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Why isnt ther a doubles tier list?

BIGM1994

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Honestly i think a doubles tier list would be an awesome idea. Also it would be really interesting to were characters would be. like personally i think Game and watch is 2nd in the doubles tier list maybe not... but idk...dicuss
 

Xebenkeck

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IIRC correctly there are 666(not joking) different combinations of characters, so you try making a tier list with that many possibilities.
 

SuSa

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IIRC we've discussed this before and found there to be over way to many combinations and having to play every single team vs every single other possible team at the highest level of play was basically an impossible feat.

Assuming your team did not have 2 of the same character:
35C2 = (35*34)/(2*1) = 595 combinations. Counting dittos as a matchup (because frankly I'm bad with this sort of math and I'm probably doing it wrong) That leaves for 353,430~ matchups if I did my math correctly.

(Does anyone want to correct my math?)

EDIT:

@Pizzapie

The reason I got 353,430 is because I ended up subtracting 595 from the total to remove dittos.
 

pizzapie7

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I got 354,***. But still, you get the point, there are too many combinations to factor in for a doubles tier list.
 

tuestresfat

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35C2 does NOT account for dittos. idk why you guys are subtracting, when you should be adding.

thats 595 + 35 (dittos) = 630 possible pairs. why were you trying to exclude dittos anyways? we all know the only thing more broken than one metaknight is two. besides, ditto ganons are beastly.
 

SuSa

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35C2 does NOT account for dittos. idk why you guys are subtracting, when you should be adding.

thats 595 + 35 (dittos) = 630 possible pairs. why were you trying to exclude dittos anyways? we all know the only thing more broken than one metaknight is two. besides, ditto ganons are beastly.

Because I was talking matchups.

A MK + MK vs. MK + MK matchup shows us very little about where the character places. Because it's a 50:50.

Same reason that we generally exclude dittos in matchup discussions (generally....) and AFAIK they aren't included when judging tier decisions. "Sheik can own herself but Zelda can't to be honestso Sheik could be higher" < lolwut?
Reading Comprehension. I need some.

595 combinations for teams. (35 playable chars, can be matched with 34 others) although I guess mirror teams should be accounted for (MK+MK is a good example there) that was my bad in forgetting to think a character could team with themselves.

But that just makes the number larger, and it's already ridiculous.

So not counting a team vs the same team, the number should be:

396,270

(If I didn't make mistakes - which I'm sure I did)

 

Sirami

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(If I didn't make mistakes - which I'm sure I did)

Mistakes on two fronts. You want to include doubles for number of teams, and exclude doubles for number of matchups (doubles in matchups are 50-50). Also, once you have your total number of teams, and you want to consider matchups, raising to a power of two and subtracting the number of teams wasn't the right way to go. Here's a quick hint. For any one matchup considered, do you not choose two teams per matchup?

When choosing 2 from a set, you don't need factorials. You can solve choose 2 problems with a series. I'll give the standard formulas at the bottom, but for now I'll solve using series', as that makes it clear what the difference between doubles and no-doubles is, and why we need to use both to figure total matchups.

First, let's show that using a series will work for both inclusive and exclusive choose 2 problems using word examples. How many sets of two letters can you make from the word CAT including doubles, and excluding doubles?:

CAT choose 2 inclusive (with doubles):
CC, CA, CT, AA, AT, TT = 6 combos, 3 start with C, 2 start with A, one starts with T. (3+2+1)

CAT choose 2 exclusive (without doubles):
CA, CT, AT = 3 combos, 2 start with C, one starts with A. (2+1)

You get the exclusive result when you run 3 choose 2 on a calculator.
The difference between inclusvie and exclusive = 3 which is the same number of letters in CAT (X=3)

Now let's try the same thing with the word "STOP"

STOP choose 2 inclusive:
SS, ST, SO, SP, TT, TO, TP, OO, OP, PP = 10 combos (4+3+2+1)

STOP choose 2 exclusive:
ST, SO, SP, TO, TP, OP = 6 combos, (3+2+1)

You get the exclusive result when you run 4 choose 2 on a calculator.
Difference between inclusive and exclusive = 4 which is the same number of letters in STOP (X=4)

This pattern holds watter no matter how high you go, so long as you're only doing choose 2. So, now that we know we can, let's find the total number of matchups in SSBB doubles using series'. I'll write out the formulas in an exemplarity notation (the same notation I saw it in when my instructor was introducing us to these kinds of problems):

35 choose 2 inclusive is the number of possible character combinations (including doubles). Calculators will typically run the exclusive formula by default (see word examples for proof). Because we're choosing 2, fixing this is easy if you want to run it on your calculator. Simply add X to your result after your calculator gives you your answer. If that doesn't make sense, look up at the word examples. (see above word examples for proof)

Here's the inclusive formula:
(X+X-1+X-2+X-3.....+1) where X is the number of objects chosen from.

This formula INCLUDES double picks. Remember, the difference between exclusive and inclusive (no doubles and doubles) is X. Since calculators give us exclusive, all we need to do is add X for choose 2 inclusive problems.

35+34+33+32........+1 = 630
OR
Calculator: 35choose2 = 595 +35 = 630

Now that we know how many team combos there are, we want to find the number of matchups. For any one game, we're choosing 2 teams, which means that we're going to run a choose formula again, only this time we DON'T want to be able to pick two of the same object (team) on any one pick (same team vs same team is 50-50). So now we use the standard exclusive formula (the only difference between the two formulas is that we start on X-1 instead of starting on X).

