Why people are upset, and what Sakurai could have done

[ElFreakinCid]

One thing Sakurai could've done is not ignore the huge number of fans who wanted Krystal to be playable. That way, more people would be satisfied, the 3rd Star Fox character wouldn't just be another Fox clone, and they would've at least somewhat kept their "more female characters" promise.

 

[Magmar's Wrath]

I so hate it that whenever people so much as mention Krystal, like say one in a five-paragraph post, the only part that the other side will quote is when he mentions Krystal, call him a furry and pervert, and then act like he won the arguement.

Seriously, it's hideous how the opposition reacts to Krystal. The last post in Krystal's support thread on the Character Discussion thread calls her a skank, the fans furries, and makes vulgar mentions of her female features.

People act so indignant when you even at the slightest mention Geno, Ridley, and/or Krystal, even if it's just the signature. Even if this website hyped them up, they're not the singular reason most of us are upset.

 

[ElFreakinCid]

I'm getting sick of that kind of thing too. No matter where I go, I can't so much as MENTION Krystal without someone calling me names and bashing Krystal...

 

[Demon-oni]

See, this kind of STFU attitude is what stifles a forum's ability to provide open discussion. The TC raised some legitimate points in a well thought out (if somewhat long) post and few are willing to address him on them, instead opting to throw out the tired "If you don't like it, go make your own!" argument. You don't have to be a chef to know when something has gone bad.

Yeah, but until You can make and program games of this caliber, don't go flaming the guy who makes them so we can hopefully have another one in the future.

 

[firedragon_jing]

Thank you guys who supported this thread, and didn't just bash.

But let me tell you guys now, I didn't create this thread for support of bashing, I created it for constructive critiscism and thought out inputs. I want to people to lend me their ideas and not just what I see out of this, whether you agree or not, just give reasons, and don't be afraid of others pointing out faults.

 

[Demon-oni]

The thing you don't have a grasp on is Nintendo quite frankly doesn't give a **** what the western world suggests. Their base of operations, everything they aim to do is generally in Japan. We have Solid Snake and Sonic in a first party Nintendo game. He said up front there will only be 2-3 third party characters. This is just another case of somebody whose "bestest character" didn't get in. You can stay in your room and make more movesets while the rest of us play Brawl. And Wolf is based on Fox, not a direct clone. Think Mario to Luigi.

Finally, we have a smart one. ^_^

 

[MilesPrower]

There's one thing that not a lot of people understand, and I'm stating it now, not really directed to anyone in particular.




Sakurai might have been doing it for "the fans", but he also works for Nintendo, who is doing it for "the money".



It's his job to make a game that appeals to us so that we'll buy it and make Nintendo money.



I've seen so many "It's a gift to us" comments I'm sick of it. That's not the way the real marketplace works.








Really.


It's NOT a gift to us. It's not like it's free, therefore, I don't have to take it or spend my money on it.


I am, though. I've come to terms with the evil inside, although I never really opposed it.


But really, 3 of the same FSes?

Come on man....

That's just ridiculously hilarious, I shall cry myself to sleep.
I am Crying Sleeping Spiny of the 168th Gate.
Do you fear to take me down?


(I'm serious about the whole money thing though.)

 

[drengist]

There are some things that I'm very disappointed in (smallish roster, Ganondorf's a clone etc...), but we certainly got more good things. We have online play, stage builder, video recording, SSE, more stages and lots of awesome newcomers. Next month hardly nobody cares to complain.

 

[S2]

Sakurai did add a ridiculous amount of content to the game.

Fans are just never happy. They don't understand the concept that at some point you can't keep adding content. YOu have to release the game so that you actually make a profit on it.

 

[Genjy]

Also consider that quite a bit of fighting games have "clones." Street Fighter is a great example. My friends and I use the term "standard bros." for all the characters that are basically Ryu in a different costume, or with some remodelling. Ryu, Ken, Akuma, Sakura, and Sagat instantly come to mind. There are others I'm sure but I'm not going to go look through every character to find the clones. Soul Calibur also comes to mind, Cassandra and Sophitia, Nightmare and Siegfried, Mitsurugi and Yoshimitsu (a joke clone but still a clone by my standards), Kilik and Seung Mina (or however they spell it these days.) I'm sure everyone else can think of other situations of attack of the clones, but realize it's a part of fighting games, and it hardly seems like it will slow down. I have no problem with clones as long as there is some playing differences among them. Whether it be range, speed, power, or whatever else, as long as there is enough change to appeal to certain playing styles I suppose? In melee, I am god awful as Link, but I play a much better game as Y.Link. I prefer his speed over what feels to me like Link's old age making him sluggish.
And in regards to the FS being half-*****, that is pretty disappointing, but it's not going to change no matter how loud we scream. Maybe close your eyes when a clone is doing their's and picture the FS you would envision for them.

