Will the AI be stronger at least!!!

[Phil Ashio]

Hopefully we don't have characters running into walls like SSB, or killing themselves in SSBM. Plus, it would be cool if a person can actually train against a computer that can keep up with you. Let's get something above level 9 status and skill.

I don't really want to get pumbled or anything, or have their tech skill insane or anything. But at least give them a smarter edge.

 

[Speedsk8er]

Take away some of their inhuman precision and replace it with more intelligent thinking. Make them play more like us. The computer already learns, to an extent(I swear I've seen a computer Wavedash at me) but make it learn better.

 

[Charzendat]

They may very well program the AI with the advance techs of SSBM. I remember after SSB I felt that SSBMs AI had a harder Lv1 but an easier Lv9. Or was it the other way round?

 

[StarshipGroove]

I think they should be a lot more inhumanly precise: powershielding every single attack, jumpcancelling to aerial instantly, perfect waveshine, perfect rising pound, perfect SHL. Add a new advanced AI, able to know which way to recover and which move to use. Maybe give them the ability to learn.

Make this the level 1 Cpu and improve it up to 9.

 

[Vampirekain]

While I think that this topic deserves an honorable spot in the garbage sector of the forum!
Don't spam the boards...Instead try posting in other related threads.

 

[Phil Ashio]

Who the F cares if this was already posted. "WE" haven't talk about it!!! So we should just go to the archeive if it was? That's stupid. How about the people who just joined smashboards? Their voice has to be silenced because someone already posted? I say post on if you want to hear what others want to say!!! As long as it pretains to Smash, who really cares?

Vamp you're such the righteous journeyman!!! Are you compelled to tell everyone here that it was already posted. If you aren't going to contribute, then don't say anything. G*D!!! Well at least you can now sleep at night. Another thread saved by the hands of Vampirekain!!! The world can sleep again.

 

[Vampirekain]

How about the people who just joined smashboards? Their voice has to be silenced because someone already posted? I say post on if you want to hear what others want to say!!! As long as it pretains to Smash, who really cares?

New members could use the search button as other new members did before them.
The AI of the CPU's have been discussed in lots of other threads already. And while you have no problem spamming a forum you just joined others get irritated trying to find the threads they like among the tons of rubbish senseless fools are "posting on".
Also don't reply cause there is no chance for me to click this junk again...A moderator will probably close it before he goes to sleep if he's not too bored
Preferably Mic_128...I LOVE the man!!!

 

[Binx]

I think in training mode there should be a way to set the computer to constantly block so you can practice l cancels against shielding opponents. Also I think the computer AI should grab randomly when you shield or sometimes attack it. As far as the comp owning everyone nah, comps are dumb and are not really meant to be played against. We cant make AI that will play like a person, computers are predictable because of programming and always will be, but yeah I think that they should tech sometimes and miss techs sometimes at random, lets say level 1 computers tech 10 percent and level 9s tech 90 percent, this way you could actually have some decent ledge guarding practice and tech chasing practice.

 

[Katy Parry]

i like the cmp the way they are.

 

[Pure of Heart]

I would like them to be somewhat smarter, although, watching them miss spikes and kill themselves is pretty funny. =P

 

[TakDragon7]

Heh. Yeah. Seeing them going off the edge or what not is very funny but if they didn't put that in Brawl, then we wouldn't have a laugh every so now and then.

 

[Fartemup]

I wish they could improve the AI, but if they can't, I guess it's okay... What I really hope for is just that they test a lot so that they don't have stupid reactions like Lv. 9 Yoshi Air-Dodging and falling to his death EVERY time in Fourside, try it, it always works, unless I forgot something...

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

Who the F cares if this was already posted. "WE" haven't talk about it!!! So we should just go to the archeive if it was? That's stupid. How about the people who just joined smashboards? Their voice has to be silenced because someone already posted? I say post on if you want to hear what others want to say!!! As long as it pretains to Smash, who really cares?

Vamp you're such the righteous journeyman!!! Are you compelled to tell everyone here that it was already posted. If you aren't going to contribute, then don't say anything. G*D!!! Well at least you can now sleep at night. Another thread saved by the hands of Vampirekain!!! The world can sleep again.

1.Please...just shut the hell up.

2.Programing A.I. Is a very difficult task.To actually have a"smart" or"Thinking"A.I. would be a break through in booleanian technological advancements,and I doubt that will be happening anytime soon(I also doubt they would implement it into a video game as well).

