Will the SSB4 air dodge allow wavedashing?

[TheBuzzSaw]

This is gonna be a crazy year. Last time, it was just competitive vs non-competitive players. Now it is amplified by Melee vs Brawl.

Honestly, I don't mind playing Brawl with friends. It has some depth. I just hate doing it in tournaments. Matches totally lack the same thrill Melee has.

 

[G3TL05T]

I mean... Wavedashing wasn't a technique that was programmed in, it was a glitch. So, no, the programmers will do whatever they can to prevent glitches. Even if airdodging was directional again, I'm certain they would make sure that the glitch was no longer present.

Wavedashing wasn't a glitch, it was a side affect to the physics that became an aspect of higher level play. It especially helped Mewtwo, for example, move faster, and it let you move in the opposite direction you were facing. Why would they remove it if it became so important to tournament play?

 

[LaniusShrike]

Wavedashing wasn't a glitch, it was a side affect to the physics that became an aspect of higher level play. It especially helped Mewtwo, for example, move faster, and it let you move in the opposite direction you were facing. Why would they remove it if it became so important to tournament play?

Er, I shall refer you to the rest of the thread. In short:
Not a glitch, a physics exploit, wrong term. Apologies.

We really just wanted this game, again, to appeal to and be played by gamers of all different levels. We felt that there was a growing gap between beginners and advanced players, and taking that out helps to level the playing field. It wasn't a big priority or anything, but when we were building the game around the idea of making it fair for everybody, it just made sense to take it out. And it also goes back to wanting to make something different from Melee and giving players the opportunity to find new things to enjoy.

Sakurai taking it out was intentional. He said that he didn't like the growing gap it created between the two skill levels. I interpret that less as "I dislike that good players are so much better" but more as "I want the skill level to be a continuous curve, not something with plateaus and spikes created by techniques uncharacteristic to the rest of Smash." And that's super smart; well-designed fighting games have continuous skill levels to encourage lower-level players to keep improving, while unintuitive techniques that devastate players that haven't sat down and explicitly studied the game are extremely discouraging.
They could implement it again and balance around it this time, but there's definitely a lot of value in having the characteristics such as speed etc. be consistent in lower and upper tiers of gameplay for ease of balancing and defining the character's strongpoints and weakpoints clearly.
A lot of people were upset when wavedashing didn't make an appearance, but I'm not sure why people were surprised. It was generally considered an exploit that threw off the balance of the game (even further), and it's not a great idea to latch onto exploits or glitches when it's assumed that they'll be changed/fixed in later versions. Even if directional airdodging returned, I suspect the team would put in safeguards to make sure that the dodging momentum isn't retained in the same way.

 

[[Legend]]

Basically there should never be any kind of advanced technique in any game that may require some grind time put in to grasp, so they really screwed up in games like Soul Calibur 5 with that exploit of Just Guarding, totally unfair you can just parry literally anything! My move was labeled as an unblockable its just unfair that it can be parried. I don't want to invest the hours it takes and the multiple matches of seeing the move over and over and learning the exact moment it would hit even by the sound of the starting animation to know when to unnaturally tap the guard button (hax) and parry moves, it just gives the advantage to the much more skilled player. Should be deleted in the next one to give an advantage to people who don't care about the game at that deep of a level.

/SARCASM

 

[TheBuzzSaw]

Basically there should never be any kind of advanced technique in any game that may require some grind time put in to grasp, so they really screwed up in games like Soul Calibur 5 with that exploit of Just Guarding, totally unfair you can just parry literally anything! My move was labeled as an unblockable its just unfair that it can be parried. I don't want to invest the hours it takes and the multiple matches of seeing the move over and over and learning the exact moment it would hit even by the sound of the starting animation to know when to unnaturally tap the guard button (hax) and parry moves, it just gives the advantage to the much more skilled player. Should be deleted in the next one to give an advantage to people who don't care about the game at that deep of a level.

Lemme introduce you to the game Candy Land. I think it will really boost your spirits.

