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A lot of smash4 players desperately want the approval of melee players for some reason and its really bothersome. Anytime I talk to someone who plays Smash4, they begin explaining how good it is compared to melee. Stop caring about comparing the two and you'll stop hearing people who disagree with u.
Edit: and totally agree that Nintendo finally giving melee attention only so they can sell more of their new game is a real piss off too.
Here's my 2 cents. Everyone who's competitive at a fighting game is inherently competitive. Putting all those people together, you're gonna get a boat load of arguments and mean people. Melee fans treat smash 4 fans, the way other fighting game fans treat Melee fans. Everyone wants to feel like they're better than someone or some group. Hopefully Smash4 can start utilizing custom moves and widen the gap between melee and smash4 and people can stop comparing them. But that's a hoop dream. Personally i love both games, and I liked brawl and 64 too. If i hated one enough i wouldn't compare it to melee, i would just go back and play some melee.
I can't quite put my finger on it, but I just don't like smash 4. N64 was awesome (still is, play it from time to time) Melee is the best, Brawl was a huge disappointment when expecting melee 2, and Smash 4 just kept going in the same direction as brawl.
It's slower, less technical (not necessarily a bad thing sometimes) and I feel restricted when playing it, something I never experienced with ;64 or melee
I actually strongly agree with this statement. More characters should have the offensive options diddy has, and then you would have much less of a "whoever approaches first usually loses" feel to things. I think the risk/reward of approaching in Smash 4 is way out of whack.
Better Green Day song for someone who is content playing all Smash games:
Honestly, I didn't like anything GD put out after 21st Century Breakdown. Waiting for the next Dookie or American Idiot to come out, but they broke the tradition of releasing an album that tops the charts every 10 years.
Anyways, I'm fine with playing all of the Smash games casually (although I don't really have as much fun with Brawl or Sm4sh), but I'm not fine with comparing competitive Sm4sh and Melee as they are completely different games. Honestly, I don't like Sm4sh competitively, but it's a fun game to play casually with your friends (unless they also play competitive Melee; they you and the friend will just get in a johns battle about how they could have or could not have avoided/punished that move in Melee).
I hate S4 because I can't move in it.
I wish I could say it was more, but it's literally only the lack of proper dash dancing that keeps me away from the game. It forces you into jank pivots and I hate it. It makes it feel slow, sticky, and unresponsive.
If S4 had dash dancing, I would play and love it. It doesn't therefor it's a chore for me to play. I'll stick to melee and PM.
Every smash game can cater to competitive players, because each game is a different engine with a different playstyle with the same objective. Whether it does to you or not is, you guessed it, a personal decision.
Saying that "x game caters to y" is completely stupid. I want to stress that I am not calling you stupid. I am merely calling this line of reasoning - the same one that I have seen several times on these forums over the years - stupid, and your post was the most recent iteration of it.
Anyway, I really am in the minority. I'm a free thinker with Smash, not a conformist sheep like most people in the Melee, PM, Smash 4, even 64 and Brawl sides.
I want Smash to have more depth, but I want them to implement it in such a way that the learning curve is smooth so that casuals can transition to and from competitive play.
It's not an issue of "amount of depth" like both Sakurai and competitives think. It's the curve.
One step. ONE STEP is to turn one of the buttons into a wavedash-like "sliding dash" command, which would immediately make all the other "sliding" techniques redundant (because, let's face it, the developers aren't going to find and edit out every single one).
And now people are going to say "derp if you make one AT easy, you have to make the rest easy". And I'm going to say "you're just thinking in black and white and one step is good enough".
I hate S4 because I can't move in it.
I wish I could say it was more, but it's literally only the lack of proper dash dancing that keeps me away from the game. It forces you into jank pivots and I hate it. It makes it feel slow, sticky, and unresponsive.
If S4 had dash dancing, I would play and love it. It doesn't therefor it's a chore for me to play. I'll stick to melee and PM.
I definitely agree with this. It takes some getting used to, but you do feel more locked down in Smash4. I like many many things that they did with Smash4, but what they really messed up on is how characters move in the game. It feels rather slippery and not only that, when you touch the ground you are glued to it for a while, sometimes due to high landing lag of some moves.
