Smash Wii U Wii U is hackable - Will there be mods again?

[Silent Hell]

Now I'm not competitive or anything, but does any real competitive player take insult to the fact that Sakurai only allows FD on For Glory mode? I couldn't help but laugh a little.

 

[Senario]

Now I'm not competitive or anything, but does any real competitive player take insult to the fact that Sakurai only allows FD on For Glory mode? I couldn't help but laugh a little.

Not really take offense just laugh at the lack of research done. Competitive play is a lot more than just Final destination and even the invitational showed that with finals being held on battlefield, the stage that generally is considered the most neutral. Generally, Sakurai is probably only appealing to competitive players because Nintendo is dragging him around whether he likes it or not. It doesn't seem like he has any interest in making competitive play better.

Sakurai's decision probably comes from online data about stages picked in brawl. He saw lots of FD and Smashville so he probably just assumed it was the competitive stage. It used to be but not anymore.

 

[Renji64]

Agreed. I'm guessing you like melee and project m more than brawl? And if so can you explain why? (Not bashing you just want to know your personal view)

To keep it short I like freedom the new smash installments feel very restrictve. The older ones and P:M let move and play my character how i want 2. I plan giving smash 4 a chance i have lowered my expections alot.

 

[Cassio]

All due respect, let's be real here. Project M is the weakest smash 'installment' competitively and not worth making a sequel unless its a "for fun" sort of thing like Brawl-. While I respect its developers and the work they do (like all mods), competitively its by far the least challenging and rewarding of the smash installments that you really cant hold it up to the actual smash games (the neutral and punishment games are crazy easy compared to 64/melee/brawl). Top players have been speaking against it (they said it privately before but now its more publlic) and I say this as the best Project M player in my region, the game is just too easy to succeed in and the depth isnt there.

The following obviously doesnt apply to everyone, but the way the games made its mainly attractive to noobies and fed-up mid/high level players that peaked in their respective game of origin since it provides easier success, while the best players even in PM are still playing other games. I dont think thats a competitive environment worth recreating.

Being completely serious and honest with this post btw, would gladly hear opinions otherwise but the way things look right now this outlook seems to be how things stand.

 

[LancerStaff]

Now I'm not competitive or anything, but does any real competitive player take insult to the fact that Sakurai only allows FD on For Glory mode? I couldn't help but laugh a little.

Well first of all, Japan has always had highly conservative stage lists. SSB64's was, without a doubt, Dreamland only. Second, Sakurai was balanceing the game around the stage, so naturally he'd pick what appears to be the most balanced stage. And lastly, even adding BF wouldn't of really pleased anybody, so he went with the option that he couldn't screw up.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Can't help be negative from a dude who added tripping.

He removed it when he also learned it was a really bad idea.

 

[Silent Hell]

All due respect, let's be real here. Project M is the weakest smash 'installment' competitively and not worth making a sequel unless its a "for fun" sort of thing like Brawl-. While I respect its developers and the work they do (like all mods), competitively its by far the least challenging and rewarding of the smash installments that you really cant hold it up to the actual smash games (the neutral and punishment games are crazy easy compared to 64/melee/brawl). Top players have been speaking against it (they said it privately before but now its more publlic) and I say this as the best Project M player in my region, the game is just too easy to succeed in and the depth isnt there.

The following obviously doesnt apply to everyone, but the way the games made its mainly attractive to noobies and fed-up mid/high level players that peaked in their respective game of origin since it provides easier success, while the best players even in PM are still playing other games. I dont think thats a competitive environment worth recreating.

Being completely serious and honest with this post btw, would gladly hear opinions otherwise but the way things look right now this outlook seems to be how things stand.

Can you provide any links to these comments? Not trying to sound like an arse but that part is just anecdotal.

Also, how can it be the weakest if supposedly it's overtaking Brawl in tourney's. I don't see how making punishing easier means it's worse than all three installments combined.

 

[Xigger]

Now I'm not competitive or anything, but does any real competitive player take insult to the fact that Sakurai only allows FD on For Glory mode? I couldn't help but laugh a little.

I actually don't: if you look at it from a practical point of view, it's easier to take from a stage to make it flat, than add to it.

 

[Dr. James Rustles]

Facepalm.

And this goes back to developers game vs what modders think it should be.

I paid for my copy of Smash Bros., I'm going to do what I want with it.

Segregating the smash community is my point

What's your solution? Having people play a game competitively that they don't want to?

 

[LancerStaff]

I paid for my copy of Smash Bros., I'm going to do what I want with it.




What's your solution? Having people play a game competitively that they don't want to?

You paid for a ticket for a game that Nintendo can take whenever they want.

They could just play the old games.

 

[Cassio]

Can you provide any links to these comments? Not trying to sound like an arse but that part is just anecdotal.

