Why would you (or would you not) consider Link a top tier character in PM

[Sanity's_Theif]

Getting grabed from jab stuff is only a result of bad spacing and % knowledge. Jabbing them while they are in the air means this combo always works, if you see CC you should just go into multi-jab instead of dtilt. Without CC it's impossible for them to punish your second jab before dtilt looking at framedata, and even with CC you should have enough time to react after your second jab(not to mention you can just CC whatever they do while Dtilting if you are spaced well they won't be able to CC grab you before dtilt comes out). The grab thing is because of grab's having priority over moves(the same thing happened in melee, you just didn't take any damage in melee so people didn't notice as much), them grabbing you on the same frames of your attacks in this string means you either whiffed something or aren't hitting buttons fast enough. Also, dtilt is faster in 2.6 than it ever has been before and is plenty fast comparing it to most other characters dtilts.

You are wrong about reverse bair, it combos at almost all %'s and it extremely hard to DI until 110+%'s. If you don't know what I mean by reverse bair, it's hitting them with your hip so that they are sent in front of you instead of behind of you, the hitbox placement makes it so that you can pretty much always combo off it, them DIing away from link is the easiest DI to combo from reverse bair.

Well it mostly happens against Marth, but there were times where my opponent was over 100%, took the hit and grabbed me anyways, it's ridiculous

My experience has been that when jabbing an airborne character, my opponent falls to the ground fast enough after the first jab to go into shield before I can use D-tilt, in which case I get punished, I find it better to wait and see if they spot-dodge anticipating a grab and punish them for that, and if they don't spot-dodge, go into multistab

My opponents ALWAYS CC my 2nd jab, there's rarely a time where they don't, so I've learned to not use the d-tilt because there's never a case where my opponent doesn't CC the 2nd jab, unless I play someone really bad but I usually play against Kevin M and Zoso

And no not really, I've had plenty of times where a Fox CC's my 2nd jab and has enough time to WD OOS Usmash or just drop the shield and Usmash, or Marth's grab gets to me, or C. Falcon Nairs OOS, really that 2nd jab has enough lag to make it not that safe once your opponent gets the timing down, especially if you try something with slow startup like Dtilt

I'm talking about a Marth eating Link's Fsmash to the face and grabbing right through it, it happens

It's still one of Link's slower moves, side-tilt is the worst in that it's so easy to get punished for using it, I played against a Link and I used Fox(not even that good with him), and every time he used a side-tilt I punished him before he could fully get the move out, or shielded it(easy to do since it's incredibly telegraphed) and then punished

I'm just saying, I play some of the best NE melee players every week, and the only way I go even with them or win is by forgetting about Link's side-tilt and d-tilt in general, they're too easy to get punished for

Bair to reverse Grab always work at low %

Not against Fox or Marth who can shine or Fair/Uair respectively out of it

 

[Hylian]

And I play melee players better than NE's best and dtilt works fine against them >_>. Just sad to hear you are limiting your options because you think they are bad. Also, ftilt shouldn't be used in neutral, it's great for edgeguarding though. I guess you won't believe me until you see me play the people you are playing against though(and I have played MDZ in PM) or you can try playing against me yourself to get some first hand experience . A 10 frame move is not slow btw. Sticking always to things you think are "good" makes you predictable. There is a reason you see players like mango using fox's fair where lower level ones don't understand how it could ever be useful.

 

[Fortress]

I prefer using d-tilt for edgeguarding, and never considered f-tilt for that purpose. Is that because it covers a higher area? I'm always trying to get a meteor out of the d-tilt, but what's your reasoning for using f-tilt? Safer and more chances of a hit?

 

[Hylian]

Ftilt hits lower than dtilt IIRC and I like the angle it sends them. I almost never use dtilt for edgeguarding, I'll either just use nair offstage or ftilt onstage.

