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Will the AI be stronger at least!!!

Takalth

Smash Ace
Joined
Feb 1, 2006
Messages
597
im basing my statement on the fact that every character except kirby and jiggz have one 2nd jump . if devs intended to give falcon and ganon 2 2nd jumps then they should have been able to do it without the down+b .
The point isn't giving them more jumps. The point is giving them more dynamics in the air. The effects of simply having 2 jumps + up+B would be vastly different than getting their double jump back each time they use Down+b.

In the case of Ganondorf, getting the second jump back makes using Down+B spike a heck of a lot more feasible. In both cases, recovery is improved, but only if they are sufficiently above the stage.

From a programmer's perspective, it's a very unlikely bug (yes, I'm a programmer, too). From a game designer's perspective, it deepens the game, addding new tactics and options. It seems quite ridiculous to me to look at something that deepens gameplay, would be a perfectly reasonable design decision, and would take a really weird coding mistake to make, then calling it a bug.
 

Fartemup

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Mar 22, 2007
Messages
258
Location
Ontario, Canada
Thank you Opfer for clearing up my question.

To me, it sounds like Zauron's right again, because it wouldn't make sense for the game to be programmed to have the jump variable go back to 0 (in my programming, it's called a variable rather than a flag and to me, it would make sense to have 0 as no jumps left, 1 as 1 jump left, and 2 as on the ground) unless you touched the ground, but as Zauron points out, the only reason why it would make sense to make the variable go back to 1 on the Down-B was if there was a glitch where when C. Fal and Gan. performed Down-B on the platform itself they would only go down to 1, when it should be a 0.

And also, this move is ususally used for distance, not height.
 

Zauron

Smash Journeyman
Joined
May 15, 2007
Messages
445
Location
Bothell, WA
FYI, a flag IS a variable. It just means a variable whose purpose is to "flag" that something is true or false. Generally a flag is a boolean (bool) variable, although it could be a bit value compared to a bit field. For example, you could use:

#define CHAR_FLAG_DOUBLE_JUMP_USED 0x00000040

Then a variable such as "charFlags" which is used for several flags. Each bit of the variable represents one flag. So, to check if double jump should work or not, you'd do this:

if( charFlag & CHAR_FLAG_DOUBLE_JUMP_USED )
{ // Don't allow double jump
}

This uses the bitwise & operator.

You set and clear the flags with "charFlag |= CHAR_FLAG_DOUBLE_JUMP_USED" and "charFlag &= ~CHAR_FLAG_DOUBLE_JUMP_USED."

Its just a way to store multiple flags in one variable, and is particularly useful when coding for hardware that only lets you allocate memory in certain sized blocks (in other words, even if you declare a variable as a boolean, it still allocates a full 32 bits of memory, so a bunch of booleans is a bunch of wasted memory since you are only using 1 bit of each one, thus you make a single u32 and access its bits individually as boolean flags. This actually comes up quite a bit on console and handheld game hardware, but not on PC programming).

Its not often used these days because memory isn't that tight, except in cases where you have a LOT of a certain type of object (say, a particle) that all need to store multiple booleans and thus the wasted memory adds up quickly. It is also useful for saved game data to save room on the memory card. For example, in an old SNES RPG every chest you open is a single bit to flag if you have already opened it or not, to keep the save data nice and compact.

In any case, you are right that they probably didn't use a flag but used a counter variable, since some characters have multiple mid-air jumps that would need to be tracked. Not that that means anything to my conclusions about how getting an extra jump after the down+B would most likely require exta, intentionally placed code to be added just to have that happen.
 

Thino

Smash Master
Joined
Apr 7, 2006
Messages
4,845
Location
Mountain View, CA
The point isn't giving them more jumps. The point is giving them more dynamics in the air. The effects of simply having 2 jumps + up+B would be vastly different than getting their double jump back each time they use Down+b.

In the case of Ganondorf, getting the second jump back makes using Down+B spike a heck of a lot more feasible. In both cases, recovery is improved, but only if they are sufficiently above the stage.

From a programmer's perspective, it's a very unlikely bug (yes, I'm a programmer, too). From a game designer's perspective, it deepens the game, addding new tactics and options. It seems quite ridiculous to me to look at something that deepens gameplay, would be a perfectly reasonable design decision, and would take a really weird coding mistake to make, then calling it a bug.
i think points of view is what settles this matter : programmers need to stop seeing ssbm (and games in general) like a bunch of lines of codes ,its a game ( im a programmer too btw , lots of progrmmers around :p)
 

Falco&Victory

Smash Champion
Joined
Apr 28, 2006
Messages
2,544
Location
South Hill, Washinton
I was reading through, and someone compared the AI in smash to that of tekken... Now, I know that some people aren't programmers in the least bit(im pretty nub), but if you ever compare them again, I wont bomb Iraq.