 

[[Legend]]

Lemme introduce you to the game Candy Land. I think it will really boost your spirits.

Naw man Double Color card exploit needs to be removed for more casual play

 

[TheBuzzSaw]

I would just like to put to rest the idea that, in games, "everyone deserves to win". It festers everywhere, even in board games and card games. People are upset when others take it "too seriously" and try to win... but if they "don't care", why are they upset that others really want to win? Frankly, I'm not going to play a game that rewards not having won in a while. If I'm in a party mode, sure, I'll crank up the items and goof around. But when I want serious competition, I'm going to get that too. :]

As for this thread, we need more evidence to determine the truth, but so far, it's looking like wavedashing is out thanks to Brawl-like air dodge mechanics.

 

[SmashGuy]

Melee took some skill to master all the useful techniques, at least compared to brawl.
I liked shorthopping in brawl a little better because it is alot easier to preform. In melee it's hard to SHAFFL. In brawl theres pretty much just shooting Pit's arrows over and over again.
Hitstun should be in like melee definetly, mainly for combos and stall time to take care of other players.

 

[lil T]

Melee took some skill to master all the useful techniques, at least compared to brawl.
I liked shorthopping in brawl a little better because it is alot easier to preform. In melee it's hard to SHAFFL. In brawl theres pretty much just shooting Pit's arrows over and over again.
Hitstun should be in like melee definetly, mainly for combos and stall time to take care of other players.

It was hard to SHAFFL in melee....Took me awhile to be able to get that down and be able to use it in a real match with out messing up and dying all the time
But after you take the time and learn it, you start to see yourself getting better and you start feeling better about it.
Nowadays **** like that is just taken out because it's to "Hard" todo and people dont want to take the time...Then you end up with this simple boring games where you just Roll and do random attacks to win.
competitive
(now i just want to say this then im done.)
Party/causal games are fun....Don't get me wrong...But its only fun for so long...Now competitive games like melee stay fun for a long time?
Why? Because you have more ways to play it It had something for both...The competitive way, playing fast pace matches using all the **** you learn to win, Or you can just sit back with a couple of people turn on items and stuff and just have fun...
when you take out the competitiveness of the game the game is still fun...But after awhile it's gets Dull because there's no depth in the game..It's just always items and random ****...Nothing really to learn or do and it get's boring to look at and play after awhile....Think about it like this...Melee have been out since 2001....But that game is still very popular....Hell it's in EVO 2013....
Brawl came out in 2008...Now that game is still popular but it's not as popular as Melee...

All i wish is that they keep smash Competitive like melee but keep all the good other stuff that made it fun to play causal like the items, Story/classic mode Target test and **** like that so it's not always just competitive only.

 

[Kdbacho]

yup melee's largest tournament is larger then brawls. Wave dashing has to be re introduced. The word "exploit" is bull****, thats like saying someone is not allowed to use a "cross over" in basketball because thats not what dribbling was intended for. In sports, the rules do not tell you waht you can ONLY do, just what you must do, and can't do. Players in basketball create their own techniques, like how CAPTNJack discovered l cancelling. Melee > Brawl. I understand the more casual players complain about wave-dashing for one reason, they cant do it. So they request for it to be removed. Thats like banning fade-aways in the post because your can't defend it. If you lose to someone who wave-dashes, they are most likely better than you. The competitive smash audience is the long term audience, while the causal may just play if for a month and then stop. Please nintendo, add all of melee's techniques and add some more.

 

[Delgado]

kdbacho is the new dampé

 

[Terrazi Terrajin]

"Will the SSB4 air dodge allow wavedashing?"

No, but it will allow a new tech called threadbashing.

 

[MetalMan]

Shield + Tap Direction should be the "Wavedash". As in, that movement option most fighters have :l

EDIT: By the way, roll should be mapped to something else and youd have to ways to mobilize :D

 

[D-idara]

Yup, and it'd be nice if the SSB4 development team managed to do that; people will get over the character choices in due time if they don't like them (I've seen mixed reactions about Wii Fit Trainer...), but the mechanics/gameplay are what TRULY make the game. If they can make a game fun to play on multiple levels, they will have appealed to most everyone right there.

