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Why the hate for the heels?

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FirestormNeos

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Am I the only one who's noticing all the creepy similarities between Metroid: Other M and Sonic the Hedgehog (2006)?

- Worst in the Series. Shut up, captain obvious.
- Everyone who says they like the game is lying. Oh for the love of...
- Both typically are refereed to with shortened names (Sonic the Hedgehog 2006: Sonic 06/Metroid Other M: Other M)
- Bad art design (Sonic 06: "Realistic" Grey-Brown Filth/Other M: "Futuristic" Grey-Brown Filth)
- Gameplay copies stuff from older games for the sake of being "lolretro" (Sonic 06: Rips off Sonic Adventure/Other M: Rips off every Metroid game that wasn't in the Prime series)
- Main Character is shot in the back (Sonic 06: Sonic is impaled with a lazar thingy by Mephelis/Other M: Samus is shot in the back by Adam)
- The infamous Lava Levels (Sonic 06: cheap death rains from the sky in Flame Core/Other M: The Hell Run fiasco.)
- They are compared to the Star Wars Prequels (Sonic 06: Has similar Horseshoed-in love story, just like Episode II/Other M: Not enough people to tell George Lucas Sakamoto that a lot of his ideas are terrible)
- Everyone hates the designs of the protagonists used in the games because that's the design the game decided to use (Modern Sonic and Other M Samus don't look bad, but the fact that their in these games ruin the designs)
- Writing comes off as creepy Fan Fiction (Sonic 06: Beastiality undertones/Other M: Abusive relationship undertones)
- Gameplay commits Heresy (Sonic 06: Sonic doesn't run fast naturally/Other M: Too Linear)
- Flawed comprehension of how important plot devices work (Sonic 06: TIME TRAVEL DOES NOT WORK THAT WAY/Other M: PTSD DOES NOT ALWAYS WORK THAT WAY)
- Main character acts nothing like they do (Sonic 06: Sonic only makes one snarky comment, and it's in the very first cutscene you watch/Other M: ahem.)

Conclusion: The next Metroid game will be called Metroid Unleashed, and it will be about how Samus turns into a Werewolf at night, during which the gameplay style shifts into a beat 'em up game. It will be about how Ridley "blew up" a planet into chucks so he could release Cthulhu Clone #45329568 and Samus has to put it together by going to Gaia Temples and restoring the--... wait a minute, Chaos Emeralds don't exist in the Metroid Universe. Damnit!

:4greninja:'d: what the heck did i just type?

I have love/hate (well actually hate is too strong of a word) feelings about Gaijin Goomba but I can't deny he makes a lot of good points.
Speaking of GG, can someone for the love of Arceus please link me to the video where he criticizes Hatsane Miku? I can't find it anywhere!
 
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I don't have a problem with ZSS' heels. They're a cool design element that buffs her jumps and all that. I admit, it's not what the Zero Mission developers intended to make, but it's still great.
 

BaganSmashBros

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Conclusion: The next Metroid game will be called Metroid Unleashed, and it will be about how Samus turns into a Ridley at night, during which the gameplay style shifts into a beat 'em up game. It will be about how Samus blew up a planet into chucks and released Cthulhu Clone #45329568 and Samus has to put it together by going to Gaia Temples and restoring the planet`s energy through a very painful hunt for the Temple Keys.
Fixed. But that is off-topic.

Well, at least those are practical. And there is something no one even thinks about - heels are not only for females.
"Although high-heeled shoes or boots have more often been worn by women, in various times and places they have been standard features of men's footwear too, either for practical reasons or as fashionable items.

Mongolian horsemen were among the first to use heels as means to keep their feet from sliding out of their stirrups. It is also well known that Egyptian butchers wore high heels so they would not step directly in offal. Pharaohs and nobles in Ancient Egypt would wear high heels to show power and for ceremonial purposes.

Actors playing tragic roles in ancient Greek drama wore the buskin, a boot with a platform sole, designed to give them greater height over other actors.

The Romans, both men and women, wore cothurns, or sandals with platform heels; these were intended to lift the wearers above mud and garbage in the streets. Geta, which are based on a similar concept, are still used in Japan today.

American cowboy boots, first developed in the 19th century and still popular today in some parts of the United States, have high underslung heels to keep a rider's foot from sliding through the stirrup.

High-heeled platform shoes were a widely popular form of men's footwear during the 1970s."

At least her heels are practical and extremely bulky anyway. It could have been worse. It could have been better and i agree with that. But i don`t care about that and can just ignore it because if you don`t want to see that - don`t use that character like i do because Samus is enough for me and the roster itself, so, she wastes a slot IMO, but i can do nothing about it and don`t care about that unless she will remain the only "2nd" Metroid rep and i replaced ZSS with that Ridley hack in Brawl, so, i haven`t seen her for few months or ignore it.

And everyone who complains about something like that ingores overly-manly manlyness of Captain Falcon that rivals Batman`s and Superman`s or even goes further beyond the infinity, smaller SSB4 Bowser (when compared to him in Brawl), but not...duh...i hope i will never return this thread ever again and that it will cease to exist along with few other similar threads because discussing gameplay is a lot more important that...that. Im really tired of that.

By the way, doesn`t those threads break rule "3. No Explicit Profanity or Inappropriate Material" since there is alot inappropriate words used? If no, then...duh...
 
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Swamp Sensei

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I still don't get it why heels (which are a normal thing really) are the big problem, when she gets a whip and uses it almost like a dominatrix.

