situations are relatively irrelevant because they rely on player prediction/reaction. If you think landing behind Wolf is completely safe, then OoS Bair would like a word with you. But, other than that, these situations are mainly based off of the players. Both have options to capitalize, Wolf is not devoid of OoS options.

I failed to mention that I was speaking in terms of randomness. A given situation with two options and two orthogonal outcomes will have a 100% / 2 = 50% chance of happening either way (either argue that the two situations are not orthogonal or agree with the division :-P). Also, I wasn't saying that Wolf was devoid of OoS options - that's why I said he could either attack or defend. When any character is landing behind any other character, there is no grab, there is no quick jab (without a good pivot), there's only retreating (maybe attacking while retreating, but that'd only apply to jumping away which takes valuable time and is asking for either punishment or a clank [Luigi's head happens to be pretty hard, and his U-tilt clanks with M.K.'s glide attack - it'd probably clank with Wolf's B-air]), tilting, or smashing. Thus, it's based on prediction, and Luigi controls the events once the situation reaches that point (Wolf is then on the reacting side). Hence given two players of equal predictive ability, or two players who cannot be predicted, there's going to be a 50-50 chance. As far as I'm aware, match-up discussions are about two players of equal skill, yes?

Okay, so camping for either character isn't going to work. W00t.

Again: only mentioned because a certain someone was 'lulzing' the match with the idea of an easy grab.

By your argument about Wolf's ground game being less than his air game and by the consistent public consensus that Luigi's air game is better than Wolf's air game, I'm seeing a match-up between 50:50 and 60:40 in Wolf's favor, simply because of Luigi's approach problems. If it weren't for Wolf's ability to blitzkrieg, I'd have said a definite 50:50 - but ****, good Wolf's are crazy to watch.

Also - yeah... Specific moves ought to be tested - but in general, 5:5 <-> 6:4 Wolf.

 

[C.box]

And I guarantee you're wrong. If you want to argue so vehemently, test it (a guarantee isn't good enough). I'm currently incapable of doing so. As for his F-air, he can't short hop it without landing (note: end lag), and it's not particularly useful to break an early string (you'll probably be above Luigi by the time you realize you're on the receiving end of a combo). As for using it as an attack during an assault... I'm not going into that (yet). Anyway... I've played as Wolf a little bit, and really... As far as I can tell from my dabbling, his ground game is definitely better than Luigi's, and that's all that matters in this match-up.

Wolf can short hop fair with no lag <_<. You just need to do it really fast.

 

[ArcPoint]

Read my edit - the idea is that Luigi can combo the bajeezus out of Wolf once he approaches. Also, your RAOUL!!! is epic, there's no arguing about that. Your OoS options are good, given. F-air's hitbox is huge - yes, that it is. Can any of them (save for the RAOUL!!!) beat an N-air?
As for grabs: it was only mentioned because a certain someone was 'lulzing' the match with the idea of an easy grab.

I believe I stated somewhere that Fair will beat out Nair... but I'll say it again: Fair will more than likely beat out Nair. Even as such, Nair has landing lag, which can be capitalized on even if he's out of grab range. And as for the whole grab thing: Lol, the Wolf boards are scrubs, don't take them seriously.

You don't have to against Luigi - the match up puts Luigi as the approacher rather than the defender. If you want to go ahead and approach someone with godly priority in the air with an air game or with decent pivot grabs on the ground, go ahead and take the statistical disadvantage.

How is Wolf at a statistical disadvantage when he can well space Bairs/retreating Fair at your shield/spotdodge without fear of punishment? How is Luigi at a disadvantage when he can retreating Bair at Wolf's shield/spotdodge without fear of punishment? ( I would name more, but I'm not sure if Dair to airdodge or some other move is difficult to punish)

Note my edit - I agree that Wolf can blitzkrieg the opponent. Staying too long nearby Luigi, however, is asking for punishment without resetting your position to where Luigi can't touch you.

This is pertaining to player prediction/reaction. Both have options to capitalize on each other in the event that they are close up. The rest is up to the players.