Honestly, the speed of the game is good, projectiles are better (probably due to lack of movement options, though landing lag on some projectiles make it useless in mid range), many characters feel different, ground game is improved, this game's not that bad. Give me some better ways to get around my opponents, SLIGHTLY less landing lag and maybe more hitstun and I'd say the game could generate some high octane fights even without advanced techniques while still being it's own game (not that it already doesn't, but it depends on the matchup really).
But that's it, it's its own game. We just need to leave each other alone so to speak. Not everyone has the time or drive to play both and not everyone wants to play the other. Unless I know what I'm talking about, I won't talk about your game and vice versa. I'd refrain from saying something sucks or is dumb. I'd probably say that I don't prefer that this does that and it's all opinion anyway.
People just need to be a little nicer when expressing themselves I think. Just put it in a way that you think wont piss people off.
As someone who plays all the games, I can contribute some input.
For a few, the answer to this is literally "It's not Melee." These are also the people who hate PM because it's not Melee [and might even hate a potential Melee HD, since it's not a Gamecube disk.]
For others, the problem is offensive option strength. Melee is a game where offensive play is significantly more rewarded than any other Smash entry.
This is what leads people to erroneously label it "more competitive" - competitive is qualitative - you can't quantify a qualitative word - I can hand someone two pieces of cloth that are 1nm apart in refracted light and ask which is "more green" - the question doesn't make sense - similarly, a game can have stronger offensive or defensive option strength, but that doesn't make it more or less competitive, only skews it to more or less reward for defensive play - people then make the leap and term offensive play "better" for competition, but this is arbitrary as well - "fun to watch" isn't a standard for competition, and neither is "fast-paced" [nevermind that fast-paced is wholly arbitrary] or chess would not be a good competition at all. It's simply that so many people agree those things are valuable and so many seek competitions over things that provide those qualities, which is why many prefer Melee over Brawl/Smash4/64.
That aerials are mostly unsafe on shield and many are somewhat laggy leads to less reward and more risk for offensive play, so others do not like it.
The most frequently cited claim is movement, namely, that things aren't "smooth" enough, either visually or from a feel perspective [ignoring how herky-jerky wavedashing actually looks if you slow down, as compared to just running or jumping]. People are accustomed to DDing, running into a crouch, (for Brawl) DACUS, wavedashing, etc., and with those things removed, they feel a loss of control. Some also feel that the fairly low amount of momentum conserved when transitioning from a dash to a jump is clunky as well.
Personally? I feel I have a very high degree of control over my character in Smash 4. Sure, I can't exactly wavedash from the ledge or waveland, but neither can my opponent. I feel the game actually pushes me to make more out of the movement options and jump heights I have, instead of simply shoving my momentum wherever I need it to go at a moment's notice. And to be totally honest, I don't think one gives up a very large degree of control either, since shieldstops are somewhat slow, but not really any slower than wavedashing out of a run, and one can perfect pivot back and forth or DD [DDing and perfect pivoting back and forth are really hard though - it's like every single character is Sheik]. RARing out a of a dash actually gives one more control than one had in Melee for approaching from a far with aerials, at least at a marginal speed increase in both execution and momentum [Falco can RAR bair in Smash 4 from halfway across FD, but in Melee, he can run, shine, turnaround, and bair, and others have to do things like needle-cancel (Sheik) or just crouch, pivot, and jump, and the run momentum in Smash 4 is higher than standing jumping in Melee)].
So while I can understand why people don't like giving up numerous options for movement and reducing lag that are present in Melee, I think it is very possible to adapt to what Smash 4 has to still have very smooth gameplay [especially with pivot ftilting] - as an example, Zero, who plays PM very competently and has done well in Melee, was the Smash 4 champion at Apex 2015. If people were willing to work with what Smash 4 offers [both what it doesn't have due to changes from Melee and what it adds], I think a fair number of people could find Smash 4 more enjoyable. However, many would prefer to not alter how they like to play when they could just play Melee/PM, and several of those people also either disdain those who do or wish the game was catered to them, so they speak down on it because they don't like it. I personally think this is a downright pathetic attitude to have (nothing more than an "I don't play Smash 4 because I prefer other smash games" should be sufficient), but people will speak their minds regardless.
