Will Ganon be playable without L-Canceling?

[SheerMadness]

Look at how laggy all of his aerials are:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9H9sZ7NvHh0

Doesn't look like he'll be very playable to me.

 

[Magus420]

Ganon's f-air in Brawl - 34-35 frames of lag. (there is no l-cancelling)

Ganon's f-air in Melee - 12 l-cancelled; 25 not l-cancelled

It's nearly 3 times as slow and it was still quite punishable when it was 12. Meanwhile, other faster characters get significant reductions on their lag compared to un l-cancelled on many moves... yeah =/


But anyway:

-----------------
Brawl
-----------------
F-air - 34-35
D-air - 39-40
B-air - 19-21
N-air - 19-21
U-air - ??? (if there's a vid of him landing after one lemme know, and preferably several times in it)

**I suspect that the u-air is likely the same as the b-air and n-air.

-----------------
Melee
-----------------
These are l-cancelled, and parentheses is not l-cancelled. Then after --> is Brawl's numbers.

F-air - 12 (25) --> 34-35
D-air - 17 (35) --> 39-40
B-air - 12 (25) --> 19-21
N-air - 12 (25) --> 19-21
U-air - 12 (25) --> ???

Also, the jab seems to hit on the 7-8th frame instead of the 3rd like in melee.

He REALLY needs some great tricks or he's friggin screwed imo.

 

[Dragonboy2k4]

Look at how laggy all of his aerials are:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9H9sZ7NvHh0

Doesn't look like he'll be very playable to me.

Well they are laggy but I think were forgetting what class hes in.Hes a heavy one.So chances are,he'll have super armor attacks to make up for those aerials..If not theres always 34 other guys to choose from,but as for me,if he can move,hes playable.

 

[flashfox]

super armour would most likely at best landing during smashes and nothing else. lets face it, ganon is the new bowser, and basically, near unplayable as of now with all these new laggy moves.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fCQWwvZYE1c (u-air around 9 seconds, you see it again later)

 

[Team Giza]

We gotta hope for some sort of super armor on all aerials and during landing lag... I don't see that happening. Plus shield grabs would still kill him.

 

[Magus420]

He needs to land when using the u-air though =P

Plus that stage is way too zoomed out even if he does land with it later on to come up with anything conclusive.

 

[flashfox]

Ok then, back to searching. Thanks for the data so far, though.

 

[T-major]

well, he's on the character selection screen, so I assume that he'll be playable....

 

[Kimosabae]

Magus, how are you deducing the Brawl Ganon frame data?

-SynikaL

 

[Magus420]

Since the videos are in ~30fps, each game frame in the videos is ~2 frames in-game time. Since not all of the information is in the video because of the frame rate and it's not always completely clear when there are out of lag (if they turn out of it it's clear however) it's not exact though, which is why I give a range. This is also why it's better to be able to look at the move being used many times and from different sources to be sure it's correct. It's a bit more clear in them when the videos were deinterlaced through blending since you get 2 frames in one basically.

 

[Illyasvel]

If slow characters are playable without L-cancelling by adding super armor frames or mega strong attacks, Ganondorf will be "playable" too. Just get over it, there's no glitches, slows are slows, end.

 

[Blatherskite]

^Don't mind the noob. Yea, he's pretty much screwed.

 

[-NEOLINK-]

ganon's aerials are laggy but, we will find ways to get around that. After all, any character can be played well if you work hard. also Ganon's specials are faster.

 

[flashfox]

lol, ganon's specials being faster is really gonna help.

Unless forward b has jab like priority and lack of lag, competitive ganon players/mainers are in big trouble.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vNACWMPfW5o we see an u-air, Magus420

 

[Endless Nightmares]

Ugh, I'm afraid that Ganon players will easily be overcome by shieldgrabbing. -_-

Looks like we'll have to move to a ground-based strategy.

 

[Warlock*G]

Ok wait wait wait... Has L-cancelling been removed? Or is it that heavy characters can't use L-cancel?

 

[Endless Nightmares]

It's gone.

 

[Warlock*G]

Ok.