 

[Fartemup]

Although, of course AI is a difficult thing to program, SSBM did not reach the limit of AI technology, it could still be a little better...

For example:
When a Lv. 9 is falling down to the stage and you are under them, they begin their attack quite a while before they will hit you, giving you the opportunity to dodge from their attack and counter, easily. This could simply be changed by adding a piece of code that tells the computer only to attack if they are close enough to the opponent that it would be more difficult to see it coming.

 

[Falco&Victory]

Phoenix, amen. To create a series of algorithms that stacks on such an immense scale of variables is simply not an easy task. Admit it, inhuman preciseness is all they've got going for them, whether anyone likes it or not. Make them uber inhuman and we have a challenge. If you want randomness set poke balls on high.

Oh, and Fartemup, in case you dont know you cant change one line of code for a different and noticeable result. You'd have to change the X and Y coordinates for each stage, for each characters varying recovery, for everywhere their opponent might be, and THEN they'd have t repeat that for 9 different levels of computer. Not an easy task.

 

[Buttcrust]

It's not about giving them real AI but just making them not complete morons. Make them more random in what they do. Make them more intelligent. It doesn't need to learn or anything.

The programming of the computers is too strict. It's like when you play a level 9 Falcon. At the beginning every time he will walk up to you and either f-b or falcon punch. Then he'll u-b or do repeated jabs. That's really the only things he does the whole match. Maybe make him SHFFL an attack or grab. And how about at least dashing?

Fox is the same way. Everything is either the repeated "a" combo a grab or the occasional f-b. He always uses u-b to recover and he always goes at an angle to the right (maybe it's left?). Someimtes he'll shoot his blaster from far away. Every character is like this.

Just make them not ********. You all yell at people saying that thinking AI is too difficult to program into the game, and you're right. Too bad that you who are *****ing are the only ones that even brought up real AI. Everyone else has simply said to make them not ******** like they are now or that they like them how they are.

If you think this kind of AI is impossible or incredibly difficult you're a complete F'ing moron. Many games have this now and have for awhile. Especially in this generation of gaming the capability is more than there. Increasing technical skill is the easiest way to "improve" AI but it is not beyond means to make a more intuitive AI. It merely takes some more time to program and test. In fact, coming from Nintendo I'm surprised that it hasn't already happened in Smash. They take pride in making their games and put the extra effort into making them, especially their big name franchises.

Booleanian technology? That's not even real. Booleanian is a language used to restrict searches. Yes it can be used in determining the actions of programmed characters but AI has progressed for beyond the simple state of using a step by step run-through of "If __ but NOT __ And __ do __." and such that is extrapolated out. Random factors can be used as well as increasing the number of possible outcomes and probability of such for the same inputs. While real AI doesn't readily exist it is close and even that level is unnecessary for a video game at this point. Just use better AI, not top of the line AI.


Many of you think you're all high and mighty. Many people haven't disscussed this, or other repeat topics, yet. Reviving dead threads is pointless because then no disscussion needs to take place as it has already been discussed. Besides, every time someone revives a dead thread some ******* like you people comes in and says, "That's already be mentioned!" or, "Stop reviving old pointless threads!"

Plus, as Scav says,

And on that note, I will be "reposting" this thread every so often, so that conversation can start fresh. Nobody wants to read a topic with 500 replies.

Nobody wants to read these old posts. Besides, opinions can change. Discussion needs to start fresh anyway because new ideas and concepts can be brought forth that way.

"But it's irritating to find they threads I like through this stuff I don't!" Well guess what, your crap isn't interesting to everyone else and it's equally irritating to sort through your "more worthy" crap. Oh no! You have to look for the thread you want to reply to for an extra 5 seconds and maybe click once to go to the nest page! Guess what, you can read the titles of the thread. If you think it's not worth your time, don't click on it *******.

Stop ruining topics that are getting good discussion, as clearly not everyone said their piece in the previous related thread. They are talking about it now. If your topic is so good and worth discussing then it will be getting just as many posts and you won't even have to sort through this "crap" because your topics will be at the top with recent posts.

The only thing you accomplish by this conduct is to make people not want to come to this site. That attitude underminds the entire website and degrades the community to just this, pointless squabbling.

So,

1.Please...just shut the hell up.