Something relevant, AI will never be hard enough to satisfy you. It just wont be. Computers all run on predictable commands and algorithms, so there is really no hope of creating human like computers. The reason is very complex, so just skip if you want to, lol.


The human brain:Brain cells each have a unique process. Every time you learn, brain cells make links. The more links you have, the more you know. The human brain is always expanding. The reason you forget things is because if the brain cells do not 'light up' enough, you will forget. Quite simply, and AI program can not learn. Oh, sure, it could memorize your attack pattern to an astonishing amount, but it can memorize how you play, just what you do. AI is, IMO, always the hardest thing about a game. Making the objects? Hire someone. Making the code? Takes awhile. Writing AI? Takes a lot of programmers or a long time.
[/overly long explanation that you were probably too lazy to read]
 

Takalth

Smash Ace
Joined
Feb 1, 2006
Messages
597
i think points of view is what settles this matter : programmers need to stop seeing ssbm (and games in general) like a bunch of lines of codes ,its a game ( im a programmer too btw , lots of progrmmers around :p)
Yes, they're points of view, so don't state your opinion as if it is automatically true and accepted.

And BTW, it makes sense to treat a game as a bunch of lines of code, since that's exactly what it is.
 

Fartemup

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Mar 22, 2007
Messages
258
Location
Ontario, Canada
FYI, a flag IS a variable. It just means a variable whose purpose is to "flag" that something is true or false. Generally a flag is a boolean (bool) variable, although it could be a bit value compared to a bit field.
Ok... that makes sense.

Lol, who here isn't a programmer, lol.
 

Skywalker

Space Jump
Joined
May 7, 2006
Messages
2,317
Off topic: As well as anything else digital, character movements can be broken down to billions of zeros and ones.

Game developers always claim that the AI in an upcoming game will be unbelievable, but I'm rarely impressed.
 

Thino

Smash Master
Joined
Apr 7, 2006
Messages
4,845
Location
Mountain View, CA
im not telling devs to create games out of nowhere , my point is , if every single details , bug , glitch were to be corrected , games would never come out
btw what ive been stating about the 2nd jump recovery its what the game was supposed to be , not what it is truly , thts why i called it a glitch
 

Fartemup

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Mar 22, 2007
Messages
258
Location
Ontario, Canada
Off topic: As well as anything else digital, character movements can be broken down to billions of zeros and ones.

Game developers always claim that the AI in an upcoming game will be unbelievable, but I'm rarely impressed.
Well yes, everything HAS TO be broken down to binary code for the computer to understand it.

The fact that game developers claim the AI is amazing is probably because they're proud of their own work, and it really is pretty okay. For example, if I helped make SSBM's AI, I would be SO happy because, if you think about it, it really is good, but I am not completely impressed, so I agree with you, but remember that their work is worth recognition.
 

Takalth

Smash Ace
Joined
Feb 1, 2006
Messages
597
btw what ive been stating about the 2nd jump recovery its what the game was supposed to be , not what it is truly , thts why i called it a glitch
But how do you know that wasn't intended? Samus and link can recover by using their grappling beam/hook shot, which is outside of normal recovery, and that was certainly intended. Mario/Doc/Luigi using their Down+B to help recovery is also intended (otherwise, they wouldn't have thought to limit you to only rising once with the move during a single air period).

Thus, is it beyond reason that Ganondorf and C. Falcon may have also received a special move to aid their recovery? My opinion is that it was most likely intended, but to state either opinion with absolute certainty would require a quote from the devs.
 

Zauron

Smash Journeyman
Joined
May 15, 2007
Messages
445
Location
Bothell, WA
Exactly. I don't think one can claim that something was unintended based purely on the fact that its different than every other character. There's a bunch of those.

Peach and Donkey Kong's Down+B can't be used in mid-air like everyone else's.
Yoshi and Jigglypuff have Up+B moves that don't help with recovery like everyone else's.
Yoshi's shield never shrinks like everyone else's.
Mario/Doc/Luigi and Ice Climbers have a B move that behaves differently (yet has the same animation) by pressing the button rapidly, no one else has anything like this.
Link/Y.Link has a side smash that can do a second hit by pressing A again. No one else has this.
Link/Y.Link can block projectile by standing still. No one else can.
There's tons more of examples of stuff like this.

