Why would you (or would you not) consider Link a top tier character in PM

[Winter_Sun]

After playing PM for about four or five months and watching a decent share of competitive videos, I have come to the conclusion that Link would place in the top ~10 characters for PM. *more so around number 7-8*

From his transition from Melee to PM, he has received tons of reasonable buffs to make him a worthy adversary. He also feels very similar to his melee counterpart. Here are some pros, neutrals, and cons to his changes:

Pros:
-His sword spin is absolutely amazing now that it flies out similarly to shine, reflects projectiles, and is very difficult to punish due to its reduced lag.
-He is much quicker with an increased dash speed, and many decreases in lag (especially with Dair).
-His Fair also seems significantly better due to it being a pretty viable kill option.
-His Zair (clawshot attack) is really nice to hit enemies in that awkward area a bit too far from you, plus it has the ability to pop enemies up to start a combo.
-His grab is way less punishable due to reduced lag.
-His bow is literally godlike due to its draw speed and is extremely useful to add some damage on an enemy or gimp them.
-His up-b recovery is pretty ridiculous in terms of horizontal and vertical movement and goes quite a bit further than its melee counterpart.

Neutral:
His new boomerang helps to open up opponents to get some sick combos, though it does have a decreased range. I would consider this as a mostly positive change.

Cons:
The inability to grapple with the hookshot to the bottom of the stage, due to the tether mechanics in PM.

With all these changes, I'm not quite sure why the competitive scene hasn't picked up on 2.6b Link's greatness.

What do you guys think about Link, and why he should or shouldn't be considered as a top tier character in PM.

-Winter_Sun

 

[Rarik]

Up-B is still very easily punished. Hitting someone with up-b at low% is a good way to get punished.
Dair is still a very very bad move to whiff.
His grab is definitely easy to punish if missed.
Bow is pretty good in certain situations, but often it's better to use something else.
A lot of his moves are rather laggy.
Recovery is still rather linear, but certainly much safer than Melee because of the current Tether mechanics, the buffed up-b like you said, and AGT bomb tricks.
Link has trouble with CC at low%
Link still has major trouble with high mobility, high pressure characters like Fox, Falco, Sheik.
Could probably go into more detail about a lot of this, and there's probably a few more things that could be added.

That said, I feel that Link is somewhere in the middle, which isn't too bad of a place to be.

 

[Sanity's_Theif]

Up-B is still very easily punished. Hitting someone with up-b at low% is a good way to get punished.
Dair is still a very very bad move to whiff.
His grab is definitely easy to punish if missed.
Bow is pretty good in certain situations, but often it's better to use something else.
A lot of his moves are rather laggy.
Recovery is still rather linear, but certainly much safer than Melee because of the current Tether mechanics, the buffed up-b like you said, and AGT bomb tricks.
Link has trouble with CC at low%
Link still has major trouble with high mobility, high pressure characters like Fox, Falco, Sheik.
Could probably go into more detail about a lot of this, and there's probably a few more things that could be added.

That said, I feel that Link is somewhere in the middle, which isn't too bad of a place to be.

This exactly

I also feel like his tilts are generally useless, d-tilt for edgeguarding and side-tilt sometimes for edgeguarding although if your opponent is actually good at the game and knows how to recover well, side-tilt is outshined by N-air offstage(same goes for d-tilt)

U-tilt is good for juggling, but again, if your opponent is good at DI, then there are usually better options(if you can pull of 2-3 utilts on an opponent, they're not very good)

 

[Sarix]

I don't find Link's tilts useless imo. I use Ftilt and Utilt for anti-air options. Ftilt and Dtilt also work as spacing options.

The best follow up for Utilt is Bair typically from my practice. Granted it won't work if you try to do it with the opponent in front of you instead of behind or above. I don't have trouble finding uses for his tilts I guess.

Overall though Link is mid tier at best. The majority of the high and top tiers are fast pressure characters which as Rarik stated, Link has a big problem against. If a character has one of those two traits it isn't a major issue for Link but together, they hinder Link's options.

 

[foxygrandpa]

I think link is a pretty solid character, considering his awesome stage control options. But, once an opponent gets momentum going, it is very hard for link to recover. I like link the way he currently is. Not cheap, but not terrible.