 

[Fartemup]

Well said Buttcrust. Wow, that's a weird sentence, but then again, my name's "Fartemup", lol.

Oh, and Fartemup, in case you dont know you cant change one line of code for a different and noticeable result. You'd have to change the X and Y coordinates for each stage, for each characters varying recovery, for everywhere their opponent might be, and THEN they'd have t repeat that for 9 different levels of computer. Not an easy task.

To reply to that, unfortunately, you are thinking of programming back in the days of Pacman. I use insufficient programming compared to what Nintendo uses today, and I know that it doesn't take all that work to make a piece of code like that, why would Nintendo, the geniuses that they are, use programming where every combination of X and Y would have to be written out. That's crazy, talk about a lot of work. Nintendo would only have to set a piece of code that tells the computer if the opponent is a relative distance away. Something like:
{
if object_computer_ylink9.y+100 > object_human_ic.y
{ exit; }
if object_computer_ylink9.y+100 < object_human_ic.y
{ALL THE ACTIONS TO ATTACK}
}

Obviously, it wouldn't be exactly like that, in fact, it would be nothing like that, but that should give you a basic idea. And I'm not saying that that wouldn't be a lot of work, because it would need to be re-programmed for each character or at least parent character, but it really wouldn't be THAT MUCH WORK...

 

[Azukki]

I think with the massive amount of effort they're putting in to the game, I'm betting we will see CPUS equivalent to a SSBM level 10 or better.


Randomly picking from three actions when in a certain situation rather than always picking one, is the sort of thing that would help CPU AI, even if they don't pick the 'perfect' move, they wouldn't be completely predictable like in SSBM.


Semi-related, wasn't there originally supposed to be a level ten in SSB, but there was some problem and they had to get rid of it?

 

[Doc_Holiday]

Why would you guys care about the AI? You can just play online with your friends.

 

[Sushiman]

A level nine Fox shine spiked me once. I was in shock.

 

[Falco&Victory]

Well said Buttcrust. Wow, that's a weird sentence, but then again, my name's "Fartemup", lol.



To reply to that, unfortunately, you are thinking of programming back in the days of Pacman. I use insufficient programming compared to what Nintendo uses today, and I know that it doesn't take all that work to make a piece of code like that, why would Nintendo, the geniuses that they are, use programming where every combination of X and Y would have to be written out. That's crazy, talk about a lot of work. Nintendo would only have to set a piece of code that tells the computer if the opponent is a relative distance away. Something like:
{
if object_computer_ylink9.y+100 > object_human_ic.y
{ exit; }
if object_computer_ylink9.y+100 < object_human_ic.y
{ALL THE ACTIONS TO ATTACK}
}

Obviously, it wouldn't be exactly like that, in fact, it would be nothing like that, but that should give you a basic idea. And I'm not saying that that wouldn't be a lot of work, because it would need to be re-programmed for each character or at least parent character, but it really wouldn't be THAT MUCH WORK...

Multiply that by about 10 lines for a complete action, 30-50 times for every stage, 3-5 times per ledge on each stage, 40-50 times per character, 2-8 times per direction of recovery, and 9 times for varying comp lvls. Congrats, 1 action slightly changed. Do you program unreal 3, at all?

 

[Idfection]

Multiply that by about 10 lines for a complete action, 30-50 times for every stage, 3-5 times per ledge on each stage, 40-50 times per character, 2-8 times per direction of recovery, and 9 times for varying comp lvls. Congrats, 1 action slightly changed. Do you program unreal 3, at all?

That kind of work isn't asking too much. The people coding are being paid. Better AI will help sales, even if only by a little. Profit for everyone.

Give me better AI.

 

[Mamush]

*Reads Buttcrust's post...* OWNED!

Anywho, I just had to say that haha and yeah I agree that they might as well make them less dumb. No sense in having the computer kill themselves frequently.

 

[Dantarion]

Multiply that by about 10 lines for a complete action, 30-50 times for every stage, 3-5 times per ledge on each stage, 40-50 times per character, 2-8 times per direction of recovery, and 9 times for varying comp lvls. Congrats, 1 action slightly changed. Do you program unreal 3, at all?

You don't know how smash is programmed. There is no way that they have to do this for every stage.

There are extremely stupid things that the ai does OVER AND OVER.

Let a level 9 capn falcon grab you. He will throw, then over+b. Every time. Many times, off the edge.

