Wind Waker Link

[Rhubarbo]

I've had an idea for a project now that we as a community have the advent of PSA. Basically, its purpose is to beef up Toon Link so his moveset resembles his abilities from the Wind Waker a little more.

I have no experience with PSA, so hopefully someone else can help this project get off the runway. I'll post my ideas, and anyone can feel free to contribute theirs as well:

Change list:

Regarding the Up Special
-Increase damage after fully charged
-Make the spin last for five seconds
-Allow the player to influence TL's direction while the spin attack is active on ground
-Make TL dazed for 2-3 seconds after the move is completed

Regarding the Side Special
-Make the boomerang deal less damage
-Increase TL's influence on the boomerang
-Make the boomerang travel further and come back slower
-Decrease the boomerangs damage

Regarding the Neutral Special
-Make TL's arrows randomly spawn as either Fire, Ice, or Light
-Fire arrows deal fire damage (they deal the most damage)
-Ice arrows deal frost damage (they deal the least damage but have a 1/3 chance of freezing the foe)
-Light arrows deal electric damage (middle ranged damage, and the stun the foe)

Regarding the Wind Waker Taunt
-After the taunt is completed (and is not interrupted) a gust of wind blows on the stage.

Regarding the Pigs
-If it is possible to use the pigs from Link's victory animation, that may be incorporated instead of the bombs. Hitboxes will have to be given to them if they are used. I'm not fully aware of the logistics of this, so someone else may expand on it.

Regarding the Deku Leaf
-If someone could possibly find a way to incorporate the Deku Leaf (in any form), I'd highly endorse it.

Technical and theoretical help would be greatly appreciated!

PRIMARY CONTRIBUTORS
E-Jolteon

 

[Mic_128]

Fire/Ice/Light Arrows: Link's arrows can now randomly be either fire arrows (flame damage), ice arrows (ice damage, 33% chance of freezing target), or light arrows (electric damage and stun effect).

I don't remember any arrow upgrades in Wind Waker...

 

[Buci01]

maybe his moveset should be more apart from the current version
using the windwaker as his B move and throw away the arrow
throwing pigs instead of the boomerang

 

[Miacis]

I don't remember any arrow upgrades in Wind Waker...

I didn't remember them either.
But I just checked and there are, actually.
Source : http://www.zeldaelements.net/9items.shtml

 

[ALF]

I don't remember any arrow upgrades in Wind Waker...

Then what game were you playing? The fire/ice arrow upgrades were necessary to get on the islands that had the power bracelet and iron boots, and the light arrows were necessary to defeat Shadow Ganon, Puppet Ganon, and Zelda even uses them in the fight with Ganondorf. You must be thinking PH, I don't think there are arrow upgrades in that one.

Anyway, the moveset needs moar skull hammer. I also think you should scrap the Great Spin altogether and go with Deku Leaf as up-b, working like G&W's up-b in the air (except slower), and creating massive windboxes when used on the ground, perfect for gimping with. The only problem is of course making the leaf, but Brawl Box should be able to do something for us in that matter.

As for non-specials, how about an attack that buffers out of a roll?

 

[Slashy]

Throw in the Tingle Tuner for the final smash.

 

[ALF]

I want to clarify something here. Are we trying to give Toon Link a pure Wind Waker-based moveset, or a more Toon Link-based one, so as to declone him from regular Link? I'd rather it be the second, though I'd still prefer Wind Waker items to PH or ST ones.

Throw in the Tingle Tuner for the final smash.

I actually love this idea, but there's another one I think could fit really well and would be pretty unique: Grandma's soup. Heals Toon Link all the way (or at least a good amount of the way) and powers him up for a little bit, but doesn't make him invulnerable.

 

[Buci01]

couldn't you use one of ivysaur's razor leafs as a deku leaf maybe?

 

[JediKnightTemplar]

I don't know, it has the right shape, but I don't know if it could be used since it is basicly flat, though if GW's parachute could be used, I don't see why it couldn't.