Isn't that an even bigger more apparent fetish?
 

FirestormNeos

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Just so Xenophobes don't get the chance to vent their anger at Japan in this thread, I'm going to provide this little supplement.

Fixed. But that is off-topic.
Well at least she doesn't have to play the godawful special stages from Sonic Heroes.

Well, at least those are practical. And there is something no one even thinks about - heels are not only for females.
"Although high-heeled shoes or boots have more often been worn by women, in various times and places they have been standard features of men's footwear too, either for practical reasons or as fashionable items.

Mongolian horsemen were among the first to use heels as means to keep their feet from sliding out of their stirrups. It is also well known that Egyptian butchers wore high heels so they would not step directly in offal. Pharaohs and nobles in Ancient Egypt would wear high heels to show power and for ceremonial purposes.

Actors playing tragic roles in ancient Greek drama wore the buskin, a boot with a platform sole, designed to give them greater height over other actors.

The Romans, both men and women, wore cothurns, or sandals with platform heels; these were intended to lift the wearers above mud and garbage in the streets. Geta, which are based on a similar concept, are still used in Japan today.

American cowboy boots, first developed in the 19th century and still popular today in some parts of the United States, have high underslung heels to keep a rider's foot from sliding through the stirrup.

High-heeled platform shoes were a widely popular form of men's footwear during the 1970s."
Well that explains Raiden then.

By the way, doesn`t those threads break rule "3. No Explicit Profanity or Inappropriate Material" since there is alot inappropriate words used? If no, then...duh...
What threads?
 

BaganSmashBros

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Well at least she doesn't have to play the godawful special stages from Sonic Heroes.
Well that explains Raiden then.
What threads?
Oh...about that...you must play those stages from Sonic Heroes, but with tons of Metroids everywhere, bottomless pits, knockback, Medusa heads, Godd**ned bats, Zubats, knockback, those d**n Medusa head...did i said that there is Medusa heads and knockback on those stages? Oh, and you MUST complete them after each stage. Have fun!

And Starscream. That stiletto freak that has heels even though he is a friggin' robot from space that doesn't even uses his legs in combat...and doesn't looks like a guy if you will ignore his head...

Those threads:
http://smashboards.com/threads/am-i-the-only-one-who-thinks-that-zams-is-too-big.352264/ http://smashboards.com/threads/serious-question-should-zss-have-slight-jiggle-physics.352967/
Those must be deleted instead of being just locked. I didn`t visited them, but i don`t want to ruin my mind even further than it is...for different reasons of course...
 
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Shiliski

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samus does not need jiggle physics

i can see the heels, i can see the jumpsuit, i can even see the swim suit

but i draw the line at jiggle physics.
 

D-idara

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Am I the only one who's noticing all the creepy similarities between Metroid: Other M and Sonic the Hedgehog (2006)?

- Worst in the Series. Shut up, captain obvious.
- Everyone who says they like the game is lying. Oh for the love of...
- Both typically are refereed to with shortened names (Sonic the Hedgehog 2006: Sonic 06/Metroid Other M: Other M)
- Bad art design (Sonic 06: "Realistic" Grey-Brown Filth/Other M: "Futuristic" Grey-Brown Filth)
- Gameplay copies stuff from older games for the sake of being "lolretro" (Sonic 06: Rips off Sonic Adventure/Other M: Rips off every Metroid game that wasn't in the Prime series)
- Main Character is shot in the back (Sonic 06: Sonic is impaled with a lazar thingy by Mephelis/Other M: Samus is shot in the back by Adam)
- The infamous Lava Levels (Sonic 06: cheap death rains from the sky in Flame Core/Other M: The Hell Run fiasco.)
- They are compared to the Star Wars Prequels (Sonic 06: Has similar Horseshoed-in love story, just like Episode II/Other M: Not enough people to tell George Lucas Sakamoto that a lot of his ideas are terrible)
- Everyone hates the designs of the protagonists used in the games because that's the design the game decided to use (Modern Sonic and Other M Samus don't look bad, but the fact that their in these games ruin the designs)
- Writing comes off as creepy Fan Fiction (Sonic 06: Beastiality undertones/Other M: Abusive relationship undertones)
- Gameplay commits Heresy (Sonic 06: Sonic doesn't run fast naturally/Other M: Too Linear)
- Flawed comprehension of how important plot devices work (Sonic 06: TIME TRAVEL DOES NOT WORK THAT WAY/Other M: PTSD DOES NOT ALWAYS WORK THAT WAY)
- Main character acts nothing like they do (Sonic 06: Sonic only makes one snarky comment, and it's in the very first cutscene you watch/Other M: ahem.)

Conclusion: The next Metroid game will be called Metroid Unleashed, and it will be about how Samus turns into a Werewolf at night, during which the gameplay style shifts into a beat 'em up game. It will be about how Ridley "blew up" a planet into chucks so he could release Cthulhu Clone #45329568 and Samus has to put it together by going to Gaia Temples and restoring the--... wait a minute, Chaos Emeralds don't exist in the Metroid Universe. Damnit!

:4greninja:'d: what the heck did i just type?



Speaking of GG, can someone for the love of Arceus please link me to the video where he criticizes Hatsane Miku? I can't find it anywhere!
So like Sonic Unleashed? Metroid Unleashed will only be liked by real fans of the series and every bandwagoner will hate it?
 

Shiliski

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Actually, after thinking about how bad a certain series has been in the past, at least in 3D, the complaints about Other M seem petty in comparison.