When level 9 fox is far away...does he blaster spam, or even dash towards you? No.
He fires once, walks a bit closer, and fires again, until he is close enough.

Here is how I think nintendo has the AI set up.
The AI knows where the platforms and grabbable edges on each level.
The AI knows the position and actions of the other players.

All the AI seems to be combinations of these things.
When off the stages, go to the closest edge using recovery moves.
(Luigi CPU doesn't use his up+b to recover)
When on land, move towards the enemy while using projectile moves sometimes
(No dashing, no jumping, just walking forward)
When close to the enemy, use an attack
(Pretty much the same thing almost every time, no combo's at all)
When enemy is above you, use a certain attack
(Gannondorf CPU always up+b's)
When enemy is off the edge, stand at the edge and wait
(Most cpu do a really inhuman grab when you are trying to recover)

Would it really be that hard to have a cpu turn around, jump backwards to grab the edge, then roll up when the person gets near?
The answer is NO. They just haven't tried to do this.

Remember, This isn't Tekken or Starcraft, where the makers of the time are trying so hard to balence the game for the tournament scene. This is smash, where the AI so far has been just good enough to put up a fight.

Don't even get me started about how CPU use items.

Do you program unreal 3, at all?

By the way, with your logic, the makers of Unreal Tournament have to make AI for each map. Hold up, wouldn't that mean that usermade maps would have to have the AI re-done for them? Whats that, all you have to do for most FPS games is set Waypoints so the bots know how to get around and use ladders and elevators?

Don't talk down to people unless you know what you are talking about.

 

[BackItch]

Multiply that by about 10 lines for a complete action, 30-50 times for every stage, 3-5 times per ledge on each stage, 40-50 times per character, 2-8 times per direction of recovery, and 9 times for varying comp lvls. Congrats, 1 action slightly changed. Do you program unreal 3, at all?

The AI is certainly not handled in the way you think it is. That would be an extremely huge amount of work.

For example, the different computer difficulty levels... you need not program everything over again just for a different level. In the code, you can have it so a higher computer level will perform an action quicker than a lower level.

If a fireball is incoming, the computer knows exactly what frame to block on. It knows where its hitboxes are, how those hitboxes are moving, where the fireball is, the projected path of said fireball, and ultimatly, the predicted frame when a colision will occur.

Simply make a funtion that yeilds a high percent chance of powershielding to a level 9, and make that chance go down a scale for the lower level of computers.
In a single formula, you can program for all levels of computer defending against most projectiles.

If you're intersted in AI programing, you can take a look at a fighting game program called MUGEN. There, you can see the lenghts people goto to get AI working properly.
Make no mistake, it's hard... but it certainly dosn't require the amount of code you're talking about.

 

[Dantarion]

All they really have to do is make the computer have more complex actions and a bigger variety of actions. Throw some short hops in there! Be more cautious when over 100%! Actually chase a player as opposed to slowly following them!

 

[TheBlackrose]

All they really have to do is make the computer have more complex actions and a bigger variety of actions. Throw some short hops in there! Be more cautious when over 100%! Actually chase a player as opposed to slowly following them!

THe cpu never runs! in melee always walking or tip-toeing

 

[Dantarion]

And lets also have the CPU actually decide whether or not it really needs to stop fighting you to go walk across the stage to pick up mr saturn, or any other item. I remember it being worse in SSB64 but still.

 

[Buttcrust]

Improved AI FTW!!

 

[Phil Ashio]

Butt you are as wise as Admiral Alackbar!!!

 

[Erk Aduro]

It'd be nice if the CP wouldn't powershield all my projectiles if they're thrown from more than half an inch away, yet then walk/fall straight into a charged up smash attack. -_-

 

[Spaniard364]

I think ( as hard as it would be to actually make the AI "smarter") that they should work on the strategies of the lvls. Not change them. A lvl 8 or even 7 puts up a better fight than a lvl 9 because they actually use different moves and aren't COMPLETLY predictable. lvl 9's are completely pridictable and all they really do is poke/grab (if you don't beleive me, put marth at lvl 9.) Also at lvl 9, like some others have said. The computers are able to reflect a shot or item right back at you when your right in their face. Thats something that more or less annoys me.

So i think they should re-work the AI and make it a challenge at least.

