Why the stress on creating a competitive scene for Brawl?

[RetroRhythm]

I believe that is a fair thing to ask. Why worry yourselves over it? What do you have to gain from it? Melee was still having things being discovered for it even before Brawl came out, and people have just sort of...stopped... in a sense.

Brawl has been way too thoroughly made so that exploits are nigh impossible. I am sure there may be a handful to find as the game progresses on, but what boggles my mind is why are people so vehemently carrying on this debate? You can't possibly win this thing, so why fight it? Why even BOTHER trying to create what we had with Melee for Brawl? It is never going to work because the engines are so vastly different and creating a metagame that competitives can play on to distinguish themselves has been neutered with the Brawl's havok engine.

We can have two scenes. Melee for the competitives and Brawl for the casuals. They CAN coexist. The scene for Brawl basically being the inevitable tournaments to match skill with skill for those guys, but for our guys, why not stick to our roots and continue crafting Melee's metagame?

Just a thought.

 

[Ichida]

I believe that is a fair thing to ask. Why worry yourselves over it? What do you have to gain from it?

Self-validation is usually the underlying purpose behind competition.

We can have two scenes. Melee for the competitives and Brawl for the casuals. They CAN coexist.

You'd think so, wouldn't you? Too bad a good number of the actively-posting competitives on SmashBoards are inadaptable, elitist pricks.

 

[Galaxy]

Too bad a good number of the actively-posting competitives on SmashBoards are inadaptable, elitist pricks.

That goes both ways, not just one.

 

[LouisLeGros]

Because it is really hard to override the large boost of a new game with tons of hype. It will be really hard to keep the competitive community with melee, especially when EVO & MLG will be supporting Brawl.

 

[hippochinfat!!]

Because Brawl is the newest and the best.

 

[Namenlos]

It may sound stupid but it may be nice to play at high levels in tournaments with new characters intead of the same ones for 7 years

 

[RetroRhythm]

Because it is really hard to override the large boost of a new game with tons of hype. It will be really hard to keep the competitive community with melee, especially when EVO & MLG will be supporting Brawl.

You bring up a great point.

However, we can't just roll over and die. Melee is still in it's prime. We are nowhere near complete with discovering things for it. Call me crazy, but I don't want my 6 years of competitive Smash to be for naught y'know?

We have to think of a way to juggle them. As you said, the biggest issue is keeping people interested in Melee, especially considering the accessibility Brawl offers with it's "everybody is a winner" vibe.

 

[The_Smash_Champ]

I believe that is a fair thing to ask. Why worry yourselves over it? What do you have to gain from it? Melee was still having things being discovered for it even before Brawl came out, and people have just sort of...stopped... in a sense.

Brawl has been way too thoroughly made so that exploits are nigh impossible. I am sure there may be a handful to find as the game progresses on, but what boggles my mind is why are people so vehemently carrying on this debate? You can't possibly win this thing, so why fight it? Why even BOTHER trying to create what we had with Melee for Brawl? It is never going to work because the engines are so vastly different and creating a metagame that competitives can play on to distinguish themselves has been neutered with the Brawl's havok engine.

We can have two scenes. Melee for the competitives and Brawl for the casuals. They CAN coexist. The scene for Brawl basically being the inevitable tournaments to match skill with skill for those guys, but for our guys, why not stick to our roots and continue crafting Melee's metagame?

Just a thought.

i Agree, i would love to go to a melee tournament. We should split this Forums, we should have a melee tournamnet(for the highly skilled) place and a brawl tournament place(for noobs who like to play to have "fun".

 

[everlasting yayuhzz]

Maybe because we want to play a new game competitively? Dillweed, it's not that hard to grasp. We like to play competitively and Brawl is the new game on the block.

 

[Namenlos]

i Agree, i would love to go to a melee tournament. We should split this Forums, we should have a melee tournamnet(for the highly skilled) place and a brawl tournament place(for noobs who like to play to have "fun".

Now you're just being stupid.

 

[Superstarmario]

Why make a competitive scene?

Because people like to play competitvely. No brainer. We can coexist with both parties playing the same game. We did with Melee. Causal asshatting, and Tourney Elitism (myth) just needs to stop in general.

Again, why do you care anyway?

 

[RetroRhythm]

i Agree, i would love to go to a melee tournament. We should split this Forums, we should have a melee tournamnet(for the highly skilled) place and a brawl tournament place(for noobs who like to play to have "fun".

Please don't namecall. That is how you spark 56 pages of people bickering for no reason.

We already have a split board for both ironically. The issue is people are too busy hanging out here and arguing instead of playing Melee and picking up where we left off.

 

[Jack Kieser]

Everyone here is stressing because... this is a mainly competitive website. What do you expect?! We're going to worry about it because that's what we love. Common sense, people. It helps.

 

[pockyD]

because on a casual level, there's not much to discuss on a forum

you play the game? you have fun? that's the extent of casual play, and most of us already do that

 

[RetroRhythm]

Maybe because we want to play a new game competitively? Dillweed, it's not that hard to grasp. We like to play competitively and Brawl is the new game on the block.

