Will Kirby be a bottom or low tier in Smash Ultimate?

[Ryu Myuutsu]

Something that I noticed is that it looks like Kirby loses his copy ability more often. In one fight, I lost the copy ability three times and I lose it at least once in almost every other battle. I need further clarification on this because it could be that I was having a very unlucky day.
It would be annoying if that was true. In Smash 4 it didn't happen to me that often.

 

[Deleted member]

There's results from Komota, Jesuischoc, and Captain L (pocket), he's getting patches, but on the stuff I dislike.


Most of the specials should have much faster startup time. I mean look at Hammer and Stone! It's super easy to avoid (on the stage)!

Air speed should be like Pikachu (In canon I think he's much faster than normally depicted).

That's my thoughts tho.

 

[Mogisthelioma]

Air speed should be like Pikachu (In canon I think he's much faster than normally depicted).

You're not wrong. Look at the opening cutscene for Triple Deluxe. Kirby can be seen floating keeping up with birds. Now Kirby can't keep up with a sloth.

 

[Deleted member]

You're not wrong. Look at the opening cutscene for Triple Deluxe. Kirby can be seen floating keeping up with birds. Now Kirby can't keep up with a sloth.

Then if the developers had the choice of deciding his speed, why can't he be given just that?

Kirby has been known to obliterate Sectonia, defeat Galacta Knight, and end Void Termina.
And yet we see him losing to Pichu.

Is it because the developers have a bias against Kirby? They think he's OP? Or is it because they worry the anti-Kirbys will cry out, "Sakurai bias!"?

 

[Deleted member]

When is update 3.0.0 coming out? I wanna see the Puff have his stuff buffed to make him tuff!

I’m on a rhyming streak because I rapped today...

 

[Mogisthelioma]

When is update 3.0.0 coming out? I wanna see the Puff have his stuff buffed to make him tuff!

I’m on a rhyming streak because I rapped today...

April? I'm not even sure they gave us a release date. All we know is that it probably includes Joker.

 

[Deleted member]

April’s out and I don’t see an update. Well Kirby’s still sitting with Little Mac, I’ve switched to D3

Though I still use Kirby as a secondary and get destroyed by Jigglypuff and Wolf.

 

[Deleted member]

I don’t think Kirby with the buffs would account for the bigger issues he’s been facing since Melee. He has pretty sucky endurance, oirr aerials, slow startups, and abysmal specials (Up B isn’t bad for me though).

He’s definitely not the 2nd worst character, but probably hovering around bottom 5 even if his issues would be addressed.

 

[A-money2121]

Kirby is definitely one of the very, very few characters that benefited greatly from patch 3.0. The buff to his copy ability and n-air lag are changes that the community and I have been asking for over the past few months, and it's a really good step in the right direction for the future of his meta. The quality-of-life change to up-b is also welcomed, because it makes his recovery slightly less susceptible to ledge guards. I'm really hoping there'll be a trend of Kirby buffs in upcoming patches that'll hopefully address the god-awful lag and unreliability factor in most of his specials - a slight increase to airspeed would also be greatly appreciated, of course.... But at least inhale is a more rewarding move this time around, so I'm hoping that I'll see it more in his meta.

But I'm digressing a bit. I feel like Kirby's going to be in a fairly decent spot- probably mid tier, AT BEST in current circumstances. Kirby has a pretty good neutral game, and can combo really well on low percent opponents. As of late, I've seen some great Kirby games from a few competitive players. His f-smash is pretty damn strong, his u and d tilt are amazing moves that can string or combo into almost anything else, and I've seen some really strong follow-ups from landing a falling f-air. Like I said, to me his most glaring flaws are his specials - notably down and side b - and air mobility. Fingers crossed that these issues are primarily addressed - and for the love of god, no nerfs please... That said, I would be quite astonished to see Kirby in the bottom 5 again, let alone bottom 10 - I can already think of 10 other candidates that would be better fits in that category, and Kirby sure as hell ain't one of them..

 

[Deleted member]

Kirby is definitely one of the very, very few characters that benefited greatly from patch 3.0. The buff to his copy ability and n-air lag are changes that the community and I have been asking for over the past few months, and it's a really good step in the right direction for the future of his meta. The quality-of-life change to up-b is also welcomed, because it makes his recovery slightly less susceptible to ledge guards. I'm really hoping there'll be a trend of Kirby buffs in upcoming patches that'll hopefully address the god-awful lag and unreliability factor in most of his specials - a slight increase to airspeed would also be greatly appreciated, of course.... But at least inhale is a more rewarding move this time around, so I'm hoping that I'll see it more in his meta.