You think you've seen bad games? Pfft. Get on my level.

When you see a canon Samus x Kraid pairing, have Samus bug out and fall through the world map on a regular basis, get your camera stuck in a wall where you can't even see Samus, have all the maturity in the game's story be siphoned out and replaced with a super childish and often grating tone, be forced through a completely unplayably buggy special stage in order to see the real ending of the game, be forced through unplayably buggy actual levels to see the real ending of the game, and gotten randomly killed by unpredictable glitches, then you can talk. Until then, don't even talk to me about your "That's not how PTSD works!" johns.

...

okay on second thought I'll give you the super childish and grating tone one. Metroid still has amazing QA compared to... well... other games. That I wont mention. Directly.
 

FirestormNeos

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Oh...about that...you must play those stages from Sonic Heroes, but with tons of Metroids everywhere, bottomless pits, knockback, Medusa heads, Godd**ned bats, Zubats, knockback, those d**n Medusa head...did i said that there is Medusa heads and knockback on those stages? Oh, and you MUST complete them after each stage. Have fun!
I hated Egg Emperor when I first played Heroes.

And Starscream. That stiletto freak that has heels even though he is a friggin' robot from space that doesn't even uses his legs in combat...and doesn't looks like a guy if you will ignore his head...
When I saw the samus reveal and saw she had Rocket Boots, Starscream from Animated was the first thing to pop into my head.

I haz a weird head. :|

Those threads:
http://smashboards.com/threads/am-i-the-only-one-who-thinks-that-zams-is-too-big.352264/ http://smashboards.com/threads/serious-question-should-zss-have-slight-jiggle-physics.352967/
Those must be deleted instead of being just locked. I didn`t visited them, but i don`t want to ruin my mind even further than it is...for different reasons of course...
So-bad-it's-funny threads are So-bad-it's-funny.

samus does not need jiggle physics

i can see the heels, i can see the jumpsuit, i can even see the swim suit

but i draw the line at jiggle physics.
Knowing Sakurai, he'd only use jiggle physics for the hair. :troll:
 

TheDarkKnightNoivern

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Other M: Rips off every Metroid game that wasn't in the Prime seriesanywhere!
Even though every other metoid game was 2d
Actually, after thinking about how bad a certain series has been in the past, at least in 3D, the complaints about Other M seem petty in comparison.

You think you've seen bad games? Pfft. Get on my level.

When you see a canon Samus x Kraid pairing, have Samus bug out and fall through the world map on a regular basis, get your camera stuck in a wall where you can't even see Samus, have all the maturity in the game's story be siphoned out and replaced with a super childish and often grating tone, be forced through a completely unplayably buggy special stage in order to see the real ending of the game, be forced through unplayably buggy actual levels to see the real ending of the game, and gotten randomly killed by unpredictable glitches, then you can talk. Until then, don't even talk to me about your "That's not how PTSD works!" johns.

...

okay on second thought I'll give you the super childish and grating tone one. Metroid still has amazing QA compared to... well... other games. That I wont mention. Directly.
I don't get the hate for other m, at least the game ****ing works, in fact it's pretty fun although using a d-pad in a 3D space isn't. It's just the story that's garbage
 
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BaganSmashBros

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When I saw the samus reveal and saw she had Rocket Boots, Starscream from Animated was the first thing to pop into my head.

So-bad-it's-funny threads are So-bad-it's-funny.

Knowing Sakurai, he'd only use jiggle physics for the hair. :troll:
Because of teh CHIN? In the next Metroid game, Samus will gain a chin so big it rivals Ridley`s toobigotory.

They are not funny. Its So-Bad-Its-Horrible.

And Wario with King Dedede will have those too...At least those physics are applied only to capes, fur (maybe) and hair only...and maybe Wario and DDD`s...certain parts...instead of other parts, like Tekken and DoA (especially DoA) do. If it will ever be applied to those certain parts, then it would mean that something is wrong with developers.
 

FirestormNeos

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Even though every other metoid game was 2d

I don't get the hate for other m, at least the game ****ing works, in fact it's pretty fun although using a d-pad in a 3D space isn't. It's just the story that's garbage
Metroid Games have always been praised by players for being a Non-Linear experience. Even the less spacious titles like Fusion and Prime 3 at least gave you some concept of exploration. But Other M doesn't do that, at least not from what I've heard. Other M locks doors behind you permanently, areas have to be accessed when the voice in your head tells you to go in, rather then when you have the power-up. You have to do everything in the order the game tells you to.

Also, the game has a very nasty habit of trying to emulate the 2D games,

Because of teh CHIN? In the next Metroid game, Samus will gain a chin so big it rivals Ridley`s toobigotory.
No, because he also had Rocket... feet, but I'll play along.

CHINS. MY GOD.

They are not funny. Its So-Bad-Its-Horrible.
Why not both? :troll:

And Wario with King Dedede will have those too...At least those physics are applied only to capes, fur (maybe) and hair only...and maybe Wario and DDD`s...certain parts...instead of other parts, like Tekken and DoA (especially DoA) do. If it will ever be applied to those certain parts, then it would mean that something is wrong with developers.
I was thinking more along the lines of Wind Waker where everything but chests had jiggle physics.

Don't believe me? Here's a quote from this entry-- OH GOD MY EYES. IT BURNS!