 

[Fortress]

I don't find Link's tilts useless imo. I use Ftilt and Utilt for anti-air options. Ftilt and Dtilt also work as spacing options.

Agreed. Link's tilt game is effective, to say the least. His tilts feel natural to follow up with after something like, say, his dashing attack. Dash attack to lift the opponent, up tilt, followed by a shorthopped bair/nair/uair or what have you. His down tilt is great for when he's CCing an opponent's dash attack of jab, and it'll just lift them right up in the air where they're in range of his powerful forward tilt, or combo-linking up tilt. Link's tilt game is cash money, for those who think otherwise.

Overall though Link is mid tier at best. The majority of the high and top tiers are fast pressure characters which as Rarik stated, Link has a big problem against. If a character has one of those two traits it isn't a major issue for Link but together, they hinder Link's options.

And, again, I agree that Link is a middle-of-the-road kind of character. He has options to keep most of the cast away from him, and doesn't have too much trouble putting pressure on, himself. His off-stage game might be overshadowed by his on-stage game, but he's got the recovery options available to him to perform consistent and reliable recovery from some extreme distances and depths.

The only huge flaw I find in Link is when I'm being juggled; he doesn't have a fast-popping nair like Weegee does, and his weight can make it somewhat easy to be juggled; but all of that is fine, it's just part of what makes him the character that he is.

I myself consider Link to be either at the top of the middle tier, or at the bottom of high tier. The dude's got the reach of Marth with some high power behind his swings, and the ability to recovery from distances that most of the cast in the upper tiers cannot. He's just a solid character all around.

 

[Sanity's_Theif]

I don't find Link's tilts useless imo. I use Ftilt and Utilt for anti-air options. Ftilt and Dtilt also work as spacing options.

The best follow up for Utilt is Bair typically from my practice. Granted it won't work if you try to do it with the opponent in front of you instead of behind or above. I don't have trouble finding uses for his tilts I guess.

Overall though Link is mid tier at best. The majority of the high and top tiers are fast pressure characters which as Rarik stated, Link has a big problem against. If a character has one of those two traits it isn't a major issue for Link but together, they hinder Link's options.

Mind you I play a lot of spacies and Falcons, so when I'm playing against them, F-tilt and D-tilt come out way too slow to deal with their speed, if I try to F-tilt I eat a N-air or U-smash from Fox, and with U-tilt, spacies just shine-stall and fall right after the first u-tilt, or in Falco's case, just plows right through it with a D-air

I disagree with B-air after U-tilt, if your opponent DI's away it doesn't lead into any combos, I say go for damage and do a D-air or F-air to get them off the stage

I thought tilts were good at first, until I started consistently playing people as good as MattDotZeb and better

Agreed. Link's tilt game is effective, to say the least. His tilts feel natural to follow up with after something like, say, his dashing attack. Dash attack to lift the opponent, up tilt, followed by a shorthopped bair/nair/uair or what have you. His down tilt is great for when he's CCing an opponent's dash attack of jab, and it'll just lift them right up in the air where they're in range of his powerful forward tilt, or combo-linking up tilt. Link's tilt game is cash money, for those who think otherwise.

And, again, I agree that Link is a middle-of-the-road kind of character. He has options to keep most of the cast away from him, and doesn't have too much trouble putting pressure on, himself. His off-stage game might be overshadowed by his on-stage game, but he's got the recovery options available to him to perform consistent and reliable recovery from some extreme distances and depths.

The only huge flaw I find in Link is when I'm being juggled; he doesn't have a fast-popping nair like Weegee does, and his weight can make it somewhat easy to be juggled; but all of that is fine, it's just part of what makes him the character that he is.

I myself consider Link to be either at the top of the middle tier, or at the bottom of high tier. The dude's got the reach of Marth with some high power behind his swings, and the ability to recovery from distances that most of the cast in the upper tiers cannot. He's just a solid character all around.

