Why my love for JRPGs has diminished

[Skadorski]

3 Pages and Persona hasn't been mentioned yet...? I thought it was really good (or overrated)? Haven't played it yet but heard really good things about it.

 

[finalark]

3 Pages and Persona hasn't been mentioned yet...? I thought it was really good (or overrated)? Haven't played it yet but heard really good things about it.

I've never played Persona, but as far as I know they're a series of JRPGs that cover controversial topics.

And also from what I've heard their idea of "controversial" is Nyarlathotep pretending to be a resurrected Hitler.

 

[ryuu seika]

TALES OF SYMPHONIA IS BLAND, GENERIC AND FORGETTABLE

I do not like you one bit.
Short of Legendia, that was the best RPG I've ever played!

I was shocked and appalled by your above statement but I really shouldn't have been. Someone as into FF crap as you would never understand what makes these games great. I mean FF? Really? That whole series was bland, generic and forgettable and it didn't even have good combat or likable characters to redeem it.

Maybe I should buy Symphonia PS2...

 

[finalark]

I do not like you one bit.
Short of Legendia, that was the best RPG I've ever played!

I was shocked and appalled by your above statement but I really shouldn't have been. Someone as into FF crap as you would never understand what makes these games great. I mean FF? Really? That whole series was bland, generic and forgettable and it didn't even have good combat or likable characters to redeem it.

Maybe I should buy Symphonia PS2...

Spoiler

In that case, what made Symphonia so great to you? Was it knowing everything that was going to happen and how the characters were going to react to it? Was it how you can faceroll through every battle? Was it the fact that they made you wander around until you found where you're supposed to go next? Was it the mandatory BS that accomplished nothing and existed only to pad out the game? Was it the run-of-the-mill dungeons? The lack of any decent customization?

 

[deepseadiva]

*barely glances title*

my love for JRPGs has diminished

Good they're terrible.

 

[finalark]

It's not that they don't like change so much, it's that they hate anything that isn't Japanese.

Which is why they're behind us in terms of game design. After all, us baka gaijin have no idea how to make a true masterpiece like angst effeminate teenage power fantasy #2718.

I want to go to Japan and high-five everyone there who owns and Xbox and plays games like Call of Duty and Mass Effect for cutting down on the xenophobia.

 

[ryuu seika]

Ok Finalark, I'll explain what I enjoyed about the game but I have to set a few things straight along the way.

You claim there is no decent customisation. Sure, you don't have the D&D style stat upping and ability buying that many games have but that doesn't mean you don't have a good amount of control over your stats, abilities and special moves. The titles you gain throughout the game change what stats you gain when you level up and no one title is strictly better than the rest (though most are strictly better than the default). If you want full control over your stats, you can always swap titles every level to make sure you get what you want. Next comes the use of exspheres to grant up to four abilities or stat boosts, with one or two extras if you choose a good combination. Depending on which abilities you use, your character will become either S or T type, affecting what moves are learnt. For Lloyd (the main character), this will only affect what extensions he gets but for some of the others this also determines what moves get extensions and can even result in some unique fusion spells for Genis (the blue clothed silver haired kid). There are then the stat boosting herbs which can be given to whoever you feel needs the bonus most and various points at which you can choose one of two options, affecting Lloyd's relationship with the rest of the cast. This leads to various storyline changes, certain costume titles being available (to change the characters' appearance) and even an alternate ending. The most dramatic change is that if Kratos likes you most, you get him back at the end after

Spoiler

killing off Zelos

.

Speaking of the story, I think you're over-exaggeration by claiming it was all predictable. Yes, it was rather so at times but not the entirety of it and while the game honestly was based on just about every JRPG cliche under the sun, I felt that that was part of what made it work. Mana trees and evil angels go down well with me for some reason. Besides, the story also had plenty of depth to it. It wasn't just a throwing together of every possible overused concept without any thought behind it. If it wasn't for the depth involved, I doubt I'd've replayed the game at all, let alone be on my seventh playthrough.

The map issue I can agree with. Every time I play the game I with someone they can't wait to get the Rheairds (or Ray Birds if you'd rather) so we don't get stuck the wrong side of a mountain again.

As for the dungeons, there were a few annoying ones but the others weren't bad at all.