Tv Tropes said:
The Legend of Zelda: The Wind Waker was the first game in the Zelda series to have a full-blown physics system for animating hair, clothes, flags, and grass, though The Legend of Zelda: Majora's Mask was the first in the series to have some type of jiggle physics (for a few of the masks). In The Wind Waker, the jiggle physics allow for some spectacular billowing effects,
especially with Ganon's cloak during the final battle of the game.
  • The Legend of Zelda: Skyward Sword has this on Peater. You know. The fat guy. Yeah, him.
  • And the Moblins. You know. The ones in thongs. Yeah, them.
  • Like in The Wind Waker, there's also some physics applied to long clothing, such as Link's tunic and hat, and some items, such as the bug net. Pretty much everything except for women's breasts jiggle.
Yeah... I'm out.
 
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TheDarkKnightNoivern

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Metroid Games have always been praised by players for being a Non-Linear experience. Even the less spacious titles like Fusion and Prime 3 at least gave you some concept of exploration. But Other M doesn't do that, at least not from what I've heard. Other M locks doors behind you permanently, areas have to be accessed when the voice in your head tells you to go in, rather then when you have the power-up. You have to do everything in the order the game tells you to.
Well the game was very story focused so that's to be expected, It was aiming to be something different but it kinda backfired. But I still though it was fun and plays well
 
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KingBroly

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They didn't have much focus for the story beyond 'this will be in the story because Sakamoto deems it so.' Other M explains NOTHING and is perfectly appeased by doing so. It's mind-boggling how many times you can ask 'Why?' in it where you will not have it answered by the end. It's mind-boggling. Usually a story (aka, one that is coherent and understandable) connects the dots from A to B to C etc. until a conclusion is reached, although sometimes the story will come across strong enough where a piece is yanked out but still understandable. But that takes skill. Something Yoshio Sakamoto can't comprehend with a magic market, let alone a pen. Other M skips over about 15-20 years of Samus' life (aka, the important part) and the game doesn't even give you the impression that those years existed to begin within his own perverse head.
 

FirestormNeos

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BloderModer

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I still don't get it why heels (which are a normal thing really) are the big problem, when she gets a whip and uses it almost like a dominatrix.

Isn't that an even bigger more apparent fetish?
The heels are new, the whip is not.
In the context of a skin-tight suit and dominatrix-like whip weapon, It becomes problematic.
This doesn't mean that the whip is less problematic.
While I'm against the whip, there isn't so much to do about it without changing Zamus moveset.
The heels are completely unnecessary in a world with double jumps and characters that kick without any need for jet-boosters or heels.
 

TheDarkKnightNoivern

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I can honestly say I liked playing as the Werehog. :3

That makes me feel so much better for some reason. Alright, I'll quit bugging you now.

Oh! I almost forgot, while it is nice you see something in the game that others don't, make sure it's not for the wrong reasons!
I like the werehog too, it was really fun pulling off insane combos and unlocking new moves. It's also why I'm really excited about Sonic Boom
 
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FirestormNeos

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The heels are completely unnecessary in a world with double jumps and characters that kick without any need for jet-boosters or heels.
I suppose by that logic, R.O.B. using rocket thingy that wasn't there before to hover for his Up-B was completely unnessisary as well. He should just be able to suddenly levitate without any given reason.

I'm not guilty about unleashed, I love that game but other m yes definitely a guilty pleasure
You already said that.
 
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Shiliski

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I can honestly say I liked playing as the Werehog. :3

That makes me feel so much better for some reason. Alright, I'll quit bugging you now.

Oh! I almost forgot, while it is nice you see something in the game that others don't, make sure it's not for the wrong reasons!

Oh here's a link.

*clicks*

....

Well that was disturbing. It does raise an interesting question though.

If Samus was sub to Adam's dom, why is she suddenly going dom with the whips and heels? Apparently Sakurai has a different interpretation of Samus than Sakamoto has.

I'm kidding, mostly.



Ugh, I really don't want to rant on this, and I know probably 90% of you don't care but... ugh...

Tell you what. I'll just do this:

I can't quite take the video seriously unless I see the whole game again with these points in mind, because I hear a ton of arguments and "theories" like this that seem to make perfect sense until you see the game again and are like "Yeah, no. That perfectly good sounding point was actually way off on further review." I'm not dismissing it, just treating it skepticism until I can think about it more and review the facts.

Typically speaking, selfish abusive sociopaths (and yes, the video very much paints Adam as being sociopathic even if it doesn't say it) don't really sacrifice themselves for the good of the galaxy, so that's a pretty glaring contradiction. If Adam really was that psycho, he would've gotten one of his people to do it and then used the "tragic and heroic death" of his comrade to elevate his own position in the eyes of his superiors. Taking the role of the "fake hero" only really helps you if you're alive to enjoy it. Then again, it was the only part of the plot that was set in stone due to Fusion, and everything else was up to the writer, so the only thing that really redeems Adam off the top of my head is the part that isn't up to the storyline of Other M. Which is kindof sad, really, and kindof meaningless since Sakamoto was in charge of both.

He also makes the point that, if the genders were swapped, this would instead be a horrifyingly terrible femdom story that people would clearly dispise. Weeeeell it's all well and good to claim that, but historically that's not the case. Femdom is actually seen as "pretty hot", and not "horrifyingly abusive" as he claims.

Examples: Rachael Alucard, Bayonetta, Pretty much any dominatrix ever, and the only reason there's even a complaint about Samus's whip and heels is because of the prevalence and general acceptance of the femdom fetish.