Ok...

Oh wait what the **** is that ****.

So Sakurai decides, along with a team of devs, to simplify the game so much that they put their priority on stickers "for the casuals" instead of competition and remove L-cancel. Then, by sheer laziness, they decide to clone Ganondorf, then they *still* give him his sword as a taunt, as a final slap to our faces.

That seriously sucks. I really feel like punching something right now.

 

[Irow]

Wait Magus, since Brawl runs twice as many frames as Melee, don't you think you're comparison to Melee Ganondorf is a little off? No way is Ganondorf's Fair nearly three times slower.

So you counted how many frames in the video it took for Ganondorf after his move, then doubled it to account for 60 frames per second in Brawl, correct. Since Melee ran at 30 frames per second, you would also have to double the numbers if you wanted a correct comparison to Brawl frame times. Well, that's how I deduce it at least. Correct me if I'm wrong, please.

 

[Wyvern]

This makes me so sad. I absolutely adored Ganondorf in Melee, and the entire point of his moveset, the thing that made him distinctive, is the fact that not only were his aerials ungodly powerful, but they had very reasonable amounts of delay and lag on them. It let you press a powerhouse offensive in ways that Bowser could only dream of, and he made up for it with his horrendously bad general maneuverability and having the single most edgeguardable recovery in the game. Excellent offense, terrible defense, just like you'd expect for the wielder of the Triforce of Power.

He just looks completely useless in these videos. He lost everything that made him Ganondorf before. I was watching a live feed the other day, and I swear it looked like his jab had like a full second of lag afterwards.

 

[Team Giza]

Nothing wrong with the removal of L-canceling, it never added depth in the first place.

The problem is they don;t seem to have taken this into account when making Ganondorf. Many characters in brawl have their aerial landing lag reduced to melee's l-canceled frames or less but Ganondorf has more lag than he had without L-canceling. The only thing that can keep Ganondorf alive in tournaments is gonna be if he gives an INSANE amount of shield stun, which I don't see happening. Oh well... maybe we will find some new techniques in the future.

 

[Warlock*G]

Yeah, let's hope for nerw techs... you know, I wasn't *that* angry about Ganondorf not having his sword... but now I realize that if he had got it, maybe his range would compensate for his lack of speed.

Edit: time to *really* make Wario my main, as I had envisionned.

 

[Endless Nightmares]

Wait Magus, since Brawl runs twice as many frames as Melee, don't you think you're comparison to Melee Ganondorf is a little off? No way is Ganondorf's Fair nearly three times slower.

So you counted how many frames in the video it took for Ganondorf after his move, then doubled it to account for 60 frames per second in Brawl, correct. Since Melee ran at 30 frames per second, you would also have to double the numbers if you wanted a correct comparison to Brawl frame times. Well, that's how I deduce it at least. Correct me if I'm wrong, please.

Melee didn't run at 30 frames per second. The video on youtube did. So each frame in the video was actually two frames.

 

[Irow]

Wow... Then that's pretty garbage. Although it doesn't look that slow, I guess the frame data proves me wrong. Does anyone have damage percents yet? Because if it's even slower than it was in Melee, it better be stronger.

 

[greenblob]

No more dair combos, then...

*Says goodbye to the dair>dair>tech-chase>fair combo that I've always adored*

 

[Lavos]

Oh, **** you Sakurai!!!

What have you done to my Ganon!?! WHAT'S WRONG WITH YOU!?!? I swear, my dreams have been shattered time and time again by updates about this game and I let them go, but did you really have to kill Ganon? He was fine in Melee. He had a great balance of power and mobility restrictions. He didn't need you to **** him with your lowest common denominator mentality.

Fair spacing: DEAD
Jab: DEAD
down B recovery: DEAD
Any form of maneuverability that Advanced techs gave him: DEAD

This is the straw that breaks the camel's back. It might seem dumb, but I'm honestly not excited for Brawl anymore. The king of evil has fallen.

 

[Magus420]

Hey flashfox, can you tell me the time in that video they land on the ground with an u-air? The only u-air I'm seeing is the one high up in the air on the sandbag at the beginning.

