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Will Custom move sets be allowed at Tournaments?

Do you want it allowed?

  • Yes

    Votes: 66 45.8%
  • No

    Votes: 83 57.6%

  • Total voters
    144
  • Poll closed .

Jellyfish4102

Smash Journeyman
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None of the custom abilities we've seen are OP. Mario's has the option for a bigger but slower fireball. DK's side B can have super armor but now has tons of starter lag. A lot of people are ignoring the fact that these abilities have already been balanced. Could there be a combination of custom abilities that makes a character OP? It's certainly possible. However it's a fact that in every game one character is better then the rest. Custom abilities won't change that.
 

GamerGuy09

Smash Master
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We're talking about custom move sets, not a single custom move. This raises even more issues:

  • What's the rubric for banning a single ability?
  • How many custom abilities should we allow to a single character?
  • What if it has large implications for the character's net strength? For example, what if there is a move so significantly powerful that it would single-handedly place the character into much higher tiers, but because of its abusive power it was banned, leaving the otherwise strong character very underplayed? How do you make that kind of judgement call?
  • What if a character has at least two strong abilities that are individually acceptable, but together make the character too powerful?
  • What if the alternative versions of abilities are just more useful and that there are the only meaningful abilities to keep? What kind of depth does that add when there is only one meaningful choice?
  • If we are banning to prevent abuse, should we be forcing strong characters to use weaker abilities?
These are not simple issues. Allowing abilities opens up very broad avenues of discussions that may not see resolution because it not only based largely on a preference for them, but it also leads to even further debate based on whatever else you might prefer, such as using the abilities as a means for keeping the cast as balanced as possible. It's a ruleset nightmare. It's okay to want custom abilities purely because you like the, but if you want to allow abilities because you believe they add competitive depth, the onus is on you to show it that it would be meaningful and, just as importantly, manageable.

I'm not against even innately against custom moves, but while there may be reasons to including them, there are still compelling reasons not to yet.

The meaningful depth in a competitive game is partially gauged by the players options for play and counterplay. The way I see that custom moves could add meaning is as part of the counterpick system, where the defeated player is allowed to forego picking a counterpick stage and instead allowed to choose a custom ability and deferring the stage pick or picking a second starter stage. I think that would be a fairly interesting way to handle the custom abilities,



Obviously? What makes it so obvious? Should we obviously automatically include items until we remember why we banned them in the first place?
Okay, obviously I don't know the extent. However I think it is not as broad people say it is. There is probably a point system or there are maybe 2 presets per special move. Let's look at the examples we were given:

Mario's Fireballs: The bigger fire ball probably does triple damage and higher knockback, but it is very very slow. The light one would probably have weaker knockback and deal little to no damage, while it is very quick.

DK's Headbutt: While that Armor looks off the wall, it has such a long start up you will be a punching bag.

Kirby's Inhale: He loses a pretty big part of the character to not inhale and use copy abilities, but he gets a decent ice move? Seems like a good trade.

Pits Circle Arrows: He loses some range, but he is more defensive. Seems like a personal preference.

Marth's Shield Beaker: Reminds me of Ike's Forward B. It will probably deal less damage and can also charge the distance.

So far I haven't seen anything to crazy to warrant an instant ban. I completely agree with you that this should be a counter pick system as the guy in the video talks about. Hopefully we don't write it off as cheap and meaningless.
 
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BADGRAPHICS

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We don't know the extent of the customization at present. For that reason, the question should not be "should we allow this?", but instead "should we experiment with this?".

There can be no harm in running custom-moveset tournaments to see how it plays out.
 

Radical Bones

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I think they could work. If they're not too over the top, then it would keep us on out feet a bit - not knowing what to expect, so you can only plan a counter to a degree.
 

NisforSmash

Smash Journeyman
Joined
May 28, 2013
Messages
433
If customization is limited to only specials which it seems like it will be i don't see a reason why not. It would probably balance the game even further because characters will have different ways to deal with different playstyles.
 

Dr. James Rustles

Daxinator
Joined
Mar 24, 2008
Messages
4,019
Nintendo has made it very clear that these are not for competition by banning the customizations from online play.
Just as Nintendo made it very clear that 4-man items-on Top 2 brackets are for competition by featuring them in official Nintendo tournaments.
 

SS-bros14

Smash Champion
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I don't think so.
I especially think custom characters won't be allowed. I can tell that'll be frowned upon in competitive play. :laugh:
 

GamerGuy09

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I don't think so.
I especially think custom characters won't be allowed. I can tell that'll be frowned upon in competitive play. :laugh:
Because choosing your assist in Marvel or CREATING your assist in skull girls is frowned upon?
 

gamer8

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I thought more people were for this than against it... Am I thinking of the wrong thread or something? This one was last posted in on the 10th of April before today, when we had no information about it.
 