Not trying to justify it, but it's right there. I'm looking at it, it's right there. Right there. Don't try to tell me it isn't or pretend to me that this isn't a commonly accepted thing. Should we question it? Maybe we should, maybe we shouldn't, but acting like we would all be up in arms over a creepy femdom fantasy is just... well... no. No we would not be. I can confidently assert this because, historically, aside from a few isolated cases we haven't been complaining at all. Don't try to tell me that Rachael Alucard is somehow a completely different story, because it really isn't. She is comically and outright admittedly as abusive as this video merely speculates Other M's Adam to be. If for some reason you don't see it, go ahead and look up what an "abusive relationship" actually is. There are tons of resources that are all too happy to inform you.

While I do kinda believe in some points that modern gamer-feminists make, such as the desire for equal or near-equal gender representation (there needs to be some leeway for creativity), I have to point out one thing: It's incredibly hypocritical for feminists to ask for heroines who have roles that are specifically feminine (in order to pull away from the Ms. Man trope), cite motherhood as being such a role that they'd like to see more of, and then suddenly get up in arms when someone actually gives them exactly that. Now, I'll agree that Other M probably was not the best medium through which to explore these themes, and Nintendo doesn't exactly have a history of respectfully handling potentially pro-female games *coughSuperPrincessPeachcough*, but I can't help but feel like this particular point damages the credibility of the person making the point, along with damaging the credibility of people claiming to want more heroine-mothers to begin with. That said, I can't really blame them for that, because again Nintendo isn't exactly stellar when it comes to gender politics.

There are other arguments I could make, but I don't believe that M:OM (I can't unsee it. Thanks random youtuber.) really deserves a strong defense. I will say this about Sakamoto: If we assume the worst case and assume that Sakamoto sees this kind of abusive relationship as healthy, possibly due to how his real relationships are handled, who says he's the Adam of that relationship? Who says he isn't the Samus? After all, Samus is the main character and therefore the one meant to be identified with, but Samus never sees a real problem with this relationship either. Nor does Sakamoto, because he paints Adam up as being a self-sacrificing hero and not some nutcase who ultimately betrays Samus. Granted, at this point we're speculating about a total stranger's personal life so I don't want to go too far down that road, but since the video did bring it up as an attack on Sakamoto's character I felt it needed to be addressed.

On the other hand, while I sometimes frown at Nintendo for a few inconsistent cases of disrespect to gender equality, I can't really take gender politics as a whole seriously either, because:

1) If MRAs and Feminists were both after the same thing (gender equality), which is what they claim, then they should be getting along famously. If they don't get along every single time, they should at least be getting along once in a while. They do not. At all. MRAs viciously attack feminists and feminists pretend that MRAs don't really exist.

2) The label of "Feminism" has paradoxically been used to justify the most misogynist stuff out there. No, I'm not misusing that word.

  • Every time a female heroine gains some recognition, they find ways to tear it down as "not good enough", regardless of whether these heroines have it worse or even better than comparable heroes, which in the end is pretty discouraging to see for a developer trying to develop female characters, thereby undermining the very thing they claim to want. Why try pleasing a fanbase that doesn't want to be pleased?
  • No one complains about a guy in the kitchen but a girl in the kitchen is terrible. While I understand the historical context of why that is, Isn't the logic that "It's okay when a guy does it but when a girl does it it's awful" kindof provably and inherently sexist against women?
  • Let's face it: The only Samus that the fake feminists didn't complain (as much) about was a silent protagonist. Said another way, the only currently acceptable Samus is a Samus who is seen and not heard.
  • Even then they still complained about Samus being sexualized only to turn around and say "it's okay for a man to be sexy so it should be okay for a woman to be sexy, too". Well which is it? Is it shameful and demeaning to be sexy or is it not? IMO you can only complain about Samus's heels after Little Mac puts a shirt on and Marth cuts his hair.
Example for the first bullet point:

When Sailor Mars (or any other senshi) saves Sailor Moon with an ocean of fire, Mars is using teamwork and showing that she can be tough and reliable and certainly isn't doing anything to damage Moon's credibility, but when Tuxedo Mask throws a little rose around and, in spite of hype, plays a role that is little above the cats in terms of actual combat relevance he's suddenly an evil overbearing male who single-handedly sucks all of the female empowerment out of the series faster than a Youma can steal your energy. (The guy has an interrupt and a melee non-killing damage option for crying out loud. Mercury could do better and she gets upgrades later on. Tuxedo Mask for cat tier.)

To put this in better context, let's compare Tuxedo Mask to, say, Princess Zelda.
-Both of them are the main character's love interest. (This was slightly arguable in early LoZ games, but Skyward Sword and Minish Cap pretty much remove all doubt.)
-This relationship is hindered and torn apart by life and circumstances, usually by the "main threat" (Ganondorf/Vaati or Beryl/Ali+En/Future Tux Mask/Sailor Galaxia: Take your pick)
-This relationship is also based upon a love in a previous life, and the feelings of that relationship continue into following lives.
-Both of them provide assistance to the main character that the main character arguably couldn't succeed without, but not enough assistance to really make the story about themselves more than the main character.
-Both of them are significantly outpowered by the main character, at least by the end of the story.
-Both of them get damsel'd. More than once.
-Both of them get mind controlled into fighting the main character at some point.
-Both of them get put in the fridge, though Spirit Tracks is kindof an edge case there. If you argue that ST doesn't count, then Mask actually has it worse than Zelda because his case is in no way an edge case.
-Both are admittedly attractive to people who are into their respective genders.
-Both of them are wiser and more mature than their hero/heroine counterparts.
-Both of their series's respective main characters start out weak (3 hearts is weak. You can't really argue that.) but get stronger over time. (StarS Usagi is a lot different than Season 1 Usagi, and I'm not even talking about the combat upgrades).