From the aerials I've seen connect they seem to do less damage overall than before, though I don't know how the actual knockback compares.


Also, looking at his B moves that were actually good, they definitely all do a lot less damage.
(Melee -> Brawl)

Up-B: 17 -> 11
Down-B: 15 -> 10
Side-B: 17 -> 9


The up-b as an attack nerf is quite bad imo because I can see up-b out of shield being a very important part of making this guy playable on a high level in Brawl with his gimped air game if it can function in the same way as it did before. While underrated and underused imo overall in Melee, it was a very good technique against attacks on the shield that were normally unpunishable in time due to the spacing or landing behind the shield which seems like will be more important in Brawl with likely less safe shield-pressure options. It did as much damage as a f-air would in Melee but here it does a lot less =/ Also, IF it ends up coming out significantly faster than in Melee that would be awesome and likely become a huge part of his playstyle imo (think Bowser's up-b OoS).

The side-b also loses its instant pullback/dodge property from what I can tell, which was extremely good against spacing, working as a sidestep and immediate counterattack that also often sets up a good combo all in one. Hopefully the new one counts as a grab, can still be used effectively to techchase, and has some other good aspects to make up for the loss of a good dodge and combo setup move along with doing half as much damage basically.

The down-b now has him a good amount above the ground. It was quite an effective techchasing move in Melee. Hopefully it isn't too high off that you go over characters that are laying down/bouncing/techrolling/etc. If it can't hit certain landing options of theirs it won't be nearly as good for this, but then again he may not have much better options regardless. Kirby was actually able to duck completely underneath this move before when it wasn't nearly as elevated though so that could keep it from working very well for that. It also doesn't seem like it'd have any use for recovery anymore either.

 

[flashfox]

Sorry, I thought I saw one, but now I can't find it. It definitely wasn't the early one in the video though. I'll keep looking. =(

 

[ecstatic]

Can't you cancel all lag of aerials by sh->ff->THEN aerial? That's what it was in E-for-All...

 

[Magus420]

^^ It too was also removed from the game in a later demo and is still not present in the final version of the game.

 

[jellis186]

Sorry for the noob question, but how exactly does super armor work in brawl?

 

[Warlock*G]

I think it's supposed to protect the heavier characters by making them invincible during some frames of their attacks.

 

[flashfox]

Yeah, thats basically what I've read too. It's where you don't get knockbacked and your attacks still go through, even if you are hit. Think of it like a punch vs a train, the punch hits the train, but the train still moves through it.

 

[Stryks]

Well im sure ganon will plenty of super armor, hopefully but remember what gimpy said, he said L cancelling was performed in brawl by jumping>fast falling> attacking

where in melee its jumping>attacking>fast falling, have they tried that out??

 

[Magus420]

remember what gimpy said, he said L cancelling was performed in brawl by jumping>fast falling> attacking

where in melee its jumping>attacking>fast falling, have they tried that out??

^^ It too was also removed from the game in a later demo and is still not present in the final version of the game.

 

[Endless Nightmares]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mdbFF7Jf898

What do you think now? >.>

 

[looduhcriss]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mdbFF7Jf898

What do you think now? >.>

omg that was amazing Ganon to me looks like he still has it

the Fairs and the Uairs and did anyone c the Dtilt? and it looks like if u dont sweetspot his UpB it still hits them w/o the grab effect and FwdB looks good for interceptin aerials. All of it was amazing, too bad he didnt use Bair.

i think Ganon will be playable cuz if Gimpyfish can rock Bowser in Melee then Ganon lovers will be able to rock in Brawl.

and is it me or is Bowser faster than Ganon? best Ganon gameplay vid EVAR!

 

[Jx31]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mdbFF7Jf898

What do you think now? >.>

That made me feel...some what better, however, that was against bowser faster as he seems.

 

[Endless Nightmares]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KR83t02JY5E

lol side B techchase...it's chaingrabbish

 

[triforceswordmaster]

that video really made me feel good about using ganon again. finally a skilled player makes a ganon vid.