Also, how can it be the weakest if supposedly it's overtaking Brawl in tourney's. I don't see how making punishing easier means it's worse than all three installments combined.

Theyve been on facebook and reddit the past couple weeks. I used to hear them in private conversations but didnt want to point any names that didnt go public. But M2K, Armada, PP Leffen, Hungrybox, pretty much every top level melee player in socal, ally, etc. Really too many to name all of them.

I mean weakest competitively as in it it doesnt take significant effort to be successful. Its reflected in the game's design, results, and its top level players.

I paid for my copy of Smash Bros., I'm going to do what I want with it.

What's your solution? Having people play a game competitively that they don't want to?

Pay for melee instead. It seems odd to buy a game and then mod it to make it even more casual friendly.

 

[Xigger]

Also, how can it be the weakest if supposedly it's overtaking Brawl in tourney's.

Project M's popularity in the tourney crowd doesn't mean that it is better or more refined than other games: it means it's more popular. If the best players, who know more about the subject, say it isn't the best, they probably know better than we do.

 

[Bobojack]

Honestly, the problem was that the op put project m, instead of mod's in general. Nobody would rage at another brawl minus type mod. Also PM2 has a 0% chance of happening.

The thread is called "Will there be mods again?" and nothing about Project M. I just did a poll which title is "Do you want a Project M- Kinda-thing?". Something like a project that wants to change sm4sh`s gameplay into a bit more melee-like gameplay. Im sorry if anything caused for confusion.

 

[Dr. James Rustles]

Pay for melee instead. It seems odd to buy a game and then mod it to make it even more casual friendly.

You must live in some crazy fantasy land where where the only sensible things to own are products set to factory settings. It doesn't seem odd at all to do what the hell you want to do with something you own. Want a different coat of paint for your car? Want to get a wider seat for your bike? What's really odd is caring what other people do with their own game or car or bicycle. It's manufacturer worship and it blows my mind how stupid it is.

It's exhausting to hear someone having a problem with changing a game that's intrinsically about having a customizable experience in the first place. I remember back in the day bringing up Brawl+ over all-chat in a TF2 server and someone said, "How bad does a game have to be that you need to change it?" and yet here we were, playing TF2, the most updated game in history by both the community and the original authors on top of having a developer kit and Gary's Mod resources with more server-to-server mod variety than I've seen anywhere else. I almost had a ****ing aneurysm.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Can you provide any links to these comments? Not trying to sound like an arse but that part is just anecdotal.

Also, how can it be the weakest if supposedly it's overtaking Brawl in tourney's. I don't see how making punishing easier means it's worse than all three installments combined.

MvC3 has a lot of people playing it, the gameplay is degenerate with really long 0-death combos.

Twilight sold a lot of movie tickets, all the movie sucks.

 

[Dr. James Rustles]

MvC3 has a lot of people playing it, the gameplay is degenerate with really long 0-death combos.

Twilight sold a lot of movie tickets, all the movie sucks.

That's great, but nothing you said has anything to do with what Silent Hell is talking about.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

That's great, but nothing you said has anything to do with what Silent Hell is talking about.

Can you provide any links to these comments? Not trying to sound like an arse but that part is just anecdotal.

Also, how can it be the weakest if supposedly it's overtaking Brawl in tourney's. I don't see how making punishing easier means it's worse than all three installments combined.

Being more popular or more wanted =/= the gameplay being solid in places.

 

[Xigger]

That's great, but nothing you said has anything to do with what Silent Hell is talking about.

Can you provide any links to these comments? Not trying to sound like an arse but that part is just anecdotal.

Also, how can it be the weakest if supposedly it's overtaking Brawl in tourney's. I don't see how making punishing easier means it's worse than all three installments combined.

Project M's popularity in the tourney crowd doesn't mean that it is better or more refined than other games: it means it's more popular. If the best players, who know more about the subject, say it isn't the best, they probably know better than we do.

 

[Silent Hell]

Pay for melee instead. It seems odd to buy a game and then mod it to make it even more casual friendly.

It's even more casual friendly than Brawl? Ummm you have some low standards for casual play.

Forgive me though, I don't actually follow the smash scene as much so could you provide a direct quote from these individuals?

You paid for a ticket for a game that Nintendo can take whenever they want.

They could just play the old games.

So Nintendo will come to my house and take away my copy of Brawl because I play Project M?

No they can't and won't. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lewis_Galoob_Toys,_Inc._v._Nintendo_of_America,_Inc.

It's our copies and we can modify it to our heart's content if we want to and that shouldn't be a problem to you.

Being more popular or more wanted =/= the gameplay being solid in places.

It's obviously doing something right if reviewers think it transformed Brawl into a serious game.

 

[Bladeviper]

It's even more casual friendly than Brawl? Ummm you have some low standards for casual play.