U-tilt from 0% to around 25% (if I remember correctly - I tested this a while back, didn't think I'd need to remember the numbers so I might be off by +-5%) against Wolf (no DI - but seriously, DI in the space of three U-tilts? you'd probably be followed from the ground and then receive the remainder of the combo) with hitstun leading the way due to the lupine's massive weight. After that point, it's basically jumping into the air and pushing in the direction of the foe. I'm going to make the assumption that Wolf can't DI as fast as Wario and say that there's a decent chance that, upon hitting the ground after a few U-airs and/or F-airs (disregarding your second jump), you'll be within range for an F-tilt. With your second jump, Luigi can follow with his second jump and pull out a N-air to send you straight upwards (and N-air comes out as fast or faster than all of your aerials), fast-fall, and punish your landing. I'm doubtful that any of your attacks come out fast enough or are effective enough to break the early strings (save for your N-air and B-air [ignoring your U-air - rarely would you be in the air and strung up in a Luigi combo with the Luigi above you], and from what I'm hearing, it's worse off than your B-air which trades hits with our B-air which is worse in priority than our N-air which also has less priority than the tip of our D-air... see the chain?). Your shine, however... that's an interesting move. I'm wondering how much vertical range it has, personally...

Vertical range is irrelevant, the few frames of invincibility, are. I'm not sure on the combos, I know Utilt is one, I'm doubtful of the aerial ones. Wolf's shine + Lack of hitstun ensure that no "combos" get him, however you can predict the shine and then punish accordingly,

And I guarantee you're wrong. If you want to argue so vehemently, test it (a guarantee isn't good enough). I'm currently incapable of doing so. As for his F-air, he can't short hop it without landing (note: end lag), and it's not particularly useful to break an early string (you'll probably be above Luigi by the time you realize you're on the receiving end of a combo). As for using it as an attack during an assault... I'm not going into that (yet). Anyway... I've played as Wolf a little bit, and really... As far as I can tell from my dabbling, his ground game is definitely better than Luigi's, and that's all that matters in this match-up.

Every option each character has is relevant in a matchup. Wolf may have more range and disjointedness in his ground moveset, but his aerial options aren't lacking. Wolf CAN shorthop a Fair and receive ZERO (Except for the 3 frames of default landing lag) landing lag. So basically Wolf has lagless aerials on both sides of him. Both with awkward properties which give them a fair amount of priority. If you're on the receiving end of a combo, I tend to do shine, not Fair.

Note: blitzkrieg. I've seen Wolf players go on the offensive and shine against people with great projectile games. However - why take that risk against Luigi? The general consensus is that Luigi's lackluster yet decent ground game fails to Wolf's ground game. In this case, this match-up, Wolf's ground game is amazing. His laser breaks approaches. It might not do so for other match-ups where characters happen to have a more diffuse ability to deal damage - but with Luigi, he must get close to do anything, and he shines blindingly once he gets there. So then, why take the extra risk of approaching someone who can pull out grounded attacks (albeit with less range) just as fast as you, aerials faster than you, has higher priority aerials, when you can sit still and be gay with your laser and subsequent opportunist blitzkriegs (with an emphasis on 'opportunist')?

I disagree with the "higher priority aerials" thing. That is untrue, Wolf's Fair is disjointed, Luigi does not have a trace of disjointedness in has aerial moveset (Save for his Nair). And Wolf's Bair as previously stated...(somewhere xD) has a non-transitional animation, meaning that his foot doesn't continually get closer to full extension, whereas Luigi's Bair, and Fair, do. Luigi has defensive options to completely get around laser spamming without getting hit, end of story. As previously stated, Luigi does NOT have higher priority aerials than Wolf, Wolf does NOT gain ANY advantage by sitting there and being gay, other than frustrating the opponent. Wolf's ground game is absolute CRAP against an opponent who actually knows the matchup. The only thing it's good for is punishing lag, that is IT. Why should I wait for Weegee to go on the offensive when I can approach (very safely, mind you) and put Weegee on the DEFENSIVE.

I failed to mention that I was speaking in terms of randomness. A given situation with two options and two orthogonal outcomes will have a 100% / 2 = 50% chance of happening either way (either argue that the two situations are not orthogonal or agree with the division :-P). Also, I wasn't saying that Wolf was devoid of OoS options - that's why I said he could either attack or defend. When any character is landing behind any other character, there is no grab, there is no quick jab (without a good pivot), there's only retreating (maybe attacking while retreating, but that'd only apply to jumping away which takes valuable time and is asking for either punishment or a clank [Luigi's head happens to be pretty hard, and his U-tilt clanks with M.K.'s glide attack - it'd probably clank with Wolf's B-air]), tilting, or smashing. Thus, it's based on prediction, and Luigi controls the events once the situation reaches that point (Wolf is then on the reacting side). Hence given two players of equal predictive ability, or two players who cannot be predicted, there's going to be a 50-50 chance. As far as I'm aware, match-up discussions are about two players of equal skill, yes?