RascalTheCharizard

Smash Ace
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Apr 10, 2012
Messages
987

Sensei

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I think the developers are planning it so all movesets will be balanced, but who knows as the metagame progresses. It is ultimately up to the TOs and community.
 

Gidy

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I honestly think that Nintendo and Sakurai are embracing the competitive community, the way they play, and what they are in to, as seen in grand finals for the tournaments they hosted. However, they may have just made a new way to play competitively, so I REALLY hope that custom movesets are allowed. If not, I'll start it off and host online tournaments that allow custom movesets xD.
This video describes my feelings perfectly toward the matter:
 
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JamietheAuraUser

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somewhere west of Unova
I'm pretty sure the majority has always been the "against" camp.

Maybe this was the thread you were thinking of: http://smashboards.com/threads/legality-custom-special-moves-maybe-modifiable-attributes-no.357972/
Yeah, that's the one. And in that thread, someone brought the Relax Alax vid up pretty early on and almost the entirety of posters that showed up afterwards were all in favour of including Custom Moves in official tournaments, barring complications with unlocks (which I've hard might have been fixed by a new Wii U system update) or setup time.
 

κomıc

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I think the custom movesets will bring set backs to the character judging on how Kid Icarus Uprising used "Powers". There is going to be a limit and you're going to have to adjust not only to the buffs but the potential weaknesses it may bring. Is it worth getting a Super Armor with DK's side-B at the expense of taking more damage than normal (this is hypothetical, so bear with me)?

Hopefully by next month the website will touch base more on how this thing works and what it imposes on players if they choose to use them. I'm guessing you're going to only be allowed two custom specials that will adjust the character's stats (damage in-take, knock back, etc)

With those in mind, I think these things will determine if they are viable for local tournaments.
 
D

Deleted member 245254

Guest
Lmao...

"Competitive" players seriously confuse the hell out of me...

All they whinge about in the majority of threads is having offensive options, and here we are discussing the epitome of what could be defined as having options, and they want to ban it before knowing anything about it...then they say they aren't afraid of change. Just because it happens before the actual match begins doesn't mean it isn't part of the process towards winning. The real match starts at the character select screen, you all know that.

The blatant hypocrisy is mind blowing, and I hate feeling like I'm the only one seeing it.
 
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jondgc

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Hi guys, first post here on Smash Boards.

To me, the opportunity to customize movesets opens up such amazing potential for tournament play. I am by no means a professional smasher, and I understand there are factors such as time and balance at play, but I really feel it will open up the scene and grow it like never before. I've read posts here and elsewhere where people have said they've needed to learn to play with specific characters to be competitive in previous games, but if customizable movesets allow "low-tier" characters to be viable against "high-tier" characters, more players will be interested in competing. It is a jarring experience for an amateur player to take their favorite character into a competitive situation, only to get obliterated because it turns out that character is bottom-tier. Furthermore, from a spectator's standpoint, more people will become interested in seeing so many varied matchups, which in turn could lead them to play themselves and improve their own games. Lastly, with the ability to customize movesets, the meta has an even longer development cycle, which can keep the game fresh for years to come. Melee has had a strong community keeping it in the tournament scene, but for the scene to evolve and grow, the community will have to accept a new entry in the series eventually. I hope things work out and these customatizations do lead to an exciting new era in Smash.

...but having said all this, if they end up totally breaking things they should probably be banned. Let's give them a chance first!
 

RascalTheCharizard

Smash Ace
Joined
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Messages
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Yeah, that's the one. And in that thread, someone brought the Relax Alax vid up pretty early on and almost the entirety of posters that showed up afterwards were all in favour of including Custom Moves in official tournaments, barring complications with unlocks (which I've hard might have been fixed by a new Wii U system update) or setup time.
Alax's video bothers me, because nearly everything he puts in his argument we already covered in the aforementioned thread and everyone who hasn't seen that thread starts acting like he's the messiah of Smash Bros. Well that, and people are now referring to the Fast Fireball (which was confirmed to be its official name) as the "quickscope" fireball, just because that's what he calls it. Yes I know, I'm a hipster asshole. Just the side-effect of being in the minority group collectively called Smashboards I guess.
 
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Egg-Off the Conquerer

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I think their legality will really be tied down by the legality of miis. Miis are also banned in online play and are time consuming to make.

