Why is wolf high tier?

[Turbo Ether]

They don't get completely walled by ludicrously poor matchups against common top tier characters like Wolf does. Going all Sheik/Zelda at a large-scale tournament would likely net better results than going all Wolf. Wolf's moveset is better than Sheik/Zeldas overall, but he gets ***** by the game's physics. Also, just transform while you or the enemy is recovering from offstage. If you can edgeguard and get the gimp or spike, no need to transform.

 

[colored blind]

The ability to in-game CP is pretty invaluable for them. **** matchups against one are suddenly manageable for the other.

Transformation isn't that big a deal either. Zelda knocks the opponent offstage with every move she has, and Sheik has a fair amount of strong aerials and her Dsmash, which probably won't kill, but can definitely set up a Transform.

Tier lists a in large part determined by how badly they do against the characters above them, and how well they do against the characters below them. Zelda/Sheik has the potential to be better than Wolf in both of these areas. Not necessarily saying that they should be placed above Wolf, but it's definitely something that could happen.

Anyway, I think we've covered most of the points as to why Wolf is in high tier, and why he'll likely sty there. He's pretty much where he belongs, imo.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

They don't get completely walled by ludicrously poor matchups against common top tier characters like Wolf does.

Wolf gets ***** by DDD, Falco and MK. He also has the disadvantage to Sheik

Zelda/Sheik get ***** by MK, G&W, semi ***** by Marth, Snake as well as some obscure characters like Luigi.

Wolf needs less back-up than Zelda/Sheik - G&W and Falco can deal with most of wolfs weaknesses (Falco a bit better).

Since neither can do it alone (although there are more solo Wolfs winning tourneys than Sheik/Zelda) Wolf can be considered more viable. Thus Wolf > Zelda/Sheik.

 

[-Mars-]

Wolf gets ***** by DDD, Falco and MK. He also has the disadvantage to Sheik

Zelda/Sheik get ***** by MK, G&W, semi ***** by Marth, Snake as well as some obscure characters like Luigi.

Wolf needs less back-up than Zelda/Sheik - G&W and Falco can deal with most of wolfs weaknesses (Falco a bit better).

Since neither can do it alone (although there are more solo Wolfs winning tourneys than Sheik/Zelda) Wolf can be considered more viable. Thus Wolf > Zelda/Sheik.

*Sigh*. Whenever I happen to pop in on the Wolf boards, your always saying something you have no clue about.

The only real hard-counter Sheik/Zelda has in the game is G&W. Even then Zelda can kill G&W at ridiculously low percents after Sheik racks up damage with ftilt and needles. Sheiks usmash tipper also kills before Zelda's usmash does, it's one of the best vertical KO moves in the game.

Sheik is actually one of the better characters to use against MK. She can chain camp him and if done correctly, there isn't a thing he can do about it. Granted this has to be done perfectly, but even if he eventually breaks through...........half his stock is gone. MK is one of the more susceptible characters to the tilt lock for whatever reason and one good tilt lock and that's half a stock. Sheik also has a GUARANTEED grab release to DACUS on MK that KO's at 90%. Her utilt also beats a few of MK's common aerials and ftilt clanks with some of his ground moves. She also doesn't get ***** offstage like the majority of the cast. This isn't an advantage, but it's only 60:40 MK............certainly not a "****" matchup. Don't believe me? Ask other Sheik players........this isn't "fanboyism" from me.

When you mean "semi-*****" for the Marth matchup........i'm hoping that means 60:40 or 55:45..........because Sheik actually does well vs. Marth. Once again her tipper is going to kill at incredibly low percentages and she actually has the speed and manueverability to get inside of Marth. She also edgeguards the s*** out of Marth.

Snake isn't a hard counter either, in fact it's still under debate as to whether Sheik goes close to even with him. His grenade camping is nullified by Sheiks needles, she racks damage on him quickly, and can actually camp him in this matchup. Meaning she doesn't have to face ftilt, jab, and utilt head on. Utilt and ftilt also trade with Snakes'.

The Luigi comment is just extremely offbase and ignorant. Zelda's moveset completely shuts down Luigis whole game......I had to pinch myself when I read that comment from you.

Sheik goes even with or beats Falco, Zelda beats DDD(don't tell me she doesn't), and Zelda goes even with or is slightly disadvantaged to ROB.

I could care less whether or not Sheik/Zelda is ranked above Wolf......but they certainly perform better against the top tier than Wolf.

Edit: Lucario is actually a more difficult matchup than Snake, Marth, or Luigi.

 

[Samuelson]

Wolf's shine is one of the best moves in the game. Once people really learn how to master the shine then i think you will be able to see what Wolf is so great. This is just on top of what everybody else has been saying btw. It just sucks that all the other high tiers put Wolf to shame

I love Wuffy <3

 

[~ Gheb ~]

marsulas, you do realize that the tier list is still innacurate? Because there are many claims (and very valid arguments) that Olimar and Diddy will take G&Ws and D3s spots in top tier.