Anyway, I really am in the minority. I'm a free thinker with Smash, not a conformist sheep like most people in the Melee, PM, Smash 4, even 64 and Brawl sides.
One step. ONE STEP is to turn one of the buttons into a wavedash-like "sliding dash" command, which would immediately make all the other "sliding" techniques redundant (because, let's face it, the developers aren't going to find and edit out every single one).
And now people are going to say "derp if you make one AT easy, you have to make the rest easy". And I'm going to say "you're just thinking in black and white and one step is good enough".
Give me one possible button input that would easily suit that purpose (the one-button WD) without messing with something else. I haven't been able to find any button that would be convenient (with finger placement concidered) enough to be useful for the single-press WD and wouldn't interfere with the controls as they already are.
Give me one possible button input that would easily suit that purpose (the one-button WD) without messing with something else. I haven't been able to find any button that would be convenient (with finger placement concidered) enough to be useful for the single-press WD and wouldn't interfere with the controls as they already are.
Two shield buttons is technically redundant. Not workable on 3DS, but on Gamecube Controller, replace L or R with an "dash" button that induces wavedashing [it could be an airdash or air and ground]. If it were airdash only, it would be basically allowing people to choose between Melee or Brawl airdodge. If it were a dash in general, it would be the one button wavedash. Yes this slightly hurts people who regularly use both triggers for shielding, airdodging, and teching, but I think people would be willing to work around it [since you can map either button to either trigger].
Another option is Brawl Minus Fox airdodge - holding no directions while airdoding [just on startup of airdodge] causes a regular airdodge, while holding a direction on the startup of an airdodge induces a Melee-style airdodge [this is why he can wavedash in Brawl Minus]. While you'd have to temporarily release a direction, then continue holding it to airdodge while drifting, this would not have to replace any commands and would re-add wavedashing AND leave the airdodge intact [making the juggling game deeper, due to baiting airdodges requiring tighter timing/frame traps, but still being very much feasible].
Anyway, I really am in the minority. I'm a free thinker with Smash, not a conformist sheep like most people in the Melee, PM, Smash 4, even 64 and Brawl sides.
I want Smash to have more depth, but I want them to implement it in such a way that the learning curve is smooth so that casuals can transition to and from competitive play.
It's not an issue of "amount of depth" like both Sakurai and competitives think. It's the curve.
One step. ONE STEP is to turn one of the buttons into a wavedash-like "sliding dash" command, which would immediately make all the other "sliding" techniques redundant (because, let's face it, the developers aren't going to find and edit out every single one).
And now people are going to say "derp if you make one AT easy, you have to make the rest easy". And I'm going to say "you're just thinking in black and white and one step is good enough".
I pretty sure the last time u brought this up it was generally shot down because a single button command that slides you forward or back would essentially be rolling. Wavedashing is unpredictable because the lengths can be varied, and for what it accomplishes, it would have to be a two input system to get the same effect. Im pretty sure we all spent a decent amount of time on the subject trying to figure out a different system too. I don't remember going "derp, u have to make all AT's easy" either. Maybe u just have a better memory though.
I pretty sure the last time u brought this up it was generally shot down because a single button command that slides you forward or back would essentially be rolling. Wavedashing is unpredictable because the lengths can be varied, and for what it accomplishes, it would have to be a two input system to get the same effect. Im pretty sure we all spent a decent amount of time on the subject trying to figure out a different system too. I don't remember going "derp, u have to make all AT's easy" either. Maybe u just have a better memory though.
Give me one possible button input that would easily suit that purpose (the one-button WD) without messing with something else. I haven't been able to find any button that would be convenient (with finger placement concidered) enough to be useful for the single-press WD and wouldn't interfere with the controls as they already are.
Okay then. What if the "dash button" accepted a tilt input that determined how far you slide? Ranging from a "fake dash" by holding downwards to a full-length dash by holding full forward? It wouldn't be too different from the button+direction inputs the series is already famous for.
