Will Kirby be a bottom or low tier in Smash Ultimate?

Dr Razortooth

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#1
Hello, I'm wondering if Kirby will be a bottom tier character. In every game except Smash 64 (He is ranked #2 beside Pikachu.) He is usually F or D tier. In Melee, he is the worst character, while Brawl, he sits right on the best D tier, besides DK, who is the second best D tier. In Project M, he was the second worst character. In Sm4sh, Kirby is an E tier, Will Sakurai make Kirby a viable character in Smash Ultimate?
 

SUDOZELDA

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#2
Kirby has been buffed in Ultimate from what I can tell. However almost everyone in this game is receiving buffs and speed-ups. I guess only time will. But I think he will be at least somewhere above bottom tier :)
 
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#4
So far his buffs has been on the right spot, his air game however is still iffy. But if they keep up the buff momentum he could be better than mid tier IMO.
 

Dario64

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#5
From what I saw. He looks buffed. But I won‘t go and say he will be High Tier instead most likely Mid Tier.
 
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#6
(Taken from Smash Wiki)
  • Like all characters, Kirby's jumpsquat animation now takes three frames to complete.
  • Kirby's dash is much faster.
  • Kirby's air speed is slightly faster.
  • Kirby can dash cancel into his forward tilt, up tilt and down tilt, letting him to use his fast options alongside dash attack on the ground, allowing for potential mixups. This also helps him mitigate up tilt's range, and lets him have a potent combo and anti air tool while approaching.
  • Now that taunts can be cancelled, Kirby can act quicker after discarding a Copy Ability.
  • First hit of neutral attack now has the ability to jab lock.
  • Kirby's dash attack has reverted to its Melee iteration, where Kirby does a tackle identical to the "Burning" copy ability. Its start-up is now twice as fast, it no longer goes off of ledges but compared to his previous dash attack it overall deals more damage, can't be SDI'd, and can even KO at higher percents.
  • Up tilt has much more range.
  • Up tilt has increased ending lag.
  • Down tilt has a higher chance of tripping.
  • Forward smash sends Kirby further, improving its range.
  • Forward smash has slightly higher ending lag.
  • Forward smash has a different start-up animation: Kirby now pulls back before executing a thrust kick instead of performing a spin first.
  • Down smash has increased range and is more like its Brawl version, as the ends of the feet send opponents at a horizontal angle.
  • Forward aerial has an improved auto cancel window, allowing it to auto cancel on Short Hop.
  • Back aerial has less landing lag.
  • Inhale has more range and has reduced startup lag. In addition, Kirby can now Inhale projectiles like a fully charged Charge Shot and choose to spit it out as a star or heal himself. It now KOs inhaled opponents first when performing a Sacrificial KO.
  • Inhale has an updated visual effect.
  • Hammer KOs even earlier when fully charged.
  • Kirby may now use his uncharged or fully-charged voice lines from Smash 4 when swinging an uncharged Hammer.
  • Final Cutter's ascending hitbox has been greatly improved.

I'll say...


High-mid tier.
 
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#7
I've watched these two (Nairo and Mew2king) talking about Kirby earlier, better if you listen for yourself
(warning it's not very positive but it seems more like speculations):

Q : (Nairo 1:41) (Mew2king 33:11)
 
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#8
Mid tier, somewhere in the B or C section. His neutral game was improved, and he got his better dash attack from Melee back, so d-throw to f-air to dash attack may be possible on some characters.
 

Phan7om

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#9
There's no way to tell, its all speculation. Most people are looking at the game through a Smash 4 lens when we dont know what new techniques will be discovered or what attributes of characters will be valuable in the meta. I could fully see him being anywhere on the tier list. That being said, the main reasons he was bad in smash 4 (and partly in Melee & Brawl) was because he was slow and lacked range.

Also, be careful reading the smash wiki. There is A LOT of wrong stuff on there. The smash 4 Kirby discord noted his main changes but the person running the wiki has not updated it.

SdN made a change list: Highlights are in red. Look at those landing lag changes!