Should this be the case, Wolf would have two advantages vs top tiers. The "value" of the match-up will change for sure, since many characters will have different positions. The number of good and bad match-up's won't change unless something match-up breaking will be found.

In other words: Wolf might have 3 major disadvantages vs top tiers now but that doesn't mean it will stay like this. Especially since most people believe that D3 will drop (whether this is true is a different question).

Sheik/Zeldas match-up's vs top tier characters might be better now but when the top tier changes (which will happen....Falco is certainly better than 5th and G&W is much worse than 4th) things will look different. But the number of disadvantages will remain...

 

[Turbo Ether]

Marsulas: Saying anything clanks with MK's ground attacks is false, since all of his standard ground and aerial attacks have "laser" priority. MK is clearly a Jedi.

 

[colored blind]

The thing about Zelda/Sheik is the whole in-game CP'ing that can happen. The only two characters that counter them both ON THE ROSTER are G&W and MK, and even MK's debatable as a counter.

D3's placement may change, but that doesn't stop the fact that many will know how to play him because he's such a destructive counterpick against so many characters. MK and Falco, Wolf's other **** matchups, are here to stay.

Even if Olimar and Diddy increase in tier position, I doubt that D3 and Falco will see a noticeable decline in popularity, and they definitely won't end up lower on the tier list than Wolf. He'll still have to deal with his hard matchups. Plus, the Olimar and Diddy matchups aren't extremely in Wolf's favor.

I really doubt Wolf's going to be raised or lowered much in his tier placement. Stuff around him will change, but he'll usually stay mid/high. Sheik/Zelda will likely be around the same placement, maybe higher, maybe lower, but they'll definitely give Wolf a run for his money when it comes to placement.

 

[YoshiIslander77z]

... have u face a wolf? a good one?

 

[AssaultX]

I think TeeKay's got this discussion. Good post.

Marsulas: Saying anything clanks with MK's ground attacks is false, since all of his standard ground and aerial attacks have "laser" priority. MK is clearly a Jedi.

I'm debating whether to sig this or not, since I 100% agree that he is a Jedi.

 

[ArcPoint]

He is a Jedi, he can use the force. Example: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z0SX7U_HR0w

 

[-Mars-]

marsulas, you do realize that the tier list is still innacurate? Because there are many claims (and very valid arguments) that Olimar and Diddy will take G&Ws and D3s spots in top tier.

Should this be the case, Wolf would have two advantages vs top tiers. The "value" of the match-up will change for sure, since many characters will have different positions. The number of good and bad match-up's won't change unless something match-up breaking will be found.

In other words: Wolf might have 3 major disadvantages vs top tiers now but that doesn't mean it will stay like this. Especially since most people believe that D3 will drop (whether this is true is a different question).

Sheik/Zeldas match-up's vs top tier characters might be better now but when the top tier changes (which will happen....Falco is certainly better than 5th and G&W is much worse than 4th) things will look different. But the number of disadvantages will remain...

True and when that happens.......you can then make that argument. As of right now, Sheik/Zelda has better matchups.

Marsulas: Saying anything clanks with MK's ground attacks is false, since all of his standard ground and aerial attacks have "laser" priority. MK is clearly a Jedi.

I said it clanks with some of them. sword attacks have Godly priority, but Sheik's dsmash, ftilt, and utilt clank with multiple Marth and MK attacks.

 

[MurdaMoe]

Not really =/ If he grabs you near the edge (With your back towards the edge) then all he can do is Dthrow -> Spike, you recovery, maybe take some more damage, take 10 more percent, and then you can't be chaingrabbed. Congratz, you just avoided the spike.

a good falco would DACPG ;D

 

[AssaultX]

a good falco would DACPG ;D

But the thing is, Falco wouldn't be able to grab you if you were d-throw'd off stage and out of grab range :]

 

[Turbo Ether]

I said it clanks with some of them. sword attacks have Godly priority, but Sheik's dsmash, ftilt, and utilt clank with multiple Marth and MK attacks.

You don't get it. MK's sword does not work like other sword users attacks. Marth's standard attacks can "clank", Meta Knights cannot. His smashes, tilts, jab and aerials can't interact with hitboxes, period.

 

[-Mars-]

You don't get it. MK's sword does not work like other sword users attacks. Marth's standard attacks can "clank", Meta Knights cannot. His smashes, tilts, jab and aerials can't interact with hitboxes, period.

I know for a fact that MK's glide attack clanks with utilt and i've seen it clank with aerials from such characters as Fox and Ganon........I could do some testing on the matter but I know i've clanked utilt with several of MK's moves.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Glide attack is the only A move that can clank. There might be one or two others. But his tilts and jab definitely can't clank.

