Social Wolf Social Discussion

[Seagull Joe]

I will be the one to take you down.

 

[Rizen]

I will be the one to take you down.

...who're you talking to?

 

[valkiriforce]

I will be the one to take you down.

Speaking of this quote, we haven't yet heard Wolf's unique lines towards Fox and Falco during his final smash. I'm also curious if they kept their exchanges on the victory screen in some form.

 

[Rizen]

Speaking of this quote,

Oh I see. The things I miss being a Link main. :/

 

[Wyoming]

So far I am impressed by him. I was worried they'd balance him out like Sm4sh Falco, but he still has quick and nimble moves in his kit.

New fsmash kind of sucks. Even in terms of animation I don't see why they changed it. Usmash is about the same but actually looks crisp. Dtilt I feel will be a great starter. Laser looks very useful, and side-B will be fun to pull off reads or long-distance sneak attacks.
Is he in free fall if Wolf Flash connects to no one?

 

[valkiriforce]

Found this interesting video about Wolf earlier:

 

[Seagull Joe]

Found this interesting video about Wolf earlier:

Sick. M2k used clips of me.

 

[Ffamran]

Look at this thievery. Falco is the lowest of the low.

Spoiler: Ultimate Falco's stolen Bair

Spoiler: Brawl and Ultimate Wolf Bair

In all seriousness, I have no idea why they did this. 64 Fox's Bair died with Brawl Falco. Nobody has the move anymore even as a Nair as Smash 4 Sheik's Bair no longer has a front hitbox and Smash 4 Falco's Bair was almost Brawl Wolf's Bair in animation, but functionally was different as a ridiculous frame 4 aerial with high knockback growth. Now, they took it even further by changing the way his upper body was positioned in Smash 4 to make it look even closer to Brawl Wolf's Bair. Falco's right arm is out more while Wolf crosses it over his body in Brawl and their left leg are positioned slightly different, but otherwise, they're the same kick. It used to be Falco would awkwardly look behind him with his body upright.

Frame data wise, it hasn't been confirmed yet because no other footage that is 60 FPS with Falco using Bair exists and we can't datamine anything with game not being out, but some people are saying Ultimate Falco's Bair is slower than in the previous games where it was frame 4 and that its knockback seems weaker than in Smash 4. For instance, ZSS looks like she was hit by a regular aerial or a late hit Smash 4 Falco Bair at 63.6% than Smash 4's explosive clean Bair in the video where the screenshot comes from: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hS8wX_v_p0s.

There are so many other kicks they could have used or even a wing slash or something, but nope, let's complete what was started in Smash 4. The best part is that, if Bair really is weaker, then Falco loses a kill move. In fact, Falco probably lost two with Dair being weaker overall for being faster, so this dude no longer has any strong kill aerials. They'll kill off-stage and near the blast zone, but so will any aerial really. Hey, that's what you get for stealing what isn't yours.

Wolf on the other hand was given a new Bair in animation and frame data. The frame 13 startup and it looking like it's stronger than his old Bair makes me think of Sonic's Bair which is frame 13 on startup. It's probably not going to function like Brawl Bair and neither is Falco's new Bair for that matter with his probably lower air speed and higher hop and jump heights. That said, Wolf still has Fair and his new Nair, but they're not going to fulfill the niche Brawl Bair did which at this point I think only belongs to DK now since DK and Wolf had similar Bairs.

 

[Seagull Joe]

Look at this thievery. Falco is the lowest of the low.

Spoiler: Ultimate Falco's stolen Bair

Spoiler: Brawl and Ultimate Wolf Bair

In all seriousness, I have no idea why they did this. 64 Fox's Bair died with Brawl Falco. Nobody has the move anymore even as a Nair as Smash 4 Sheik's Bair no longer has a front hitbox and Smash 4 Falco's Bair was almost Brawl Wolf's Bair in animation, but functionally was different as a ridiculous frame 4 aerial with high knockback growth. Now, they took it even further by changing the way his upper body was positioned in Smash 4 to make it look even closer to Brawl Wolf's Bair. Falco's right arm is out more while Wolf crosses it over his body in Brawl and their left leg are positioned slightly different, but otherwise, they're the same kick. It used to be Falco would awkwardly look behind him with his body upright.