I reeeally hope custom moves are tourney legal as the ones we've seen so far certainly don't seem too strong but I'm not holding my breath
 

UnownLegend

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It would be such a missed opportunity to not at least give it a shot, the more we hear about it, the more i think it could totally work as being legal, unless it just proves to make certain characters super op, but there's only one way to know that for sure
 
D

Deleted member 245254

Guest
I think their legality will really be tied down by the legality of miis. Miis are also banned in online play and are time consuming to make.

I reeeally hope custom moves are tourney legal as the ones we've seen so far certainly don't seem too strong but I'm not holding my breath
I doubt in the event that Mii's are given a competitive stint that it will involve waiting on people to create their own unique Mii's. We will probably force "Mii mains" to go with the very default construction given at the character select screen.
 

jondgc

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Miis would probably be one of the easier things to implement to a tournament -- couldn't you transfer them on a Wiimote, or an SD card? Then the character is already configured and would require no further setup at that point.
 

One Handed Sword

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Accept it. It is almost the same as picking different ultras for SF4 and we did not ban that.
 

NisforSmash

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Messages
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I feel that they will be accepted with time.
I'll put it this way. If you ban custom movesets for fear of a possible "OP" combination, you open the door even wider for a possibly unbeatable OP combination. Imagine if in melee everyone could change just 1 of their special moves to something else.
The tier list would not only be radically different but potentially more balanced
 

BlueBubbee

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I personally doubt it unless you can load them onto a controller/amiibo. I don't think they'd be broken, it's just that it'd be such a hassle to make a name and set all of your custom sets to the character before the tournament. Also, what if someone shows up late and doesn't have a chance to set their CMs? That'd be a bit unfair.
 

topspin1617

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I personally doubt it unless you can load them onto a controller/amiibo. I don't think they'd be broken, it's just that it'd be such a hassle to make a name and set all of your custom sets to the character before the tournament. Also, what if someone shows up late and doesn't have a chance to set their CMs? That'd be a bit unfair.
Or... hey, you're late, and there are consequences.

Anyway, assuming that it isn't TOO difficult to customize a character or two, I guess I don't see any reason to assume it would be a problem? I mean, for example, we already have players in Brawl etc. that enter their names and customize their control scheme. As long as move customization doesn't add an unreasonable amount of time to this process, I think they definitely should be given a shot. I think it would add nothing but depth to the game.
 

LancerStaff

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I think the custom movesets will bring set backs to the character judging on how Kid Icarus Uprising used "Powers". There is going to be a limit and you're going to have to adjust not only to the buffs but the potential weaknesses it may bring. Is it worth getting a Super Armor with DK's side-B at the expense of taking more damage than normal (this is hypothetical, so bear with me)?

Hopefully by next month the website will touch base more on how this thing works and what it imposes on players if they choose to use them. I'm guessing you're going to only be allowed two custom specials that will adjust the character's stats (damage in-take, knock back, etc)

With those in mind, I think these things will determine if they are viable for local tournaments.
Just wanted to say that powers typically don't have drawbacks. It's basically just Lightweight (+speed and +damage taken) and Trade-Off (+attack, +speed, and drop to 1hp) and that powers themselves are in Smash Run. Even the names of the powers are the same!

I'm pretty sure it's just three versions of moves for each character.
 

pizzapie7

Smash Ace
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Messages
531
Lmao...

"Competitive" players seriously confuse the hell out of me...

All they whinge about in the majority of threads is having offensive options, and here we are discussing the epitome of what could be defined as having options, and they want to ban it before knowing anything about it...then they say they aren't afraid of change. Just because it happens before the actual match begins doesn't mean it isn't part of the process towards winning. The real match starts at the character select screen, you all know that.

The blatant hypocrisy is mind blowing, and I hate feeling like I'm the only one seeing it.
Is it possible for you to make a post without either making a fool of yourself, sounding like an asshole, or both?



I'm all for custom moves. They seem fun and interesting and the feature is one of the few things that has me looking forward to this game. I just hope that adjusting movesets is intuitively designed.
 
D

Deleted member 245254

Guest
Is it possible for you to make a post without either making a fool of yourself, sounding like an *******, or both?



I'm all for custom moves. They seem fun and interesting and the feature is one of the few things that has me looking forward to this game. I just hope that adjusting movesets is intuitively designed.
I could ask a consistent few of you the same question...but I don't because it's not going to change anything.

I just don't like whining. I was raised not to whimp and cry over something I don't like, I take it in stride, learn to deal with the hand I'm dealt, because in the end we're all mostly & generally better for it.

So I can't really help myself.
 
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