Why not drill multi shine?

[Tyr_03]

So my friend has learned to keep his shield up after I Dair rather than shieldgrabbing me so I don't hit him with my shine. This annoys me a lot for when I do a bad approach that gets shielded.

So a thought came to me to possibly fix this. I've recently been working on multishines and I thought couldn't I just do a double shine after Dair to hit an opponent who shields? Even if they don't shield and I hit with the first shine I ought to be able to wavedash after the second losing only a few frames of time? It's really hard to pull off but it seems like it might be a good option to work on. I know sometimes people JC a grab after shines to avoid it but I would think it'd be faster (and maybe more useful?) to shine.

Anyhow, what do you guys think? Is this useful or a complete waste of time?

 

[Miharu]

It's fine, but the essentially does the same thing as dair -> shine, except you hit them with the second shine if they attempt to shielgrab/whatever after the first one. However, you still have the issue of following it up, so you might as well learn aerial -> shine -> JC grab.

 

[Tyr_03]

well yeah. I was thinking more for opponents like Link or Captain Falcon where waveshining might be a better follow up than an Uthrow.

 

[Professor Pro]

Link I still say shine grab but if your gonna do multi shine and you know they are gonna stay in their sheild I say they will roll.

 

[Miharu]

well yeah. I was thinking more for opponents like Link or Captain Falcon where waveshining might be a better follow up than an Uthrow.

If you can waveshine out of your double(multi) shine then go for it. I myself can't do either, but learning JC grab out of shine seems a lot more reliable/applicable.

 

[Shai Hulud]

You will not be able to wavedash out of the second shine fast enough. You could practice the timing to wavedash immediately, but the problem is that if your opponent is still shielding you're going to wavedash anyway. You can sit there and shine him until one hits, but the very fastest you're going to be able to react is about 10 frames after the shine hits, and that's assuming you have really, really good reflexes. If your opponent knows what he's doing he'll buffer a roll or spot dodge and you won't be able to hit him after the wavedash.

You could probably get away with just doubleshine=> wavedash against people unfamiliar with you, who would generally try to grab after the first shine. But if you start doing this a lot they're going to catch on and just stay in their shield. Multishining with Falco is much more effective because you have a lot more time to react and start comboing in the instance a shine connects. With Fox it's just impossible to react that fast, and any success you have will be based on prediction.

 

[Tyr_03]

lol yeah starting to agree with it being unreliable. I can pull it off maybe one out of 30 times I try it. I think theoretically it could be useful but in practice it's just too hard to do all the motions in the amount of time you need. JC grab is better.

 

[SpaceFalcon]

I just aerial>shine>wavedash>grab

Or if they escape you do something else, cause you are a fox.

 

[Tyr_03]

^^^
well the point is they held their shield up through your shine so they can shieldgrab you before you wavedash.

 

[calmchaos]

Y not drill > grab since he's going to wait for you anyway?
I bet it'll trick him at least once if it's not fast enough to work all the time.

Or drill > sex kick?

Switch it up.. you know... IDK that's what I would do. Good idea or not. LOL

 

[SpaceFalcon]

^^^
well the point is they held their shield up through your shine so they can shieldgrab you before you wavedash.

Then you're not waveshining fast enough.

 

[GOTM]

i see jman drillshine-wavedash in place-shine (repeat), and this looks like it kind of works. maybe against people with slow grabs though

 

[Shai Hulud]

i see jman drillshine-wavedash in place-shine (repeat), and this looks like it kind of works. maybe against people with slow grabs though

No way that will work, a wavedash takes a minimum of 17 frames. You could easily get grabbed, or your opponent could buffer a roll, spot dodge, or jump.

 

[GOTM]

No way that will work, a wavedash takes a minimum of 14 or 15 frames. You could easily get grabbed, or your opponent could buffer a roll, spot dodge, or jump.

i was talking about doing it to someones sheild, my bad if i didnt clarify.

and yes i have seen this not work if he is not shining quick enough after a wavedash in place.

i think on characters with slow grabs, this can help not get grabbed and GET them to jump if anything.

 

[Shai Hulud]

i was talking about doing it to someones sheild, my bad if i didnt clarify.

and yes i have seen this not work if he is not shining quick enough after a wavedash in place.

i think on characters with slow grabs, this can help not get grabbed and GET them to jump if anything.

The landing lag from a wavedash is the same regardless of angle.

 

[Professor Pro]

How about mix it up like just run up to him and grab him since he is staying in his shield. and when he starts jump out his shield run behind him forward. Just mix it up all together with some of the stuff other people said. There shouldn't be a specific technique for most situations.

 

[Tyr_03]

lol obviously you wouldn't do the same thing everytime. I'm just saying this could be an alternate option. It's really hard to do but it looks freaking sweet. Both shines hit against some characters like DK if they don't shield and then you can wavedash in for an upsmash. JC grab after shine is probably the easiest and most reliable of your options though. I don't think there's a whole lot of reason other than show to do anything other than a JC grab if they keep shielding.

 

[Gerbil]

Drillshine -> WD backward -> *opponent grabs* -> you WD in and grab.

Simple.

 

[takieddine]

Stop complicating things. keep it simple/efficient and fast enough so they don't buffer a roll/spot dodge.

Just do drill>grab, or drill>shine grab, theres no better alternatives. Getting a grab off in most cases is more important that getting a shine.

 

[Eggm]

The only time drill double shine is useful is vs like peach if you know they are gonna try to CC the whole drill shine, cause then both shines hit and the 2nd shine hits like a normal first shine would if peach wasn't ccing and you can then waveshine up smash. Other than that its kinda useless for fox for the reasons shai posted. I have super good control/reflexes and I can't even react on my foxes multishines fast enough to WD into up smash or grab on a shielding opponent, i'd have to already know which shine was gonna hit to do that.

 

[Proverbs]

Tyr, as you know I don't even play Fox in any of the games (well, I do a little in 64, but I'm sure that barely counts). So if I say something stupid, don't mind me.

Why not use both the JC grab and the double shine? Not at the same time of course, but I mean why not switch it up? If you keep up just JC grabbing they'll spotdodge, so if you mix it in with some shines, you might find them continuing to shield more often.

Alternatively, why can't you just double shine and then JC grab? This way if they thought you were going to grab, they only spotdodge your second shine and then you grab them as they come out of it. Or they shield the second shine and you follow up with a grab. Or they get hit by the second shine by trying to grab you and then you can lead into a grab.

See what I mean?

Once again, sorry if I'm ignorant. I don't use Fox.