You shouldn't be able to pull off an U-tilt after a dash attack, a good opponent would DI away so you'll have to chase after them

Link can't CC very well, and I find D-smash serves the same purpose at low-mid %

And Link's recovery is rather predictable, not saying it's bad but if Link has to use the tether, he can get easily punished

 

[Sarix]

Mind you I play a lot of spacies and Falcons, so when I'm playing against them, F-tilt and D-tilt come out way too slow to deal with their speed, if I try to F-tilt I eat a N-air or U-smash from Fox, and with U-tilt, spacies just shine-stall and fall right after the first u-tilt, or in Falco's case, just plows right through it with a D-air

I disagree with B-air after U-tilt, if your opponent DI's away it doesn't lead into any combos, I say go for damage and do a D-air or F-air to get them off the stage

I thought tilts were good at first, until I started consistently playing people as good as MattDotZeb and better

Michigan has quite a few Falcon players as well so I understand your feelings. Both space animals have normals that plow through the majority of the cast's options.

I've never had trouble connecting Utilt > Bair even when they try to DI away though. I don't really see a point in starting an argument about it though so let's just agree to disagree.

I find Link's tilts rather average at best. No worse than zoning characters from the other fighters I've played.

 

[batistabus]

http://www.twitch.tv/dansalvato/b/472926091
Around 1:04:00 IE starts beating/going even with M2K.

pls nerf

 

[Sanity's_Theif]

Michigan has quite a few Falcon players as well so I understand your feelings. Both space animals have normals that plow through the majority of the cast's options.

I've never had trouble connecting Utilt > Bair even when they try to DI away though. I don't really see a point in starting an argument about it though so let's just agree to disagree.

I find Link's tilts rather average at best. No worse than zoning characters from the other fighters I've played.

Well I mean you can follow Utilt with Bair, I was just thinking they're DIing the same way you're facing, so you'd have to run and jump backwards, it's possible but I just go for damage with a Dair or Fair

 

[Shade_]

I feel like Link is definitely a viable character, and a fun one. But I don't feel like he will be winning any tournaments sometime soon. I feel like while he isn't bad, he definitely isn't the best, and in a pinch when money is on the line, I'd probably use one of the more polarizing characters than Link.

Now...if he could Short Hop Fast Fall Bow (SHFFB?)...that would be another story- lol
Like Seriously, I feel like in just about every situation except edge guarding someone "really" far away, I should use a different projectile besides bow. It would be nice if he could at least cancel his bow animation when he touches the ground. I feel like then, even with his "lack luster" recovery he could compete with the big hitters much more safely.

 

[Mr.Pickle]

Uhhh lack luster recovery?

 

[Fortress]

I was about to say that Link can recover from nearly the bottom corners of Final Destination. He can come back from places that only a couple of other members of the cast can.

 

[Shade_]

Nearly the bottom corners of FD? If my version of Project M is up to date I'm fairly certain the vertical momentum isn't nearly enough to get back up from under the bottom of FD. And that's not even in the corner where the magnifying glasses get you. That's just directly under the ledge at the bottom of the stage object.

Don't get me wrong, it's not a bad recovery. It's just not an amazing one either. And as said above, it's fairly linear. If you knock him to the side, he'll probably get back. But if he get's spiked or meteored at medium percents, he will often be too far down to make it back.

 

[Fortress]

It was a bit blown out of proportion, but Link can recover from some obscene distances. I'd play Link in a tournament if I ever get to one. Hell, that's why I'm putting so much time into increasing my skill level as him. It's all I want, to make some waves in the Link tourney scene.

 

[Strong Badam]

I don't think Link's top tier because he handles pressure poorly and he doesn't have the speed to avoid pressure. Link is probably around middle of the cast I'd say in 2.6. He's a good character in his own right but, some characters will end up better than others.

 

[Fortress]

No denying that. Link's got a predictable recovery that requires some minor tech knowledge, a sub-par and tricky Wavedash, some slow attacks, and limited options to respond up close. He's mid-tier, maybe high mid if I'm being generous, and I wouldn't have him any other way. There's a kind of satisfaction I get when I kick the daylights out of Cap. Falcon with Link.

 

[Shade_]

Fair enough-
Now that I think of it, he can bomb jump too can't he. Though I've never tried it in PM, but I would imagine it should be easier in this game. If that's true then his recovery game cover's all areas.