But I'm digressing a bit. I feel like Kirby's going to be in a fairly decent spot- probably mid tier, AT BEST in current circumstances. Kirby has a pretty good neutral game, and can combo really well on low percent opponents. As of late, I've seen some great Kirby games from a few competitive players. His f-smash is pretty damn strong, his u and d tilt are amazing moves that can string or combo into almost anything else, and I've seen some really strong follow-ups from landing a falling f-air. Like I said, to me his most glaring flaws are his specials - notably down and side b - and air mobility. Fingers crossed that these issues are primarily addressed - and for the love of god, no nerfs please... That said, I would be quite astonished to see Kirby in the bottom 5 again, let alone bottom 10 - I can already think of 10 other candidates that would be better fits in that category, and Kirby sure as hell ain't one of them..

Yes, Kirby has improved from SSB4 and the buffs, but they don’t address the issues he’s been suffering from his previous incarnation (startup on certain moves, aerials, poor air mobility, poor range, and I think his grab game got nerfed).

I believe that he’s still on the low tier range, but more like bottom 15. His meager tournament representation feels super underwhelming, and I believe people and pros are too quick to judge him by placing him in bottom tier by capitalizing more on his flaws and above said tournament representation. I haven’t seen any Pits or Wii Fit Trainers score anything notable on my radar.

 

[Kiligar]

I don’t think Kirby with the buffs would account for the bigger issues he’s been facing since Melee. He has pretty sucky endurance, oirr aerials, slow startups, and abysmal specials (Up B isn’t bad for me though).

He’s definitely not the 2nd worst character, but probably hovering around bottom 5 even if his issues would be addressed.

The projectile nerf benefits Kirby a lot as well, don’t forget that. I believe it should be up for now with Kirby, he’s more solid overall now, before Komota was able to bring Void to ‘sudden death’ situations, and now he should be able to take stocks. Don’t give up in Kirby, the buffs are coming, Kirby is the baby of Ultimate and the main star in WoL.

 

[Deleted member]

The projectile nerf benefits Kirby a lot as well, don’t forget that. I believe it should be up for now with Kirby, he’s more solid overall now, before Komota was able to bring Void to ‘sudden death’ situations, and now he should be able to take stocks. Don’t give up in Kirby, the buffs are coming, Kirby is the baby of Ultimate and the main star in WoL.

I took note of the projectile nerf. His shield’s still small though.
I still want them startup on moves to be decreased. Also his grab game should have more range. His aerials could use some improvements too (air speed might help, but not on my top priority).

 

[Deleted member]

Also, I haven’t seen Komota turn up in many tournaments recently, to which the same can be said with Captain L on Kirby too. He’s an even rarer sight on Youtube now, the only way I can find him now is through RK/Jesuischoc or by people who play him in locals.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Kirby needs his N64 aerial game to become good. Maybe more ground and air speed too, and actual infinitive jumps (this could justify making Kirby even lighter). Replace the hammer with something else, maybe an actual projectile. Make his Copy inhale work more like Dedede’s, and I believe Kirby would be fine.

 

[Deleted member]

Kirby needs his N64 aerial game to become good. Maybe more ground and air speed too, and actual infinitive jumps (this could justify making Kirby even lighter). Replace the hammer with something else, maybe an actual projectile. Make his Copy inhale work more like Dedede’s, and I believe Kirby would be fine.

Kirby having infinite jumps wouldn’t really be fair, as he would stall under the stage or somewhere near a place where his opponents would obviously die.
Kirby having 6 jumps is fine, just think his aerial game needs to be faster, stronger, and more reliable for combos. Copy inhale having more range would be good, but the hammer being replaced is impossible (I’d love to see star Rod in action, but it’s already more than 6 months, no point in trying to change it). Air speed would help, but I think his main issues are his range, nerfed grab game, startup on moves, and awful endurance. I’d suggest Kirby being at least marginally heavier, since he dies INSANELY fast.

 

[Mogisthelioma]

IMO Kirby is in the Shadow Realm of tier lists, right up with Little Mac and Bowser Jr. He needs buffs desperately.

 

[Ethan Weegee]

IMO Kirby is in the Shadow Realm of tier lists, right up with Little Mac and Bowser Jr. He needs buffs desperately.

I haven't had many problems out of Kirby, I don't think he desperately needs a buff. That's not to say that I don't think he needs any buffs, of course.

 

[Deleted member]

I don't see why professionals keep putting Kirby in the 2nd worst spot. I believe he has better tournament representation and more defining pros compared to K. Rool, Piranha Plant, Bowser Jr., and Isabelle. I think he performs even better compared to other low/mid-tiers like Pit and Ryu.

Kirby generally has decent amount of representation throughout locals and regionals from what I've seen. He's been popping up more frequently than the characters I listed above, and his virtues are generally underestimated because of the face-valued flaws. N

He'll still end up somewhere in the high 50s range (still think he's on the middle of low tier city) but in no way he's bottom tier. He's definitely slept on.

 

[Mogisthelioma]

I don't see why professionals keep putting Kirby in the 2nd worst spot. I believe he has better tournament representation and more defining pros compared to K. Rool, Piranha Plant, Bowser Jr., and Isabelle. I think he performs even better compared to other low/mid-tiers like Pit and Ryu.

