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Wofl Q&A/Social

MegaRobMan

Smash Hero
Joined
Dec 5, 2009
Messages
7,638
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Omaha, NE
Dakpo's OOS punishing was unreal.

My match vs Domo is up but I don't really need a critique, most of my problems the first match was me trying to play melee, 2nd match I should have spammed d-smash.
 

Seagull Joe

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Updated opinion for :wolf:'s matchups. I also think :wolf: might be on the same level as :dedede:, :zerosuitsamus:, :toonlink:, and :lucario:, but lets NOT argue him into HT!!!!

McPP, me, and Kain keep doing work :). Kain is #1 in IL. McPP is currently #4, but I imagine he'll move up to #2 or #3 after yesterday's tourney (#2 is currently Kismet who he beat yesterday. #3 is Player-1 who he also beat yesterday :).). I'm currently #3 on Md/Va PR, but in terms of tournament results, I'm #1 so far for the season since I've won two tourneys out of three! And they used to say :wolf: was as bad as :luigi2:...

:wolf:
-3: :dedede: (Ban :dedede:)
-2: :wario: :pikachu2:
-1: :metaknight: :snake: :sheilda: :sheik: :popo: (Either -1 or 0. I never know where to put :popo:
0: :marth: :olimar: :rob: :pit: :lucario: :zerosuitsamus: :gw: :kirby2: :diddy: :falco: :lucas:
1: :toonlink: :ike: :peach: :dk2: :luigi2: :fox:
2: :ness2: :pt: :mario2: :yoshi2: :link2: :samus2: :jigglypuff: :zelda: :ganondorf: :falcon: :bowser2: :sonic:

I know my list is probably the most optimistic for :wolf:, but based on what I've seen results-wise and my own experiences this is my opinion for matchups. Also, PMC did bring up a good point for :sheik:. What :wolf:'s actually lose to :sheik: when they camp...? I don't lose to :sheik: if I camp because she sucks at killing/approaching reliably. She could be even...I don't know. Opinions?

Edit: And Lycan keeps doing work to. He actually won a tourney recently and beat Fow/Sk92, but I don't think anyone knew that besides me lol.
:018:
 

Ishiey

Mother Wolf
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May 20, 2008
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Land's End (NorCal)
Agreed with most of Seagull's post lol. My opinion on MUs, with some in-between categories where I'm undecided:

:wolf:
-3: :dedede: (Ban DeDeDe, for real tho)
-2: :pikachu2:
???: :wario: :metaknight:
-1: lol idk, probably the entire category below this
???: :popo: :diddy: :snake: :sheik: :sheilda: :falco: (DEHF is a cheater)
0: :marth: :olimar: :rob: :pit: :zerosuitsamus: :gw:
???: :toonlink: :fox: :kirby2: :lucario: (latter two with proper defensive play might be +1)
+1: :ike: :peach: :lucas: (maaan Lucas is totally +1, come on guys)
???: :sonic: :bowser2: :dk2: :luigi2: (+2 maaaybe when we're good at camping)
+2: :ness2: :pt: :mario2: :yoshi2: :link2: :samus2: :jigglypuff: :zelda: :ganondorf: :falcon:

Note that some of the +2 category (Falcon/Ganon/Zelda) could probably be +3, but I'm being nice and don't really know the story from their perspective (as in, how do we compare to the rest of their -2s/-3s). TL;DR we should get better at camping.

lol at the old days where people thought Wolf was worse than Luigi. Man. Good job to all the Wolves putting in work :)

Opinion on Sheik: She gets edgeguarded just as badly as we do in the MU if not worse, she gets ledgetrapped something awful, she dies a LOT faster than us provided we don't get tilt-locked (which is doable with camping), she doesn't have disjoints so shine is really good, etc. Idk how stages would really factor in, but yeah... it could be even, I just don't have the personal experience to make me feel confident in going for a change.

:059:
 

Ishiey

Mother Wolf
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Land's End (NorCal)
I really do :urg: but I still think he's fairly comparable to Wario in terms of difficulty.

Lucario gets camped really badly if we put effort into it imo. But then again I have very limited MU experience lol

:059:

:phone:
 

TheReflexWonder

Wonderful!
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ESAM went Pikachu the first two games against MCPe and lost, yeah. From there, I think ESAM beat MCPe in two games with Ice Climbers, then MCPe won Game 5 with Meta Knight on Rainbow Cruise. :3

Also, ESAM beat MCPe in Winners Semis 2-1, I believe.
 