 

[Rhubarbo]

I want to clarify something here. Are we trying to give Toon Link a pure Wind Waker-based moveset, or a more Toon Link-based one, so as to declone him from regular Link? I'd rather it be the second, though I'd still prefer Wind Waker items to PH or ST ones.



I actually love this idea, but there's another one I think could fit really well and would be pretty unique: Grandma's soup. Heals Toon Link all the way (or at least a good amount of the way) and powers him up for a little bit, but doesn't make him invulnerable.

I don't fully know the extent of PSA's customization functions. I do however believe incorporating/altering models is either impossible or extremely difficult. Therefore, I wouldn't personally aim for incorporating the Deku Leaf (by altering Ivysaur's leaves), and I definitely wouldn't hold high hoped for incorporating the Skull Hammer. If the programmer who volunteers for this project is willing to attempt these feats, I would fully endorse it, but I want to keep the project on a simple, realistic, and fairly easily achievable level at the moment.

So, as it stands, the goals right now are:

Regarding the Up Special
-Increase damage after fully charged
-Make the spin last for five seconds
-Allow the player to influence TL's direction while the spin attack is active on ground
-Make TL dazed for 2-3 seconds after the move is completed

Regarding the Side Special
-Make the boomerang deal less damage
-Increase TL's influence on the boomerang
-Make the boomerang travel further and come back slower
-Decrease the boomerangs damage

Regarding the Neutral Special
-Make TL's arrows randomly spawn as either Fire, Ice, or Light
-Fire arrows deal fire damage (they deal the most damage)
-Ice arrows deal frost damage (they deal the least damage but have a 1/3 chance of freezing the foe)
-Light arrows deal electric damage (middle ranged damage, and the stun the foe)

Regarding the Wind Waker Taunt
-After the taunt is completed (and is not interrupted) a gust of wind blows on the stage.

Regarding the Pigs
-If it is possible to use the pigs from Link's victory animation, that may be incorporated instead of the bombs. Hitboxes will have to be given to them if they are used. I'm not fully aware of the logistics of this, so someone else may expand on it.

 

[E-Jolteon]

What about his whip from Spirit Tracks as a side special?

I gave it a shot earlier today by swapping the boomerang with a retexture of Lucas' Rope Snake. It... Wasn't without issue, though.

 

[pokelover980]

For the pigs, it is possible to swap them. As a matter of fact, there is a project called pBrawl currently going on where they swap as much as possible with his pigs :U

 

[Rhubarbo]

What about his whip from Spirit Tracks as a side special?

I gave it a shot earlier today by swapping the boomerang with a retexture of Lucas' Rope Snake. It... Wasn't without issue, though.

Sweet. If you can get it to work well, post a vid or file and I'll gladly look into it!

Still looking for a programmer to accomplish the other goals in the OP. Anybody's welcome to help :D

 

[E-Jolteon]

It only took a few hours!

I'm gonna post this in the Brawl box creation thread for now, since I'm honestly pretty happy. It needs just a little more work before I'll upload it.

 

[Zephron]

Regarding the Neutral Special
-Make TL's arrows randomly spawn as either Fire, Ice, or Light
-Fire arrows deal fire damage (they deal the most damage)
-Ice arrows deal frost damage (they deal the least damage but have a 1/3 chance of freezing the foe)
-Light arrows deal electric damage (middle ranged damage, and the stun the foe)

Technical and theoretical help would be greatly appreciated!

Those arrows didn't exist in that game, just sayin'.

Also, we wanted to do that for Young Link on the YL topic, but we found out it's pretty much impossible to get them all to look different.

You didn't steal the idea did you?

I would consider doing something else for your neutral.

 

[pokelover980]

Those arrows didn't exist in that game, just sayin'.

Also, we wanted to do that for Young Link on the YL topic, but we found out it's pretty much impossible to get them all to look different.

You didn't steal the idea did you?

I would consider doing something else for your neutral.

What are you talking about? All of those arrows exist in WW, you NEED them to complete the game :U

 

[Zephron]

*Hasn't played that game in awhile*

Oh yeah... ah well. Pity that it can't be done. You can't give 1 arrow 3 different effects.