Kirby generally has decent amount of representation throughout locals and regionals from what I've seen. He's been popping up more frequently than the characters I listed above, and his virtues are generally underestimated because of the face-valued flaws. N

He'll still end up somewhere in the high 50s range (still think he's on the middle of low tier city) but in no way he's bottom tier. He's definitely slept on.

I think the main reasons he is ranked so badly is due to:

1. Perhaps a lack of completely understanding the character.
2. Kirby has almost no tournament data (as do many low tiers but still)
3. His combos are not only restricted by the opponent but also the stage itself
4. Two words: Sluggish. Airspeed.
5. Linear and easily punishable recovery
6. Low damage output
7. Being a lightweight brawler really sucks
8. Poor frame data on a lot of his attacks

 

[Deleted member]

I think the main reasons he is ranked so badly is due to:

1. Perhaps a lack of completely understanding the character.
2. Kirby has almost no tournament data (as do many low tiers but still)
3. His combos are not only restricted by the opponent but also the stage itself
4. Two words: Sluggish. Airspeed.
5. Linear and easily punishable recovery
6. Low damage output
7. Being a lightweight brawler really sucks
8. Poor frame data on a lot of his attacks

I'd agree with the first three reasons you mentioned. Kirby has really tough times with platforms (I hate platforms too). The nerfed combo game wasn't very good to his decent play in Smash 4. I'd question the fourth one. King Dedede has the worst airspeed in the game, yet his results are much better compared to other fighters. Luigi's some good success as well. Think air speed's emphasis is exaggarated a bit much.

The linear and easily punishable recovery? It really depends on how good your opponent can do offstage. So someone like Dedede, assuming that person knows what he's doing and is in the ideal conditions to do so, yeah he can take care of the puffball. More grounded characters (thinking Ganon) will have less chances to exploit likewise.

Not sure, think Sheik will eventually come out ok with some tactics discovered this month. Poor damage output doesn't mean lower knockback or anything. Sheik still has an excellent combo game even with some of the nerfs brought into play. I think she'll eventually merge out ok as the metagame develops, still too early to conclude such points.

Eh, Jigglypuff and Pichu are lightweight.

Gotta agree on the last point. Most of his ending/startup lag doesn't impress. That's probably one of his main problems besides the nerfed combo game (and moveset overall). Wish Kirby can act/react faster with his tilts, aerials, grabs, and specials (especially on the inhale,,,which is why we see more Dedede inhales than Kirby inhales because well D3 is more efficent and faster at his job in inhaling compared to Kirbs).

 

[Deleted member]

Think Kirby seems to be getting traction based on several Youtube Videos. While he isn’t likely going to win any supermajors/majors, I think he’ll definitely do well in the locals and regionals. Usually I’ll see some Kirbies in Japan and the U.S.

Before it’d be pretty rare to see a Kirby every week, nowadays he seems to be getting quite a bit more traction.

Also Komota got 17th at Cost 2019. So reddit, put that in your tier list please. Jesuischoq also has results you know.

 

[boysilver400]

Was Cost 2019 a PGR event? Cuz I think reddit only counts PGR events.

 

[Deleted member]

Wait, you mean Panda Global Rankings?

I think the tournament was after the best results were released.

https://www.ssbwiki.com/Tournament:COST_2019

Got the information from smash wiki.

 

[boysilver400]

Just looked up the Tournament tier system info on the Panda Global website, according to the website, 200 entrants is needed to be a C-tier event, so COST 2019 really was a C-tier, so....yay Kirby?

 

[Deleted member]

How do the tiering of tournament systems in SSBU work?

 

[boysilver400]

https://panda.gg/blogs/pgstats/tournament-tier-system-released-for-the-summer-19-pgru

This probably isn’t the place to discuss the PGR, but it’s still useful to know where Kirby stands atm

 

[shade3134]

Kirby's standings don't really matter if he needs buffs and struggles to do well.

 

[Deleted member]

1. Every character matters, regardless of attributes. Each fighter has his own set of movesets, traits, pros and cons to do well. “Kirby’s standings really doesn’t matter if he needs buffs”. Many qualities are important to evaluate a character’s standing, no matter how small.

2. The reason many people don’t think Kirby’s doing well is because his success is happening in smaller areas. Jesuischoq is doing excellent in Europe, taking home many 1st place wins in tournaments (and even earning a surprising amount of money too). Komota got 17th in COST 2019, a C-tiered PGR tournament. Dream got 25th in SNS 5 doubles.

So you see, even though Kirby isn’t placing REALLY high in nationals, he’s got respectable results from an array of great players.

 

[Deleted member]

Also tier lists should be taken with a grain of salt: King K. Rool's thought to be the best super heavyweight at launch, now look how much the mighty has fallen. Ganon in Smash 4 was thought to have high potential. It took a while before he was recognized as still one of the worst characters in that game. And (our most famous example) we have aMSa demonstrating it took many years to prove Yoshi viable in Melee.