I'm imaginative enough to develop this ideas based on your input, you know. I'm also in the process of trying to convince someone to develop this as a Melee hack so I can experiment.
Sounds like you're having a problem finding like-thinkers for Smash.
Ugh. I hate the 00's style pop punk. Go with the REAL pop punk bands from the 90's, people (though I hold a soft spot for Masked Intruder since they combine 00's style with parts of 90's style).
Okay then. What if the "dash button" accepted a tilt input that determined how far you slide? Ranging from a "fake dash" by holding downwards to a full-length dash by holding full forward? It wouldn't be too different from the button+direction inputs the series is already famous for.
I'm imaginative enough to develop this ideas based on your input, you know. I'm also in the process of trying to convince someone to develop this as a Melee hack so I can experiment.
Ugh. I hate the 00's style pop punk. Go with the REAL pop punk bands from the 90's, people (though I hold a soft spot for Masked Intruder since they combine 00's style with parts of 90's style).
Off the top of my head what ur describing would make Westballz shine pressure impossible as u couldn't input the instant air dodge to the ground after ur second shine and waveland forward slightly. U would be forced to do two grounded shines which is far less useful. Other platform movement things would become very difficult or impossible too.
Before I knew how to wavedash I tried to think of ways that are easier. Now that I have a much better grasp of how Wavedashing is used in conjunction with platforms, dashing, and attacks, I really think its quite an ingenious system. Learning how to wavedash is such a blink of an eye compared to learning how to actually play the game im not really concerned with its difficulty turning away new players. Its not actually that difficult with a bit of practice, but applying it is the real learning curve, and im not convinced another type of system would teach newer players whenéhow to use it any quicker. Im not being "closed minded" with that statement, I really think its the truth after thinking about it for quite awhile.
Okay then. What if the "dash button" accepted a tilt input that determined how far you slide? Ranging from a "fake dash" by holding downwards to a full-length dash by holding full forward? It wouldn't be too different from the button+direction inputs the series is already famous for.
Also, what about Wavelanding? Having a one-button horizontal WD would prevent you from wavelanding onto a platform, so that would effectively take it out of the game completely (unless you cancelled the normal landing lag, but that wouldn't be a good idea).
Ugh. I hate the 00's style pop punk. Go with the REAL pop punk bands from the 90's, people (though I hold a soft spot for Masked Intruder since they combine 00's style with parts of 90's style).
Off the top of my head what ur describing would make Westballz shine pressure impossible as u couldn't input the instant air dodge to the ground after ur second shine and waveland forward slightly. U would be forced to do two grounded shines which is far less useful. Other platform movement things would become very difficult or impossible too.
Before I knew how to wavedash I tried to think of ways that are easier. Now that I have a much better grasp of how Wavedashing is used in conjunction with platforms, dashing, and attacks, I really think its quite an ingenious system. Learning how to wavedash is such a blink of an eye compared to learning how to actually play the game im not really concerned with its difficulty turning away new players. Its not actually that difficult with a bit of practice, but applying it is the real learning curve, and im not convinced another type of system would teach newer players whenéhow to use it any quicker. Im not being "closed minded" with that statement, I really think its the truth after thinking about it for quite awhile.
You make the assumption that you can't "easy wavedash" out of Reflect. What if you could? Use your imagination.
If there was a hacked button in Melee or even PM that made it so that you jump, then airdodge into the ground on the first frame afterwards, that would access the code that allows jump out of Reflect and instantly wavedash out.
It's very apparent to me that everyone here is suffering from Fan Myopia when it comes to wavedashing. Everyone's pretty much making the assumption that ANYONE could do it, but I talked to some people at a casual Smash 4 event at my university saying that he couldn't get the hang of wavedashing, DESPITE him being knowledgable of the Melee metagame.
Also, what about Wavelanding? Having a one-button horizontal WD would prevent you from wavelanding onto a platform, so that would effectively take it out of the game completely (unless you cancelled the normal landing lag, but that wouldn't be a good idea).