 

[E-Jolteon]

Light Arrows were completely broken in Windwaker anyway(By broken I mean they made the entire game easy) Still, I'd rather not use the bow since normal Link has that already(and well deserves it)/ I'm gonna go play WindWaker for ideas.

 

[Buci01]

I don't fully know the extent of PSA's customization functions. I do however believe incorporating/altering models is either impossible or extremely difficult. Therefore, I wouldn't personally aim for incorporating the Deku Leaf (by altering Ivysaur's leaves), and I definitely wouldn't hold high hoped for incorporating the Skull Hammer. If the programmer who volunteers for this project is willing to attempt these feats, I would fully endorse it, but I want to keep the project on a simple, realistic, and fairly easily achievable level at the moment.

So, as it stands, the goals right now are:

Regarding the Up Special
-Increase damage after fully charged
-Make the spin last for five seconds
-Allow the player to influence TL's direction while the spin attack is active on ground
-Make TL dazed for 2-3 seconds after the move is completed

Regarding the Side Special
-Make the boomerang deal less damage
-Increase TL's influence on the boomerang
-Make the boomerang travel further and come back slower
-Decrease the boomerangs damage

Regarding the Neutral Special
-Make TL's arrows randomly spawn as either Fire, Ice, or Light
-Fire arrows deal fire damage (they deal the most damage)
-Ice arrows deal frost damage (they deal the least damage but have a 1/3 chance of freezing the foe)
-Light arrows deal electric damage (middle ranged damage, and the stun the foe)

Regarding the Wind Waker Taunt
-After the taunt is completed (and is not interrupted) a gust of wind blows on the stage.

Regarding the Pigs
-If it is possible to use the pigs from Link's victory animation, that may be incorporated instead of the bombs. Hitboxes will have to be given to them if they are used. I'm not fully aware of the logistics of this, so someone else may expand on it.

I think if you really want to distinguish wind waker toon link from brawl toon link, than you really should change atleast the specials
the only attack I would keeo, ar the bombs, because they are wind waker style, and the boomerang by changing it like you said. But neutral should be the wind waker, and up should be deku leaf.

If you keep all his old moves and just tweak them around... why even bother calling him wind waker link and not just tweaked Link?

 

[Rhubarbo]

Those arrows didn't exist in that game, just sayin'.

Also, we wanted to do that for Young Link on the YL topic, but we found out it's pretty much impossible to get them all to look different.

You didn't steal the idea did you?

I would consider doing something else for your neutral.

I had posted a thread about Wind Waker Link before he was confirmed for Brawl (I'm talking here late 2007), with the three arrow variations as his neutral special. And as for the fire, ice and light arrows, yes they were in Wind Waker. I honestly can't believe how scarcely people remember Wind Waker, its one of the best in the Zelda franchise :/

Regarding the appearance of the arrows, it doesn't really matter. As long as the effect is conveyed, that's all that matters.

 

[Rhubarbo]

I think if you really want to distinguish wind waker toon link from brawl toon link, than you really should change atleast the specials
the only attack I would keeo, ar the bombs, because they are wind waker style, and the boomerang by changing it like you said. But neutral should be the wind waker, and up should be deku leaf.

If you keep all his old moves and just tweak them around... why even bother calling him wind waker link and not just tweaked Link?

Yeah, I'd really like for the Deku Leaf to be the up special. But the problem is that I don't see any plausible way of taking Ivysaur's leaves and animating them for Wind Waker Link.

As for the arrows, I wouldn't mind substituting them in favor of E-Joleteon's Rope Snake. But I'd rather see the Rope Snake replacing the boomerang than the arrows.

 

[ALF]

I really think you shouldn't deny something from the moveset just because you don't think it's possible. At least list it as your ideal goal, but settle for alternatives. It seems like you don't even want to give the leaf a chance just because there's a possibility you won't be able to deliver on it, yet hacking is all about changing what was given to you into what you really want.

Speaking of which, I like the whip, but I think it should go over zair. It's more useful as a tether than a weapon in ST, and the hookshot isn't exactly unique to WW/Toon Link, so it can be replaced. The only problem is that then it looks like we're copying Lucas. However, Grappling Hook is better than the whip and does almost the same thing, so if we can find a way to make that, all problems are solved.