Seagull Joe

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I really do :urg: but I still think he's fairly comparable to Wario in terms of difficulty.

Lucario gets camped really badly if we put effort into it imo. But then again I have very limited MU experience lol

:059:

:phone:
As :lucario: gains damage he combos :wolf: better and :lucario: is hard to kill. This is based on my experience against June for years.
ESAM went Pikachu the first two games against MCPe and lost, yeah. From there, I think ESAM beat MCPe in two games with Ice Climbers, then MCPe won Game 5 with Meta Knight on Rainbow Cruise. :3

Also, ESAM beat MCPe in Winners Semis 2-1, I believe.
I just went with what P-1 told me. He said Esam 2-0'd him in winners with both :pikachu2: and :popo:. In LF's he won 1 round against :pikachu2: and one against :popo:. Lost the next two against :pikachu2:. Then beat his :pikachu2: on Rc as :metaknight: :awesome:.

@Reflex: When is GA/AL PR gonna be updated to have McPP 2nd :3?
:018:
 

TheReflexWonder

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He's probably right, then. I just sort of glanced at the matches every now and again.

MCPe will move up when he starts regularly going to tournaments, most likely (which has been happening at a decent rate lately). PR will probably be updated after WABA in November.
 

Ishiey

Mother Wolf
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MCP is probably the best Wolf right now imo. Or at least, he definitely has the potential to be.

As :lucario: gains damage he combos :wolf: better and :lucario: is hard to kill. This is based on my experience against June for years.
He combos us better when he has increased aura? That doesn't make too much sense, explain further please? And yeah, he's harder to kill when he's at high% because his attacks are safer, but... camping :troll:

:059:
 

PMC66

Smash Journeyman
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362
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Europe
Updated opinion for :wolf:'s matchups. I also think :wolf: might be on the same level as :dedede:, :zerosuitsamus:, :toonlink:, and :lucario:, but lets NOT argue him into HT!!!!

McPP, me, and Kain keep doing work :). Kain is #1 in IL. McPP is currently #4, but I imagine he'll move up to #2 or #3 after yesterday's tourney (#2 is currently Kismet who he beat yesterday. #3 is Player-1 who he also beat yesterday :).). I'm currently #3 on Md/Va PR, but in terms of tournament results, I'm #1 so far for the season since I've won two tourneys out of three! And they used to say :wolf: was as bad as :luigi2:...

:wolf:
-3: :dedede: (Ban :dedede:)
-2: :wario: :pikachu2:
-1: :metaknight: :snake: :sheilda: :sheik: :popo: (Either -1 or 0. I never know where to put :popo:
0: :marth: :olimar: :rob: :pit: :lucario: :zerosuitsamus: :gw: :kirby2: :diddy: :falco: :lucas:
1: :toonlink: :ike: :peach: :dk2: :luigi2: :fox:
2: :ness2: :pt: :mario2: :yoshi2: :link2: :samus2: :jigglypuff: :zelda: :ganondorf: :falcon: :bowser2: :sonic:

I know my list is probably the most optimistic for :wolf:, but based on what I've seen results-wise and my own experiences this is my opinion for matchups. Also, PMC did bring up a good point for :sheik:. What :wolf:'s actually lose to :sheik: when they camp...? I don't lose to :sheik: if I camp because she sucks at killing/approaching reliably. She could be even...I don't know. Opinions?

Edit: And Lycan keeps doing work to. He actually won a tourney recently and beat Fow/Sk92, but I don't think anyone knew that besides me lol.
:018:
Sheik is most likely an even matchup, what wolf looses to when he camps is the fact blaster is too slow to zone vs a character like shiek your best rarely throwing them out. A common misconception is taking shiek to BF being a good place to take her it really isn't at all because shiek follow in game gets buffed drastically e.g. F-air to F-tilt.

Wolf doesn't loose in terms of camping thats whats so strange, it's more the fact that half charged Needles when they connect with wolf at certain distances can mean a free punish, it's why mixed aggression works better on Shiek because you make her paranoid of charging needles, because your aproaches with B-air in particular are pretty safe, her only method to beat B-air is to long jump FF B-air Wolf in order to beat it, but when spaced with the toe she can't do much, other than try to run inside you or go for a hard read.

I'd say if anything i know this sounds radical to alot of you but i think if either side wins, wolf does. If you stay off platforms and be cautious going on to them and being careful of Shiek's down throw chases, Wolf will either have a KO deficit of 20% when F-tilt locked or if sheik DOESN't get it she has a KO deficit of roughly 100% due to the fact she has a hard time killing Wolf.