I don't know about anyone else in the world, but when I'm discussing matchups, I assume that the two players in question: Know the matchup inside and out, they know what each options they and the opponent have, I also assume that they have predicting skills and the same thing over and over won't work.... To be honest, I hate discussing matchups, they are annoying. Wolf can retreating Bair OoS, which is very effective mind you. And Utilt clanking with glide attacks doesn't mean anything, Metaknight's glide attack clanks with a LOT of crap. It also clank with Wolf's Jab, does this mean Jab has Godly priority? (It is disjointed though ^_^ )

Again: only mentioned because a certain someone was 'lulzing' the match with the idea of an easy grab.

Yeah, the Wolf boards are scrubs, don't listen to 'em.

By your argument about Wolf's ground game being less than his air game and by the consistent public consensus that Luigi's air game is better than Wolf's air game, I'm seeing a match-up between 50:50 and 60:40 in Wolf's favor, simply because of Luigi's approach problems. If it weren't for Wolf's ability to blitzkrieg, I'd have said a definite 50:50 - but ****, good Wolf's are crazy to watch.

This is why you don't listen to the boards, the consensus means nothing if it's wrong. Which I believe Wolf's air game has more priority than Weegee's. Weegee does NOT have approaching problems, Brawl's defensive options are too great. Either way, I think the matchup is 90:10 in favor of the better player, the 10 being that one in every 10 match where crap happens.

To me matchup numbers are irrelevant. I only know: Not winnable, I have crap against that character that's hard to deal with, they have crap against me that's hard to deal with, and winnable.

 

[Atash]

I believe I stated somewhere that Fair will beat out Nair... but I'll say it again: Fair will more than likely beat out Nair. Even as such, Nair has landing lag, which can be capitalized on even if he's out of grab range. And as for the whole grab thing: Lol, the Wolf boards are scrubs, don't take them seriously.

You're right - tested it. However, N-air auto-cancels very easily, so I doubt it's any more able to be capitalized on than your retreating F-airs.

How is Wolf at a statistical disadvantage when he can well space Bairs/retreating Fair at your shield/spotdodge without fear of punishment? How is Luigi at a disadvantage when he can retreating Bair at Wolf's shield/spotdodge without fear of punishment? ( I would name more, but I'm not sure if Dair to airdodge or some other move is difficult to punish)

He's not - apparently everything I knew about Luigi's aerials against Wolf's is wrong... All of Luigi's aerials and Wolf's aerials trade hits (save for Wolf's F-air, due to disjointedness). The only disadvantage now that I see is that Wolf has a lot of momentum and can get stuck committed to his attack (punishment -.-' ). Both characters are probably going to be pushing for the offensive.

This is pertaining to player prediction/reaction. Both have options to capitalize on each other in the event that they are close up. The rest is up to the players.

We're assuming that they're equivalent, but besides that, Wolf really cannot keep close to Luigi - Luigi's aerials tend to drag the opponent upwards to his U-air combo-zone (N-air, F-air at low damages, grounded D-air spike [plausible but negligible...], U-air itself), and they can all come out twice in a single short-hop - they're all fast, and they all can lead into one another via hitstun.

Vertical range is irrelevant, the few frames of invincibility, are. I'm not sure on the combos, I know Utilt is one, I'm doubtful of the aerial ones. Wolf's shine + Lack of hitstun ensure that no "combos" get him, however you can predict the shine and then punish accordingly,

Tested - and I hate you :-P However, I did notice that Wolf couldn't perform any action for a brief amount of time after letting go of the reflector, and that Luigi could capitalize (using that word way too much - there's got to be a better word) on that by spamming -.-'.

Also, U-tilt from 0-36% without DI against Wolf seems to proceed with full hit-stun. Another 10% can be tacked on with a N-air initiated at the moment of Luigi's jump. Luigi does have a combo against Wolf - but due to the trade of hits on all of their aerials... Blargh.

Every option each character has is relevant in a matchup. Wolf may have more range and disjointedness in his ground moveset, but his aerial options aren't lacking. Wolf CAN shorthop a Fair and receive ZERO (Except for the 3 frames of default landing lag) landing lag. So basically Wolf has lagless aerials on both sides of him. Both with awkward properties which give them a fair amount of priority. If you're on the receiving end of a combo, I tend to do shine, not Fair.

Wolf has a lagless aerial that's committed - that's what I meant by end-lag. Once he uses it, the rest of his jump is nulled. Not necessarily bad - Luigi slides around a lot so the jump time is negligible... Regarding shine; yeah.