Forgive me though, I don't actually follow the smash scene as much so could you provide a direct quote from these individuals?



So Nintendo will come to my house and take away my copy of Brawl because I play Project M?

No they can't and won't. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lewis_Galoob_Toys,_Inc._v._Nintendo_of_America,_Inc.

It's our copies and we can modify it to our heart's content if we want to and that shouldn't be a problem to you.



It's obviously doing something right if reviewers think it transformed Brawl into a serious game.

i thinks its more along the lines of nintendo can ban you from online play or shut down the mod, both of which are within there rights to do since against the tos of the wii u, they most likely won't since they know of pm and have not done anything about it

 

[RascalTheCharizard]

It's honestly hard to take anyone seriously when they say PM is easy or especially lacking in depth (it's deeper than Melee lol).

So what about it other than the punish game is so "easy" that it makes it weaker than a game that revolves around a masked asshole and 0-death chaingrabs? Actually while you're at it, please elaborate on what makes the punish game objectively easier? (Inb4 jumpstart is one more frame)

All these top players (except maybe Ally) don't play (or care tbh) about PM as much as their maingame. Case in point; M2K. His complaint is needing to learn matchups. Um... Lolwut I thought that was to be expected going into a game with like 20 characters that weren't in Melee and many that were tweaked to be viable. On the subject of M2K, he said many times on Reddit that he doesn't hate PM, he actually "loves" it. The thing he doesn't like are people exploiting their character's design without backing it up with solid fundamentals and then claiming that they're really good. PP just doesn't play PM at all. He give it a shot and disliked it because "jank" and "recoveries r too stronk". Haven't heard those before. At least M2K's complaints (and tournament results) show that he has put time into PM.

 

[Cassio]

Subject 1

Forgive me though, I don't actually follow the smash scene as much so could you provide a direct quote from these individuals?

It's honestly hard to take anyone seriously when they say PM is easy or especially lacking in depth (it's deeper than Melee lol).

-m2k

You can win at PM and you still feel ****ty
-HBox

The game is not bad or like brawl. I think PM is pretty fun BUT it has two major flaws according to me.

1: So many recoveries is WAY to good. When multiple chars basically have a recovery when you should never try to edgeguard them you know something is wrong

2: the combos are way to automatic. This means the combos is way easier to do and DI have less of a impact (kill from a direct throw or throw plus one move is also extremly common).

This two problems leads to some other stuff.

1: Less areas to master since the "answer" for these situations is so obvious and you can't do anything against it.

2: since you have less areas to master I do think in PM in terms of being "overall smart" is not as benefited as some people may wanna see.

The complexity and variation (decission wise)was something beautiful with Melee. PM got variation on the cast but I do think the price they payed for it is not worth it.

-Armada

Your statement would mean that we shouldnt take any good smash players seriously. PP's is posted in the PM boards, and I really dont want to go into too much detail about every single thing everybodys said.

All these top players (except maybe Ally) don't play (or care tbh) about PM as much as their maingame. Case in point; M2K. His complaint is needing to learn matchups. Um... Lolwut I thought that was to be expected going into a game with like 20 characters that weren't in Melee and many that were tweaked to be viable. On the subject of M2K, he said many times on Reddit that he doesn't hate PM, he actually "loves" it. The thing he doesn't like are people exploiting their character's design without backing it up with solid fundamentals and then claiming that they're really good. PP just doesn't play PM at all. He give it a shot and disliked it because "jank" and "recoveries r too stronk". Haven't heard those before. At least M2K's complaints (and tournament results) show that he has put time into PM.

Youre correct that all of these top players don't play the game too much, but they're also the top players of PM. That in itself says something about the game. The game is fun forsure, Im not even trying to hate on that. But M2K definitely called it easy (feel free to post the reddit thread) and the large majority high/top level player from another game agree. PMers for whatever reason absolutely refuse to accept the games traits/weaknesses even though its the only game they've ever played seriously or succeeded at.

So what about it other than the punish game is so "easy" that it makes it weaker than a game that revolves around a masked ******* and 0-death chaingrabs? Actually while you're at it, please elaborate on what makes the punish game objectively easier? (Inb4 jumpstart is one more frame)

I think it was elaborated above by one of the pros. Punish game is very simple and straightforward. This is less true in melee and its MUCH less true in Brawl. And you cant take the punish game lightly, thats roughly 50% of the game. The neutral game is also easier. You might not have liked MK or ICs, thats understandable because they could be frustrating and took effort to learn to beat. But they were also difficult characters to use, and learning to fight or use them was challenging and took effort.

It's even more casual friendly than Brawl? Ummm you have some low standards for casual play.

It's obviously doing something right if reviewers think it transformed Brawl into a serious game.