 

[Fortress]

waveland > nair is always neat for off-stage finishers. I'll have to mix in more f-tilts with my edgeguarding game. Say, do you ever get just above the ledge off-stage, and AGT a bomb down at the ledge hoping the opponent will just run into it? I do it a lot, for messing with people's recovery approach more than for hitting them.

 

[Sarix]

I find Ftilt has application in neutral imo. It's pinch slow but it has served me as a usable anti-air and ground spacing tool quite a few times.

 

[Fortress]

Really? I end up using a backwards-facing u-tilt a lot to defend myself from projectiles and attacks with long reach. Plus, 'dat anti-air.

 

[The_NZA]

What do you guys think about moonwalk forward tilt in neutral?

 

[Hylian]

I think it's easy to react to and punish.

 

[Fortress]

I can't even moonwalk.

 

[The_NZA]

Hylian, what do you like doing out of moonwalk?

 

[Hylian]

Reverse nair off stage to edgeguard into bair, bair, or falling off a platform with up-b. Not much really mainly just flashy stuff.

 

[xXSciophobiaXx]

Hey Hylian (or anyone else), know of any matches/videos that demonstrate the reverse bair you're talking about?

As I understand it, its using links bair and getting the "reversal" hit box that makes them not travel backwards (opposite way link is facing) and hits them forward?

Anyway, I'll have to practice it. Im just unsure what it looks like and a video may help. Thanks

 

[BigHairyFart]

Jab>Jab>Dtilt is my go-to combo starter, along with DACUS(or whiff it into Dash Attack>Usmash)>Juggle

 

[The_NZA]

Jab>Jab>Dtilt is my go-to combo starter, along with DACUS(or whiff it into Dash Attack>Usmash)>Juggle

I have never seen jab jab dtilt work. In my life. I'm not even sure what it punishes, since someone can just shield through it or shield grab you after jab jab.

 

[BigHairyFart]

Well, when you don't have the luxury of being able to play against a human, you tend to use a lot of stuff that wouldn't work otherwise. The only way I know what works/doesn't work on a human is by posting it here...

 

[The_NZA]

Well, when you don't have the luxury of being able to play against a human, you tend to use a lot of stuff that wouldn't work otherwise. The only way I know what works/doesn't work on a human is by posting it here...

Sorry, I came off as harsh. You and Hylian have both suggested jab jab dtilt, and the link player I know as well as Sanity Thief have both said that doesn't work. So I was inquiring to find out in what situations does it work.

 

[Hylian]

I have never seen jab jab dtilt work. In my life. I'm not even sure what it punishes, since someone can just shield through it or shield grab you after jab jab.

Watch any of my videos I do it all the time >_>.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pum74fN6EUA&t=1m47s

 

[Juushichi]

Link has more than a few mixups out of his jab-jab series. Assuming that people don't disrespect it and try to grab out of your jabs, you have a few things or if they do respect it for too long, you do get jab jab grab.

It's just like anyone that has a jab jab series. o_O

 

[The_NZA]

Watch any of my videos I do it all the time >_>.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pum74fN6EUA&t=1m47s

hmm that does look good. Maybe it has to do with IASA frames and he wasn't inputting the dtilt fast enough.

 

[Blank Mauser]

I find I should have the advantage against Link on-stage with fast, close-range characters, (I say should because a good player doesn't always let that happen) But I honestly have no clue how to edge guard this character in certain matchups. Good DI + Aerial Glide Toss Bomb + Airdodge Zair and an up-B that feels like it at least trades with almost anything not perfectly spaced above him.

 

[Hylian]

Link is really hard to edgeguard. The best thing you can do with most characters is grab the ledge and use the invincibility to hit his up-b or his tether.

 

[The_NZA]

how do you feel about grabbing the edge, threatening the hookshot recovery and forcing an on upb on stage recovery, and punishing the ending lag with an edge hopped aerial?