Also, I think there's a certain degree of legitimacy in people's worries, i.e. it's more likely for the game physics etc. (e.g. directional air dodges) to not change dramatically than the opposite, but that doesn't mean anything is set in stone. As gamers, we do what we can to voice our opinions and leave the rest in the hands of developer's, hoping that they don't let us down. Aside from showing our support after the fact, there's not much else we can do, right? =P

Actually, the character roster is what makes Smash.

 

[Renji64]

Nope There wont be any wavedashing due to casuals control smash.

 

[MoonSnow]

Chaingrabs are another exploit of Brawl, I'd prefer them removed.

 

[DakotaBonez]

Who the FU#@ bumped this thread!?!
Aw SH#@, I'm only making the bump bigger.

 

[salaboB]

The main issue is that it's difficult to do for people and creates a much larger gap in skill levels, but it's up to game developers to be smart and think of a way to not just give up and say "we won't include it" when they know it's something that would please so many fans and create a whole new dynamic to the game. Perhaps having a "competitive" mode with slightly redesigned physics resembling Melee's more?

Or you just make it not technically challenging to execute, then anyone who cares to integrate it into their play can. This would require really standardizing it for results/timing to allow it to be more forgiving on execution.

About the same difficulty as not jumping when you do an up-tilt with tap jump enabled would probably suffice...

(Of course, hardcore competitive players would probably hate that form of wavedashing because everyone could do it, even though everyone that could compete with them would spend the time to master it regardless of how hard it was anyway)

 

[SKM_NeoN]

wavedashing won't return. It was never intended as a "Oh, well let's add this to make it deeper" no, it wasn't intended to be there. IT will probably never appear in a smash again, which is good

Why is it good?

Because he can't do it. I'm fairly positive the vast majority of players against this technique can't wavedash.

 

[-TAG-]

This thread doesn't serve any relevance anymore since the airdodging in Smash 4 is the same as in Brawl, this should of been common knowledge by now.

 

[nessokman]

Because he can't do it. I'm fairly positive the vast majority of players against this technique can't wavedash.

It's not exactly a hard technique, I'm just saying its good to get rid of a technique that wasn't actually intended.

 

[Smur]

I keep trying to convince myself that SSB4 will be a game that takes practice and can be brought to a competition, but the more people post, the more I see that the majority wants...a casual game
There probably won't be any wavedashing in SSB4.
And don't even say "but they removed tripping", Brawl needs a lot more than a small speed increase and a removal of tripping >>

 

[MetalMan]

I keep trying to convince myself that SSB4 will be a game that takes practice and can be brought to a competition, but the more people post, the more I see that the majority wants...a casual game
There probably won't be any wavedashing in SSB4.
And don't even say "but they removed tripping", Brawl needs a lot more than a small speed increase and a removal of tripping >>

Shall we list what would make it a better competitive game?

Off the top of my head I'd say.

No tripping(check)
Faster overall falling speed(More gravity)
No Hitstun cancelling(Essential for combos)
Less aerial landing lag(Universal or button prompt, just needs to be in somehow)
Balanced roster

Anyone else help with this?

 

[SKM_NeoN]

I would add a better ledge game. Recovery in Brawl is redonkulous.

 

[ChickenWing13]

Shall we list what would make it a better competitive game?

Off the top of my head I'd say.

No tripping(check)
Faster overall falling speed(More gravity)
No Hitstun cancelling(Essential for combos)
Less aerial landing lag(Universal or button prompt, just needs to be in somehow)
Balanced roster

Anyone else help with this?

Yeah, no metaknight

 

[ChickenWing13]

I would add a better ledge game. Recovery in Brawl is redonkulous.

As in its hard too recover or easy?

 

[MetalMan]

I would add a better ledge game. Recovery in Brawl is redonkulous.