F-tilt lock is also much more situational than alot of people believe, even if Shiek does get you into it at certain percents it's possible to escape at the 90s if you DI quickly with dual stick. the preffered method i use is a into and diagonal down rapidly on lower percent with the analogue stick whilst performing up and away on the C-stick because sometimes you can slip out because your heavy then if Shiek buffers it backwards successfully DI into her again DI up then at 100% DI up and away then DI immedietly back down to avoid the sweet spot of the U-smash. your percent will be about 110%ish at worst case scenario, bare in mind you have another 110% if you don't get random Dacus sweet spot, which honestly doesn't happen that often and by then Wolf has Sheik on a highish percent and he'll just kill her faster. But bare in mind Shiek can get lucky on infrequent occasions with Up B and Dacus kills. Oh and try to make sure shiek isn't directly below you her U-air can **** at times combined with the F-tilt lock when she's grounded, just don't go directly above her at all costs.

a wolf with bad DI that doesn't know the MU will always loose, but a wolf with competent DI with knowledge of how Shiek gets the F-tilt lock can go for entire games sometimes not getting hit by it at all tanking to the 200s and Shiek ending up not being able to kill Wolf regardless of being so high, (on rare occasions wolf can legitimately manage near 300 i kid you not). But on the flip side sometimes shiek will just completely destroy wolf with good landing reads, She's good at times keeping Wolf off of the ground and using it to get him off stage.

it's even more because of how random it is, granted i think wolf has a slight edge (but really not much of one more comparable to the kind of edge that ROB has over Pit) because his KO power is always consistent, whereas Shiek's vital F-tilt lock which is surprisingly hard to land without a hard read or a platform. But it's still **** or be ***** basically, both sides get crippled by eachother off stage but maybe shiek a bit more than Wolf.

I'd kind of compare this MU to Falco vs Snake in a way one side with alot of combo ability vs one big percent sponge that kills quickly

I lean much closer to 0 for it because Shiek is very good at punishing landings and can equal Wolf's off stage game on her, gimp game they are pretty much the same with eachother overall, Sheik maybe has a rougher time because her recovery is so bad but both character's fall speeds mean edgehogging and quick off stage gimps become quite viable for both sides.

BTW quick piece of advice be wary of Up B to kill, it barely ever lands but some shieks will try it as you land or spot dodge. It can kill you at about the 150s on certain stages, but now that you know this piece of information it will be much less likely to happen to you. Thats what this matchup is, if you know what shiek has even though it can sound scary on paper, it isn't so bad because some of it like afformentioned Up B is unlikely to really connect.

bit unstructured but it's the basic jist.

BTW your list for wolf isn't as optimistic as mine is :p
 

rsr2

Smash Lord
Joined
Dec 15, 2008
Messages
1,036
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Kalkaska MI
Agreed with most of Seagull's post lol. My opinion on MUs, with some in-between categories where I'm undecided:

:wolf:
-4: :ganondorf:
-3: :dedede: (Ban DeDeDe, for real tho)
-2: :pikachu2:
???: :wario: :metaknight:
-1: lol idk, probably the entire category below this
???: :popo: :diddy: :snake: :sheik: :sheilda: :falco: (DEHF is a cheater)
0: :marth: :olimar: :rob: :pit: :zerosuitsamus: :gw:
???: :toonlink: :fox: :kirby2: :lucario: (latter two with proper defensive play might be +1)
+1: :ike: :peach: :lucas: (maaan Lucas is totally +1, come on guys)
???: :sonic: :bowser2: :dk2: :luigi2: (+2 maaaybe when we're good at camping)
+2: :ness2: :pt: :mario2: :yoshi2: :link2: :samus2: :jigglypuff: :zelda: :falcon:


:059:
This is what it should be Ish, geez......
 

Seagull Joe

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MCP is probably the best Wolf right now imo. Or at least, he definitely has the potential to be.

He combos us better when he has increased aura? That doesn't make too much sense, explain further please? And yeah, he's harder to kill when he's at high% because his attacks are safer, but... camping :troll:

:059:
His aura moves do more damage and string together with increased knockback as he gains percent. Does that make more sense?
Why is McPeePants better than all of you?
He's just a beast. You gotta play me again. We haven't played in over a year.
Because he still cares about getting better, obv.