One of the things that makes Smash interesting is the devs set up certain "rules" of the game system, and then routinely find special cases to break those rules. Its concievable that this was a case where they broke the "rule" in order to add a unique feature to C. Falcon and his clone. Its not as obviously intentional as these examples, but nor is it obviously a bug.

Of course this is all completely off-topic and we should stop talking about it. I know I personally have better things to do than debate stuff on this thread.

To conclude my points:

- No the AI can't be like humans, no matter what someone will find a way to exploit a pattern the AI uses and it won't be able to adapt.
- Yes the AI could be a lot better than it is and feel a lot more unpredictable and random than it currently does.
- No that won't require a major increase in system resources and cause slowdown (AI actually runs quite efficiently on the Wii CPU, better than the 360 and PS3 CPU's in fact, even though they would win out from raw speed they aren't very efficient at it due to lack of branch prediction).
- No AI programming is not easy (few programmers are very good at it, it requires a different way of thinking than most other code) - but nor does it require the tons of work some have claimed, if it is done properly.
- Yes a better AI requires time and thought and, most importantly, requires the dev team to deem it important enough to the value of the game to be worth doing (which is what I think caused the melee AI to be what it is - they just didn't think it needed to be any better to serve its purpose in the game).
 

Falco&Victory

Smash Champion
Joined
Apr 28, 2006
Messages
2,544
Location
South Hill, Washinton
Truthfully, unless everyone has programmed AI,or anything really, they should stop talking about how easy it is. I have stated many times AI is the hardest part of a game. Watch 'in the making' vids, and they always rip their hair out over good AI, especially in FPS's and fighting games. RTS's have it easy. I say we just wait, then everyone who was right can start bashing, while the people who were wrong start swearing and calling the people wit common sense noobs. I dont flame when I'm wrong. Let's just wait and speculate, but stop the flaming. I have been crabby for awhile.
 

Buttcrust

Smash Ace
Joined
Jul 24, 2005
Messages
643
Location
Pickerington, OH
Ok. I just skimmed the last two pages because it was you guys arguing about glitches, namely the d-b recovery of CF and Ganon.

These are not glitches by any means. You can do the same with CF in SSB. DJ, d-b, DJ. Claiming things such as this are glitches is like saying l-canceling is a glitch. l-canceling was put in the original SSB so that you could intentionally shield an attack immediately upon land from an attempted attack. The lag was 100% negated then. The developers realized that people had started using it they way that is common knowledge now and thus made the l-cancel half the frames instead of negate them.

Again, listen to Zauron. The man knows his stuff clearly. He has experience to back up his conjectures whereas you others are just throwing crap out that you clearly haven't thought about for too long. The instances Big Z listed a few post ago are proof that these things are not programmer oversight but intentional outcomes of actions.
 

Scar

#HarveyDent
Joined
Feb 11, 2007
Messages
6,066
Location
Sunnyvale, CA
lol Buttcrust, (I sort of just wanted to say that) are you sure the CF regains his DJ in SSB? I think you're lying.

p.s. I think the regaining of the DJ was unintentional in that if you hit them while they are performing the down+B's, they lose their second jump, whether or not they had it or not. I think that complicated things.
 

Buttcrust

Smash Ace
Joined
Jul 24, 2005
Messages
643
Location
Pickerington, OH
I tested it out before I posted. See, unlike most of you, I check my facts before spouting crap off.

What does lossing your jump have to do with intentionality? Kirby loses all his after his u-throw. Glitch or not the mere fact that it happens doesn't really substantiate any argument one way or another. If anything I'd argue that it does point to intention because otherwise the recovery would be too broken and hard to edge-guard. There must be some risk/reward system and not just plain reward.
 

Red Exodus

Smash Master
Joined
Dec 7, 2006
Messages
4,494
Location
Hell
I was reading through, and someone compared the AI in smash to that of tekken... Now, I know that some people aren't programmers in the least bit(im pretty nub), but if you ever compare them again, I wont bomb Iraq.

Something relevant, AI will never be hard enough to satisfy you. It just wont be. Computers all run on predictable commands and algorithms, so there is really no hope of creating human like computers. The reason is very complex, so just skip if you want to, lol.