 

[Fartemup]

Multiply that by about 10 lines for a complete action, 30-50 times for every stage, 3-5 times per ledge on each stage, 40-50 times per character, 2-8 times per direction of recovery, and 9 times for varying comp lvls. Congrats, 1 action slightly changed. Do you program unreal 3, at all?

This is where the event that occurs all the time (120 times a second) comes in, you wouldn't have to program individually for every stage, or per ledge. The only ones that you would have to repeat are for all of the characters or the parent character, which I assume is what Nintendo uses, then for left and right directions, and for each level, but I would assume that only maybe 7-9 levels would use this tatic, so as a result, your programmer would have to write it, and then copy and paste 5 times. That's really not that much work...

I don't use Unreal 3 to program, but I do program with a different program, called Game Maker by Mark Overmars. It's a very basic program and I don't have to re-write things like that for EVERY combination, so I would assume that what Nintendo uses, they have found a even MORE efficient way to program or at least about the same.

 

[dynamic_entry]

i dont particlarly mind the AI atm, though i do agree with what was about lvl 9s power+grab fetish. and i wouldnt be fussed even if they did upgrade it, but even so, there'd still be some sort of pattern to their fighting.

those who were worried about not getting a laugh should play with 3 mates more often, thats when the real randomness, and hence, unrivalled hilarity ensues!

 

[Thino]

First off , they need to take out that A and grab spam, Melee AI lvl 9 have super fast reflexes , they just need to make them smarter and use some advanced techs like edgehog

 

[Micahc]

Why would you program the AI for each stage, each ledge, etc.? Make the ledge equal a variable, lets say "x," the ground equal "y," and the player character equal "play." Now lets do a simple code:

int playx;
if(playx==play+x)
{
Dr. Mario attack script, where he jumps, fairs, and returns
}

The problem with this is that is whe the player is on the ledge, Doc does the exact same thing over and over again. So what they need to do is throw in some randomness, what if Doc just waited? What if he started throwing pills? What if he did the afore mentioned script? Heck I know I'm not the greatest coder, crap I'm still in highschool, but even I can see how they did it. (Providing the programmed in C++)
Crap. I forgot the whole point of this post. Can someone explain what I was going to?

 

[Paranoid_Android]

I'm sure the AI will be much improved over SSBM, since the Wii is more powerful and methods of creating good AI have come pretty far in the past 5 years. However, what's the point of AI when you can fight a real person at any time with WiFi?

 

[Thino]

Why would you program the AI for each stage, each ledge, etc.? Make the ledge equal a variable, lets say "x," the ground equal "y," and the player character equal "play."

melee ai does this

I'm sure the AI will be much improved over SSBM, since the Wii is more powerful and methods of creating good AI have come pretty far in the past 5 years. However, what's the point of AI when you can fight a real person at any time with WiFi?

if ur talking about making it smarter then i agree with u , but its doesnt depend on the wii's capabilities , plus not anyone is able to play with real persons or on wifi , and the game needs 1p mode

 

[Opfer]

Multiply that by about 10 lines for a complete action, 30-50 times for every stage, 3-5 times per ledge on each stage, 40-50 times per character, 2-8 times per direction of recovery, and 9 times for varying comp lvls. Congrats, 1 action slightly changed. Do you program unreal 3, at all?

Alright, I'm a programmer and I can assure you that if they had coded it this way, SSBM wouldn't be out yet.

Since the days of assemblers, programming languages have evolved around the goal of reduced redundancy, meaning that a piece of code only exists once. This leads to a situation where small changes in gameplay would only require small changes in the code. Without this philosophy, today's games wouldn't be possible because the development would take far too long.

That, together with today's AI techniques, would have made it easy for a company like Nintendo, to implement an awesome AI into smash. But they didn't. In fact, the AI wasn't improved very much over the one of SSB64. In my opinion, the game is completely designed around the VS mode with Player vs. Player fights. The AI is just there to make it hard to unlock things and to learn the basics by playing against them, but once your skills advance, you're supposed to move on to battling other players.

So my prediction is that the SSBB AI won't be a large improvement over the SSBM AI, and I think it's good this way. Would you want the development team to focus on superb AI or on great gameplay? I'd choose the latter, especially since no matter how great the AI is, nothing will make up for true multiplayer. And with online-play functionality there shouldn't be a need to use CPUs to practice.

 

[Micahc]

melee ai does this

Score I was right! That can either be a really good thing, or a really bad thing...