Explained a lot of this above, but Brawl isnt casual friendly at all competitiely. If anything, Brawl is the most difficult game for casuals at a competitive level. In any case, something thats frustrating, competitive, or challenging can definitely turn people away, so numbers really arent reliable.

In reality PM is the game that attracts those interested in less competitive play, the noobies of the scene and upset mid/high level players that peaked; switching into a game that provides easier success, but still consistently losing to those who play other games.

Subject 2

So Nintendo will come to my house and take away my copy of Brawl because I play Project M?

No they can't and won't. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lewis_Galoob_Toys,_Inc._v._Nintendo_of_America,_Inc.

It's our copies and we can modify it to our heart's content if we want to and that shouldn't be a problem to you.



It's obviously doing something right if reviewers think it transformed Brawl into a serious game.

You must live in some crazy fantasy land where where the only sensible things to own are products set to factory settings. It doesn't seem odd at all to do what the hell you want to do with something you own. Want a different coat of paint for your car? Want to get a wider seat for your bike? What's really odd is caring what other people do with their own game or car or bicycle. It's manufacturer worship and it blows my mind how stupid it is.

It's exhausting to hear someone having a problem with changing a game that's intrinsically about having a customizable experience in the first place. I remember back in the day bringing up Brawl+ over all-chat in a TF2 server and someone said, "How bad does a game have to be that you need to change it?" and yet here we were, playing TF2, the most updated game in history by both the community and the original authors on top of having a developer kit and Gary's Mod resources with more server-to-server mod variety than I've seen anywhere else. I almost had a ****ing aneurysm.

I personally am not saying you cant change it, I just think making another PM is pointless. But I did play Brawl- on my wii for a bit and thought that was pretty fun too. Although in the case of that wikipedia article, you might want to read further into it. PM is definitely on a fine line that I wouldnt bet on if Nintendo actually did try to go after them.

The Ninth Circuit referred to the Galoob ruling in Micro Star v. FormGen Inc., a case involving user-created levels for the video game Duke Nukem 3D. In that case, Judge Alex Kozinski concluded that the fair use analysis in Galoob v. Nintendo is "dicta" (non-binding), and ruled in favor of the copyright holder.[4]

 

[Acadian Flycatcher]

Why is this thread still the most popular?

 

[Malkior7]

I love how the Wii U is hacked just like that but the 3DS is seemingly untouchable

 

[Cassio]

Well speaking of the latest posts, I just decided to bring notions of what PM is back to earth so peeps understand why another project like it isnt worth it.

 

[himemiya]

When are they gonna do a Project Brawl?

 

[LancerStaff]

So Nintendo will come to my house and take away my copy of Brawl because I play Project M?

No they can't and won't. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lewis_Galoob_Toys,_Inc._v._Nintendo_of_America,_Inc.

It's our copies and we can modify it to our heart's content if we want to and that shouldn't be a problem to you.

The period isn't connected to the link for some reason. Anyway...

"A similar court case (Midway Manufacturing Co. v. Artic International, Inc.) had previously been decided in favor of the copyright holder. Nintendo relied heavily on this case as precedent for its legal arguments."
If we're going on previous cases, Nintendo thought of that already. They lost, yes, but check out the horrid logic behind the defense...

"After over a year of legal wrangling, the trial concluded in July of 1991, with District Judge Fern M. Smith ruling in favor of Galoob, declaring that the Game Genie did not violate Nintendo's copyrights. In her ruling, Smith compared usage of the Game Genie to "skipping portions of a book" or fast-forwarding through a purchased movie; thus the altered game content did not constitute the creation of a derivative work as Nintendo had argued."
Clearly the judge didn't have a clue how the Game Genie altered the game, and modding nowadays is much more extreme. And with new, more strict, laws having been passed since the nineties, Nintendo could easily win a case against hacking. That, and the Wii U and 3DS TOS says something to the effect of "Nintendo can brick your system whenever the hell they want."

 

[RascalTheCharizard]

Well speaking of the latest posts, I just decided to bring notions of what PM is back to earth so peeps understand why another project like it isnt worth it.

I actually don't want another PM. I'm planning on playing Smash 4 seriously and I just want it to be good. This is why I voted "I have mixed opinions". I'd rather there not be another PM, but if worst comes to worst, I'd accept another one. I just don't get the hate for the original PM.

Your statement would mean that we shouldnt take any good smash players seriously. PP's is posted in the PM boards, and I really dont want to go into too much detail about every single thing everybodys said.

I've seen that pic from M2K, it's actually what I was referring to in the second paragraph, along with the Reddit thread about said pic. Hbox's opinion is far too subjective for me to even comment on. Armada on the other hand, I can actually get down with what he's saying. I mean two (or more) of his points actually refer to his own main. He knows what he's talking about. Indeed, some recoveries are too good. Yeah characters like Mario and Pit having freaking stupid autocombos, etc. I can take top player's opinions seriously, but not when (unlike Armada) they don't back up such hard statements like "too easy" without even bothering to explain why.