Frame data wise, it hasn't been confirmed yet because no other footage that is 60 FPS with Falco using Bair exists and we can't datamine anything with game not being out, but some people are saying Ultimate Falco's Bair is slower than in the previous games where it was frame 4 and that its knockback seems weaker than in Smash 4. For instance, ZSS looks like she was hit by a regular aerial or a late hit Smash 4 Falco Bair at 63.6% than Smash 4's explosive clean Bair in the video where the screenshot comes from: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hS8wX_v_p0s.

There are so many other kicks they could have used or even a wing slash or something, but nope, let's complete what was started in Smash 4. The best part is that, if Bair really is weaker, then Falco loses a kill move. In fact, Falco probably lost two with Dair being weaker overall for being faster, so this dude no longer has any strong kill aerials. They'll kill off-stage and near the blast zone, but so will any aerial really. Hey, that's what you get for stealing what isn't yours.

Wolf on the other hand was given a new Bair in animation and frame data. The frame 13 startup and it looking like it's stronger than his old Bair makes me think of Sonic's Bair which is frame 13 on startup. It's probably not going to function like Brawl Bair and neither is Falco's new Bair for that matter with his probably lower air speed and higher hop and jump heights. That said, Wolf still has Fair and his new Nair, but they're not going to fulfill the niche Brawl Bair did which at this point I think only belongs to DK now since DK and Wolf had similar Bairs.

I'll make it work. I have 3000 ideas for Bair specifically.

 

[Arthur97]

So far I am impressed by him. I was worried they'd balance him out like Sm4sh Falco, but he still has quick and nimble moves in his kit.

New fsmash kind of sucks. Even in terms of animation I don't see why they changed it. Usmash is about the same but actually looks crisp. Dtilt I feel will be a great starter. Laser looks very useful, and side-B will be fun to pull off reads or long-distance sneak attacks.
Is he in free fall if Wolf Flash connects to no one?

I think he was in the Treehouse Simon vs. Wolf fight.

Edit: Yeah, about 1:23.
https://youtu.be/2IiT_UD96r0

 

[Chiroz]

So far I am impressed by him. I was worried they'd balance him out like Sm4sh Falco, but he still has quick and nimble moves in his kit.

New fsmash kind of sucks. Even in terms of animation I don't see why they changed it. Usmash is about the same but actually looks crisp. Dtilt I feel will be a great starter. Laser looks very useful, and side-B will be fun to pull off reads or long-distance sneak attacks.
Is he in free fall if Wolf Flash connects to no one?

My question would be, is he in free fall when it connects? Because if not then we could have cool off stage Wolf Flashes.

 

[Rizen]

Sick. M2k used clips of me.

Good stuff.


I usually go traditional colors, except dark Mewtwo and blue zard. Maybe I'll break the habit and try new skins in SSBU.

 

[JesseMcCloud]

My question would be, is he in free fall when it connects? Because if not then we could have cool off stage Wolf Flashes.

I wish, but I doubt it. Otherwise the Treehouse staff would have said something.

 

[Sol0ke]

Just because the Treehouse doesn't say anything means it's not possible. For example, Ike side b being able to be act out of on hit in 4 was never mentioned by Nintendo or Treehouse.

 

[Rizen]

I'm still reeling from Bair being f13; that's only 1 frame faster than Link's Fair. Not a fast move. Hopefully it got a power buff at least.

 

[meleebrawler]

I'm still reeling from Bair being f13; that's only 1 frame faster than Link's Fair. Not a fast move. Hopefully it got a power buff at least.

That seems to be the trend with Wolf in this game: his moves deal fewer hits on average but are punchier than in Brawl. Probably to emphasize him being the heavy-hitter of the space animal trio (Fox is the fastest and Falco is in the middle).

 

[JesseMcCloud]

Just because the Treehouse doesn't say anything means it's not possible. For example, Ike side b being able to be act out of on hit in 4 was never mentioned by Nintendo or Treehouse.

I'm just saying that since one of the Treehouse team (I forget his name) specifically pointed out that Wolf Flash puts you in free fall, he would probably have added "unless you hit something." But he didn't, so it's safest to assume that isn't the case.
I'd love to be wrong though.

 

[Chiroz]

I'm just saying that since one of the Treehouse team (I forget his name) specifically pointed out that Wolf Flash puts you in free fall, he would probably have added "unless you hit something." But he didn't, so it's safest to assume that isn't the case.
I'd love to be wrong though.