Buffs:
  • Jab Finisher: 2% -> 3%
  • Dash Attack active: 9-~30
  • Dash Attack damage: 10%/7%/4%
  • Dash Attack FAF: 61
  • U-Smash active: 14- -> 12-
  • U-Smash FAF: 48 -> 46
  • U-Smash (late): 12%/11% -> 13%/?
  • D-Smash sends horizontally now
  • Spotdodge intangibility: 3-17 -> 3-18
  • Airdodge intangibility: 3-27 -> 3-29
  • N-Air Landing Lag: 10 -> 6
  • N-Air FAF lower, unsure by how much
  • F-Air Landing Lag: 13 -> 8
  • B-Air Landing Lag: 17 -> 10
  • U-Air Landing Lag: 12 -> 7
  • D-Air Landing Lag: 17 -> 16
  • D-Air (Hits 1-5): 1% -> 1.3%
  • Ledge Attack intangibility: 1-17 -> 1-19
  • Ledge Attack: 7% -> 9%
  • Ledge Roll FAF: 50 -> 47 or 44
  • Can Inhale projectiles now
  • Up-B ascending hitbox better

Nerfs:
  • Jab 1: 2% -> ~1.8%
  • Jab 2: 3% -> ~1.6%
  • Rapid Jab: 1% -> 0.2%
  • Grab FAF: 28 -> 34 or 38
  • Dash Grab active: 8- -> 9-
  • Dash Grab FAF: 39 -> 42
  • Pummel: 1.55% -> 1%
  • Roll Forward intangibility: 4-17 -> 4-13
  • Roll Backward intangibility: 4-17 -> 5-14
  • Roll Backward FAF: 31 -> 36
  • Airdodge (directional and neutral) FAF higher, unsure by how much
  • Ledge Jump intangibility: 1-12 -> 1-10
  • Ledge Jump FAF: 13 -> 15
  • Ledge Roll intangibility: 1-24 -> 1-20 or 1-22

Others changes:
  • F-Throw sends Kirby himself higher than in Smash 4 (lands on Battlefield platform)
  • Rolls might depend on which side they're done from (unconfirmed)
  • Directional airdodge snaps ledge from frame 35 on
  • Directional airdodge intangibility: 3-22
Also note that the Ultimate engine and changes to other characters helps Kirby a lot as well.
  • Access to running tilts and crouch (yes others get this too but Kirby actually has a better ground game than most so it should help a bit more)
  • Reaches max height on jump faster (might give him more combos from Utilt/Uair)
  • Access to a low % grab combos in a game where a lot of characters had their grab combos removed/nerfed
  • There is rumor he has a faster run speed (which will give him more ground options, but some say its just a placebo)
  • He has a dash attack now
  • Bad matchups from smash 4, like Sonic, Corrin, or Cloud, have been nerfed (but who knows how many new bad matchups will be apparent in a new game)
  • Edgeguarding is better
  • Multijumps help in a game where you only have 1 airdodge
  • And probably more
Also know this is just a Demo, so everything could change lol

Edit: Also, take top players opinions with a grain of salt. They are good at the game, but that doesn't mean they know everything. Dont get too discouraged if you hear them say Kirby is bad.
 
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SUDOZELDA

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#11
He has received lots of buffs, and his ground and air speed have been increased. I think he will be at least semi viable the coming game. Probably mid tier
 

Phan7om

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#12
Keep in mind tiers are relative. You could have tools that would be top tier in one smash game and still be bottom tier in another if everyone else's tools are better. Also, a lot goes into making a tier list. Results, early game impressions, top player opinions, and a bunch of other stuff matters. Characters could have high tier tools with a playerbase that wont use them to their full potential, so the tools wont matter.

All that being said, lets just hope we have better tools than most of the cast. :upsidedown:
 

azureHayabusa

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#14
I took a look at most of the gameplay videos and here's what I've gathered.

Now I could be wrong, but from what it seems to me:

U-tilt active 4-9 -> 6 - 10? (not sure about intangibility...)
U-tilt FAF 21 -> 24
It looks like you act out of dash after Frame 48
Standing grab active 6-7 -> 4 it seems like
Nair active 10-34 -> 10-26
Nair FAF 73 -> 52
Inhale active 14- -> 12-
Inhale FAF (upon release of special button) 18
Ground Hammer (no charge) active 26-27 -> 22-23?
Ground Hammer FAF 70 -> 60
Stone (air) active 29 -> 24 or 25
Can act out stone after Frame 26, before hand it was 32
Can act out of swallow (ground and air) after Frame 18 (before hand it was 30 in 4? it's a rough estimate)
Spitting active frame is either still 10 or it's 8... either way will be good to know since spitting is relevant in 1v1s now.