 

[-Mars-]

You know the thread contains some fallacies when Emblem Lord shows up...............fine i'll conduct testing on the matter.

 

[Chexr]

Wolf (15 top8, 11 top4, 4 top2, 5 wins)

...only 5 wins? I think most of those must have come from me. Step up your game guys.

 

[Shy Guy 86]

IMO, Wolf is better than Pit, I'm not saying that Pit is crappy or such, I just find that Wolf ranks better, and has more potential, characters like G&W/DDD might drop, G&W just isn't that deadly anymore, and DDD is well.... i dunno

But Wolf's bad matchup's against top tier characters(Falco) who is gonna rise(or stay) keeps him away from going as high as Donkey Kong or such.

 

[castorpollux]

Wolf (15 top8, 11 top4, 4 top2, 5 wins)

...only 5 wins? I think most of those must have come from me. Step up your game guys.

I live in California and the East Coast. It's kinda hard to win.

Btw, just wondering... but where are all the MKs, D3s, Falcos in the tournaments you recorded your videos in? From the videos I've seen, you've only fought a diddy, peach, pit, ike, and wario with your wolf.

**edit**

I see you use kirby. I'd give some credit to your kirby caz its just too difficult to win with wolf alone.

 

[ArcPoint]

Haha really, come to Cali and win a regional. We'd love to have you here =D

 

[Turbo Ether]

I now firmly believe that he belongs in high tier. I think a few high tiers are potentially worse than him, and the only characters currently below him that will surpass him are Olimar and ZSS.

 

[Ishiey]

I now firmly believe that he belongs in high tier. I think a few high tiers are potentially worse than him, and the only characters currently below him that will surpass him are Olimar and ZSS.

What made you come to this conclusion?

I wonder when tier list 2.0 will come out, the first one looks somewhat ridiculous as of now.

 

[Turbo Ether]

What made you come to this conclusion?

I wonder when tier list 2.0 will come out, the first one looks somewhat ridiculous as of now.

His matchups are looking better after re-evaluations and discoveries.

I think he's possibly better than Ice Climbers(until people get really good at the 0-death throws maybe), Pit, Wario, and Pikachu and arguably comparable to RoB, DK, and Lucario.

His moveset is great. Great zoning and approach. His punishing is great. He can be played very safely. Ease of gimping him is overrated. Good KO game because Dsmash is amazing; Good range, powerful and super hard to punish for most characters when spaced correctly due to strong shield knockback. Shine gimping people may have potential. Shine in general has potential, due to 6/28 frames of invincibilty and it being easy to hit with. Good camping/projectile (only character that can outcamp Olimar).

My only issue with Wolf is that he only has one good kill move and a handful of characters get some easy damage on him under various circumstances.

I also now think that Fsmash may be worth using for more than punishment. It's unsafe, but the range and speed are sooooo good. This is where mindgames and baiting comes into play. Possibly the best Fsmash in the game. He also possibly has the best Bair.

I also love your idea of offstage B-reversal for momentum changing and gaining access to Bair as you return to the stage.

 

[§witch]

Good question.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I agree with ether all in all but Wario's fsmash >>> Wolfs; I think it's hard to order all the high tier character since all of them are very close. I also think Wolf should be higher although low high tier isn't unfair at all

 

[JOE!]

wolf is an awesome character

its just that game physics puts him at a disadvantage when it come sto grabs/etc...

 

[MetallicFalcon]

heh, i think all you have to do with wolf is just make sure that you stay on the stage and try not to fall off. lol, if you can do that then your wolf is bound to be pretty good. thats what i do at least. My friend plays a pretty good falco and i can beat him 3/4 times with wolf.

Just dont forget to use your blaster lol.

Oh, and one more thing, i DAC alot with wolf, i think it helps my game out but im not too sure, i cant find anything in the wolf boards about DAC so i want to know what you guys think. is it a good thing to use or a bad thing?

 

[Sesshomuronay]

I think its good.

 

[SuSa]

Wolf and Zamus are high tier because they are awesome, underrated, underplayed, and only have a medium learning curve. ( I feel Ganon/Link/Mario and a few others have a much steeper learning curve because they have more you have to get around. )

Zamus and Wolf are also 2 of 3 characters that give me issues when playing. They both **** my Snake, put up a hell of a fight against my Metaknight, it may just be I don't have enough experience in the matchups.... but Zamus, Wolf, and Marth are issues for me -.-

I think if more people played Wolf, and (remembered) that Zamus is a character, they'd definitly go up on the tier list.

The bad thing for both characters is a sub-par recovery. Their recovery is horrible until you put a ton of practice into controlling them, learning how to not get gimped, etc.