To be fair, his exact words would actually lead me to believe that Side-B only goes into free fall if you get hit while doing it, so we can’t take the exact use of his words as any proof.

 

[JesseMcCloud]

To be fair, his exact words would actually lead me to believe that Side-B only goes into free fall if you get hit while doing it, so we can’t take the exact use of his words as any proof.

Now you're just being asinine. All he said was, "If you get caught with that Side B, you can't actually act afterward. So you're in trouble." That's word for word.
Just watch the video. Wolf goes off the side with Wolf Flash, goes into free fall, and dies. No one said anything about any circumstance where it doesn't result in freefall.

 

[Chiroz]

Now you're just being asinine. All he said was, "If you get caught with that Side B, you can't actually act afterward. So you're in trouble." That's word for word.
Just watch the video. Wolf goes off the side with Wolf Flash, goes into free fall, and dies. No one said anything about any circumstance where it doesn't result in freefall.

Being asinine? He says: "If you get caught" and from the context of the sentence, the subject is definitely Wolf. So he is saying: "If Wolf is caught, Wolf can't actually act afterwards. So Wolf is in trouble". His whole premise is based on the fact that Wolf "is caught" in order to be true.

Also, implying there is an if, means that there are some cases where you don't get caught and you can actually act out of it. I am smart/logical enough to assume that the guy just phrased his whole sentence wrong and didn't actually communicate the idea he wanted to communicate, but as I said:

"his exact words would actually lead me to believe that Side-B only goes into free fall if you get hit while doing it".

 

[Rizen]

SideB=Freefalling. The end.

 

[JesseMcCloud]

SideB=Freefalling. The end.

THANK YOU.

 

[Chiroz]

THANK YOU.

Whether that’s true or not wasn’t was what being discussed though.

The point that was trying to be made is specifically the reason you believe Side-B goes into free fall is not solid in any way and you just ignored it completely.

Like his post in no way helps your argument.

 

[WolfCypher]

WOW I'm tired of this discussion so is anyone else concerned that two-thirds of Wolf's Smash Attacks are slow?

 

[JesseMcCloud]

Whether that’s true or not wasn’t was what being discussed though.

The point that was trying to be made is specifically the reason you believe Side-B goes into free fall is not solid in any way and you just ignored it completely.

Like his post in no way helps your argument.

Yeah, I'm just ignoring you now Raykz. I gave you all the evidence anyone needs to agree with my stance, and you're making up what-if scenarios that are neither plausible nor realistic.

WOW I'm tired of this discussion so is anyone else concerned that two-thirds of Wolf's Smash Attacks are slow?

FSmash is the only really slow one, and even then it's not too bad. I think they're trying to solidify Wolf as the strongest but slowest Star Fox rep.

 

[WolfCypher]

Down smash used to come out Meta Knight fast in Brawl, but it looks about as slow/fast as Ganondorf's new Down Smash.

Also I remember in Brawl with the Star Fox characters, Fox had the strongest Up smash of the three, Falco had the strongest Forward smash of the three, and Wolf had the strongest Down smash of the three. I want that to continue in SSBU.

 

[JesseMcCloud]

Down smash used to come out Meta Knight fast in Brawl, but it looks about as slow/fast as Ganondorf's new Down Smash.

Also I remember in Brawl with the Star Fox characters, Fox had the strongest Up smash of the three, Falco had the strongest Forward smash of the three, and Wolf had the strongest Down smash of the three. I want that to continue in SSBU.

I'd say it looks a bit faster than that. I'm just glad he still has his awesome Upsmash.

 

[WolfCypher]

 

[JesseMcCloud]

 

[Chiroz]

Yeah, I'm just ignoring you now Raykz. I gave you all the evidence anyone needs to agree with my stance, and you're making up what-if scenarios that are neither plausible nor realistic.

FSmash is the only really slow one, and even then it's not too bad. I think they're trying to solidify Wolf as the strongest but slowest Star Fox rep.

The problem is you somehow thought I was arguing against your premise, when I wasn’t. I wasn’t arguing your “stance”, I was arguing specifically whether or not your “evidence” for it was solid. Because contrary to your belief, I also thought it was very improbable for Side-B to have an scenario where it didn’t leave you in free fall. People are able to believe in one thing while also shooting down weak arguments that are against the thing they believe, and honestly it’s what everyone should try to do, leads to better argumentation.