Forgot that one, the auto sweetspot either goes away entirely or gets reduced drastically.

Also Id like to see the los of invincibility on ledges after X consecutive ledge grabs.

Yeah, no metaknight

Its implied with the "balance" part that one character shouldnt break the game competitively.

 

[MetalMan]

EDIT: posted twice. Ignore

 

[Smur]

As in its hard too recover or easy?

 

[SKM_NeoN]

As in its hard too recover or easy?

It's far too easy. Seriously if you're not exploding off-screen you are almost guaranteed to come back. Melee was far more dynamic in this regard (well, in pretty much every regard actually, lol).

Edit: Smur's video is a good example.

 

[ChickenWing13]

Forgot that one, the auto sweetspot either goes away entirely or gets reduced drastically.

Also Id like to see the los of invincibility on ledges after X consecutive ledge grabs.

Not too sure on that one. If anthing they should cut invincibilty frames of icies in half. The wobbling is bad enough but the extended invinciblity frames from nana on the ledge should dissapear or at least get reduced imo.

 

[ChickenWing13]

It's far too easy. Seriously if you're not exploding off-screen you are almost guaranteed to come back. Melee was far more dynamic in this regard (well, in pretty much every regard actually, lol).

Edit: Smur's video is a good example.

Idk.. especially if you take all the gimps into considerationMk would just 3 stock you all day due to lame ass gimps. Nd not a lot of characters have good recovery.

 

[MetalMan]

Not too sure on that one. If anthing they should cut invincibilty frames of icies in half. The wobbling is bad enough but the extended invinciblity frames from nana on the ledge should dissapear or at least get reduced imo.

Wouldnt wobbling also go? Id guess balancing would prevent such nonsense. The thing is, grabbing and dropping from the ledge many times and being invinvible everytime feels kind of cheap instead of actually timing it to hog it.

 

[ChickenWing13]

Wouldnt wobbling also go? Id guess balancing would prevent such nonsense. The thing is, grabbing and dropping from the ledge many times and being invinvible everytime feels kind of cheap instead of actually timing it to hog it.

It would be cool if they made it like the tether recoveries, where as there is a 2 ledge grab limit. Then you must land back on the main stage before you can grab again. Kinda like scrooging lol.

 

[dnNCEW]

It's far too easy. Seriously if you're not exploding off-screen you are almost guaranteed to come back. Melee was far more dynamic in this regard (well, in pretty much every regard actually, lol).

http://youtu.be/vQD1yJinzeQ?t=4m36s

Idk, to me it looks like they decreased the ridiculous range of grabbing the ledge so far. Look when Mario uses his cape, he literally touches the edge and doesn't grab it. In brawl he definitely would have.

 

[ChickenWing13]

http://youtu.be/vQD1yJinzeQ?t=4m36s

Idk, to me it looks like they decreased the ridiculous range of grabbing the ledge so far. Look when Mario uses his cape, he literally touches the edge and doesn't grab it. In brawl he definitely would have.

Thats pretty much what he just said. That the ledgegame in brawl is too easy.

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

...what the f*ck is this?

In regards to those who keep announcing how these Melee tech exploits are glitches, really guys? Are you freakin' 12? You know good and damn well that you are just rekindling a flame. I would understand if you came into this thread uneducated of what it was. I would understand if this was a different website that doesn't have the available resources to educate players on techniques. I would completely understand if you approached with some humility and established that what you stated was an opinion with the intention of gaining understanding to be persuaded otherwise, but no; you came in here to be strait up assholes who can't finish your own fights. You have google, you know you could educate yourself about something before trying to start this same argument all over again. You don't have to quote Sakurai and use a minor interview statement as an established fact, because quite frankly, it's stupid. People's opinions change gradually and consistently; Smash 4 is an example of this. If you use an old translation quote from a game magazine as a substitution for thinking independently you are foolish, point blank period. So please kick off the goody two shoes and save it for someone else, because your speaking in behalf of "developer intent" is ridiculous. Please try to conduct a reasonable discussion on the issue instead of quoting an old magazine or excerpt like it really matters. There is absolutely no reason or excuse why you should be trying to start arguments about things that have well been established as facts.