Blah blah blah, here's a short version:
It sucks that theirs attack of the clones, but it's a part of fighting games. They could have at least made FS's unique like other games do. At least it's still a great fighting game.

 

[GenG]

The 4 special moves aren't the whole movesets. Smash characters have roughly 13 normal moves, 4 throws and 4 specials. Wolf only shares with Fox the main gist of his specials (which are also different, at least the blaster has more in common with Zero Samus' than Fox'), but the normal moves are totally different. It's more different from Fox than Falco is.

Did you know that MK has the same throws as Kirby?

Why people make 4 half-***** special moves and they believe they have made a whole moveset?

 

[Heflito]

I agree there are reasons to be upset but they don't outnumber the good things about the game. Also upset or not don't go flaming Sakurai, without him there wouldn't be the game in the first place, he was clearly under more stress than we know. Also I everyone was complaining about Isaac and Geno, I can't seem to match those names with faces someone care to help me out?

 

[SonicSmash001]

You all are ******** as hell and ****ing stupid. Sakurai creates a website solely for the fans, updating it EVERY DAY with new information. He even goes as far as adding in characters that fans were asking for. How many companies have done this? And yet here you are; *****ing because your most ridiculous assumption that a specific character you wanted in the game isn't there; simply because you thought that character would fit in the game. Well **** yourself; he added many great and amazing characters and I hope many of you never get this game and truly enjoy it.

Agreed, you guys are a bunch of whining *******s...

 

[Nasanieru]

I can't believe how selfish and stupid these people are! Do they actually think that Sakurai made this game specifically for them? HE DIDN'T. This is Sakurai's game, his project, his masterpiece. We don't care if you don't buy it/like it, your loss, our gain.
There is more to the game than the roster! If you fail to realize this do us all a favor and delete your account on the boards!!

 

[tarmacker]

Once again the TC did not make this topic to complain that his favorite characters did not make it into the game. I for one got more or less all the characters I wanted to see in the game. I agree with the TC I'm still going to buy the game, I'm going to enjoy it and have a lot of fun with it until the next *crosses fingers* SSB game comes out, but I am a little disappointed in the roster. We got a ton of new features, but in a year or two not many people will be playing SSE but be playing what has been the highpoint of the past smash games, multiplayer, and thats where the character roster is important.

 

[Gilgamesh]

Wolfs not a clone, STOP PRETENDING HE IS.

Ehm ok, let me adress this, as i've seen it thrown around in many different threads.

Like it or not, Wolf, Toon Link, Falco, and Ganondorf -are- clones. Each spawned from his original character's base and were heavily modified and its moves reworked to make them unique. A perfect example of this was wolf, in which they made such an excellent work, he's almost an all-new character (besides the lame copied Final Smash).

You don't have to be exactly like the other character to be a clone in smash. Heck, Roy and Marth were obviously clones yet they had many differences, just look at their different places in the tier list. Sure, the clones in brawl seem to have more work put into them, but they're still clones after all.

So, are clones a bad thing!? No, not at all!!! Sure, maybe 100% original chars might have been better, but that's a lot of work for the development team. I myself welcome the clones, since they have enough differences now: I'll play Toon Link over regular link since i liked his design more, and he's faster. I'll play Wolf since i don't like either fox or falco and i always preferred Ganondorf over Falcon. Besides being a way to make character creation easier, clones provide more variables to a "base" kind of character, and that's nice for me.

 

[LinkGadra]

Yeah, but until You can make and program games of this caliber, don't go flaming the guy who makes them so we can hopefully have another one in the future.

There's a large difference between flaming and constructive criticism. The former usually insults the target without giving any reason for doing so, while the latter usually takes some valid points of contention and offers suggestions about how to fix them.