 

[Rhubarbo]

I really think you shouldn't deny something from the moveset just because you don't think it's possible. At least list it as your ideal goal, but settle for alternatives. It seems like you don't even want to give the leaf a chance just because there's a possibility you won't be able to deliver on it, yet hacking is all about changing what was given to you into what you really want.

Speaking of which, I like the whip, but I think it should go over zair. It's more useful as a tether than a weapon in ST, and the hookshot isn't exactly unique to WW/Toon Link, so it can be replaced. The only problem is that then it looks like we're copying Lucas. However, Grappling Hook is better than the whip and does almost the same thing, so if we can find a way to make that, all problems are solved.

I hate to come off as a pessimist, but the Deku Leaf is next to impossible with the current tool set. The only way I could see it being feasible is if we alter the proportions of an Ivyrsaur leaf; and a tool that allows animation creation (which does not currently exist to the extent of my knowledge) comes out.

Moving the whip to replace the hookshot is a pretty good idea. Having it as a special is fine too though. Perhaps we can give it some alternate affect to differentiate it from Lucas' whip. I'm thinking something along the lines of slower start up, high knock back, but anything can work.

 

[E-Jolteon]

I hate to come off as a pessimist, but the Deku Leaf is next to impossible with the current tool set. The only way I could see it being feasible is if we alter the proportions of an Ivyrsaur leaf; and a tool that allows animation creation (which does not currently exist to the extent of my knowledge) comes out.

Moving the whip to replace the hookshot is a pretty good idea. Having it as a special is fine too though. Perhaps we can give it some alternate affect to differentiate it from Lucas' whip. I'm thinking something along the lines of slower start up, high knock back, but anything can work.

Well, first off, Lucas' isn't just whip. It's actually a real snake. Also the Rope Snake isn't a whip at all, it's a grappling hook essentially.

BrawlBox can create new animations easily. I wouldn't want to remove the hurrican spin I'm almost done with, however.

How does neutral B sound for the Deku Leaf since there's a big debate going on about them anyway? While the bow was in Windwaker and everything, a Deku Leaf would be a better Windwaker exclusive item, don't you think?

 

[sinistersnakesennin]

How does nobody see that Snake's Up-B replaced with a Deku leaf isn't perfect...?

 

[Rhubarbo]

Well, first off, Lucas' isn't just whip. It's actually a real snake. Also the Rope Snake isn't a whip at all, it's a grappling hook essentially.

BrawlBox can create new animations easily. I wouldn't want to remove the hurrican spin I'm almost done with, however.

How does neutral B sound for the Deku Leaf since there's a big debate going on about them anyway? While the bow was in Windwaker and everything, a Deku Leaf would be a better Windwaker exclusive item, don't you think?

If you can make the Deku Leaf run smoothly, I'm all for it! Sounds like you're doing a really good job here. I'll put your name in the OP for contributions.

 

[Zephron]

Regarding the appearance of the arrows, it doesn't really matter. As long as the effect is conveyed, that's all that matters.

I did adore Wind Waker, just haven't been able to play it in awhile.
It was one of the better Zelda games.


And no, the appearances DO matter. If you want him to be somewhat balanced or even viable for competitive play you'd want to fix the visual effects.

 

[Rhubarbo]

I did adore Wind Waker, just haven't been able to play it in awhile.
It was one of the better Zelda games.


And no, the appearances DO matter. If you want him to be somewhat balanced or even viable for competitive play you'd want to fix the visual effects.

Well, one can hardly tell the strength of Peach's turnips. So, I don't think the appearance of the arrow matters to much. Perhaps we could just decide upon a single type of special arrow?

E-Jolteon is also looking into incorporating the Deku Leaf as a neutral special. We'll see where that goes and take it from there.

 

[Rhubarbo]

EDIT: I was thinking: Perhaps we could have link glow the color of the arrow he is charging or just fired. For example, if Link fires a fire arrow, he'll receive fire damage (damage set to zero, knockback set to zero) to indicate the type of arrow he's firing. The fire damage then stops when the arrow effect resolves.