And yet, between Link and Zelda, who is considered to be the stronger character? Link. Between Moon and Mask, who is considered stronger? Paradoxically, it's Tuxedo Mask, for exactly the same reasoning used to argue that Zelda is weak. Seems to me like we're just claiming that the men are stronger, more dominant, more dependable, more respectable, and more valid. Meanwhile, the women are weaker, submissive because totally Zelda submits to Link, like... ever, amirite?, unreliable, lacking in respectability, and completely invalid. What's the only real discernible, meaningful difference? The chromosomes.

People try to tell me that this kind of mindset is called "feminism", but I'm pretty sure it's called "sexism" or more specifically "misogyny".

3) I could probably make a similarly damning list about MRAs, but they aren't common enough or influential enough for everyone to be sick of them yet. Probably because men don't really have it all that bad and therefore there's very little to complain about and very little traction gained when something complaint-worthy is actually found.

On the other other hand, I can't really ignore gender politics outright, because some of the sexist **** that I see every day is incredibly stupid and it needs to stop. We just... need to seriously stop and consider what is and is not truly "sexist" and actually apply these standards to both genders, instead of merely claiming to in order to cover up the fact that we're being incredibly sexist. There is no "gender equality for men" or "gender equality for women". There's only "gender equality", and it goes both ways. People who don't understand that simply should not be listened to.

... and if anyone doesn't want to read it, go ahead and just move on.

tl;dr: Gender politics, while having some validity, is in general filled with stupidity and stupid claims. Also that video is highly questionable for a couple of reasons.

PS: Honestly I hope they just do to Other M what they tried to do to Prime: Just pretend it's not canon. Even if I don't agree with some of the detractors, I can't really get behind the Ridley freak out being canon.
 

FirestormNeos

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Oh here's a link.

*clicks*

....

Well that was disturbing. It does raise an interesting question though.
One day, you're going to do that and end up seeing a shock site

If Samus was sub to Adam's dom, why is she suddenly going dom with the whips and heels? Apparently Sakurai has a different interpretation of Samus than Sakamoto has.
Now I'm very interested to see how Sakurai handles Samus in Smash 4, Zero Suit or otherwise.

He also makes the point that, if the genders were swapped, this would instead be a horrifyingly terrible femdom story that people would clearly dispise. Weeeeell it's all well and good to claim that, but historically that's not the case. Femdom is actually seen as "pretty hot", and not "horrifyingly abusive" as he claims.

Examples: Rachael Alucard, Bayonetta, Pretty much any dominatrix ever, and the only reason there's even a complaint about Samus's whip and heels is because of the prevalence and general acceptance of the femdom fetish.
Maybe the author wasn't into that kind of thing. Also, what about other mediums? Anyone here a movie buff who's capable of spotting dominatrixs from a mile away?

While I do kinda believe in some points that modern gamer-feminists make, such as the desire for equal or near-equal gender representation (there needs to be some leeway for creativity), I have to point out one thing: It's incredibly hypocritical for feminists to ask for heroines who have roles that are specifically feminine (in order to pull away from the Ms. Man trope), cite motherhood as being such a role that they'd like to see more of, and then suddenly get up in arms when someone actually gives them exactly that.
I might see motherhood work in a role, but not overlaping with whatever else was in Other M. It's just weird and screams "Bad Parenting!"

Now, I'll agree that Other M probably was not the best medium through which to explore these themes, and Nintendo doesn't exactly have a history of respectfully handling potentially pro-female games *coughSuperPrincessPeachcough*, but I can't help but feel like this particular point damages the credibility of the person making the point, along with damaging the credibility of people claiming to want more heroine-mothers to begin with.
If this were Peach in this game instead of Samus, we wouldn't be getting Mario games up the wazoo right now. Just saying.

There are other arguments I could make, but I don't believe that M:OM (I can't unsee it. Thanks random youtuber.) really deserves a strong defense. I will say this about Sakamoto: If we assume the worst case and assume that Sakamoto sees this kind of abusive relationship as healthy, possibly due to how his real relationships are handled, who says he's the Adam of that relationship? Who says he isn't the Samus?


a lot of stuff
^ Everyone shut up. This man speaks truth. ^
 

Shiliski

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Maybe the author wasn't into that kind of thing. Also, what about other mediums? Anyone here a movie buff who's capable of spotting dominatrixs from a mile away?
Xena Onnatop from Goldeneye comes to mind, though she's more sadist than dom.

I can recall a few dominatrices (is that a word?) who were just outright "I am wearing leather and I have a whip", but for some reason I can't recall any names.

Dodgeball had the S&M team.

Oh gee... what else. I know there's more, but none of it's coming to me.
 

FirestormNeos

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Bandwagoner? I'm about as big a Sonic fan as you be, and I think Unleashed is ****ing terrible.
It's a guilty pleasure of mine. The HD version, anyway. The Wii version is perhaps one of two of the only games in the series I've played that I genuinely hate (The other being secret rings. God, that game had terrible control).
 

BloderModer

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I suppose by that logic, R.O.B. using rocket thingy that wasn't there before to hover for his Up-B was completely unnessisary as well. He should just be able to suddenly levitate without any given reason.
You are comparing apples to oranges. ROB was never "fixed" when his character was designed around robotic superpowers.
A better analogy would be giving Mario tiny flamethrower-gloves, since he needs help throwing fireballs, despite being perfectly capable of throwing fireballs in all three smash-games. Zamus was perfectly capable of handling herself in Brawl. If they needed to give her a new recovery-move, they wouldn't need to add the boots.
 