My point though is I feel like Link is a good character. At the same time, I feel like there is room for improvement without making him too good... So I don't see any reason not to push him a bit farther. Does that make any sense? lol

 

[Fortress]

Eh, I'm fine with him being where he is. Maybe make D-air and U-air end a bit faster, but I guess their slowness compensates for how strong of kill moves they are. I wouldn't mind D-air not making me bounce off of people's shields, and pogo-stick around so much. It's sooooooooooooooo unsafe on shields that I can't think about it without crying a little.

And, yeah, Link's got pleeeenty of recovery options. You've got the venerable Bomb Jump, the AGT+hookshot recovery (glide toss upwards, throw a bomb in whatever direction you see fit, air dodge towards the edge, clawshot), tether cancelling (not a method of recovery in itself, but enhances recovering through tether), and all that good stuff.

 

[Jolteon]

Link's recovery is incredible.

 

[Lethalx]

#1 A lot of link players suck #2 Well there's not a lot of link mains.

 

[Fortress]

I'm not a lot of Link players.

 

[Sarix]

It's not realistic to expect a lot of blooming Link players with his meta game still in a fetal stage. Being a technical and rather unforgiving character with a fairly high learning curve also means it will take time for him to fully develop compared to characters who are more straight forward and/or mostly the same as their Melee incarnation. Zoning characters have never been the most popular anyway especially since low level players like instant results which Link doesn't really provide.

 

[Fortress]

Which is why it's always super exciting to finally figure stuff out with him. Granted, I play Mario as my secondary, and Weegee on backup, and those two are pretty straightforward.

 

[Lethalx]

I'm not a lot of Link players.

I never said any names, so why are you disagreeing?

It's not realistic to expect a lot of blooming Link players with his meta game still in a fetal stage. Being a technical and rather unforgiving character with a fairly high learning curve also means it will take time for him to fully develop compared to characters who are more straight forward and/or mostly the same as their Melee incarnation. Zoning characters have never been the most popular anyway especially since low level players like instant results which Link doesn't really provide.

If you dont know how to play with link by now that's sad. His style have been here since melee. That's 12 years of knowing him in and out. Then you have brawl, been here since 08 that's 5 years knowing everything
about him. Soo basically that's 17 years of knowledge of link(because Pm link is melee and brawl link put together) and he's Light years better than his previously appearances in smash.Heck there's stupid amount of videos on youtube about his style and Metagame and ATS for melee/brawl.

Its just that in both ssbm, and ssbb there was an limited amount of link players, because like you said link isn't a character you can just pick up like Shiek and the only link players known in the smash were (for ssbm): Deva,The Germ,Skler,Hdl,Aniki,J666
For brawl: Deva, Legan, Izaw, Reesepieces,ArkiveZero and thats basically it. That's only 11 players total for 17 years and both games combined lol

 

[Fortress]

I never said any names, so why are you disagreeing?

Because I'm brash and cocky.

 

[J.Shadows]

If any good Link player decides to get good at pm you are all fu©ked

 

[foxygrandpa]

Links only real flaw is that he has trouble handling pressure. Otherwise, he excels in every other aspect, especially with juggling heavyweights and fast fallers.

 

[Fortress]

If any good Link player decides to get good at pm you are all fu©ked

>implying there are more than ten Links out there
>implying there aren't good Links
>implying no good Links play P:M
>implying nobody good plays P:M
>implying implications

 

[J.Shadows]

If myself or Germ

 

[Fortress]

Never heard of you.

 

[NaijaboyIrin]

Lol this dude is J666.
How could you not have heard of him? He is one of the best Melee Links imo.

 

[Fortress]

I know lol. It sounded a lot better in my head, but I was poking fun at him referring to himself as, well, "myself". I was going to say something like 'I've never heard of the handle 'Myself''. It sounded better in my head, trust me.

 

[Hylian]

This exactly

I also feel like his tilts are generally useless, d-tilt for edgeguarding and side-tilt sometimes for edgeguarding although if your opponent is actually good at the game and knows how to recover well, side-tilt is outshined by N-air offstage(same goes for d-tilt)

U-tilt is good for juggling, but again, if your opponent is good at DI, then there are usually better options(if you can pull of 2-3 utilts on an opponent, they're not very good)

Pro-tip: Jabx2 -> dtilt is your best friend against falcon/spacies, you can get some amazing combos from that(such as things like jabx2 -> dtilt -> reverse bair -> (combo forks here depending on %) -> jab/fair/nair/dair/etc based on %.