This is how I read our argument in my head:

“I know X doesn’t do Z in this one scenario, but I wonder if there is any scenario where X does Z”
“Na, X doesn’t do Z ever because of Y”
“To be fair, I think Y might be inaccurate information”
“Na, Y is accurate. Just look at how X doesn’t do Z in this one scenario”
“Ok, but if you break down Y into it’s components, A, B and C, we can denote how A, B and C are all wrong, therefore this is why I was suggesting Y might be inaccurate”
“I gave you all the evidence to believe that X doesn’t do Z so I am just ignoring you”

Please correct me if I am wrong about anything.





But whatever, as far as the actual question goes, Side-B does leave you in free fall in all scenarios. I got 3 games in with Wolf and tested some things.

Shine and Melee Blaster don’t have good gimping angles, which is something I wanted to test.

Falling U-Air is pretty good, it also combos into U-Tilt, I am assuming this could lead into a longer combo but I didn’t have another game to test it.

F-Tilt can be angled up and down.

Up-B sideways seems horrible in terms of recovery, doing it upwards seemed decent. I theorized after I finished playing that it might be because the actual Up-B length is pretty short, but Wolf gets a small “push” in the direction he is moving when the move ends. If you’re moving sideways, this small “push” isn’t much faster than Wolf’s already pretty fast aerial speed and you start falling immediately (due to gravity) so the only real help in recovery is the length of the Up-B. Whereas, if you’re doing the Up-B upwards Wolf get’s pushed farther upwards, which not only gives you more vertical distance but also stalls the effect of gravity for a little bit longer. This is my theory why it seemed that way.

It also seemed to me that Wolf’s Up-B had many more angles than Fox’s Up-B. I did a very minor angle at one point (like -15 or something like that).

Wolf’s aerial speed and aerial drift seemed amazing but I haven’t played many other chars so IDK how it compares to the rest of the cast.

I’ll keep going regularly to play the game since the mall is 10-15 mins away and I’ll keep writting down whatever I find.

 

[WolfCypher]

Get info on the if his Reflector has invincibility.

How are his down and forward smashes? His back air?

His three taunts for ****'s sake!!

 

[Chiroz]

Get info on the if his Reflector has invincibility.

How are his down and forward smashes? His back air?

His three taunts for ****'s sake!!

His reflector has invincibility, I haven’t seen it happen in game but in the Treehouse match vs Richter I watched it frame by frame and he has the white glow of intangibility on frame 6-9 (some people are saying it might be 7-10).

He still has the Howl and the Snarl exactly the same, he has a new 3rd taunt replacing “What’s the matter scared?” which is the taunt he does in his reveal video when he tells Duck Hunt to bring the star rod. He talks during this taunt but I have no idea what he says because it was too loud. Seems too short of a dialogue to be “What’s the matter scared?”.

F-Smash and B-Air are very slow start up but they have low endlag so they are hard to punish (B-Air seems to auto cancels every time the hitbox comes out, but if you land before the hit comes out it lags a ton). They hit relatively hard, not amazingly hard though. I didn’t do D-Smash in the whole match, I’ll test it out tomorrow! I managed to get like 10 games before it closed but I was testing many chars, tomorrow it will be all Wolf though.

 

[WolfCypher]

Tell us what you think is his best Kill options the next time you get to play

59 seconds and you see Wolf's Up Special (is it still hideously called "Fire Wolf"?) and he does NOT go anywhere with it (Raykz its horizontal). Looks like it comes out about the same speed as it did in Brawl. Is it a single strong hit or does it carry the opponent with Wolf (and if so, does it have a strong final hit? How many hits?)

 

[Chiroz]

Tell us what you think is his best Kill options the next time you get to play

59 seconds and you see Wolf's Up Special (is it still hideously called "Fire Wolf"?) and he does NOT go anywhere with it (Raykz its horizontal). Looks like it comes out about the same speed as it did in Brawl. Is it a single strong hit or does it carry the opponent with Wolf (and if so, does it have a strong final hit? How many hits?)

It carries the opponent, final hit is very strong, almost KOed someone at about 70% (he was at the edge though and he could have been DIng outwards, most players at the demo weren’t competitive). I don’t know how many hits in total though, doesn’t build much damage from what I could tell, but I also wasn’t paying that much attention at before/after %s.