Shiliski

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You are comparing apples to oranges. ROB was never "fixed" when his character was designed around robotic superpowers.
A better analogy would be giving Mario tiny flamethrower-gloves, since he needs help throwing fireballs, despite being perfectly capable of throwing fireballs in all three smash-games. Zamus was perfectly capable of handling herself in Brawl. If they needed to give her a new recovery-move, they wouldn't need to add the boots.
They wouldn't need to not add them either.
 

StupendousMike

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Sonic Unleashed is amazing.
I disagree, but whatever man, follow your bliss. I just don't appreciate the implication that I'm not a "real fan" of a series I've been following since 1992 because I don't like a game in it.

On the subject of Samus's heels, I think a lot of people dislike them for Other M reasons, but I also think the hate for Other M is completely overblown, and mostly unjustified. Comparing it to the broken mess that is Sonic 06? Come on. Other M is a disappointing, mediocre game at most, but it certainly isn't the unplayable, worthless catastrophe the internet hyperbole machine would have you believe it is.
 

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You are comparing apples to oranges. ROB was never "fixed" when his character was designed around robotic superpowers.
A better analogy would be giving Mario tiny flamethrower-gloves, since he needs help throwing fireballs, despite being perfectly capable of throwing fireballs in all three smash-games. Zamus was perfectly capable of handling herself in Brawl. If they needed to give her a new recovery-move, they wouldn't need to add the boots.
But his Up-B is literally him being propelled higher by rocket thruster things. From what I've seen, Samus has the same thing. She can't do that without Rocket SOMETHING. There needs to be an explanation, even if it doesn't make much sense.
 

Shiliski

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I disagree, but whatever man, follow your bliss. I just don't appreciate the implication that I'm not a "real fan" of a series I've been following since 1992 because I don't like a game in it.

On the subject of Samus's heels, I think a lot of people dislike them for Other M reasons, but I also think the hate for Other M is completely overblown, and mostly unjustified. Comparing it to the broken mess that is Sonic 06? Come on. Other M is a disappointing, mediocre game at most, but it certainly isn't the unplayable, worthless catastrophe the internet hyperbole machine would have you believe it is.
I fully agree with the bolded part and it fully applies to me.

Meanwhile: Most people who hate Other M mostly just hate the story. The gameplay is fine.
 
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FirestormNeos

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I disagree, but whatever man, follow your bliss. I just don't appreciate the implication that I'm not a "real fan" of a series I've been following since 1992 because I don't like a game in it.

On the subject of Samus's heels, I think a lot of people dislike them for Other M reasons, but I also think the hate for Other M is completely overblown, and mostly unjustified. Comparing it to the broken mess that is Sonic 06? Come on. Other M is a disappointing, mediocre game at most, but it certainly isn't the unplayable, worthless catastrophe the internet hyperbole machine would have you believe it is.
Of course it's not unplayable, but that doesn't change the fact that two games that are constantly considered the worst installment in their respective franchises have way too much in common. Yes, Other M is playable unlike 06, but it's still considered the worst in the series.
 

TeaTwoTime

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Meanwhile: Most people who hate Other M mostly just hate the story. The gameplay is fine.
This is where I'm at. Save for a few moments, the gameplay is fun as heck in my opinion.
I wouldn't even care about the story not being great if the only issue was cliched and uninspired writing. However, I do care, because there are several story elements that suggest the director's support for attitudes and ideas that I detest. I don't think I really need to expand on this too much as my feelings are widely shared. :ohwell: Adam's character and his relationship with Samus could have and should have been much better and less troubling than it was. The PTSD moment with Ridley doesn't matter much to me at all compared to the game's subtext regarding femininity.

The heel design in Other M bothers me because it represents further unnecessary focus on her femininity and was purposefully left out of Zero Suit Samus' design in Zero Mission. Her Smash Bros design is an extension of this, but as a game that attempts to incorporate elements from its characters' games, I can't fault it for Other M's mistakes. The intention behind the design choices is what matters to me. I see the rocket heels as most likely being a justification for her new, stronger kicking abilities (given to her as compensation for being separated from standard Samus, because for some reason they thought ZSS was weak) that expand on the design (Other M's, which includes heels) that they were told to work with. They look cool (rather than sexy) and have a practical explanation. Rocket boots without heels would be preferable, but all things considered, I don't mind what we got. :)
 

P.J.☆

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Who cares if they're heels, they made ZSS top tier with their range & comfort & versitlity & stylishness
 

Shiliski

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This is where I'm at. Save for a few moments, the gameplay is fun as heck in my opinion.
I wouldn't even care about the story not being great if the only issue was cliched and uninspired writing. However, I do care, because there are several story elements that suggest the director's support for attitudes and ideas that I detest. I don't think I really need to expand on this too much as my feelings are widely shared. :ohwell: Adam's character and his relationship with Samus could have and should have been much better and less troubling than it was. The PTSD moment with Ridley doesn't matter much to me at all compared to the game's subtext regarding femininity.