If Melee's air dodge was still in (and the game allowed you to slide by moving into the ground), wavelanding would still exist. Also, in the air, the wavedash button could function as an airdodge.
There's a lot of black-and-white thinking going on here. And they accuse Sakurai of doing the same.
If Melee's air dodge was still in (and the game allowed you to slide by moving into the ground), wavelanding would still exist. Also, in the air, the wavedash button could function as an airdodge.
You make the assumption that you can't "easy wavedash" out of Reflect. What if you could? Use your imagination.
If there was a hacked button in Melee or even PM that made it so that you jump, then airdodge into the ground on the first frame afterwards, that would access the code that allows jump out of Reflect and instantly wavedash out.
It's very apparent to me that everyone here is suffering from Fan Myopia when it comes to wavedashing. Everyone's pretty much making the assumption that ANYONE could do it, but I talked to some people at a casual Smash 4 event at my university saying that he couldn't get the hang of wavedashing, DESPITE him being knowledgable of the Melee metagame.
U didn't understand what I described if u think I was saying the problem was wavedasing out of reflect. The problem I was pointing out is that u would have to make the mechanic more complex to do everything that happens in westballz pressure. It combines multishining, jump forward, airdodge, waveland forward all in just a three button combination as it is now. U could make it work, but it will take more than one button and a control stick.
And anyone can do it. Its not very hard with PRACTICE. If ur friends couldn't do it then they didn't practice, which wouldn't be suprising seeing as u polled Smash4 casuals at ur university. One week of half an hour practice on L-canceling and Wavedashing and I guarantee they could do it fine. One week is a blink of an eye compared to learning the melee metagame. If he couldnt wavedash, then he hasn't even scratched the surface of the melee metagame.
Im pretty sure this wont go any farther unless u learn the mechanic and test its uses by urself. U can throw out different ways of doing it all u want, but how can u expect to reinvent something u don't fully understand? I know ur about to pull the whole "melee elitist" thing on me in a moment, but I think ur the one being arrogant telling everyone they don't have the "imagination" to come up with a better mechanic. Fan Myopia? Give me a break. U literally started an entire thread on this last week and u basically just ripped on anyone who gave u an answer u didn't like. Im sure there is a psychologic term for that, but im not gunna Wikipedia it just to pretend Im a psychologist.
U didn't understand what I described if u think I was saying the problem was wavedasing out of reflect. The problem I was pointing out is that u would have to make the mechanic more complex to do everything that happens in westballz pressure. It combines multishining, jump forward, airdodge, waveland forward all in just a three button combination as it is now. U could make it work, but it will take more than one button and a control stick.
Because wavedashing is unique in that it provides a great idea to rework in the Smash series into a basic mechanic. I already said before that it smooths out the learning curve, which is a much better way of decreasing the skill gap between skilled and casual play by creating a smooth transition between the two states.
And again, what if the original air dodge existed on top of the "easy wavedash". Now that I went an actually looked at Westballz Pressure, I've seen that it's one of many variations of pillaring. Will there be any alienation if Melee's air dodge existed alongside an "easy wavedash" aside from the "it's more accessible now it sucks" reaction?
And you're right about me not being a psychologist. I'm a troper, and I love TVTropes for its ability to condense a lot of concepts into simple phrases.
Pretty much. Not only does it preserve the original form, but it also smooths out the learning curve without impacting the amount of depth.
Because wavedashing is unique in that it provides a great idea to rework in the Smash series into a basic mechanic. I already said before that it smooths out the learning curve, which is a much better way of decreasing the skill gap between skilled and casual play by creating a smooth transition between the two states.
And again, what if the original air dodge existed on top of the "easy wavedash". Now that I went an actually looked at Westballz Pressure, I've seen that it's one of many variations of pillaring. Will there be any alienation if Melee's air dodge existed alongside an "easy wavedash" aside from the "it's more accessible now it sucks" reaction?
And you're right about me not being a psychologist. I'm a troper, and I love TVTropes for its ability to condense a lot of concepts into simple phrases.
Westballz pressure isn't pillaring. Heres a link https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uMSPEzCFVb0. In the video he's not moving towards his opponent the way he would if it was someone in shield though, its more difficult when that is added.