 

[Fortress]

Pro-tip: Jabx2 -> dtilt is your best friend against falcon/spacies, you can get some amazing combos from that(such as things like jabx2 -> dtilt -> reverse bair -> (combo forks here depending on %) -> jab/fair/nair/dair/etc based on %.

'Dat shield poke, mang. Seriously, spacies are vulnerable to some d-tilt. And u-tilt. U-tilt is one of my best friends as Link.

 

[J.Shadows]

Lol I entered pm at Apex we'll see how that goes I'm probably not gonna practice at all so maybe not that good.

 

[Sanity's_Theif]

Pro-tip: Jabx2 -> dtilt is your best friend against falcon/spacies, you can get some amazing combos from that(such as things like jabx2 -> dtilt -> reverse bair -> (combo forks here depending on %) -> jab/fair/nair/dair/etc based on %.

Oh no I know that, I just would use it more as a mix-up on the options he had from Jabx2

Reason for that being that if you're playing against someone who knows the timing of Link's jabs, they can time a grab right after Link's 2nd jab and the grab will go through anything Link does and Link will get grabbed, even the multistab gets plowed through by a grab! And by that I mean Link's hit does damage but he ends up getting grabbed regardless

So I don't use d-tilt as much anymore because it doesn't come out so fast and it's easy to get grabbed out of shield, but it's good as a mix-up and has great reward for pulling it off

I wouldn't reverse a Bair as a follow-up though, if you're opponent DI's away(like the people I play ALWAYS do), then you can't follow-up with anything, I just go for a Fair or Dair at that point, or Uair on spacies if they're at a low % to follow up with the boomerang into something else

 

[Lethalx]

I wouldn't reverse a Bair as a follow-up though, if you're opponent DI's away(like the people I play ALWAYS do), then you can't follow-up with anything, I just go for a Fair or Dair at that point, or Uair on spacies if they're at a low % to follow up with the boomerang into something else

Bair to reverse Grab always work at low %

 

[Hylian]

Oh no I know that, I just would use it more as a mix-up on the options he had from Jabx2

Reason for that being that if you're playing against someone who knows the timing of Link's jabs, they can time a grab right after Link's 2nd jab and the grab will go through anything Link does and Link will get grabbed, even the multistab gets plowed through by a grab! And by that I mean Link's hit does damage but he ends up getting grabbed regardless

So I don't use d-tilt as much anymore because it doesn't come out so fast and it's easy to get grabbed out of shield, but it's good as a mix-up and has great reward for pulling it off

I wouldn't reverse a Bair as a follow-up though, if you're opponent DI's away(like the people I play ALWAYS do), then you can't follow-up with anything, I just go for a Fair or Dair at that point, or Uair on spacies if they're at a low % to follow up with the boomerang into something else

Getting grabed from jab stuff is only a result of bad spacing and % knowledge. Jabbing them while they are in the air means this combo always works, if you see CC you should just go into multi-jab instead of dtilt. Without CC it's impossible for them to punish your second jab before dtilt looking at framedata, and even with CC you should have enough time to react after your second jab(not to mention you can just CC whatever they do while Dtilting if you are spaced well they won't be able to CC grab you before dtilt comes out). The grab thing is because of grab's having priority over moves(the same thing happened in melee, you just didn't take any damage in melee so people didn't notice as much), them grabbing you on the same frames of your attacks in this string means you either whiffed something or aren't hitting buttons fast enough. Also, dtilt is faster in 2.6 than it ever has been before and is plenty fast comparing it to most other characters dtilts.

You are wrong about reverse bair, it combos at almost all %'s and it extremely hard to DI until 110+%'s. If you don't know what I mean by reverse bair, it's hitting them with your hip so that they are sent in front of you instead of behind of you, the hitbox placement makes it so that you can pretty much always combo off it, them DIing away from link is the easiest DI to combo from reverse bair.

 

[foxygrandpa]

has anyone noticed his dash attack and up tilt are insanely difficult to tech? Especially with spacies