The human brain:Brain cells each have a unique process. Every time you learn, brain cells make links. The more links you have, the more you know. The human brain is always expanding. The reason you forget things is because if the brain cells do not 'light up' enough, you will forget. Quite simply, and AI program can not learn. Oh, sure, it could memorize your attack pattern to an astonishing amount, but it can memorize how you play, just what you do. AI is, IMO, always the hardest thing about a game. Making the objects? Hire someone. Making the code? Takes awhile. Writing AI? Takes a lot of programmers or a long time.
[/overly long explanation that you were probably too lazy to read]
Where have you been? That's what I've been trying to say! AI will never please people, and we should be thankful with our dumb as rocks AI because some games don't even have AI, and if they do, they're cannon fodder fodder.
 

Scar

#HarveyDent
Joined
Feb 11, 2007
Messages
6,066
Location
Sunnyvale, CA
I tested it out before I posted. See, unlike most of you, I check my facts before spouting crap off.

What does lossing your jump have to do with intentionality? Kirby loses all his after his u-throw. Glitch or not the mere fact that it happens doesn't really substantiate any argument one way or another. If anything I'd argue that it does point to intention because otherwise the recovery would be too broken and hard to edge-guard. There must be some risk/reward system and not just plain reward.
1) overly agressive
2) thino and I overrule you.
 

Red Exodus

Smash Master
Joined
Dec 7, 2006
Messages
4,494
Location
Hell
It doesn't matter how many levels they add, the AI will still suck. They could have 3 AI levels and the only difference would be the AI would jump from easy, to intermediate to difficult.
 

Buttcrust

Smash Ace
Joined
Jul 24, 2005
Messages
643
Location
Pickerington, OH
me said:
You can do the same with CF in SSB.
No.
I went and checked myself, instead of having my roommate do it for me, and no you can not get your jump back. (I don't know if he tested it wrong or just lied to make me look stupid but if it was the latter it was well played. I'll ask him when he gets up. That was such a good prank that I'm not even upset about it, if it in fact was one.)

Scar, the aggression wasn't aimed at you at all but the people who pretend to know the programming of SSBM when in fact they don't. Sorry if it seemed toward you.

The fact that the re-DJ is intentional still remains. Many characters have abilitys to aid recovery other than u-b. Luigi has f-b and d-b. Mario/Dr has f-b and d-b. Marth/Roy have f-b. Link/Y.Link/Samus have grapple. Samus has d-b. Peach has b. Jiggly puff has b and f-b. There's probably some that I'm forgetting too. These were clearly put in on purpose because computer Luigi only uses f-b to recover. This is just another example of that.
 

Falco&Victory

Smash Champion
Joined
Apr 28, 2006
Messages
2,544
Location
South Hill, Washinton
Buttcrust, do YOU know what the programming is like? Download SSBM on your comp, open the .dat file or however they encrypt yours, and get a some hacks to get past the encrypts, You will see the sheer terror of programming AI.
 

HideousBeing

Smash Ace
Joined
Apr 21, 2007
Messages
733
Location
Escondido, CA
What I would like to see in CPU AI, (sorry if this has already been mentioned) is a learning feature. If you react to a similar situation against a CPU in the same way over and over again, they will change their strategy to counter it until you learn to counter that, whereupon, they will try something new. Eventually, they'd be mixing up the strats they've "learned" and you could not anticipate what they might do. For example, a Spin Attack trigger happy n00b keeps edgeguarding the CPU the same way. After a few occurrences of this technique, the CPU would drop back and return with a midair to counter, or jump up the ledge, and counter.

Now, it might take CPU's a while to compute your strategies, so you could have your CPU AI applied to your account (name tag.) As soon as you select that name tag, you would have CPU's programmed to counter your play style. Obviously, the CPU's wouldn't be perfect at their strategies like PERF, but it would be nice to see them implement advanced techniques.
 

Papapaint

Just your average kind of Luigi.
Joined
Oct 4, 2006
Messages
925
Location
Williamsburg, VA
What I would like to see in CPU AI, (sorry if this has already been mentioned) is a learning feature. If you react to a similar situation against a CPU in the same way over and over again, they will change their strategy to counter it until you learn to counter that, whereupon, they will try something new. Eventually, they'd be mixing up the strats they've "learned" and you could not anticipate what they might do. For example, a Spin Attack trigger happy n00b keeps edgeguarding the CPU the same way. After a few occurrences of this technique, the CPU would drop back and return with a midair to counter, or jump up the ledge, and counter.

Now, it might take CPU's a while to compute your strategies, so you could have your CPU AI applied to your account (name tag.) As soon as you select that name tag, you would have CPU's programmed to counter your play style. Obviously, the CPU's wouldn't be perfect at their strategies like PERF, but it would be nice to see them implement advanced techniques.
Many other games have AI like this... Half Life 2, Gears of War. It's not unrealistic.
 

