Why so much Samus Negativity?

[Eten]

In a game where a large majority of the characters have some quality way of KOing people, it makes Samus feel as if she were very overlooked during development. Really, I have a hard time finding a character with worse KO power- she's right down there with Sonic.

Still, even though I think Gum talks like he never really knew Melee Samus, I think he's on to something when he talks about Samus not being bad. I disagree with him on Samus's KO power, she just does not have it, but he also talks about the charge shot as being really good. So I think maybe Gum has Samus down in a way that gives reason for his difference in attitude- he knows how to use other Samus strengths to make up for the % damage difference and gets that charge shot use in as an amazingly easy to land KO tool.

Because of that, I think I'm going to give Samus a whole other round of playing, just because maybe in the long run I can come back from Samus with a positive attitude.

 

[distr0ia]

Bombs suck? No. Once again, its a tool that people don't use enough because they ASSUME that it sucks just because its different from melee. Bombs ****.

you've got to be kidding me! bombs do not explode immediately on contact anymore, nor can you perform ANY attack after bomb jumping now; you're simply stuck in morph ball form!

these are not opinions, my friend

 

[PK-ow!]

And that is what, maybe a 3rd of the cast? Not even considering some of them wont even be used. Not to mention that MK, Luigi, Kirby, and Wolf early KO moves can be DI'd out of easily. I KO at 100% all the time. This is not even taking into account the fact that she racks up damage fast as hell, so even if you dont KO till 150%, you still got them there in less than a minute. It levels out either way you cut it. Not really an issue.

A third of a population - ESPECIALLY one as small and noise-sensitive as having 35 members - is a HUGE portion, statistically speaking.

Now I would like to hear about these uses of Bomb. No, really. Because I'm hating to put a move on the back-burner.
The only function I see it serving is to tweak Samus' position in the air, onto a ledge or something. The bombjump is a hindrance now. Please tell me I'm wrong. Well, not just tell me - demonstrate something, or even tell me something to try.

 

[Gum]

you've got to be kidding me! bombs do not explode immediately on contact anymore, nor can you perform ANY attack after bomb jumping now; you're simply stuck in morph ball form!

these are not opinions, my friend

A third of a population - ESPECIALLY one as small and noise-sensitive as having 35 members - is a HUGE portion, statistically speaking.

Now I would like to hear about these uses of Bomb. No, really. Because I'm hating to put a move on the back-burner.
The only function I see it serving is to tweak Samus' position in the air, onto a ledge or something. The bombjump is a hindrance now. Please tell me I'm wrong. Well, not just tell me - demonstrate something, or even tell me something to try.

Ok, bombs. I will start by saying that the fact that bombs are timed now is a good thing. In fact, it is great. This is why bombs don't suck.

Have you ever gotten into a tustle with snake after he has just shot a mortor into the air? Normally what will happen is that you will go in close for a grab or something, then boom, the mortor falls on you right in the middle of what you were doing, which completely interrupts you. This is essential how you can use bombs.

A lot of times you can back yourself up by dropping a well placed bomb right before you go in for a combo or while approaching. If you happen to get grabbed or countered, the bomb is right there to explode and interrupt what your opponent was doing to you. What I normally do is use homing missiles to get my opponent to react, then I go in to capitalize on their reaction. Right before I get to them though, I short hop and drop a bomb. If you are successful in your follow up from the missile you will start to combo them and the bomb will blow up on them and add to the damage (bombs do between 5 and 9 damage). If you fail and they shield grab you or something, the bomb still blows up and stops whatever they were doing to counter your attaack. It works wonders. If they were like the old bombs, they would blow up when they got touched, which might not necessarily be when you WANTED it to blow up. The fact that they are timed means that YOU control when they blow up depending on if you know the fuse time in relation to how you want to approach. In short, you can use bombs as a sort of insurance policy. They can cover your *** when you go in for an offensive. This seems to be especially useful against marth.

Also, you will notice that a lot of people like to try to rush down samus when she goes into the air to fire a SH homing missile or zair. They assume that they will get under the missile or zair and be there to punish her. You can use this to your advantage with bombs. Try this. Right before going up for a sh missile or zair, drop a bomb in the air and just let it drop in front of you. Go for the SH HM/Zair. More than likely one of two things will happen:

1) They will notice the bomb, and stay away which is fine for you.

2) They will approach, get hit by the bomb, allowing you to start a combo from the bomb stun.

Contrary to what many believe about smart players, bombs lessen their options and they hit a large percentage of the time. Even if they dont get hit by it, you are still successful if they stay away from it. Like I said, Samus is good at forcing reactions. You just have to know how to take advantage of it.