Youre correct that all of these top players don't play the game too much, but they're also the top players of PM. That in itself says something about the game. The game is fun for sure, I'm not even trying to hate on that. But M2K definitely called it easy (feel free to post the reddit thread) and the large majority high/top level player from another game agree. PMers for whatever reason absolutely refuse to accept the games traits/weaknesses even though its the only game they've ever played seriously or succeeded at.

See this is M2K's point though, the top players of PM should be the ones with the strongest fundamentals. These guys have been playing competitive Smash for years and years. But just because they're skilled, doesn't mean they know much about the game or even enjoy it (see M2K ******** about matchups for the former, and Hbox's quote that you posted for the latter). Yeah of course everyone from other games (mostly Melee) agree with one another. They're not the PM community. Heck, PM was supposed to improve Brawl, not Melee. A guy on Reddit said something along the lines of "I look at PM as a better Brawl, not a worse Melee" and I think that should be the "proper" approach to PM as a mod. We don't look past its problems. Why do you think we constantly ***** about a lot of the characters' designs? We accept its flaws and that's why we keep playing it lol. We don't find its issues to be so significant that it saps the fun out of the game.

I think it was elaborated above by one of the pros. Punish game is very simple and straightforward. This is less true in melee and its MUCH less true in Brawl. And you cant take the punish game lightly, thats roughly 50% of the game. The neutral game is also easier. You might not have liked MK or ICs, thats understandable because they could be frustrating and took effort to learn to beat. But they were also difficult characters to use, and learning to fight or use them was challenging and took effort.

Still not explaining what you mean, I see. But if I had to guess, you're referring to what Armada said right? So if that's the case then the punish game is simple and easy because people know their character's best options to catch options and rack up damage or score a KO. You know, like every other Smash game ever. There will always be moves that see more usage in a lot of situations. Why punish a mistake with Fox's Fair when you could just Dair -> Shine -> Usmash. Effective. Easy. This sort of thing is a result of the mindset of the players, sticking to their safest options. It's like why my partner ALWAYS Fthrows -> Ftilt with Roy at low %s in PM. He doesn't care about the reward for mixing things up and trying out a custom combo, he'd rather just play it safe, get "free damage" as he calls it and reset to neutral. This is why Armada is right on the money, however. If autocombos can be so rewarding, then players will punish with the same thing over and over. Doesn't help if said combo move involves grabbing too, since you can't shield it.

As an aside, did it ever occur to you that maybe that's because we have reached a new generation of players who started with Brawl but weren't very good at it and then after moving to PM started finally understanding the basics? I know I'm like that. I can just tell from seeing myself improve by watching videos of me playing both Brawl and PM that my fundamentals have come a long way since those days. Ick, look at all that rolling I did in Brawl lol.

And now about Brawl. I wasn't referring to ICs when I said chaingrabs. I meant the entire cast lmao. Falco can chain just about every character in the game at least for a while, Wario can chain, Pikachu can chain, Marth can chain, Dedede can chain, Bowser can chain, etc. If we get into stuff like the characters who have a longer release animation then it only gets worse. Wolf can chain Ness (and admittedly only Ness) for example. Brawl's metagame is dominated by this crap and is one of the primary reasons I quit that game. As mentioned above, grabs cannot be blocked and they also beat out many other moves thanks to the super armour they (barring Olimar's) have.

Haha this last part's ****ing rich. People complain about how overly-efficient PM characters are at all the things they can do and yet go and spout about how learning how to beat characters is challenging is a good thing. I hate Ness in PM, but instead of johning for a million years I eventually started trying to put in effort and actually figure out how to beat his obnoxious PK Fire. See this is what I mean when I say it's hard to take PM detractors seriously. Some of the things they say are baseless, some are incorrect and others are just plain hypocritical. Brawl is not a better game because I have to learn how to beat the metagame's most powerful threats. PM is not a better game because I have to learn how to beat its most powerful moves and characters. This works both ways. You either like challenge, or you don't.
----------------------------------------------------
TL;DR - I'll see you in Smash 4.

 

[Loungemen]

If anything, I will only mod the game's menu and CSS designs. I'm just not fond of it so far.

 

[Dr. James Rustles]

But Sakurai made it and he can't make good games so melee therefore sucks.

He said "still knew", as in Sakurai lost ability at some point, not that he never could make a good game. Learn to read or infract yourself for trolling.