:059:
^

@PMC: I'M NOT READING THAT. /caps

:018:
 

~ Gheb ~

Life is just a party
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I don't think I've ever changed my opinion on Wolf's match-ups a lot. While deep inside I still believe that Wario is our worst match-up I can't objectively defend that point anymore.

3/7 - :dedede:
35/65 :pikachu2:
4/6 - :metaknight: :snake: :wario:
45/55 :popo: :falco: :diddy: :sheik:
5/5 - :olimar: :marth: :zerosuitsamus: :lucario: :fox: :rob: :pit: :ike: :kirby2: :lucas:
55/45 :toonlink: :gw: :peach:
6/4 - :sonic: :dk2: :ness2: :pt: :luigi2: :mario2: :samus2: :bowser2: :jigglypuff: :link2: :zelda: :ganondorf:
65/35 :yoshi2: :falcon:

:059:
 

M.C. Pee-Pants

Smash Journeyman
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Dec 4, 2009
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Norcross GA
McPP, I summon thee to talk to everyone about the Sheik MU. GO!
This mu is pretty much -1 cause of shiek inside game and what pc said about the DI around 90 wolf can escape it.Well my mu chart opinion is that lucario luigi diddy kong,and game and watch should be even. Ness should be plus 1 same with ike and, sonic bowser jigglypuff and yoshi should be plus 3
 

Seagull Joe

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I don't think I've ever changed my opinion on Wolf's match-ups a lot. While deep inside I still believe that Wario is our worst match-up I can't objectively defend that point anymore.

3/7 - :dedede:
35/65 :pikachu2:
4/6 - :metaknight: :snake: :wario:
45/55 :popo: :falco: :diddy: :sheik:
5/5 - :olimar: :marth: :zerosuitsamus: :lucario: :fox: :rob: :pit: :ike: :kirby2: :lucas:
55/45 :toonlink: :gw: :peach:
6/4 - :sonic: :dk2: :ness2: :pt: :luigi2: :mario2: :samus2: :bowser2: :jigglypuff: :link2: :zelda: :ganondorf:
65/35 :yoshi2: :falcon:

:059:
Based on how Kain plays :ike: I've noticed we kind of **** :ike:s recovery as well as outbox him. Outside of jab :ike: has nothing. Hence, why I see it more as 55-45 :wolf: now. I don't see us having an advantage on :gw:. Explain how you see us having an advantage on :gw:? Otherwise good list. And yay@Gheb agreeing :lucas: is even.

:018:

:phone:
 

PMC66

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Feb 9, 2010
Messages
362
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Europe
What stages should we take Sheik to?
anywhere that isn't battlefield or FD, just go on your favourite stage,

I personally would go to PS1 because it's mostly flat and if she F-tilts you on the platforms there isn't much room for her to continue, the way the neutral segment is shaped is perfect for the mu as it gives it nerfs the two strongest aspects of the Shiek mu, her ability to punish landings, and her ability to F-air you in from a platform, but be advised Shiek is no pushover anywhere, Smashville isn't as bad as FD or BF. Yoshi's is better than Smashville, and then 2nd best i'd probably pick Lylat because it's a great stage for wolf in general and the tilting and the way it shaped can on rare occasions screw her up if she gets you. That and it's harder for her to punish your landings and combo you because of the top levels platforms.

why am i the only one who thinks Shiek isn't bad for Wolf? even though i know the matchup in a ton of depth :/

oh yeah if Shiek jabs you hammer backwards as fast as you can sometimes they try jab canceling into it but it's not guaranteed.
 

PMC66

Smash Journeyman
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Messages
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I don't think I've ever changed my opinion on Wolf's match-ups a lot. While deep inside I still believe that Wario is our worst match-up I can't objectively defend that point anymore.

3/7 - :dedede:
35/65 :pikachu2:
4/6 - :metaknight: :snake: :wario:
45/55 :popo: :falco: :diddy: :sheik:
5/5 - :olimar: :marth: :zerosuitsamus: :lucario: :fox: :rob: :pit: :ike: :kirby2: :lucas:
55/45 :toonlink: :gw: :peach:
6/4 - :sonic: :dk2: :ness2: :pt: :luigi2: :mario2: :samus2: :bowser2: :jigglypuff: :link2: :zelda: :ganondorf:
65/35 :yoshi2: :falcon:

:059:
Whilst i disagree with ICs, Snake and Diddy being -1 for wofl I yearn greatly for the day when people realise Wario isn't that bad i really do. Wait... 6/4 is -1 Yusssssssss!

Though your MU spread is probably what most wofl's will agree with that isn't their own opinion.
 
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