 

[thanyou]

You should make it so when he dodges forward or backwards, if you press A at the right time, he does an aerial attack, just like in WW.

 

[Rhubarbo]

You should make it so when he dodges forward or backwards, if you press A at the right time, he does an aerial attack, just like in WW.

That sounds a little broken. However, a parry attack could be incorporated. Imagine that it works like Marth's Counter/Lucario's Double Team. However, Link dodges the attack and retaliates unconditionally (he doesn't need to be hit by an attack).

The move could be a combination of Toon Link's side step and forward tilt animations. As for where it can be allocated in the move slot; down special sounds about right.

 

[E-Jolteon]

That sounds a little broken. However, a parry attack could be incorporated. Imagine that it works like Marth's Counter/Lucario's Double Team. However, Link dodges the attack and retaliates unconditionally (he doesn't need to be hit by an attack).

The move could be a combination of Toon Link's side step and forward tilt animations. As for where it can be allocated in the move slot; down special sounds about right.

Actually, why not make his normal dodge able to perform like that? I'm not assuming this would be easy to do, like you have to time it perfectly.

I'd like to keep bombs if at all possible, and save to down-B for something better than just the parry.

 

[Rhubarbo]

Actually, why not make his normal dodge able to perform like that? I'm not assuming this would be easy to do, like you have to time it perfectly.

I'd like to keep bombs if at all possible, and save to down-B for something better than just the parry.

I don't want to break him. So I don't really want to make the parry easy. If you can make it, that if link does a side-step dodge, that causes him to avoid an attack, he retaliates, that would work well.

I'm afraid that this would break him though. If you want to do something else with down-b that's more original with down-b, I'd recommend we don't include the parry at all.

 

[ALF]

I don't want to break him. So I don't really want to make the parry easy. If you can make it, that if link does a side-step dodge, that causes him to avoid an attack, he retaliates, that would work well.

I'm afraid that this would break him though. If you want to do something else with down-b that's more original with down-b, I'd recommend we don't include the parry at all.

How would it be broken? As long as we put some ending lag onto the attack, it'll be fine. It's not like rolls are hard to see coming or are too quick to counter, that's why people don't use them very often competitively. Adding an optional attack to the end of one won't be that hard to get around, even if it has invincible start-up frames.

 

[Rhubarbo]

How would it be broken? As long as we put some ending lag onto the attack, it'll be fine. It's not like rolls are hard to see coming or are too quick to counter, that's why people don't use them very often competitively. Adding an optional attack to the end of one won't be that hard to get around, even if it has invincible start-up frames.

I guess attacking after a roll would be fine. I was thinking along the lines of attacking after a side-step. Yeah, I guess we could have Toon Link do a little swipe after a roll forwards.

 

[E-Jolteon]

It'll have to wait a bit to be implemented anyway I'm afraid. Right now there IS a pretty gameplay-breaking glitch. If he hits any enemy, it rarely but randomly causes them to teleport. It managed to kill Zelda across the opposite side of Final Destination, so I do believe that warrants fixing if I can figure out how.

 

[Rudementry]

You forgot to mention lowering the damage of the boomerang.

 

[Rhubarbo]

It'll have to wait a bit to be implemented anyway I'm afraid. Right now there IS a pretty gameplay-breaking glitch. If he hits any enemy, it rarely but randomly causes them to teleport. It managed to kill Zelda across the opposite side of Final Destination, so I do believe that warrants fixing if I can figure out how.

Alright that's cool. How's progress coming along overall?

 

[Rhubarbo]

You forgot to mention lowering the damage of the boomerang.

Pretty sure I have that mentioned on the front page.

 

[E-Jolteon]

I'm just now getting back to work on it. Right now, I'm not sure how to do these two things:
-Make the spin last for five seconds(Shouldn't be too difficult once I look a bit harder though)
-Allow the player to influence TL's direction while the spin attack is active on ground
Also, his movement creates another bug. If he hurricane spins off a ledge, it kills his recovery. If I can get the DI working it won't matter though.