 

[Metallaeus]

The real reason I don't want people to mod this game is because we should accept Smash 4 for what it is. Yes, It will have flaws. Yes, it will be different. Yes, the game will not be the same as Melee, PM, or Brawl, but that's why I look forward to it. I look forward to change, and whether or not it flops or pops, I'll still buy it and appreciate it. I want to keep it in its purest form because I think we should appreciate it for what it is and for what it has accomplished and for what it represents. I want Smash 4 to be just Smash 4, but I'm not going to go out of my way to be against any hacks or mods. I just won't really... It's not that I wouldn't support it, it's just that I wouldn't really like the idea in general.

 

[Senario]

The real reason I don't want people to mod this game is because we should accept Smash 4 for what it is. Yes, It will have flaws. Yes, it will be different. Yes, the game will not be the same as Melee, PM, or Brawl, but that's why I look forward to it. I look forward to change, and whether or not it flops or pops, I'll still buy it and appreciate it. I want to keep it in its purest form because I think we should appreciate it for what it is and for what it has accomplished and for what it represents. I want Smash 4 to be just Smash 4, but I'm not going to go out of my way to be against any hacks or mods. I just won't really... It's not that I wouldn't support it, it's just that I wouldn't really like the idea in general.

But it shouldn't matter to you what people decide to do with their games. If they mod something they are taking their own time to add or remove features of the game for fun and NOT FOR PROFIT. It is a very common thing in PC gaming and in general has lead to some of the best games out there like Team Fortress 2. Telling everybody that "you should accept the newest version as is" is a huge amount of brand loyalty that shouldn't be given unless the product actually matches up to what is expected. People wanted competitive play in brawl so they modded it, if smash 4 is similarly not deep enough for competitive play you can bet that somebody will be interested in changing things up to make it so. This just happens with popular games. If the original game does not give the experience that people want to have then people will mod it. If it does give the experience people want the farthest modding will go will be training packs like 20XX.

Another game(in fact, genre) that was created through Modding is the MOBA genre. As much as it is overused now, Dota 1 created a whole new set of games that everybody could enjoy.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

He said "still knew", as in Sakurai lost ability at some point, not that he never could make a good game. Learn to read or infract yourself for trolling.

Guess melee is a bad game.

 

[Metallaeus]

But it shouldn't matter to you what people decide to do with their games. If they mod something they are taking their own time to add or remove features of the game for fun and NOT FOR PROFIT. It is a very common thing in PC gaming and in general has lead to some of the best games out there like Team Fortress 2. Telling everybody that "you should accept the newest version as is" is a huge amount of brand loyalty that shouldn't be given unless the product actually matches up to what is expected. People wanted competitive play in brawl so they modded it, if smash 4 is similarly not deep enough for competitive play you can bet that somebody will be interested in changing things up to make it so. This just happens with popular games. If the original game does not give the experience that people want to have then people will mod it. If it does give the experience people want the farthest modding will go will be training packs like 20XX.

Another game(in fact, genre) that was created through Modding is the MOBA genre. As much as it is overused now, Dota 1 created a whole new set of games that everybody could enjoy.

Hey, if people want to do it, I'm fine with it. I'm just saying I personally don't like the idea of it and gave my reasoning already. If other people really want to be up for a Project M sequel, go ahead. That was just my opinion on the matter and my reasoning as to why I personally dislike the idea of another Project M like mod for Smash 4. If people really want to get down with changing it, fine by me. What I do is also my choice. I'm just saying that I like playing a game in its purest form.

 

[Cassio]

But it shouldn't matter to you what people decide to do with their games. If they mod something they are taking their own time to add or remove features of the game for fun and NOT FOR PROFIT. It is a very common thing in PC gaming and in general has lead to some of the best games out there like Team Fortress 2. Telling everybody that "you should accept the newest version as is" is a huge amount of brand loyalty that shouldn't be given unless the product actually matches up to what is expected. People wanted competitive play in brawl so they modded it, if smash 4 is similarly not deep enough for competitive play you can bet that somebody will be interested in changing things up to make it so. This just happens with popular games. If the original game does not give the experience that people want to have then people will mod it. If it does give the experience people want the farthest modding will go will be training packs like 20XX.

Another game(in fact, genre) that was created through Modding is the MOBA genre. As much as it is overused now, Dota 1 created a whole new set of games that everybody could enjoy.

It doesnt matter, Nintendo can still send the C&D and PM would stop development. Just because its not illegal now doesnt mean Nintendo can't bring the hammer down whenever it wants. Same with a lot of other game mods too.

But the point isnt to accept or not accept the new smash. If you dont like Brawl or Smash 4, then play melee because in the end its a superior competitive version of whatever PM game there is. PM has demonstrated it doesnt make Brawl more competitive or improve on smash games or formulas.

I actually don't want another PM. I'm planning on playing Smash 4 seriously and I just want it to be good. This is why I voted "I have mixed opinions". I'd rather there not be another PM, but if worst comes to worst, I'd accept another one. I just don't get the hate for the original PM.