Another great thing about bombs (other than the fact that they have so much priority that they stop MK's mach tornado) is that the left over puff of explosion has a hitbox, so even if they dont get hit by the initial exposion, they can still run into the end of it. Knowing this helps a LOT.

Check out some of the vids I posted and watch how much I use bombs. I use them a whole lot. You just need to know that they have the ability to stifle your opponent, add almost another ten damage, allow you to set up for combos, in addition to the manueverability options that they give her. Basically, I always have a bomb out. If you short hop and lay the bomb, you dont really need to care that you are stuck in the morph ball. If you drop it on the ground, you can move very fast out of the morph ball upon landing from the pop up.

 

[Pi]

Edgehogging and gimping recoveries isn't nearly as reliable as it was before, much less with competent opponents.

To push them off the stage you need to knock them out in the first place, which Samus isn't very good at.

Marth can gimp recoveries just as well and still manages to KO people at around 70 if he connects his hits well; Metaknight can do so at 90%.

Then we'll just have to make it reliable!

 

[Yorenec]

I honestly haven't really touched Brawl very much in the past two weeks.

That's largely due to lack of time and RL, although I'm not so big on Brawl either right now with Age of Conan coming out next month and various Team Fortress 2 clan matches.

Part of the reason I don't play much Brawl is also due to the new Samus. I do remember how she wasn't so great in Melee's first few years, so I still hold out hope for her being viable, but not so much. As it stands right now though, I just don't see her being a good character, maybe not ever. That really saddens me.

I know though that if there is way to make her good, you people will find it. Keep at it.

Oh yea I also agree with Gum. Bombs being timed now is a mostly good thing IMO.

 

[Bluebottel]

2) They will approach, get hit by the bomb, allowing you to start a combo from the bomb stun.

Stop talking about combos in Brawl, they are a myth or two/three consecutive hits at best.
And i have yet to see those 'proofs' you throw around. Vids or it didnt happen. As for the discussion itself ill use a quote from the C. Falcon guide:
"its not about whats good, its about whats best"

 

[Eten]

It's very easy to add an extra hit combo with bombs. Since they detonate completely separate from Samus's current actions, a simple two-hit combo with the bomb thrown in is just one more hit and 5 to 10% more damage on the consectutive hit counter. Combos are not a myth, they just are complex or long, 2 or 3 consecutive hits are a combo, and the word combo is not misused here.

 

[Koorii]

Stop talking about combos in Brawl, they are a myth or two/three consecutive hits at best.
And i have yet to see those 'proofs' you throw around. Vids or it didnt happen. As for the discussion itself ill use a quote from the C. Falcon guide:
"its not about whats good, its about whats best"

I have vids up. Combos are no myth i assure you. People have so little faith when it comes to brawl.

 

[Gum]

Pssh oops, that post above is mine, I forgot to log out of my friends profile. my bad. Anyways yeah, I definately have vids up.

 

[PK-ow!]

Ok, bombs. I will start by saying that the fact that bombs are timed now is a good thing. In fact, it is great. This is why bombs don't suck.

Have you ever gotten into a tustle with snake after he has just shot a mortor into the air? Normally what will happen is that you will go in close for a grab or something, then boom, the mortor falls on you right in the middle of what you were doing, which completely interrupts you. This is essential how you can use bombs.

[et cetera].

So you're basically saying I can use Bomb like Snake's Grenade, except with the shorter timer, and the fact I can only plant it on Samus' current position, but the opponent can't pick it up.
EDIT: Oh, and it bombjumps you instead of killing you, of course.

Hmm. I'll think about that.

I have doubts about how good this can be (from the restrictions on placement), but you have demonstrated a way of even conceiving how to use them. Thanks. Umm.. you could have made the post smaller though - you didn't really say much.

So, where are your vids? General vid thread, Ctrl-F 'Gum'?

 

[JettythatSamus]

Check out some of the vids I posted and watch how much I use bombs. I use them a whole lot.

gum link me to some of your vids

 

[Gum]

So you're basically saying I can use Bomb like Snake's Grenade, except with the shorter timer, and the fact I can only plant it on Samus' current position, but the opponent can't pick it up.
EDIT: Oh, and it bombjumps you instead of killing you, of course.

Hmm. I'll think about that.

I have doubts about how good this can be (from the restrictions on placement), but you have demonstrated a way of even conceiving how to use them. Thanks. Umm.. you could have made the post smaller though - you didn't really say much.