Like I said before, I could be slightly off and this could very well change (hopefully for better...). notes on other moves nearly matches up with what I have so I think it's kind of accurate. Regardless playing and labbing with Kirby is going to be fun, Ultimate can't get here fast enough!
 

azureHayabusa

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#17
NO JOKE. Also looking like UTILT - UAIR works at very high percents. Wonder if that could kill at the right %???
Then there's Nair's landing lag being as fast as Sm4sh Ryu's Nair which is great in itself. May seem possible to chain Nair to Dair a lot more easily and because air dodging isn't free anymore, it could lead to things like another Dair, stone, or inhale for a Kirbycide attempt. Just some combo theories.
 
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#19
Am I the only one who sees no difference in stone endlag?
Hmm... not sure, it looks faster (albeit slightly) to me. Regardless if it's the same or not, with the new mechanic changes, it will be worth testing. We'll know for certain once the game drops.
 
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#23
It's hard to say, he's bottom 5 in air speed, combined with the worst jumps in the game really held him back in smash 4.

Imo if this isn't buffed Kirby will suck again
 

Chibi-Chan

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#24
It's hard to say, he's bottom 5 in air speed, combined with the worst jumps in the game really held him back in smash 4.

Imo if this isn't buffed Kirby will suck again
I'm not gonna say anything, but I'm not feeling anything improved different from Smash4. The hardcore Kirby mains will have to figure it out.
Still 5th worst air-speed, but still love this guy.
 

LightLV

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#25
Been playing him alot. Dont think he's very good TBH. His air speed is trash and most of his specials are still really underwhelming.

  • Decent aerials but his terrible air speed makes his offense way more underwhelming than it should be
  • Jump height is bad which makes it easier for people to land in a game where everyone's juggle capability is high
  • Air speed is bad in a game where people move really fast on the ground
  • Inhale untech time still doesn't scale very well with damage so it's pretty much only for copy
  • Copy gets randomly lost now so even with the copy damage buff you can lose your hard earned copy basically through RNG
  • Hammer startup is slow, on shield it's extremely unsafe, shield damage nerfed, startup is laggy, cooldown is laggy, turnaround is laggy, it damages you, the move is just pure trash
  • Grab followups are wonky
And, the biggest reason i'm dropping him:

  • He can inhale projectiles now, but he heals a pathetic amount of damage (like 1%) no matter what it is and you're FORCED to do the animation on small projectiles (that people poke you with) which is extremely long and pretty much guarantees you're going to get punished for doing it from almost anywhere on the screen. Why.

He honestly feels like a Smash 4 character stuck in Ultimate. I really wanted to main him but there's no way he can possibly contend with the **** the majority of the cast gained in this game.

He honestly might be one of the worst characters in this game.
 
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Nintykid

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#26
Eh, Patches might be a bit kind to him in the long run honestly, I'll stick with him even with his glaring flaws
 
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#27
I'm going to play Kirby until the first patch, if he gets meaningful buffs that address his shortcomings than great! If he gets a 1% increase on hammer damage or something to that effect I'm gonna drop him. Which sucks because I really don't want to but trying to main a character this underwhelming in a game like Ultimate would just be too frustrating.
 

THK

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#30
Love him to death but certainly one of the weaker chars of the game as of 1.2.0. His weaknesses are way too easy to take advantage of. At this point I really only use him in matchups where I like my opponents neutral B, but the random copy loss on hit is weak. A "for fun" char and nothing more at this time.
 

Kayakoscep

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#31
I have no more fun playing kirby, all my games are so frustrating "just delete him from the game" is what I think all time I use him
 
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Kingshadow3

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#34
I exagerate when I say "delete him from the game" but it's the impression I got, he is so useless against a lot of characters and it's really annoying
Please be honest with me. Do you think he is actually worse than Melee Kirby? You can't be that serious... can you?
 