Here's the exclusive formula:
(X-1+X-2+X-3.....+1) where X is the number of objects chosen from. In our case X= 630.

629+628+627+626+.........+1 = 198,135 total team matchups.
or just run it on your calculator, this time without adding X.
Calculator: 630choose2 = 198,135

And that's the grand total number of matchups that would need to be considered in a SSBB Doubles tier list (198,135)

One-hundred ninety-eight thousand, one-hundred thirty-five total matchups to consider, which is why there's no doubles tier list.

Interesting tidbit of info, is that for 1v1 matchups, the number of matchups would be 35 choose 35 exclusive, which is 595.
--------------------------

I was using series formulas to solve choose 2 problems to explain things. You can do without the standard formulas for choose 2, but for any more you need a standard choose formula (or a permutations formula with p! included in the denominator).

Standard exclusive formula (the one the calculator will give you).

n choose p = n! / p!(n-p!)

Inclusive formula.

n choose p = (n! / p!(n-p!)) + (n(p-1))

You can still get an inclusive result easily from a calculator. Just have to add n(p-1).

So, for total teams (running inclusive formula):
35 choose 2
=(35)! / (2)!((35)-(2))! + ((35)((2)-1))
=35! / 2*1(33)! + 35
=(35*34) / 2 + 35
=630

And now for number of matchups (running exclusive formula):
630 choose 2
=(630)! / (2)! ((630)-(2))!
=630! / 2(628)!
=630*629 / 2
=198,135
 

daisho

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You don't have to have a tier list with all the combinations, you can just have one with all the characters and how good they are at playing doubles.
 

The Phazon Assassin

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i dont see how a tier list similar to the marvel vs capcom would be too strenuous a task, and i agree with daisho too
This is a good point, but despite MvC being a 2v2, or 3v3 game, most of tbe fighting is done one on one. This isn't always the case in Brawl.

However, a doubles tier list discussion, I feel would prove to very interesting to read.

Ganon, despite being low tier, has lots of potential in teams, given a good teammate that would compliment his strength. Then again, this holds true for, like, everyone.
 

Sirami

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In MvC considering your partner involves how well the point character can protect the assist, as well as synergy between the characters (how useful the assist is for your point character, how well you can DHC to the assist from the point character, and such).

Basically, in MvC, Storm is storm, Mags is Mags, Sent is Sent, all regardless of the assist. You end up with a few oddities like Strider+Doom, and Iron Man going up a lot with assist help (assists for setting up his infinite), and CC/psy assists being good enough to pull them up even though they suck on point, but for the most part being good on point is the single most important factor.

For Smash 2v2, there's a lot more to consider.
 

Underload

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You don't have to have a tier list with all the combinations, you can just have one with all the characters and how good they are at playing doubles.
I think this is the way people should go, not putting two characters in each tier slot (Game and Watch + ZSS in one slot, for example.)
 

BIGM1994

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You can always look at tournament rankings but i dont think that will work out too good so idk..but what daisho said is a way you can do it,like isnt it obvious mk is better in teams than gannon...
 

TP

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Ganon is actually useful in doubles, where there is less camping to deal with, fewer chaingrabs, and his Utilt has the ability to stop momentum, thus saving his partner or catching his enemies after his partner throws them.
 

Koala

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Yeah, the only way that I would see this working is if there was a way to find out how effective of a partner said character is and judge it that way.

There are obivously way too many combinations of teams to try and make the list based on each possible set of character matchups and team combinations and what not.
 

SuSa

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The problem with "how good of a partner they are" depends on their partner. Zamus can fill G&W's bucket - which gives her a Pro for the team. Unlike Falcon who can't fill G&W's bucket.Therefore to get any form of accuracy in a tier list for doubles, you would have to do a tier list with all of the team combinations. (630) and a tier list is how good someone does against the rest of the cast.

This would mean you would have to have 1 team vs the other 629. For every single team to have any form of accuracy in the list.
 

daisho

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Yeah, but instead of that you can say GnW is good because he can have people fill his bucket. ZSS is not unique that she fills his bucket, a bunch of people can... it is the bucket that makes him unique. That would be listed as a pro for GnW not for ZSS.
 

SuSa

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The Pro trait of Zamus is how fast she can fill the bucket. 3 dsmashes and bam. That's faster then Zelda using 3 Din's fires.

Then you get way to vague. Also, Zamus can use dsmash/B to stun her opponents allowing G&W a free hit with no risk of hitting Zamus (who can simply run away afterwards). Something that no other character can do with such safety without the G&W spacing extremely well.

See how this can get complicated?
 

daisho

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The Pro trait of Zamus is how fast she can fill the bucket. 3 dsmashes and bam. That's faster then Zelda using 3 Din's fires.

Then you get way to vague. Also, Zamus can use dsmash/B to stun her opponents allowing G&W a free hit with no risk of hitting Zamus (who can simply run away afterwards). Something that no other character can do with such safety without the G&W spacing extremely well.

See how this can get complicated?
Yeah, I can see that. I still thing it would be cool to even have a "vaguely correct" tier list.

Obviously you can include in both the ZSS and G&W characters that when partnered together they are amazing and count that as a plus, but I certainly understand the dilemma.
 

:mad:

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At any rate, we don't need one. The best characters for doubles are MK, Snake, Wario, and Game and Watch.

But don't take my word for it, I didn't back up my statement.
 

Phantomwake

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I think what he is asking for and what could be useful is essentially a character rankings list for doubles constructed like Ankoku's list for singles.
 

pacmansays

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Most character forums still have to complete their matchup charts, this would take a lot of time to complete
 
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