So, where are your vids? General vid thread, Ctrl-F 'Gum'?

Yeah thats pretty much how you can use them. If you see you opponent get hit by it, run in and take advantage of it. Sorry about the long post. I just like to be a specific as possible. Heres a link to my vids: http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=162459

Be sure to watch them all though. Im gonna have some other vids up soon as well.

 

[Jing)]

If everyone stops whining about nerfs and how shes going to be low or medium tier and focuses on how to develope her with a positive mindset samus could be awsome... Look at Hylian, he's already awsome with Samus, ive seen like 4 videos of him lose out of like 15 and they are all vs good people and usually theyre using chars thatre generally classified as pretty good

 

[Da N]

If everyone stops whining about nerfs and how shes going to be low or medium tier and focuses on how to develope her with a positive mindset samus could be awsome... Look at Hylian, he's already awsome with Samus, ive seen like 4 videos of him lose out of like 15 and they are all vs good people and usually theyre using chars thatre generally classified as pretty good

Yeah i mean come on, can we stop focusing on the negative aspects of her game and start looking at the positives, you know stuff that can actually get us closer to good samus players

 

[Gum]

Finally some people who are open minded. sheesh, its an uphill battle.

 

[GimmeAnFSharp]

I feel everyone on the smashboards are so offensive and combo oriented. Sure, Samus can't kill consistently and easily against someone of equal skill (or greater) until 150% without a lucky Charge Shot or a REALLY well placed bair or dair; but what if the key to Samus was making it the same situation for your opponents (ie defensive; she does have a bit of weight to her)? I have noticed that Samus, although extremely difficult to play 1v1, makes an excellent 2v2 partner... she won't be making the KO's, but she'll certainly usually outlive and outdamage her partner when used correctly.

 

[Corigames]

Finally some people who are open minded. sheesh, its an uphill battle.

Yes, because the only open-minded people are those who agree with you. Coincidence?

 

[Gum]

No dude. Im just talking about people who are willing to dig deeper to find good things . They dont have to agree with me on anything, but at least not put her on the back burner just because she has a tougher learning curve.

 

[Jing)]

he means more people that just try to focus on developing then the bad parts of samus.. i doubt she'll end up bad, i mean, she has a lot of weird stuff.. the way a lot of samus players use her is entirely different then any other character so basically she has an expanded moveset (zair.. ALL her stuff is useful to a good extent)

 

[Jing)]

She is not more complicated to play now. Her game has been simplified because her moveset isn't as effective as it was before. You are now limited to a certain number of moves in given situations. Winning boils down to zair spamming, tilting, missiling, occasional uair/fair/upB combos, and landing that one KO move at 140 + %.

She's not the same samus she was. Really.

140 is a bit exaggerated... i finish at 110-125% allll the time and occasionally vs a super light char like jigly even 100% ish..

 

[Corigames]

he means more people that just try to focus on developing then the bad parts of samus.. i doubt she'll end up bad, i mean, she has a lot of weird stuff.. the way a lot of samus players use her is entirely different then any other character so basically she has an expanded moveset (zair.. ALL her stuff is useful to a good extent)

Yes, and Samus in melee had a lot of "weird stuff." Super wave dash, extended grapple, reverse platform grapple, third jump, grapple cancel, wave bombing, Platform Missile Canceling, reverse inside wall jump (at least, that's what it looked like), and stock cancel-canceling. I probably missed even more if someone got down to it.

Samus had a whole arsenal of weird stuff to do, and it took talent to pull a lot of it off! The sad part is that with general changes to the engine and extremely gimping a lot of her attacks, you can't do a major portion of her play style if you had any mind games at all. She doesn't play like Samus, and I think veterans should be angry that her only viable move is now hitting people with the tip of the grapple. That's not Samus. Samus is the missile launching, laser blasting, strong, sexy, fast, powerful, best bounty hunter in the universe, and you are telling me her best move in this game is her recovery move used on someone instead of grabbing an edge? That bites!

So, I have to disagree with the whole "no negativity" thing. While it may not be making her game any stronger by complaining, I don't see why people who played her in any game before it, including other smash titles, can't whine about it for a good, long while.

 

[Gum]

Yes, and Samus in melee had a lot of "weird stuff." Super wave dash, extended grapple, reverse platform grapple, third jump, grapple cancel, wave bombing, Platform Missile Canceling, reverse inside wall jump (at least, that's what it looked like), and stock cancel-canceling. I probably missed even more if someone got down to it.