And combat? What was wrong with the combat? Sure, you can A button your way through it without ever having to think but that's what I find myself doing in both the turn based crap you used to ;like and the MMOs I just can't get into (probably the lack of any defined story or goals). The difference with symphonia is that you tend to do a lot better if you don't just go in with the same predetermined strategy for every battle or type of battle. Thinking on your feet and adapting to the situation comes into play here. What's more, the lack of a defined "you hit, I hit, I hit, I hit, I hit, you hit" structure means that the characters benefit from working together to combo, meaning that you get a real sense of understanding of your teammates' fighting styles and can see just how valuable they are when they save you from a devastating assault. Of course, it can also backfire when they act like total imbeciles but that too can be part of the fun. This aspect makes it a great multiplayer experience. The combat system is one of he best bits.

There's more to it than that though. The combat works together with the focus on character interaction to make you feel as though these people really are your childhood friends. From the sounds of it, you got out of FF crap more or less the same thing as I do from the Tales series. I don't see how as I find that sort of turn based system really dull and the characters genuinely impossible to get along with, ruining any enjoyment I might possibly get from such games. Frankly, I curse them for the shelf space they take up and the fact that they make it that much harder to find the type of JRPG I like.

 

[VietGeek]

I do not like you one bit.
Short of Legendia, that was the best RPG I've ever played!

I was shocked and appalled by your above statement but I really shouldn't have been. Someone as into FF crap as you would never understand what makes these games great. I mean FF? Really? That whole series was bland, generic and forgettable and it didn't even have good combat or likable characters to redeem it.

Maybe I should buy Symphonia PS2...

Tales is no different in becoming generic and bland with it becoming an almost yearly offering. Not to mention its obsessive whoring of questionable director's cuts and recent console-swapping shenanigans is now-typical Namco robbery.

I still don't understand how ToS is so popular when it has become graphically dated and its gameplay has been improved upon by later 3D installments. Its story is so-so, with a few plot twists embellish its mediocrity.

The only saving grace is character interaction and back story, which is by no means unique to ToS, nor is it unique to Tales. I will say I am bias and like Tales characters more though. Whatever.

How much of that popularity is for its actual merits and how much is from nostalgia? I've played the game nearly 14 times, and I can only say ToS does not age well.

 

[ryuu seika]

Tales is no different in becoming generic and bland with it becoming an almost yearly offering. Not to mention its obsessive whoring of questionable director's cuts and recent console-swapping shenanigans is now-typical Namco robbery.

Whether something is or isn't repetitively churned out like that was irrelevant to my original post. FF stuff is like that even if you're never played an RPG before.

I still don't understand how ToS is so popular when it has become graphically dated and its gameplay has been improved upon by later 3D installments. Its story is so-so, with a few plot twists embellish its mediocrity.

The graphics are fine, though ToS does lack the oversaturated greens of the american import titles. The gameplay of ToS can feel a little slow at times now but the improvements really aren't that vast. The story is pretty much classic JRPG fleshed out with intricate detail and depth. I don't see what's wrong with any of that.

How much of that popularity is for its actual merits and how much is from nostalgia? I've played the game nearly 14 times, and I can only say ToS does not age well.

To me, gamecube games aren't really old enough to be nostalgic (with the exception of Melee but that's a special case). If I wanted nostalgia, I'd be playing N64 games and ToP.
What keeps me coming back is the fact that, even though I've played it atleast 6 and a half times, I've still not done everything and I still can't remember everything that happens due to the sheer amount of it. There's just so much to do in the game.

The sequel was rubbish.

 

[Deleted member]

I big complaint I hear about JRPGs is that they're too linear. Square tried to make a more open one called Final Fantasy XII. The fanboys had a damn hissy fit (almost as much as they raged about Vaan). The next game returned to the linear format and the fanboys had yet another hissy fit. JRPG players are all so hard to please.

 

[finalark]

Ok Finalark, I'll explain what I enjoyed about the game but I have to set a few things straight along the way.

Alright. I'm not sure why you're acting like it's a personal attack but I'll play along.

You claim there is no decent customisation. Sure, you don't have the D&D style stat upping and ability buying that many games have but that doesn't mean you don't have a good amount of control over your stats, abilities and special moves. The titles you gain throughout the game change what stats you gain when you level up and no one title is strictly better than the rest (though most are strictly better than the default). If you want full control over your stats, you can always swap titles every level to make sure you get what you want. Next comes the use of exspheres to grant up to four abilities or stat boosts, with one or two extras if you choose a good combination. Depending on which abilities you use, your character will become either S or T type, affecting what moves are learnt. For Lloyd (the main character), this will only affect what extensions he gets but for some of the others this also determines what moves get extensions and can even result in some unique fusion spells for Genis (the blue clothed silver haired kid). There are then the stat boosting herbs which can be given to whoever you feel needs the bonus most and various points at which you can choose one of two options, affecting Lloyd's relationship with the rest of the cast. This leads to various storyline changes, certain costume titles being available (to change the characters' appearance) and even an alternate ending. The most dramatic change is that if Kratos likes you most, you get him back at the end after

Spoiler

killing off Zelos

.