See this is M2K's point though, the top players of PM should be the ones with the strongest fundamentals. These guys have been playing competitive Smash for years and years. But just because they're skilled, doesn't mean they know much about the game or even enjoy it (see M2K *****ing about matchups for the former, and Hbox's quote that you posted for the latter). Yeah of course everyone from other games (mostly Melee) agree with one another. They're not the PM community. Heck, PM was supposed to improve Brawl, not Melee. A guy on Reddit said something along the lines of "I look at PM as a better Brawl, not a worse Melee" and I think that should be the "proper" approach to PM as a mod. We don't look past its problems. Why do you think we constantly ***** about a lot of the characters' designs? We accept its flaws and that's why we keep playing it lol. We don't find its issues to be so significant that it saps the fun out of the game.

I want to emphasize theres no hate for PM. The game is fun, but in the end the game didnt improve on melee or brawl so requesting a PM for smash 4 isn't worthwhile, which is the point of this thread.

I've seen that pic from M2K, it's actually what I was referring to in the second paragraph, along with the Reddit thread about said pic. Hbox's opinion is far too subjective for me to even comment on. Armada on the other hand, I can actually get down with what he's saying. I mean two (or more) of his points actually refer to his own main. He knows what he's talking about. Indeed, some recoveries are too good. Yeah characters like Mario and Pit having freaking stupid autocombos, etc. I can take top player's opinions seriously, but not when (unlike Armada) they don't back up such hard statements like "too easy" without even bothering to explain why.

All of their opinions are more or less the same, Armada just explained his more.

Still not explaining what you mean, I see. But if I had to guess, you're referring to what Armada said right? So if that's the case then the punish game is simple and easy because people know their character's best options to catch options and rack up damage or score a KO. You know, like every other Smash game ever. There will always be moves that see more usage in a lot of situations. Why punish a mistake with Fox's Fair when you could just Dair -> Shine -> Usmash. Effective. Easy. This sort of thing is a result of the mindset of the players, sticking to their safest options. It's like why my partner ALWAYS Fthrows -> Ftilt with Roy at low %s in PM. He doesn't care about the reward for mixing things up and trying out a custom combo, he'd rather just play it safe, get "free damage" as he calls it and reset to neutral. This is why Armada is right on the money, however. If autocombos can be so rewarding, then players will punish with the same thing over and over. Doesn't help if said combo move involves grabbing too, since you can't shield it.

As an aside, did it ever occur to you that maybe that's because we have reached a new generation of players who started with Brawl but weren't very good at it and then after moving to PM started finally understanding the basics? I know I'm like that. I can just tell from seeing myself improve by watching videos of me playing both Brawl and PM that my fundamentals have come a long way since those days. Ick, look at all that rolling I did in Brawl lol.

And now about Brawl. I wasn't referring to ICs when I said chaingrabs. I meant the entire cast lmao. Falco can chain just about every character in the game at least for a while, Wario can chain, Pikachu can chain, Marth can chain, Dedede can chain, Bowser can chain, etc. If we get into stuff like the characters who have a longer release animation then it only gets worse. Wolf can chain Ness (and admittedly only Ness) for example. Brawl's metagame is dominated by this crap and is one of the primary reasons I quit that game. As mentioned above, grabs cannot be blocked and they also beat out many other moves thanks to the super armour they (barring Olimar's) have.

Haha this last part's ****ing rich. People complain about how overly-efficient PM characters are at all the things they can do and yet go and spout about how learning how to beat characters is challenging is a good thing. I hate Ness in PM, but instead of johning for a million years I eventually started trying to put in effort and actually figure out how to beat his obnoxious PK Fire. See this is what I mean when I say it's hard to take PM detractors seriously. Some of the things they say are baseless, some are incorrect and others are just plain hypocritical. Brawl is not a better game because I have to learn how to beat the metagame's most powerful threats. PM is not a better game because I have to learn how to beat its most powerful moves and characters. This works both ways. You either like challenge, or you don't.
----------------------------------------------------
TL;DR - I'll see you in Smash 4.

I might explain what I mean more, its just a lot of time. Even though I agree with Armada it was something I started to think over half a year ago. In melee there's more player interaction on punishment so strings require more intuition and flavor instead of being obvious and easy. Thats especially true for Brawl. And no I do not think the new generation of players suddenly understood basics when they moved to PM, I think the game is easier to succeed in and its supported by their poor results whenever they play melee or brawl.

The difference between PM and Brawl in this case is MK and ICs are legitimately tough and take a lot of skill to use and succeed with. This isnt the case in PM. You are correct that grabs are really good. But no amount of early percent chaingrabs (which are in melee too btw and more often lead to kills) will be as bad as the amount of throw kills or throws that lead into kills in PM.