Samus had a whole arsenal of weird stuff to do, and it took talent to pull a lot of it off! The sad part is that with general changes to the engine and extremely gimping a lot of her attacks, you can't do a major portion of her play style if you had any mind games at all. She doesn't play like Samus, and I think veterans should be angry that her only viable move is now hitting people with the tip of the grapple. That's not Samus. Samus is the missile launching, laser blasting, strong, sexy, fast, powerful, best bounty hunter in the universe, and you are telling me her best move in this game is her recovery move used on someone instead of grabbing an edge? That bites!

So, I have to disagree with the whole "no negativity" thing. While it may not be making her game any stronger by complaining, I don't see why people who played her in any game before it, including other smash titles, can't whine about it for a good, long while.

And once again, this is what pisses me off. Zair is NOT her best move. Its great, of course, but it ties in with her moveset perfectly. People really need to admit the fact that in reality, Samus doesnt have a single bad move. You are comparing things to Melee when you shouldn't be. Brawl is a completely new game, so treat her in that context. Obviousley, If you put Brawl samus in melee, she would get ***** all around, but in Brawl she is essentiall yjust different as hell. You can still use missiles, you can still use her blaster, you can still use her bombs, her moves string together beautifully, and she still has great recovery. Lets face it, the only significant downside is that she can't kill at 80%, but think about this: they gave her zero lag on all her aerials, they gave her zair, they gave her great recovery and they still made her heavy. If they would have made her a kill machine on top of all that, people would then be complaining that she was broken. To balance out her "inability" to ko, why not just play her like the beast that she is and rack up so much damage so much faster than your opponent that you might as well have Ko'd them at 80%. She can KO at 120% which is pretty **** good, so really there isn't much of a problem. Its all in the head. Use the speed of her non lag attacks, and her great spacing, set up with projectiles, use zair as much as you want, combo your opponent to like 120 to 130%, mind game a forward smash in there and get a KO. She's amazing.

 

[HugS]

he means more people that just try to focus on developing then the bad parts of samus.. i doubt she'll end up bad, i mean, she has a lot of weird stuff.. the way a lot of samus players use her is entirely different then any other character so basically she has an expanded moveset (zair.. ALL her stuff is useful to a good extent)

Yeah because anyone who has noticed the short comings of Samus hasn't bothered focusing on developing samus, right? That's what you're saying?

140 is a bit exaggerated... i finish at 110-125% allll the time and occasionally vs a super light char like jigly even 100% ish..

Play me. I do this thing called DI, it makes it so that I don't die at 110-125%, not even by Ike, and sometimes not even by snake. So, you'll be able to kill people like me with samus at 110% all the time, right?

140% is not an exaggeration.

 

[Gum]

your exactly right about DI, which surprisingly enough does work even against heavy hitters, which is why it's not really a gripe with me that she doesn't KO quick as hell. I mean it can get frustrating if you go past like 200%, but ****, Its Brawl. this game is ridiculous in general.

 

[HugS]

your exactly right about DI, which surprisingly enough does work even against heavy hitters, which is why it's not really a gripe with me that she doesn't KO quick as hell. I mean it can get frustrating if you go past like 200%, but ****, Its Brawl. this game is ridiculous in general.

Why wouldn't that be a gripe with you?

Let's say a heavy hitter couldn't kill you with DI until 180% and samus couldn't kill you till about 220%.

Your defense for her lack of KO options is that a samus can rack up damage to about 180% before you even reach 100%. Well, by the time you rack up enough damage to KO a good DIer (at 220%), theoretically, wouldn't you be at a ripe dying percentage as well?

 

[Gum]

Well yeah If that were the case, but that is rarely ever the case. For the most part BOTH players are around for a while, but If you look for it, you can most definitely get a kill before them, simply because 1. you got the damage to do so really quickly, and 2) they were not looking for it. And also, racking up damage to 180% is hardly what i said. 120% - 150% is a much more reasonable damage to go for with the KO using her quick damage building.

 

[Corigames]

It's very hard to kill someone when you are the one flying around the map though. Especially when you are at 150% and they are at 100%. Every time you get in close, you get knocked... far... away. Then you have to work your way back to the stage and try again. It sucks. She sucks. That's a cold hard fact. If you find a way to make her do her final smash without turning into ZSS, then you may have something on your hands.

 

[Gum]

If you go flying everytime you get in close, then you need to work on your approaches, spacing, and everything else that goes into being good at this game. Thats not the character's fault, thats you as the player.