I actually hate having this discussion because it comes across exactly the way u say, like I don't want the game to be accessible. That's not it though, Im saying there is no easy way to make the game simpler without sacrificing the games depth. You may not realize this yet but the gap between the pros and the scrubs is so much bigger than the technical aspect, in every game. Not just melee, but street fighter, brawl, even smash4. Good players play for hours a day, everyday, alone and with others. The transition isn't smooth in any game because few people are willing to commit. The best way to make any game accessible is to have resources available for people to learn, and there is so much for melee now. Its honestly more accessible competitively than Smash4 in many ways as there is a well defined meta to work with and start practicing.
And all wavedashing is, is jump then airdodge down in a direction. I don't see how that isn't intuitive or simple. Its the easiest possible way it could be for all the options it grants u. If u come to a tournament, I guarantee u there will be several people there willing to teach u, because everyone wants to see new faces join the scene.
I actually hate having this discussion because it comes across exactly the way u say, like I don't want the game to be accessible. That's not it though, Im saying there is no easy way to make the game simpler without sacrificing the games depth. You may not realize this yet but the gap between the pros and the scrubs is so much bigger than the technical aspect, in every game. Not just melee, but street fighter, brawl, even smash4. Good players play for hours a day, everyday, alone and with others. The transition isn't smooth in any game because few people are willing to commit. The best way to make any game accessible is to have resources available for people to learn, and there is so much for melee now. Its honestly more accessible competitively than Smash4 in many ways as there is a well defined meta to work with and start practicing.
At this point I'm calming down. No more ad hominem attacks. I realize that trying to get to others with condescension is only driving others away.
But with all due respect, I won't give up finding ways to add onto Smash and thinking beyond Melee, PM, Smash U, and even Brawl and 64 that ultimately increases depth, accessibility, or (preferably) both.
And all wavedashing is, is jump then airdodge down in a direction. I don't see how that isn't intuitive or simple. Its the easiest possible way it could be for all the options it grants u. If u come to a tournament, I guarantee u there will be several people there willing to teach u, because everyone wants to see new faces join the scene.
The issue here is that it's time sensitive. Think about the general public for a bit. Some people (myself included) dislike time-sensitive inputs in fighting games like Guile's moves in Street Fighter. Now make that time sensitive input a few frames window requiring quick action and anything one frame earlier or later is a failure. Can you see how off-putting that may seem if the game actually requires it? It is an issue I find with Project M. I was initially put off by PM for that reason until I just resigned to like it for some reasons and dislike it for others.
Also, I just said that a dash (or "easy wavedash) can be mapped to a button (either a shoulder or an XY button + customization), its length can be changed with the control stick, and its input can be airdodging in the air so wavelanding (even the established wavedashing) can still work. Competitive players generally find wavedashing one of the easiest things (and practicing it myself, I'm inclined to agree), so is there any harm in making it easier? Is there anything else that can't be achieved with my hypothetical setup?
I'm not part of the discussion you had earlier about making the game more accessible with an easy wavedash button but I have a problem with it. If you want to have easy buttons that just do what you want them to do you will prolly end up with too many buttons. I can sorta wavedash waveland consistantly. (only after warmup but whatev) I would personally enjoy a button that shield drops for me a lot more. Then there's some other guy that's like omg I just have to moon/sticky walk man and then near any fox/falco would love a button that multishined for them, maybe even a button to do powershields or frame perfect oos things.
There's prolly a lot more people would want macros to do certain things for them. Then you either get a controller with 10.000 buttons (not necessarily located conveniently) or a controller with 1 or 2 macro buttons added to it. With which you would still have to learn to do good wavedashes and wavelands cause learning most of the other things is harder and giving up easy shield drops would be too not worth it. (not even covering the fact that you need a controller with more buttons than the gamecube controller since the way it is most people kinda already wants us to use all buttons)
Lastly this may sounds elitist I guess but I think any player that doesn't feel like putting in the effort to learn wavedashes of all things. (a necessary and not that hard tech in comparison to some other things in the game) probably doesn't really want to put in enough effort to make a dent into the top players of their region. In which case if you don't enjoy wavedashing/landing you don't have to. It won't change up your result that much if you don't want to put in work anyway.