 

[RascalTheCharizard]

I want to emphasize theres no hate for PM. The game is fun, but in the end the game didnt improve on melee or brawl so requesting a PM for smash 4 isn't worthwhile, which is the point of this thread.

Maybe not from you. However there are people who legitimately "hate" it, either because it isn't as good as Melee or on the other side of the spectrum, because it's a mod and therefore an insult to Sakurai. Both points I can understand, but I have no opinion towards the former (I've only ever played Melee a few times) and I don't fully agree with the latter.

I'm going to outright say that I'm biased, at least in this sense: PM improved on Brawl. That's not something hard to do. I don't care if Smash 4 is slow or fast, offensive or defensive or how long and varied its combos are. As far as I'm concerned, a balanced cast, ability to DI out of all throws and giving the victim control of whether they are released on the ground or in the air out of a grab (not only ruining 100% guaranteed followups, but also adding more mindgames) are the only things I need for a good competitive Smash game. Mostly the first two. Brawl failed on all three fronts. PM changed that.

I might explain what I mean more, its just a lot of time. Even though I agree with Armada it was something I started to think over half a year ago. In melee there's more player interaction on punishment so strings require more intuition and flavor instead of being obvious and easy. Thats especially true for Brawl. And no I do not think the new generation of players suddenly understood basics when they moved to PM, I think the game is easier to succeed in and its supported by their poor results whenever they play melee or brawl.

The difference between PM and Brawl in this case is MK and ICs are legitimately tough and take a lot of skill to use and succeed with. This isnt the case in PM. You are correct that grabs are really good. But no amount of early percent chaingrabs (which are in melee too btw and more often lead to kills) will be as bad as the amount of throw kills or throws that lead into kills in PM.

I'm not saying that once you play PM, your mind suddenly opens up. I'm just saying that people get better with time (and for some, with age as well). If you didn't play any Smash game competitively much and then switched to PM which you played more frequently and showed a greater level of interest and dedication than before, a formerly bad player will likely improve. I've been in the competitive scene for about 2 years now but it wasn't until a few months ago (which was about halfway into my time spent with PM) where I started to feel a genuine desire to get better and also work on ironing out playing habits and the like.

Except that in PM and Melee you can DI every throw meaning that there is always at least a possibility of escape. Brawl's like "you got the muscle memory to keep this going? Good. GG m8."

 

[Senario]

Why would i not buy the only smash with decent netcode? May buy it used depending if it is good or not.

): As a fan of Nintendo's stuff I generally don't want to have to buy things used but honestly if this is another case where Competitive play isn't good then I can't support the game. I'd like to, but honestly if there is no good competitive play I'll just drop smash for all future installments.

It is sad to even think that despite how far the community has come and all the feedback that the game wouldn't change enough to be competitive.

 

[Metallaeus]

): As a fan of Nintendo's stuff I generally don't want to have to buy things used but honestly if this is another case where Competitive play isn't good then I can't support the game. I'd like to, but honestly if there is no good competitive play I'll just drop smash for all future installments.

It is sad to even think that despite how far the community has come and all the feedback that the game wouldn't change enough to be competitive.

That's really your perspective imo. Also, buying the game just to have it available to play with other people is a thing, remember that it still is a fun nintendo party game designed to appeal to a broad audience and not the next street fighter. Smash was made competitive by the players, not necessarily the game, and the fact that Brawl even had a competitive scene for a good while means that Smash 4 definitely has the potential to last in competitive viability for a good while. But hey, if it's not your cup of tea, and you dislike it because it's not the competitive game you want it to be, at least you and other people can still look forward to Project M and more Melee. Meanwhile, everyone else can look forward to Smash 4 and the new changes it brings along. And if people are so unsatisfied with how Smash 4 is, they make a PM-like mod for it, then I guess people can branch out for that too. Although, it is quite sad for people to begin judging a game so harshly already before it's even released. I guess this is where my mind of the casual comes to play, and I play Smash because I have fun with it.

 

[Silent Hell]

Project M must have improved SOMETHING from Brawl if people are liking it so much. And no I don't mean just the pros.

-Balance
-Movesets
-Chaingrabs
-Tripping
-Game speed
-Character control

 

[Renji64]

): As a fan of Nintendo's stuff I generally don't want to have to buy things used but honestly if this is another case where Competitive play isn't good then I can't support the game. I'd like to, but honestly if there is no good competitive play I'll just drop smash for all future installments.

It is sad to even think that despite how far the community has come and all the feedback that the game wouldn't change enough to be competitive.

That is the point i'm at now i love the series and i have loved it since n64 and bought them all but brawl left a bad taste in my mouth and now the series seems to become less competitive each installment. Even before i knew about the scene i just played it with friends and family competitively i always found the mechanics fun until brawl.