I disagree with the "higher priority aerials" thing. That is untrue, Wolf's Fair is disjointed, Luigi does not have a trace of disjointedness in has aerial moveset (Save for his Nair). And Wolf's Bair as previously stated...(somewhere xD) has a non-transitional animation, meaning that his foot doesn't continually get closer to full extension, whereas Luigi's Bair, and Fair, do. Luigi has defensive options to completely get around laser spamming without getting hit, end of story. As previously stated, Luigi does NOT have higher priority aerials than Wolf, Wolf does NOT gain ANY advantage by sitting there and being gay, other than frustrating the opponent. Wolf's ground game is absolute CRAP against an opponent who actually knows the matchup. The only thing it's good for is punishing lag, that is IT. Why should I wait for Weegee to go on the offensive when I can approach (very safely, mind you) and put Weegee on the DEFENSIVE.

The animation issue is almost a null issue - Wolf's start time is longer than Luigi's start time. They both seem to come out to full extension (with Luigi's being slightly longer due to his bigger shoes >_< ) at the same time. *note* I didn't consult any references for that - so I may be wrong (was based only on my unorthodox testing).

I don't know about anyone else in the world, but when I'm discussing matchups, I assume that the two players in question: Know the matchup inside and out, they know what each options they and the opponent have, I also assume that they have predicting skills and the same thing over and over won't work.... To be honest, I hate discussing matchups, they are annoying. Wolf can retreating Bair OoS, which is very effective mind you. And Utilt clanking with glide attacks doesn't mean anything, Metaknight's glide attack clanks with a LOT of crap. It also clank with Wolf's Jab, does this mean Jab has Godly priority? (It is disjointed though ^_^ )

What about clanking with Kirby's F-smash (O_O)...? Anyway, Luigi's U-tilt clanks with every single one of Wolf's smashes, with his tilts, and... well, everything. Your jabs and their annoying disjointedness, however... blargh. They'd come out too fast to repeatedly U-tilt clank them over and over again. And besides - as far as I'm aware, no one uses U-tilt to clank attacks anyway, so my point is basically void.

Yeah, the Wolf boards are scrubs, don't listen to 'em.

-.-' Kay...

This is why you don't listen to the boards, the consensus means nothing if it's wrong. Which I believe Wolf's air game has more priority than Weegee's. Weegee does NOT have approaching problems, Brawl's defensive options are too great. Either way, I think the matchup is 90:10 in favor of the better player, the 10 being that one in every 10 match where crap happens.

Didn't I just say that the match-up numbers are based on equivalent players? If they're equivalent players and it's 90:10 in favor of the better player while considering characters that are invariant with respect to that ratio, then the match-up itself for the characters is 50:50.

To me matchup numbers are irrelevant. I only know: Not winnable, I have crap against that character that's hard to deal with, they have crap against me that's hard to deal with, and winnable.

Rough numerical translation:
0-100 through 30-70
30-70 through 50-50
50-50 through 70-30
70-30 through 100-0

Although - winnable applies to any of the last three. Really, I don't see what you could have against match-up numbers other than that they're in a format you don't appreciate. But - I'm getting off the point of the thread...

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I concede to Wolf having a general (possible negligible) advantage on-stage. What about off-stage?

 

[hippiedude92]

Even if wolf's trys to space his aerials, he's gonna eat a pivot grab. Yup.

 

[ArcPoint]

What? Shield release time + Dash time + Pivot time + grab startup time.

 

[hippiedude92]

What? Shield release time + Dash time + Pivot time + grab startup time.

Pivot grab has shield release time? I don't recall that. The other 2 maybe.

 

[ArcPoint]

Well, I'm assuming you can't dash straight out of shield (Can you...?)

 

[xxCANDYxx]

wow ppl are writing alot lol
i dont have much to say...except that i play with boss all the time....and wer both in the same level of skill.....and whenever that matchup is luigi vs wolf he usually ***** me haha...iono y

 

[hippiedude92]

Well, I'm assuming you can't dash straight out of shield (Can you...?)

I think me or you (or both) (most likely me since im a nub) misunderstood the post lol.

 

[ArcPoint]

wow ppl are writing alot lol
i dont have much to say...except that i play with boss all the time....and wer both in the same level of skill.....and whenever that matchup is luigi vs wolf he usually ***** me haha...iono y

Maybe because Boss is good, and you're better with Snake o.O