I can't believe how selfish and stupid these people are! Do they actually think that Sakurai made this game specifically for them? HE DIDN'T. This is Sakurai's game, his project, his masterpiece. We don't care if you don't buy it/like it, your loss, our gain.
There is more to the game than the roster! If you fail to realize this do us all a favor and delete your account on the boards!!

While it's true there are some people who think Brawl is their 'entitlement' and make stupid complaints, most of the people who are not completely satisfied with the roster in this thread don't fall into that category. Many of them have echoed the TC's comments about how they will still buy and enjoy Brawl when it gets here.

As for your second point, while there is more to the game than whose in it, for a fighting game the roster is extremely important. Do you think the original Smash would have done so well if there were a bunch of no-name characters jumping around? If that were the case, we may not even be having this discussion, as there would be no Brawl.

 

[firedragon_jing]

Ok, again for the game being Sakurai's, if you don't understand economics please get out of this thread, is all about the customer and building up demand to increase supply. If he upsets his customers, they won't want to buy as much, but the problem with big franchises is people will buy them anyway no matter how upset they are at one aspect, just because of the rest. No one will care about SSE in a year, but they will care about multi-player, online play, and most importantly the roster.

 

[AllanT]

my question is:

what happened to the whole "40+ characters" thing?

I mean the roster is.... well it's okay.... i just don't know how they were able to pull off putting R.O.B. in the game...... lol.....

 

[MetaNiGHTs]

Ok. How many people honestly liked the Melee roster at first. It was horrible. But then it dawned on people overtime how great the roster was. I think we need to stop bashing each other and think about how you will feel if you find out that you really enjoy R.O.B or Toon Link.

 

[SolidSonic]

I can't believe how selfish and stupid these people are! Do they actually think that Sakurai made this game specifically for them? HE DIDN'T. This is Sakurai's game, his project, his masterpiece. We don't care if you don't buy it/like it, your loss, our gain.
There is more to the game than the roster! If you fail to realize this do us all a favor and delete your account on the boards!!

This thread is filled with foolish posts like this one.

Dam I'm beginning to think this forums age demographic is a bit to low for me to be here. The 11 year old excuses and emotional flaming might fly in a junior high debate club, but in the real world you need to use critical thinking skills.

 

[PrettyGoodYear]

Also consider that quite a bit of fighting games have "clones." Street Fighter is a great example. My friends and I use the term "standard bros." for all the characters that are basically Ryu in a different costume, or with some remodelling. Ryu, Ken, Akuma, Sakura, and Sagat instantly come to mind. There are others I'm sure but I'm not going to go look through every character to find the clones. Soul Calibur also comes to mind, Cassandra and Sophitia, Nightmare and Siegfried, Mitsurugi and Yoshimitsu (a joke clone but still a clone by my standards), Kilik and Seung Mina (or however they spell it these days.) I'm sure everyone else can think of other situations of attack of the clones, but realize it's a part of fighting games, and it hardly seems like it will slow down. I have no problem with clones as long as there is some playing differences among them. Whether it be range, speed, power, or whatever else, as long as there is enough change to appeal to certain playing styles I suppose? In melee, I am god awful as Link, but I play a much better game as Y.Link. I prefer his speed over what feels to me like Link's old age making him sluggish.
And in regards to the FS being half-*****, that is pretty disappointing, but it's not going to change no matter how loud we scream. Maybe close your eyes when a clone is doing their's and picture the FS you would envision for them.

Blah blah blah, here's a short version:
It sucks that theirs attack of the clones, but it's a part of fighting games. They could have at least made FS's unique like other games do. At least it's still a great fighting game.

I'm sick to death of this argument. I'm ok with clones, I have no beef with Young Link. But where this argument fails is that both Ryu and Ken originated in Street Fighter. Ganondorf originated in Zelda, Captain Falcon in F-Zero. Ganondorf is the MAIN villain in one of Nintendo's main series. Sakurai failed to realize is that making Ganondorf a clone of Falcon is like making Bowser a clone of Ness.

 

[firedragon_jing]

I think it's sorta funny the ones supporting the roster, bash and flame others and wirte in ways that makes fool of themselves, while the ones still going on about it give intelligent views on the matter. Shows what age you are most sheep like.

 

[Heflito]

I think it's sorta funny the ones supporting the roster, bash and flame others and wirte in ways that makes fool of themselves, while the ones still going on about it give intelligent views on the matter. Shows what age you are most sheep like.