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Kayakoscep

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#35
Please be honest with me. Do you think he is actually worse than Melee Kirby? You can't be that serious... can you?
He never was a champ except on 64 but my peek of frustration is on smash ultimate, I never was upset to play kirby but smash ultimate have change it
 
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#36
You know, the fact that Kirby is even getting results at all from Captain L and Jesuischoc should immediately outlaw the comparison to his melee iteration. Seriously, I do not understand for the life of me where the comparisons come from at all. Melee Kirby(And nearly half of the cast in general) might have well have been incomplete characters(Mr. G&W literally was an incomplete character) and that made it borderline impossible to beat even mid tiers in that game.

Annoyance aside, I still think he’s low-mid tier, but I won’t be surprised if he’s last place when the first tier list comes out because almost everyone has so much potential in this game, and he’s unfortunately outshined by others.
 

Ryu Myuutsu

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#38
You know, the fact that Kirby is even getting results at all from Captain L and Jesuischoc should immediately outlaw the comparison to his melee iteration. Seriously, I do not understand for the life of me where the comparisons come from at all. Melee Kirby(And nearly half of the cast in general) might have well have been incomplete characters(Mr. G&W literally was an incomplete character) and that made it borderline impossible to beat even mid tiers in that game.

Annoyance aside, I still think he’s low-mid tier, but I won’t be surprised if he’s last place when the first tier list comes out because almost everyone has so much potential in this game, and he’s unfortunately outshined by others.
Indeed. I remember those useless back throws and forwards throws that would let go of your opponent and sometimes make you SD near a ledge. Same with Mewtwo as his Confusion didn't work as intended.

He never was a champ except on 64 but my peek of frustration is on smash ultimate, I never was upset to play kirby but smash ultimate have change it
Playing Melee Kirby is guaranteed to change that notion.

And instead of writing knee jerk responses in moments of frustration, elaborate with facts or use data to tell us exactly why Kirby is "useless" in this game. Emotional posts aren't going to enlighten anybody here.
 

Niuyoi

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#39
I think it's still too early to call Kirby complete and utter trash, especially with captain L getting results and looking good doing it. Definitely no where near the levels of melee kirby and I think that final cutter could have some cool utility. The instant RAR tech combined with kirbys fastest out of shield option being bair would be good to learn and could lead to a couple more short hop bairs after I think. The sh dair into uptilt is nice to hit with a few times before their % gets too high.

Basically its too early to tell and we need to lab him and share our findings in this here forum instead of ******** about cancer swordies and zoners :)

EDIT: Also inhale and copy is great against zoners as you use the projectile to cover your rushdown, or at least I do. If we can find ways to get guaranteed inhales against characters with good copy abilities it'd help us a lot in the matchups
 
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LightLV

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#40
I think it's still too early to call Kirby complete and utter trash, especially with captain L getting results and looking good doing it. Definitely no where near the levels of melee kirby and I think that final cutter could have some cool utility. The instant RAR tech combined with kirbys fastest out of shield option being bair would be good to learn and could lead to a couple more short hop bairs after I think. The sh dair into uptilt is nice to hit with a few times before their % gets too high.

Basically its too early to tell and we need to lab him and share our findings in this here forum instead of ******** about cancer swordies and zoners :)

EDIT: Also inhale and copy is great against zoners as you use the projectile to cover your rushdown, or at least I do. If we can find ways to get guaranteed inhales against characters with good copy abilities it'd help us a lot in the matchups
The one thing I will say about Kirby is that he is extremely matchup dependent. His MOVESET is fine, he's just got some unfortunate gameplan flaws.

Characters he can push a decent advantage on, he will do very well against because he actually has some VERY strong buttons. His current issue is that he's just got really inconsistent matchup difficulties.

Bolded is also very true, landing a copy against some characters will completely turn the match in your favor until you lose it, zoners mostly but also characters who just happen to have very good projectiles, like Wolf or Cloud. Kirby as a character with a projectile is just a vastly better character.


IMO unless there's something i'm missing about his playstyle, i think he's going to either be a strong counterpick, or we'll just have to wait for patches, at which point he could very easily become just generally really good, and it wouldn't even take very much.
 
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