Watch your mouth. If you wanted to play the new game so bad then go do it. Quit arguing about it.

 

[ROOOOY!]

i Agree, i would love to go to a melee tournament. We should split this Forums, we should have a melee tournamnet(for the highly skilled) place and a brawl tournament place(for noobs who like to play to have "fun".

HOORAY FOR GENERALISING THAT ONLY N00BS PLAY BRAWL!

 

[Superstarmario]

Watch your mouth. If you wanted to play the new game so bad then go do it. Quit arguing about it.

It takes two to tango.

Recognize that this forum is a place where tourneys and the competitve scene are organized. When there is ever a new tactic, playstyle, or any type of discussion, expect it to be brought here first.

Since we discuss the game, it's natural for complaints to be found. They're not unfounded eithier.

 

[RetroRhythm]

because on a casual level, there's not much to discuss on a forum

you play the game? you have fun? that's the extent of casual play, and most of us already do that

There really doesen't have to be in all honesty. As a predominately competitive forum board, priority should come first to where the competitive nature is truly thriving, which is Melee.

It is pointless to hold the debate because only time will tell for Brawl, and even then, the new engine virtually guarentees that no large amount of exploits will be found. Brawl's engine will be shallow in that aspect, and to assume that it can match Melee's competitive prowess is....unfathomable.

My point is why hold the debate when the answer is two scenes? One for the serious, and the other for the not so serious?

 

[Doc Chronic]

Please don't namecall. That is how you spark 56 pages of people bickering for no reason.

We already have a split board for both ironically. The issue is people are too busy hanging out here and arguing instead of playing Melee and picking up where we left off.

i know how you feel, sometimes i feel as though the community is just stuck in this "limbo" of sorts where we are stuck between melee and brawl, without really moving onto brawl yet while still being stuck on melee, its just unpleasant for everyone on the boards.

 

[refugee]

Or, actually give brawl a year before completly giving up on it. Brawl hasnt even been out in the USA for a month and people have already started to go back to meele. :|

 

[Superstarmario]

My point is why hold the debate when the answer is two scenes? One for the serious, and the other for the not so serious?

That's been around since the dawn of fighters, or anything competitve.

NBA: For professionals.
Back Alley court: For casual players.

I hope you're not suggesting that Tourney people shouldn't have a toruney scene for Brawl at all, because it has a worse competitve playstyle than Melee. Because THAT is flame-baiting.

 

[RetroRhythm]

Don't put words in my mouth. I never even said that. I said two scenes and I MEANT two scenes. There is no gray area.

 

[Superstarmario]

Don't put words in my mouth. I never even said that. I said two scenes and I MEANT two scenes. There is no gray area.

Then define "scene". The Tourney Scene pretty much revolves around traveling around comepteting and developing your game. So what kinda scene is the casual scene? Brawl, your friends, a bag of chips, and items?

Could you clarify what you're trying suggest so I can avoid putting words in your mouth?

And if I recall you said

Melee for the competitives and Brawl for the casuals.

Not even out of context.

Just what DO you mean then?

 

[RetroRhythm]

The biggest thing that seperates casuals and competitives are experience. The two groups play in an entirely different way. I am not suggesting they all go and play with items on, and competitives don't, I am saying the rules are far less strict for one side, as well as personal skill.

A tourney of melee pros for instance would excessively use techs to better their game and put them on a level higher than the normal player. Casuals would not rely on that, and would instead play with the bare metagame, and probably would use techs here and there.

It is two ways of playing the game, two "scenes." Traveling can be done for both scenes, regardless of stereotype, because people will go the extra mile to play with those who share their enjoyment.

Since Brawl is more geared towards the casual player, they can play the game as if they were playing Melee. It is untouched by technical prowess. Melee is still geared toward the more competitive heavy seeing as how it has a metagame completely devoted to that.

 

[HenryMartinez]

Since Brawl is more geared towards the casual player, they can play the game as if they were playing Melee. It is untouched by technical prowess. Melee is still geared toward the more competitive heavy seeing as how it has a metagame completely devoted to that.

We _want_ to play Brawl competitively. We _want_ to take this game, beat it up, hang it upside down and take all the change. Sure, the engine is changed(or lacking for others), but this is what we strive for in Smash, on a whole, to play a game based on being better than the other person. Sure, we have our fun with chips n' dip at our friends, but when it comes to playing for keeps, as Terry Bogard would say, "GET SERIOUS!"

Competiveness is a mindset. We want to succeed in what we like and do best, so that's why we want to play Brawl competitively.

You know, stating that last thing makes me realize... everything else I wrote is irrelevant. Oh well. xD

 

[Shade_666]

If you want to play brawl competitively then do it but don't ***** about how the game isn't melee and doesnt have nearly as many Advanced Techs(if any). Its not the same game besides I doubt that the competitive brawl scene will be around for long. My impression is that most Melee Vets hate Brawl for its new funky engine and lack of L-Canceling and lack of combos. But it doesnt matter because brawl wasnt meant to be played competitively, nor was melee, it was exploits that made anyone improvable. Brawl was very well made and lacks these exploits.