 

[Nemiak temp]

HOW TO EDGEGUARD LINK: STEP 1
PICK MARTH
STEP 2:
SWING YOUR SWORD
STEP 3:
TAUNT

 

[Nemiak temp]

But really the best way to edgeguard him is to force him into a spot below stage where he wants to tether. Tether = free edge guard as anyone
EDIT:
LOL AT HYLIAN BEING ****ING GARBAGE.

 

[Blank Mauser]

I'm not really familiar with P:M's tether system. When they grab the ledge(While you're also on it) and reel up, can you hit them as they're reeling up or only when they're above the stage? I usually only see the latter.

 

[BigHairyFart]

You can hit them as they reel up, but if they input a jump while tethered, they shoot to the ledge really quickly, making the window to hit them rather small. If you're still holding the edge, they will immediately jump up, otherwise they will just grab the ledge.

 

[Hylian]

But really the best way to edgeguard him is to force him into a spot below stage where he wants to tether. Tether = free edge guard as anyone
EDIT:
LOL AT HYLIAN BEING ****ING GARBAGE.

Uh..what?

 

[Nemiak temp]

Uh..what?

I'm saying you are overrated and It would help the link metagame if everyone stopped sucking your **** on these boards.

 

[Hylian]

I'm saying you are overrated and It would help the link metagame if everyone stopped sucking your **** on these boards.

What region do you live in? Also you are welcome to think that, but it's kind of fruitless if you haven't played me. Also your comment came out of nowhere.

 

[The_NZA]

What region do you live in? Also you are welcome to think that, but it's kind of fruitless if you haven't played me. Also your comment came out of nowhere.

Nemiak's a pretty **** poster...

 

[Nemiak temp]

Nemiak's a pretty **** poster...

MMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM THE SALT
THE BUTTHURT
THE
Yall suck
Also Nemiak backwards spells......

 

[Nemiak temp]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o1eHKf-dMwo
I'm sorry I'm done trolling.



FOR NOW

 

[Fortress]

But really the best way to edgeguard him is to force him into a spot below stage where he wants to tether. Tether = free edge guard as anyone

There's this thing called a tether cancel.

 

[The_NZA]

Kaimen your bad at the internet . Your good at rl though :D.

 

[Rage83]

His versatility. Enough said.

 

[Nemiak temp]

Kaimen your bad at the internet . Your good at rl though :D.

Is that bad at the internet? Or am I just gahlike at the internet? In reference to this though (Sorry guys I'll be serious, I feel like I DO have productive things to say here especially in terms of Link stuff).
" There's this thing called a tether cancel."
That's true but all it does is trick whoever is trying to edgegaurd into doing something. After falling for it once or twice the edge guarder will (hopefully) learn to wait for the Link to do this. This technique offers no invincibility and NO sort of positional advantage. In my experience playing against Link players I just wait til I see a tether then I go deep off stage because aside from cancelling (which I can just wait for) there's not much Link can do aside from eat someones back air or (shine) whatever. I was simply (initially at least b4 drunk troll temp happened) trying to answer someone's question that was what is the best way to edgeguard Link (or something along those lines).
SUMMARY
Up-B = Hardest to edgeguard but not necessarily safest (pretty easy to tell where Link is trying to go).
Tether = Easiest to edgeguard but offers some decent mixup options.

 

[Fortress]

That's true but all it does is trick whoever is trying to edgegaurd into doing something. After falling for it once or twice the edge guarder will (hopefully) learn to wait for the Link to do this.

And if you're not a total ******, then you'll anticipate that your opponent will think that and do something other than a cancel.

 

[Nemiak temp]

LOL Okay who's the asshole trolling now? It's a solid mixup but that's all. Tether leaves Link in a BAD position regardless which makes it objectively easier to edgegaurd. Even if it is faster and cancellable. He's still in a spot that can be shined easily. Back aired by 90% of the cast. Etc etc

 

[Fortress]

Show me any match where that happens consistently to a versed Link player.

Oh wait, you can't.