Zauron

Smash Journeyman
Joined
May 15, 2007
Messages
445
Location
Bothell, WA
Buttcrust, do YOU know what the programming is like? Download SSBM on your comp, open the .dat file or however they encrypt yours, and get a some hacks to get past the encrypts, You will see the sheer terror of programming AI.
What on Earth are you talking about man? All you'd get is machine code which, at most, could be decompiled into assembly minus the comments. No AI programmer could make heads or tails of that!

The actual code used is not stored in the compiled binary (unless you are using an intrepreted language, but those are slow and never used for games), and is far less complex than what you'd get by doing this. Most likely they used C++ and it would have plenty of helpful comments (or at least, they'd be helpful if you could understand Japanese).

That's not to say AI programming would be easy for anyone to understand. Of course not. Most people I've shown AI code to have no idea what they are looking at. But its not anywhere near as bad as what you'd see trying to look at already compiled code!
 

Dracandros

Smash Cadet
Joined
Mar 21, 2007
Messages
62
What I would like to see in CPU AI, (sorry if this has already been mentioned) is a learning feature. If you react to a similar situation against a CPU in the same way over and over again, they will change their strategy to counter it until you learn to counter that, whereupon, they will try something new. Eventually, they'd be mixing up the strats they've "learned" and you could not anticipate what they might do. For example, a Spin Attack trigger happy n00b keeps edgeguarding the CPU the same way. After a few occurrences of this technique, the CPU would drop back and return with a midair to counter, or jump up the ledge, and counter.

Now, it might take CPU's a while to compute your strategies, so you could have your CPU AI applied to your account (name tag.) As soon as you select that name tag, you would have CPU's programmed to counter your play style. Obviously, the CPU's wouldn't be perfect at their strategies like PERF, but it would be nice to see them implement advanced techniques.

There is only one thing harder than programming AI in the computer field today and it's pretty much exactly what you've summed up for us. It's called Human-Computer Interaction or HCI for short:

"It is an interdisciplinary subject, relating computer science with many other fields of study and research." (Wikipedia) Wikipedia jargon aside, it's a combination of computer science and human psychology.

Outside of the fact that this field has never gotten any real respect, it's probably the inevitable future of AI, design, graphics, and gameplay. Nintendo has already taken a huge leap into this field with the design of their Wii controller while Sony and Microsoft have yet to truly pick up the pace. To be truthful, Microsoft hasn't done ANYTHING for this discipline and I expect that trend to continue.

To keep it short and meaningful for all of us, AI really hasn't reached this level yet because computers are simply still too slow. That doesn't mean that it can't be done to some extent, but as Zauron has said with AI programming, it's not easy. However, HCI's goal isn't just to make the computer better or more aware as a whole. It's also about allowing the users to CUSTOMIZE the AI to fit their needs.

Melee only lets you choose the AI's level on a 1-9 scale. That's simply PITIFUL. Regardless of whatever improvement you'd like to see, it would take a lot of work and a lot of sitting in meeting rooms discussing all of the details. Like...1-2 months of straight 4 hour long meetings. That said, if the developers of this game wanted to, they could create quite a masterpiece. With one simple choice, the AI would completely change while staying as challenging. It shouldn't adapt to you as much as it should adapt to the settings you make. Besides, you're the user...you're the boss...go be the boss and stop kissing its ***. :)

It's not like the AI can't adapt to you or a name that you choose, but that's only half of the battle. What if you want to play a game with items but you want the AI to be bad at throwing smashes? What if you want the AI to use a lot of advanced techniques but not really apply them (which would be critical to teaching new players)? That has to be considered. I hope that this helps out in some way and if something doesn't make sense, feel free to ask.
 

Skylink

Smash Lord
Joined
Sep 30, 2005
Messages
1,319
Location
A house made of brick, wood, and plaster (I think)
I agree with Dracandros. Computers are too slow for learning, (at least the wii is) and Nintendo isn't going to suddenly come out with new AI programming that the entire industry still hasn't yet attained. And customizing the AI is a bit of a stretch as well, especially to that extent. I can't say I really need all this, most of us only want computer players to stop being so predictable.

One simple thing I suppose they could implement is having different ways of doing things, and when the situation rises, they could add up all possibilities and pick one approach randomly, to make them unpredictable. I don't know how difficult or expensive it would be to put in, though.
 
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