It just isnt the same game so if you want to be competative and actually continue getting better stick with melee, there is no limit to how good you could be. In Brawl I feel there is a ceiling, once people start master their characters it will really just come down to which charater has the least lag on there moves.

 

[Ogre_Deity_Link]

Because competitive players apparently can make a better game than a game designer can.


Ugh.

I'm going to have fun with Brawl. But it sucks that it now has this stigma of a "kiddy game" attached to it.

If there were super split second window timing complex techs all over the place that took years to master, would Brawl be great?

Please, for the sake of my faith in humanity, DON'T ANSWER THAT!!!

 

[HenryMartinez]

If you want to play brawl competitively then do it but don't ***** about how the game isn't melee and doesnt have nearly as many Advanced Techs(if any). Its not the same game besides I doubt that the competitive brawl scene will be around for long. My impression is that most Melee Vets hate Brawl for its new funky engine and lack of L-Canceling and lack of combos. But it doesnt matter because brawl wasnt meant to be played competitively, nor was melee, it was exploits that made anyone improvable. Brawl was very well made and lacks these exploits.

It just isnt the same game so if you want to be competative and actually continue getting better stick with melee, there is no limit to how good you could be. In Brawl I feel there is a ceiling, once people start master their characters it will really just come down to which charater has the least lag on there moves.

We don't hate the game, it's just we expected more, and it was foolish of us, especially if the creator of Kirby supervised it. I mean, look it from out perspective, you're fresh out of Melee, to come to Brawl? I'm not saying it's not great, I love the game, but you couldn't help but feel disappointed, but we adapt and adjust.

Actually, that last thing you said could apply to any fighting game, and I think it's wrong. No matter how much theory you know, all the hitstun and move lag information in the world couldn't save you in a match if you don't know how to fully exploit it. Mindgames will still rule, and there seems to be more weight in mindgames since the game is so defensive now.

Because competitive players apparently can make a better game than a game designer can.


Ugh.

I'm going to have fun with Brawl. But it sucks that it now has this stigma of a "kiddy game" attached to it.

If there were super split second window timing complex techs all over the place that took years to master, would Brawl be great?

Please, for the sake of my faith in humanity, DON'T ANSWER THAT!!!

You should read Sakurai's interviews. He himself said that he was impressed that gamers took games to other levels they didn't even imagine. I guess you can argue that competitive gameplay enhances the gameplay to a much greater depth than what it was originally catered for. Again, it's a matter of preference, how you want to play the game, for fun vs. competitiveness.

If you played Melee, as I said before, coming from Melee competitively and then playing Brawl, you can't help but be a tad bit disappointed. Techs are simply tools to enhance gameplay, and it just so happened that Melee techs sped up the game to such a degree of ridiculouslness that it was pretty awesome, people digged that speed and the mindgames you could do with techs.

 

[Superstarmario]

The biggest thing that seperates casuals and competitives are experience. The two groups play in an entirely different way. I am not suggesting they all go and play with items on, and competitives don't, I am saying the rules are far less strict for one side, as well as personal skill.

No, no it isn't. Experince separates pros from scrubs. Yes there is a difference. What makes a casual player and a competitve player different is dedication. Competitives seek opponents for improving game and....comeptition. Causals are just that. Casual. They won't travel out of state just to play someone they've never played before. They'd rather play with closeby friends or computers.

That's precisely why there will never be a "casual scene". It's close to an oxymoron. Competition and money drives comeptitive players to travel to MLG to play. Brawl or not, it'll be a cold day in hell when causals on this board manage to gather 30-40 people they don't know for a friendly fun game of Smash.

If you don't agree, then by all means start your casual scene. I encourage it. It seems casuals do more *****ing about the tourney scene and what better ways to play than actually doing something with their ideas of "how smash should be played".


The rest of my rebuttal to your posts, and other posts below you:

Competive, Pro, Toruney =/= Advanced Techs

I don't know where you got that bull**** from, but it's not true.

 

[GreatClayMonkey]

It all started when people found out wavedashing and L canceling had been removed. They instantly jumped to brawl is no longer competitive because sakurai kept saying he wanted more new players. Then when brawl came out people flipped **** because it didn't 26,000 AT on the first day. People went on tirades that melee was better cause brawls not competitive and then we get this the current boards state.

 

[Superstarmario]

Aaaaand back to square one we go.

 

[DRaGZ]

The problem is if that Brawl fails competitively now, it, as the newest entry in the Smash Bros. series, will severely stain Smash Bros. as a whole, including Melee. Mark my words, if Brawl fails, Melee will suffer greatly.

 

[shatoga]

i Agree, i would love to go to a melee tournament. We should split this Forums, we should have a melee tournamnet(for the highly skilled) place and a brawl tournament place(for noobs who like to play to have "fun".

I hate hows people like you go around and generalize the whole brawl playing population and call us noobs. You know what, i like playing brawl.It's fun, and yes i play it for that factor. But it can also be competitive, and i don't consider myself bad at ssb by any means. And i don't think the op was implying what you said at all.

And we DO have split forums for melee and brawl btw.