 

[Corigames]

Yes, because we all know that the best tactic is to not get hit. When you ACE me in a game, then you can leave that post up. As for now, I suggest you use the "edit" button and say something like, "Characters don't suck, players do." Then I can flame you for being a smash n00b who believes Brawl is all equal.

 

[Jing)]

Yeah because anyone who has noticed the short comings of Samus hasn't bothered focusing on developing samus, right? That's what you're saying?



Play me. I do this thing called DI, it makes it so that I don't die at 110-125%, not even by Ike, and sometimes not even by snake. So, you'll be able to kill people like me with samus at 110% all the time, right?

140% is not an exaggeration.

no but theres no point wasting time *****ing...

 

[Da Illlest]

I usually second samus to luigi. At first i wuz very disappointed and after countlessly not holding R to play zamus i ended up on samus. It was frustrating and annoying, cuz my game in melee was missling spamming and utilt ne1 approaching above. But after trying her out for sometime, I actually dont think shes that bad. Just a very differnt samus. She still hard to kill and can almsot recover from newhere and you cant really edge guard her. Her missles dont knock people back but its great for approaching for a grab or combo. And her edgeguarding is still very good, which i find myself keeping opponents off the sides of the stage. Dont let some of these pros discourage you, just make your own style samus and figure it out.

 

[Gum]

Yes, because we all know that the best tactic is to not get hit. When you ACE me in a game, then you can leave that post up. As for now, I suggest you use the "edit" button and say something like, "Characters don't suck, players do." Then I can flame you for being a smash n00b who believes Brawl is all equal.

I didnt say brawl was all equal now did I? No I didn't, but the scenario you gave included "everytime you get close" you get knocked away and go flying, and "its hard to kill someone when you are flying around the map, which suggest that that is you the entire match. If you suck at approaching or evasion then yeah, maybe that would happen. Thats doesnt mean your not gonna get hit every, thats not what Im saying, but everytime? something is wrong and its not Samus. You suggest? And who the hell are you? Don't make stupid emphatic comments and you woudnt get responses like that. What you gave sounded like a tactical issue and not a character issue.

 

[Da N]

why does it matter if she can't KO till unusually high percentages if you can get them to those high percenteges one minute into the game.

You guys are focusing too much on her negatives that your making her sound worse than she really is. Just becuase you guys say shes worse than in melee isnt going to make people stop playing her, and i bet there are a lot of people that will get crazy good with her.

 

[distr0ia]

Yes, and Samus in melee had a lot of "weird stuff." Super wave dash, extended grapple, reverse platform grapple, third jump, grapple cancel, wave bombing, Platform Missile Canceling, reverse inside wall jump (at least, that's what it looked like), and stock cancel-canceling. I probably missed even more if someone got down to it.

Samus had a whole arsenal of weird stuff to do, and it took talent to pull a lot of it off! The sad part is that with general changes to the engine and extremely gimping a lot of her attacks, you can't do a major portion of her play style if you had any mind games at all. She doesn't play like Samus, and I think veterans should be angry that her only viable move is now hitting people with the tip of the grapple. That's not Samus. Samus is the missile launching, laser blasting, strong, sexy, fast, powerful, best bounty hunter in the universe, and you are telling me her best move in this game is her recovery move used on someone instead of grabbing an edge? That bites!

So, I have to disagree with the whole "no negativity" thing. While it may not be making her game any stronger by complaining, I don't see why people who played her in any game before it, including other smash titles, can't whine about it for a good, long while.

WORD.

that being said, I am still playing her from time to time even though I've unofficially dropped her as my main. it's funny; despite the fact that she can't do half of what she could before, I still sort of feel at home when I pick her (probably the result of picking her nontstop for years)

haha I recall Hugs saying something like "I'm married to the b*tch and I couln't quit her now if I wanted". I'm seriously in the same boat

 

[Eten]

Yeah. I've said "screw it, I'm not putting up with this, I'm going to play someone else" and supposedly she isn't my main.
But she still gets played more than anyone else.

 

[Corigames]

I think GUM doesn't have the essence of Samus. Maybe that's what's wrong.

 

[Gum]

I think GUM doesn't have the essence of Samus. Maybe that's what's wrong.

Even though I dont have a problem with her? pssh whatever man, you are truly backwards. But why do I care, Samus is just fine to me so **** all the nonsense.

 

[slikvik]

Tournament results is pretty much the only thing that matters. Gum, maybe you should go win a "smashboards" tournament with samus and post the results. Until then, samus sux

 

[Gum]

sure man, whatever you say. I got a tourney this saturday and one next saturday, and I plan on winning both.