 

[JesseMcCloud]

The problem is you somehow thought I was arguing against your premise, when I wasn’t. I wasn’t arguing your “stance”, I was arguing specifically whether or not your “evidence” for it was solid. Because contrary to your belief, I also thought it was very improbable for Side-B to have an scenario where it didn’t leave you in free fall. People are able to believe in one thing while also shooting down weak arguments that are against the thing they believe, and honestly it’s what everyone should try to do, leads to better argumentation.

This is how I read our argument in my head:

“I know X doesn’t do Z in this one scenario, but I wonder if there is any scenario where X does Z”
“Na, X doesn’t do Z ever because of Y”
“To be fair, I think Y might be inaccurate information”
“Na, Y is accurate. Just look at how X doesn’t do Z in this one scenario”
“Ok, but if you break down Y into it’s components, A, B and C, we can denote how A, B and C are all wrong, therefore this is why I was suggesting Y might be inaccurate”
“I gave you all the evidence to believe that X doesn’t do Z so I am just ignoring you”

Please correct me if I am wrong about anything.

I apologize if I came off as rude or antagonistic. However, that's not what happened. I simply stated a fact ('using side b puts you in freefall'), and provided evidence to back it (the Treehouse video), and you followed up with an incorrect hypothetical that had next to nothing to do with what I was saying ('only if you get hit' which, if anything, would refresh Wolf's recovery options as has been the case nearly universally since the original Smash.) Fortunately, we can just put it behind us.

That being said, thanks for all of your efforts to report your findings from playing the demo. I had assumed the "come hither" animation was just one of his idle animations.

 

[WolfCypher]

I thought so too (his "come hither" being an idle stance). I'm okay with that being a taunt. As long as the Howl taunt survived, IDC.

 

[Chiroz]

I apologize if I came off as rude or antagonistic. However, that's not what happened. I simply stated a fact ('using side b puts you in freefall'), and provided evidence to back it (the Treehouse video), and you followed up with an incorrect hypothetical that had next to nothing to do with what I was saying ('only if you get hit' which, if anything, would refresh Wolf's recovery options as has been the case nearly universally since the original Smash.) Fortunately, we can just put it behind us.

That being said, thanks for all of your efforts to report your findings from playing the demo. I had assumed the "come hither" animation was just one of his idle animations.

It's ok, I apologize as well if I was rude or misunderstood. I also thought that animation was an idle animation to be honest.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5nEdSMBCez4&feature=youtu.be

Here's a small video of Shine and Taunts. I only played 2 matches total with Wolf, and this match I spent more than 2 minutes just seeing attacks (Trying to hit shine on an aerial opponent and trying to hit Blaster on an aerial opponent). The second match I was mostly just trying to feel his overall movement out (it's great btw). So tomorrow I will try to actually get some info on his other attacks.

Unfortunately the video is 30 fps, so no accurate frame data can be assessed from it, but shield comes out 16 frames after the Shine animation starts in 30 fps which means Shine has to be anywhere between 29-31 frames or something like that, which doesn't seem too bad.

 

[Flon]

Can back air short hop autocancel? I've seen that it does have a nice autocancel frame but back air's start-up is quite high and Wolf doesn't exactly have a long short hop.

 

[Chiroz]

Can back air short hop autocancel? I've seen that it does have a nice autocancel frame but back air's start-up is quite high and Wolf doesn't exactly have a long short hop.

Wolf’s short hop seems to be around the 30 frame window (one of the lowest in the game). B-Air is frame 13. I don’t know what the frame data is for a SH FF on Wolf but I will assume it’s around 20 frames, so theoretically B-Air should AC, I will try to test all aerials today with SH and then with SH FF to see which ones AC and which ones don’t (I will test FH for the ones that don’t AC from a SH).



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RpnW3yoy9Vg

Last taunt says: “Huh, scared?”. I am very happy he keeps a vocal taunt, fits his character so well, plus that animation is more demeaning towards the opponent than the 3 kicks, I like it.

D-Smash kills Mario at 74% or something ridiculous like that. Although Mario was hit with the 2nd hit and he was DIng outwards, so IDK what to think.

 

[Rizen]

It looks like Wolf got nerfed from Brawl. Slower smashes and Bair, shorter upB recovery, nerfed shine(?). Not having to worry about chain grabs is great but I'm not liking how Wolf's turned out