At this point I'm calming down. No more ad hominem attacks. I realize that trying to get to others with condescension is only driving others away.
But with all due respect, I won't give up finding ways to add onto Smash and thinking beyond Melee, PM, Smash U, and even Brawl and 64 that ultimately increases depth, accessibility, or (preferably) both.
The issue here is that it's time sensitive. Think about the general public for a bit. Some people (myself included) dislike time-sensitive inputs in fighting games like Guile's moves in Street Fighter. Now make that time sensitive input a few frames window requiring quick action and anything one frame earlier or later is a failure. Can you see how off-putting that may seem if the game actually requires it? It is an issue I find with Project M. I was initially put off by PM for that reason until I just resigned to like it for some reasons and dislike it for others.
Also, I just said that a dash (or "easy wavedash) can be mapped to a button (either a shoulder or an XY button + customization), its length can be changed with the control stick, and its input can be airdodging in the air so wavelanding (even the established wavedashing) can still work. Competitive players generally find wavedashing one of the easiest things (and practicing it myself, I'm inclined to agree), so is there any harm in making it easier? Is there anything else that can't be achieved with my hypothetical setup?
I guess this is the divide that cant be overcome though, I like that the inputs are difficult and test my dexterity and percison. If i could do anything i wanted anytime I wanted then the game would be much less interesting. The fact, that I thought that the tech skill i can do now was impossible just a few months ago is actually the coolest part of the game. Its been rewarding for me to learn these techniques. Thats one of the reasons im so disheartened when people dont want to learn techskill, i feel like they are missing out on something that really endears me to the game.
So saying that it would appeal to everyone if the techskill was made easy isnt really true beacause it wouldnt appeal to me or many others who play the game currently as much. Thats why i dont take an interest in smash4, its just not that fun for me on that level. Obviously though it appeals to the market ur speaking of, so all the best to those who want to play it.
One final thing too, before PM 3.5, PM had a huge window to preform a wavedash in. It was essentially an "easy" wavedash. Im not exactly sure why it was changed in 3.5, but from what i can tell is that it didnt make the appeal of the game much bigger for Brawl players, and Melee players didnt care for it, or would complain it was to easy. PM still has an extra frame window to preform every tech though, so its something.
@C-SAF
: Yeah, I get you there. It's the same reason why people are proclaiming Dark Souls/Demon's Souls to be superior to Zelda and even Elder Scrolls. And I enjoy discovering new stuff in other games like Sonic 3 & Knuckles (best Sonic game ever), Super Mario World, Metroid...
But, IMO, it's ultimately the depth alone that defines value to me. And another thing; wavedashing, input aside, resembles dashing in several other fighting games, and even a few platformers like Castlevania and Mega Man X. And in most fighting games, you can't even change the length of your dash, and no one complains. I don't see the harm in adapting something from other fighting games and platformers into Smash, and even adding onto it in the process.
Not as a fighter, mind you; he's borderline Overused/Underused, but Sakurai's decision to make HIM the Captain Falcon clone instead of another F-Zero character ripples to this day.
And if it were up to me, they should just remove run pivots and make you instantly run in the other direction at any point (not just in a slight window).
As a competitive game, I do not like Smash 4 simply because it's entirely different from Melee. That's all there is to it. I won't be taking this game seriously because I get rewarded too much for staying in shield, rolling, air dodging, spot dodging, and surviving at crazy percents. It's pretty much Brawl minus tripping and chaingrabs with different ledge mechanics, rage comeback mechanic, stages, and new characters.
Now people start bringing up debates on both sides out of nowhere saying that how amazing Smash 4 is compared to Melee, and I see some of the Melee players are guilty of this as well. Saying that Smash 4 is god awful and boring to watch. Bottom line is, keep your opinions to yourselves.
However, if you say to me what I think about Smash 4 as a video game, I LOVE it. The characters, music, stages, and gorgeous graphics are godlike.