Wolf IMO has the worst non-tether recovery Up-B wise. (Yoshi doesn't count =p)

His up-b is really tricky to correctly angle, and his side-B makes you semi-scar and if you're not prepared for it you can very well fall to your death.

long useless rant.

tl;dr
Wolf for high tier.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Zamus recovery is pretty good actually...

 

[SuSa]

Zamus recovery is pretty good actually...

It's a tether recovery = auto bad.

However, like Wolf, if you learn to use their recovery to their best potential, it's not that bad.

 

[Silver13]

Your opinion isn't simple minded D= It's valid.

But yeah, you really can't go Wolf the entire tournament and expect to win it, unless there aren't any DDDs... Falco is debatable, you can just stay near the edge and he won't be able to 0-death CG you.

I'd have to disagree that his recovery isn't bad. It's bad, no doubt about it. It's just that you can overcome it. And I do have faith that Wolf is a decent character, he's not high/top tier material, and will be limited as such, but, as Lucien put it "He's a good overall character". Though, I'm losing faith as a go in-depth into some of the top tier characters...

EpIc fAiLz n00borz!!!11!!1
His recovery is actually very good if you know how to use it. FD gimps him badly tho. Battlefield and Smashville ftw tho. Wolf pwnz0rz n00bz.
Proof In Vid - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HLd1lrsDKqQ&feature=iv&annotation_id=event_649901

Haha =)

 

[megamanexev3]

reading this thread makes me realize why wolf's metagame is progressing so much slower than other characters


wolf is a good character guys. have faith and keep at it

btw his recovery is better than a lot of characters. Marth's recovery sucks.

Marth's recover is much better than Wolf's if you ask me. It can stage spike silly foes too and KO out of a shield.

 

[Ishiey]

I'd say wolf's recovery is a bit better than Marths, but only because marth doesn't have much of a horizontal recovery (even though shieldbreaker helps).

 

[Terodactyl Yelnats]

It's all his bair! That's the reason!

 

[M@v]

Wolf deserves to be in the lower end of the high tier. Hes a great character, stick with him. He should be above pit for sure. Another thing; All the spaces are good characters in this game. In Fact, Spacies Have never been bad in any smash game. I think fox should be the slot right below wolf on the tier lists as well. Almost every area fox is weak in wolf is strong, and vice versa. They are good complements of each other in choosing what characters to play. They both got good traits. It comes down to your personal playstyle. Few examples of what I mean:

Ground game-Wolf>Fox(Besides fox's uptilt/upsmash)

Air game-Fox>Wolf(besides wolf's smexy bair)

Fox-Much better recovery

Wolf-Much Better Edgeguarder

Priority-about equal

Killing potential-about equal(Although foxs upsmash is godly, wolf has more, weaker options, giving him more flexibilty, and less predictability.)

Camping-Depends on your style. Do you camp to make them come to you? Or do you camp to cause damage at low risk? First one is fox, the latter is wolf.

Lastly, Fox and Wolf's matchup chart is very similar, with a couple differences, most notably in the matchups they get owned in. Wolf can avoid pika's CG early; Fox cant. However, DDD, Wolf's worst matchup, Cant chaingrab fox, and Fox vs DDD is at least 50:50, possible even foxs advantage. they both do well vs snake and diddy. Wolf doesnt have much trouble with luigi, a bad matchup for fox. Meanwhile, Fox is slightly advantaged vs R.O.B(55:45). Besides those and maybe one or two more matchups, they are almost identical across the boards(They go even against eachother too btw)

Mainly, It comes down to your playstyle. Basically, All the spacies are good in this game; Stick with them.

 

[Turbo Ether]

Yeah I think Fox is solid. I like his laser game, damage racking, and killing Metaknight at sub-90. He does decent things once he gets inside and he's **** fast. I just wish Fox had a bit more range on some moves, and didn't get caught in stupid damage chains due to dumb physics. SHDL with Fox is really really fun. And so is doing 20-something damage with Fair. I think he's probably better than Pit. I think people are too worried about matchup ratios (not that they're irrelevant), and not focused enough on becoming faster, better at mindgaming and developing and executing matchup strategies. Look at Chu, he curbstomps the hell out of MKs with Kirby. Also, look at how well Boss does maining Mario and Luigi.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I don't think Fox is any good at all. Idk why he's mid tier...when I see his match-up's they aren't similar at all: Fox gets hard countered by Zamus, Pikachu, Sheik, Meta, G&W and does bad vs Snake (yes), Kirby, Luigi, Falco, ICs..no clue why they're supposed to be similar.

That only thing where Fox really has the nod is power. But Wolf is faster, has much more range, and his aerial game is better than Fox', not to mention his ground game. Idk why but I don't even hate Fox...I just think he sucks. I think he'd be low tier if it wasn't for his usmash.