Jesus, how did I miss all of that **** when I played through ToS years ago? I remember the titles but that's it.

Speaking of the story, I think you're over-exaggeration by claiming it was all predictable. Yes, it was rather so at times but not the entirety of it and while the game honestly was based on just about every JRPG cliche under the sun, I felt that that was part of what made it work.

I never felt like I was apart of the game at all. I felt like I was watching the most run of the mill Japanese cartoon in the world and occasionally had to push buttons to go to the next predictable even. Also, the fact that each and every character was an archetype with no depth added to them beyond the set-in-stone designs made it painful to sit through. We've seen all of these characters a million times before and we all know exactly how they're going to react to everything that happens.

Mana trees and evil angels go down well with me for some reason. Besides, the story also had plenty of depth to it. It wasn't just a throwing together of every possible overused concept without any thought behind it. If it wasn't for the depth involved, I doubt I'd've replayed the game at all, let alone be on my seventh playthrough.

Um, excuse me? What "depth" was there to ToS story? There was nothing there, it was just the same "ragtag group of adventures go collect mcguffins to save the world" story we've all seen before. They added in no new twists, did nothing to the bland and one dimensional characters, they did nothing to make it fresh.

As for the dungeons, there were a few annoying ones but the others weren't bad at all.

They weren't bad, just forgettable.

And combat? What was wrong with the combat? Sure, you can A button your way through it without ever having to think but that's what I find myself doing in both the turn based crap you used to

Again, why are you treating this like a personal attack? Besides, FFs haven't been turn based for years.

The difference with symphonia is that you tend to do a lot better if you don't just go in with the same predetermined strategy for every battle or type of battle.

Bull****. Mash A, heal, Mash A, heal, won every battle in the game for me.

Thinking on your feet and adapting to the situation comes into play here. What's more, the lack of a defined "you hit, I hit, I hit, I hit, I hit, you hit" structure means that the characters benefit from working together to combo, meaning that you get a real sense of understanding of your teammates' fighting styles and can see just how valuable they are when they save you from a devastating assault.

What? Thinking on your feet? Half the time your only options were "A for slashy attack, B for slashier attack, and your team mates will occasionally do **** in the background." Honestly, all I ever used my team mates for was healing.

Of course, it can also backfire when they act like total imbeciles but that too can be part of the fun.

Bad AI = Fun game, right guys?

This aspect makes it a great multiplayer experience. The combat system is one of he best bits.

ToS had multiplayer? Never knew that.

There's more to it than that though. The combat works together with the focus on character interaction to make you feel as though these people really are your childhood friends.

I disagree, really. I never really felt like any of my party members were cooperating with me, most like off doing their own thing while occasionally providing support.

From the sounds of it, you got out of FF crap more or less the same thing as I do from the Tales series.

Again, acting like it's a personal attack. I mentioned off to the side that I disliked ToS, I didn't personally say anything against you.

I don't see how as I find that sort of turn based system really dull and the characters genuinely impossible to get along with, ruining any enjoyment I might possibly get from such games.

And I can understand dislike turn based combat. I like the slow, tense feelings turn based combat. I like putting together a long-term strategy and watch it slowly fold out in a tense battle. As for the casts, it depends on the game for me. Like I really had a hard time liking VII and VIII's characters while I enjoyed IX and IV's cast.

Frankly, I curse them for the shelf space they take up and the fact that they make it that much harder to find the type of JRPG I like.

Nobody said you had to play them. Stop acting like I personally attacked you, I just didn't like ToS is all.

 

[ryuu seika]

I'm not sure why you're acting like it's a personal attack but I'll play along.

Sorry. I'm not keen on people knocking the games I love but normally I wouldn't react like this. It's when people take vaguely similar stuff that I've hated for a fair amount of my life and try to claim it's somehow better that I tend to over react. The same think happens when people try to tell me Diddy Kong Racing is just a cheap Mario Kart rip off and the like.

Jesus, how did I miss all of that **** when I played through ToS years ago? I remember the titles but that's it.

If you honestly didn't like the game, you may not have got that far. It's atleast 5 hours in, maybe even as far as 10, before all that gets explained to you.