The heel design in Other M bothers me because it represents further unnecessary focus on her femininity and was purposefully left out of Zero Suit Samus' design in Zero Mission. Her Smash Bros design is an extension of this, but as a game that attempts to incorporate elements from its characters' games, I can't fault it for Other M's mistakes. The intention behind the design choices is what matters to me. I see the rocket heels as most likely being a justification for her new, stronger kicking abilities (given to her as compensation for being separated from standard Samus, because for some reason they thought ZSS was weak) that expand on the design (Other M's, which includes heels) that they were told to work with. They look cool (rather than sexy) and have a practical explanation. Rocket boots without heels would be preferable, but all things considered, I don't mind what we got. :)
Having just recently watched Other M's story in theater mode (I didn't feel like replaying the whole thing for just the cutscenes)...

Other M would not be the first poorly-written story in video games, so I can't really complain about the quality either.

Also, while I encourage the general questioning and criticism of abusive and unhealthy relationships, in fiction or otherwise, I also feel it necessary to have a solid understanding of what a real abusive relationship really looks like, and how it contrasts to Adam's "abuse" of Samus. Consider the following short list: http://www.theredflagcampaign.org/index.php/dating-violence/red-flags-for-abusive-relationships/

It's worth noting that Adam sets off only two of those flags (being physically rough and controlling where Samus goes) one of which he then apologizes for, and the other is just part of following orders. To put this in context, out of the few abusive relationships I've seen, the average one sets about 10-15 of those red flags, with some of the worst setting off all of them.

I understand that apologizing really isn't enough when it comes to abuse, but... the spirit of abuse is "absolute control to such a point where the victim is deeply afraid of showing any sort of failure or defiance", not "stopping you from getting yourself killed."

Not everyone who abuses you will hit you, and not everyone who hits you is abusing you. If Samus saw this list of red flags and compared that list to her relationship with Adam, she would feel perfectly reassured that her relationship was pretty much healthy.

Sure she could've died during the Hell Run, among a great many other times, but Samus has a bad habit of pushing her luck and Adam has a bad habit of letting her. In fact, the last time Adam didn't let Samus push her luck she just outright left him. Considering how cold he was at the start, that must've hurt him quite a bit and it's not surprising that he might want to avoid losing her again. Also, Samus pretty much has no problem challenging or defying Adam whenever she chooses to, and she felt perfectly free to leave him in the backstroy, and she is perfectly capable of functioning without him. Real abusers don't let you leave so easily, and real victims are more likely to have been beaten (physically or emotionally) into a state of severe dependence.

Feel free to look up a few of the many online resources regarding abusive relationships and compare them to the relationship that Samus and Adam have. It's okay if you don't agree with me, but I implore you to consider the words of people who actually deal with and help victims of abuse over the words of a bunch of armchair psychoanalysts. The difference is that the armchairs will tell you that Samus secretly wants that abuse and willfully subjects herself to it, while the experts will probably tell you that this is impossible because no one actually wants to be abused. Victims don't really have a habit of feeling sad that their abusers aren't around to abuse them anymore, and if there are any tears they are usually tears of relief.

That's the dark truth of abuse, and Other M has nothing to do with it. How it regards femininity is another issue entirely and is extremely sticky.


As for ZSS being weak... well... A lot of Samus's power comes from the power suit, so canonically it makes sense that she'd be weaker without it. Putting ZSS on the same level as the power suit kindof makes one wonder "Why even have the power suit? What good does it even do?". Granted, Brawl's tier list seems to indicate that she is better off without it so... lol.

Also, I can now actually look at the PTSD scene as not being all that inaccurate and isn't necessarily inconsistent. The important things to consider are: (A) Samus gained her PTSD when she was a helpless child, so it makes sense that she would relapse to that moment and act like a helpless child. (B) Samus's trigger wasn't Ridley alone, but Ridley being in a position to harm someone that Samus values. As soon as Anthony (who is apparently liked by no one except Samus) is no longer around, Samus immediately gets over her PTSD episode and regains her status as a functioning human being.

It's worth noting that in most cases, Samus only faces Ridley alone, with the main exception being the start of Super Metroid where the baby metroid is more likely to get stolen than murdered. There's more to it than that, but... eh.
 

BloderModer

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But his Up-B is literally him being propelled higher by rocket thruster things. From what I've seen, Samus has the same thing. She can't do that without Rocket SOMETHING. There needs to be an explanation, even if it doesn't make much sense.
Hey, what's the explanation for Marios triple-jump? He just can.

They wouldn't need to not add them either.
No, I don't agree with that. The heels don't fit and look very off.
 
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BaganSmashBros

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Hey, what's the explanation for Marios triple-jump? He just can.
Mario can shoot fire underwater, he grows when he eats a mushroom, turtles and basicly everything else is trying to kill him and can do that by just touching him if he is not big enough, Bowser survives falling into lava, Peach howers somehow, the list goes further than you can comprehend. Mario is not a franchise that cares about logic (if someone ever thought that logic exists in Mario universe/franchise/whatever...he/she is either an idiot or thinks about it too much) and explains how everything works, so, its a bad argument. Its like comparing Kirby to a snake. One of them doesn`t needs explanation how it eats so much without bursting like a baloon.

To those who thinks that Samus doing everything Adam says is bulls**t and purely...um...you know...even through she can just shoot him and go kick more a$$es:
She isn`t supposed to be on Bottle Ship at all. She just arrived and went to do what she wanted. It is like searching for a puppy on a secret military base. So, it is either 'GTFO, Samus." or "Follow my orders and you can stay here.". Or just shoot her, even though it wouldn`t end well for them.

Oh, and look at that:

Why everyone complains about something so minor? Its like complaining about having a very small grey dot on your red car. They are better than at least 90% of heels in fiction.
 
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