As for will the Airdodge allow wavedashing, probably not, but that doesn't mean it won't be there. During the early Brawl demo you could wavedash (waveland rather) by doing an aerial low to the ground that carried momentum. For Mario, Sonic, Samus and Fox it was Bair, Diddy was Fair, Pikachu's was using a diagonal quick attack into the ground. This was completely intentional, but was removed because Nintendo demanded a change in the engine after we discovered this, being one of the many techniques in the game also. We may never know what's going to happen with the game, however I am confident that there will be some new methods of movement implemented in the game. I believe that implementing new techs as well as modifying older ones so they would not be so cut and dry that could be used for no reason (Like how Strong Bad mentioned earlier how dash dancing in Melee was ridiculous since it basically gave characters the ability to freely position for no reason without committing to anything). They could do something with dash dancing similarly to how they made wall jumping in smash, being that when you wall jump consecutively the amount of horizontal distance and vertical climb reduces, perhaps they could animate a characters dash dance to where the pivotal dash is a quick bolt back, but done consecutively the frame window to do the dash dance reduces and also the speed of your pivot gradually reduces similarly to how your initial dash from turning around during a full dash in Melee was slower and gradually picked up speed. I think giving the characters unique animations and effects during their dash dances would be pretty sick too.

There is so much opportunity for smash 4 it's crazy, but I'm an optimist, and I feel that smash 4 will be great on its own merits. Even if he does go off the deep end occasionally, he is a brilliant man. He knows what he's doing.

 

[SKM_NeoN]

http://youtu.be/vQD1yJinzeQ?t=4m36s

Idk, to me it looks like they decreased the ridiculous range of grabbing the ledge so far. Look when Mario uses his cape, he literally touches the edge and doesn't grab it. In brawl he definitely would have.

Yeah I actually noticed that. That guy must have been in shock when his character fell like a rock right next to the ledge! Heh.

 

[Smur]

http://youtu.be/vQD1yJinzeQ?t=4m36s

Idk, to me it looks like they decreased the ridiculous range of grabbing the ledge so far. Look when Mario uses his cape, he literally touches the edge and doesn't grab it. In brawl he definitely would have.

I think they were trying to tell us that doing cape that close to the ledge probably negates your ability to grab it. Maybe so that Mario can't spam cape on the ledge so easily like in Brawl.
I did see a clip where the ledge "sucked" megaman in just like it does in Brawl, but I forgot to save it

 

[Chiroz]

This

being a game developer myself even if exploits make the game a lot more fun they're still a no-no

You should be ashamed of saying something as incredibly incorrect as this.

Combos in fighting games, being able to slightly influence your movement when jumping on platformers, last hitting or denying on MOBA's.

They are all at the very core of their own genre and considered to be incredibly fun and entertaining and do you know what they have in common? They weren't intended.

All these things, even the ones discovered during development itself were "exploits" of how the game was designed or programmed and when discovered were left in the game because they added a better feel to the game. Be that feel flow, control or just skill.

More examples can be CC in PvP in WoW which was something not intended for PvP and as such they didn't envision the exploits CC could lead to and it has been a mayhem to balance and its been their hardest job ever since... Yet, you know what? They leave it in because otherwise PvP would be unbearable and no one would play the game at all.

You are dealing with things as black and white and that makes you a bad game developer IMO. As a 2 year student of Game Developement and someone who has made a good number of small games and playtested many many games. I can assure you that most times when an exploit appears and it is fun for the players to use it, it is analyzed to see what it adds to the experience or what it may take away in each of the fields, be it gameplay, art, balance, immersion and the pros and cons are weighted against each other to see if it is worth including.

Just saying no is a lazy and incorrect approach and while it might lead to easier balancing it will also lead to worse games.