Even though I am actually rather content with the final roster, I have to say I am quite dissapointed with my peers, their collective vocabulary seems on par with a Jr. High student at best with every word containing *. And while I see the points you're making and they are valid. However I don't agree with calling Sakurai lazy. He made some poor decisions but he was not lazy, he did the best he could not having been informed before the game was anounced.

 

[Cygnus V Arcana]

This thread is filled with foolish posts like this one.

Dam I'm beginning to think this forums age demographic is a bit to low for me to be here. The 11 year old excuses and emotional flaming might fly in a junior high debate club, but in the real world you need to use critical thinking skills.

Kind of ironic since the real world to alot of people are internet forums *cough stupid Cough

 

[Dardrax]

I think it's sorta funny the ones supporting the roster, bash and flame others and wirte in ways that makes fool of themselves, while the ones still going on about it give intelligent views on the matter. Shows what age you are most sheep like.

Your "intelligent" views are nothing more then ignorance and the unwillingness to accept change, and obviously biased. I'll work on reverse engineering Brawl for you though, holler at me in 10 years.

 

[Rusty Shacklefurd]

My only-ONLY-dissappointment was lack of Metroid characters. Give me a Samus clone modelled as Dark Samus(With her different forms for costumes) or a Charizard clone for Ridley and I would have been fine with that. I was just really hoping for one of them to make the cut. Besides that, great roster, great game, great everything, lessQQmoarPEWPEW!

 

[Magmar's Wrath]

Your "intelligent" views are nothing more then ignorance and the unwillingness to accept change, and obviously biased. I'll work on reverse engineering Brawl for you though, holler at me in 10 years.

It's obvious you don't read the posts, you're just being rude.

I am so darn sick of people saying, "Stop whining!" What, if we don't fall on our knees and worship the roster, we're whiny children who are ignorant and hate change?

This is getting pointless. The more we try to intelligently debate why the roster is upsetting, the ruder and more insulting the other side gets. They're even cursing us out.

Why do you people take this so offensively?! You didn't make the game, stop acting like we're offending you!

 

[flyinfilipino]

The thing is, there are way too many threads about this complaining, which is generally pointless, and there are more important things to talk about.

 

[PrettyGoodYear]

My only-ONLY-dissappointment was lack of Metroid characters. Give me a Samus clone modelled as Dark Samus(With her different forms for costumes) or a Charizard clone for Ridley and I would have been fine with that. I was just really hoping for one of them to make the cut. Besides that, great roster, great game, great everything, lessQQmoarPEWPEW!

Update for Ridley:

Is this... is this Ridley?

Yes, Ridley from the Metroid series finally makes his appearance!

Though he might seem similar to the Pokemon Trainer's Charizard, he is quite different.

His Up Special doesn't cover him in flames, but it takes him a farther distance than Charizard's.

For his Side Special, he takes the Metroid hatchling's empty capsule and smashes it. This is different from Charizard's Rock Smash as it is faster, and it's easier to hit your opponents, but it's not as strong.

Is Ridley breathing fire?

Actually, that's Ridley's Plasma Breath. It doesn't have as much knockback as Charizards Flamethrower, but it traps opponents to rack up damage!

And Down Special, Kraid change!

Use it to change into Kraid!

 

[Magmar's Wrath]

The thing is, there are way too many threads about this complaining, which is generally pointless, and there are more important things to talk about.

Okay. Like what? What's there to talk about a fighting game besides the fighters?

The reason some of here are getting bitter is that most who disagree with us are very rude, condescending, and acting like they are the moral authority.

 

[flyinfilipino]

Okay. Like what? What's there to talk about a fighting game besides the fighters?

The reason some of here are getting bitter is that most who disagree with us are very rude, condescending, and acting like they are the moral authority.

How about the game itself?

 

[Black/Light]

I actually think the age level of anyone calling Sakurai "lazy" for making Luigi-ed characters is probly lower than that of those who support the roster but in a rant-ish manner. Really, Sakurai isn't lazy and he worked himself sick for his vision.

Really, Im content with the roster even if not one new comer I was pulling for (oter than sonic) got in. My melee main (Falco) has been de-cloned to atleast Luigi level and now we have Wolf who is loosely based on Fox but to the point where I don't think he could even be called a Luigi char (fare too different imo). Thats good. . .I would have prefered Krystal but W/E, both SF and the roster needed a villian added.