Anyway, I'll have to cut the rest short as my new PS2 has turned up and I've got games to play.

 

[finalark]

Sorry. I'm not keen on people knocking the games I love but normally I wouldn't react like this. It's when people take vaguely similar stuff that I've hated for a fair amount of my life and try to claim it's somehow better that I tend to over react. The same think happens when people try to tell me Diddy Kong Racing is just a cheap Mario Kart rip off and the like.

Well relax, besides, FF and Tales have hardly anything in common besides both being JRPGs. Hell, I never even compared it to Final Fantasy, I just said that I didn't like it.

If you honestly didn't like the game, you may not have got that far. It's atleast 5 hours in, maybe even as far as 10, before all that gets explained to you.

I recall hitting the end of the first disk before I got bored of it.

 

[Falconv1.0]

If a game takes 10 ****ing hours to be even kinda enjoyable, it's a terrible ****ing game.

 

[Jakandsig]

That can mostly be blamed on Microsoft. After the crash of '83 it looked like us westerners had no idea how to keep the video game market afloat, which lead to the Japanese to do it instead. Because the market was dominated by Japanese consoles that meant a vast majority of the games were Japanese. Then along came the Xbox, the first successful western console since the Atari 2600, which eventually exploded into the Xbox 360 and practically became the center of the video game world.

The dominance of a western console brought the techniques and style of often western developed PC games. This came as a ***** slap to the Japanese developers who were convinced that the Xbox was a baka gaijin console due to the fact that it was in a distant third in Japan (and the 360 still is). Now Japanese developers are trying to use old techniques and game design that come off as dated and out of place in a western-dominated gaming world.

Actually, the mjority of GAMES was still western made. Consoles were the only thing DOMINATED by the japanese.

 

[El Nino]

Could someone today who has never played OoT in their life pick it up and enjoy it just as much as we all did back in '98?

I did, actually. I gave up games during the N64, Dreamcast, PS1 era. Didn't pick them up again until 2003, and didn't get a chance at OoT until around 2006. I enjoyed it, but it should be noted that I am not often moved by pretty graphics. So the visuals didn't bother me. Maybe only because I remember when Link was a squat 8-bit pixelated elf-shaped thing.

IThe reason why Majora's Mask stood the test of time for me is that they decided to push into a deeper storyline, a massive amount of dialogue with implications, lots of subtle hints about the world and its history dropped here and there, a whole world of characters that feel alive. I still get that sense today, so I can still play it and forget how terrible it looks.

I liked Majora's Mask more than OoT. It was more atypical in terms of the storyline, among other things.

 

[ryuu seika]

Well relax, besides, FF and Tales have hardly anything in common besides both being JRPGs. Hell, I never even compared it to Final Fantasy, I just said that I didn't like it.

Indirectly you kind of did but I guess that's not really relevant. Also, I'm glad you can see that one's not just a cheap imitation of the other. Many just go "Ooh, it's a JRPG, it must be a bad FF ripoff!" and dismiss any argument to the contrary.

I recall hitting the end of the first disk before I got bored of it.

You should have seen just about every bit significant to the discussion then, minus the alterable ending and 8th party member of course. Just to check though, Regal (blue haired foot fighter guy) had shown up by then right?

EDIT: on the MM and OoT discussion: I never really like MM. The beginning and end were fun but repeating the same day over and over, even if you did different things in it, seriously bored me. I much preferred OoT. Also, my first playing of SSB64 was about half a hear ago and I still much preferred it to Brawl so clearly graphics aren't a big deal.

 

[finalark]

You should have seen just about every bit significant to the discussion then, minus the alterable ending and 8th party member of course. Just to check though, Regal (blue haired foot fighter guy) had shown up by then right?

No, I got up to the part where you had to complete the mandatory game play lengthening BS of waking the unicorn at the bottom of the lake to save some guy who I'm pretty sure I never had even met up until that point.

That's when I said "**** this, I'm gonna go find a better RPG" and honestly, if it wasn't the only RPG in my possession at the time (long story) I probably wouldn't have even gotten that far.

 

[Ryu Shimazu]

In terms of JRPG, I found quite a few decent ones recently. Just digging around, anyways.

~AT3(and previous titles)
~WK1 (but 2 is coming out soon with 1 on the disc, sooo)
~Golden Sun
~DQIX.

Atm I'm playing Pokemon/DragonAge/SpidermanSD/Moon Diver...thinking of adding AT3 to the mix, as Shattered Dimensions is close to being platinumed.

I don't know why I'm posting this here, I've said this like three times, lulz.