Same FS for each. . .I will say that that is abit lack-luster but oh well, it's not like I plan to use FS all the time and most characters have basically very simular FS attacks ( Pitt and D3/ Lucario and Samus/ Mario and PT/ Sonic and Pika/ Ike and Link/ Link and Marth/ etc etc)

The SSB series has NEVER had a roster that revoled purely around fans so why expect it now? It's Sakurai's vision. . . hell, the head man of Nintendo wanted more 3rd party characters but left it to him to because he was the head man of the project.

Time and time again I look around and it seems like people only cared about characters or the number of characters. Seems like alot of people just wanted Melee part 2 which is what they would have gotten had Sakurai not been on the case. "Its not the number, its the characters people don't agree with" well sure, I would prefer unique Midna over Toon Link/ Staff used Krystal over Wolf/ Masked man over Ness's return/ Hell, I would have prefered Marina over R.O.B. as the"WTF?!? Robotic character?!?".

But thats just it, I would have prefered these things. . . doesn't mean theres anymore merit or reason to have them over said characters. Many wanted Geno. . .a 3rd party character from one Mario game years ago who happened to have been in 4-5 replies Sakurai made on a pretty random journey (it's said he just replied once every 10 pages about something on the 10th page from his last reply). Many wanted Krystal who isn't as important to the series as Wolf (coming from a Krystal fan).

In place of all the things we all wanted we have gotten many other great things we may not have expected (PT "AKA the 3 RBY starters"/ Lucario/ Ness's return/ Wolf/ Zero/ Ike/ SNAKE/ R.O.B/ A full on story mode/ many new features/ new skills like FSs, Wall clanging, gliding, crawling and stuff like stage builder and ATs) along with some things we wanted (Sonic/ D3/ Mk/ Pitt/ Diddy/ Wario/ Lucas/ Olimar/ Toon Link/ the de-cloneing of clones to atleast Luigi's level).

So really, we should be happy that we now get to play one of the greatest games of this gen and just hope to the Nintendo goddess that they make a full cross over KH like RPG game with their characters (even just a KH game with Nintendo cross overs would be a good thing looking at SSE).

 

[Dardrax]

It's obvious you don't read the posts, you're just being rude.

I am so darn sick of people saying, "Stop whining!" What, if we don't fall on our knees and worship the roster, we're whiny children who are ignorant and hate change?

This is getting pointless. The more we try to intelligently debate why the roster is upsetting, the ruder and more insulting the other side gets. They're even cursing us out.

Why do you people take this so offensively?! You didn't make the game, stop acting like we're offending you!

No. This is totally wrong and the blatant ignorance I talked about. Don't get me wrong- I'd be overjoyed if each and every character was unique. I would love if Geno was in. But the fact of the matter is that we're not creating the game. Oh, so three characters have the same final smash? Well I'll go play the deep single player mode then. And if you're one of the tournament types, wouldn't final smashes be turned off anyways? I see where you're coming from, but calling this a screw-up, laziness, and generally not caring is wrong. Could he have done better? Sure, but there's always human error. He's not perfect, nor are me or you perfect. Every game has it's flaws, and this is just a minor one on an already fantastic roster. Like many people have said before- it's a step up from Melee, what else can you ask for?

And you are far from offending me, I guess I'm just pregidous against dumb posts like this.

 

[flyinfilipino]

And also, Magmar's Wrath, who is the character you (will be) play the most as? Would you be using any of the characters that are bothering you, changed moveset or not? Just out of curiosity.

 

[Heflito]

I think Black/Light just summed up this side of the argument. I don't feel there is much more to say. Everyone has said what they feel and frankly this continuing argument gets us no where.

 

[Smash_Gigas]

Well, quite a bit of critical thinking here. Not exactly my best subject, but it seems like some of the bickering comes from individuals who are intolerable of other's thoughts/opinions. No, I'm not accusing one side or another, nor any specific names for that fact, both viewpoints have some people like that. And yes, it does become a problem when the forums are being flooded with threads grasping at eachother's throats. Debates, or conflicts, whatever you wanna call it just requires a little patience. I know, easier said than done, but I don't hear people complaining about how there's no wavedashing or sucky roster in Super Smash Bros. 64 anymore, if you know what I mean. A lot of effort is being put into a disagreement that will quickly disolve in time.

EDIT: Agreed to the post above me