Why is ness bad?

[KoSa!]

I was recently playing Ness today. And I wonder to myself why does Ness suck? or why isn't he up higher on the tier list.

It all started when playing my boy AliasVee, we were doing a few cub scout matches(Ness vs Lucas). And I asked why does Ness suck, he plays like a Jiggy/Kirby with a projectile. A Fair that punishes roll approaches. A Bair that if spaced correctly walls extremely good. A Spike, and a Uair that can stop most aerial approaches. His Nair isn't too good IMO, I use it to punish an incoming AD.

Now his specials are also really good. His PK fire is actually really good against rolls and shields. His PK thunder can be used as a projectile when they are above you, or even a kill move. His Magnet helps in a Falco match, and I have yet to find a use for his PK Flash except for those recovering low.

His Ftilt also very good, his Dtilt trips super easy and can pull of 3-4 quickly into a Fsmash or grab. Dsmash is another kill move he has. I caught my opponent a few times when they roll chase and Dsmash out of no where. This moveset all in all is the perfect moveset. It's one of the most balanced movesets and not one move is overpowered to the rest. I'm not saying he should be top tier, I'm just asking WHY DOES HE SUCK?

 

[Shaky]

Very few use him the right way.

 

[AvariceX]

Very few use him the right way.

^^^^This.

Ness doesn't suck. The vast majority of the Smash community (most Ness players included) don't understand him properly. Most of it is due to residual disdain from Melee Ness; people still think he's the auto-gimped garbage he was back then. Ness lost his double-jump cancel aerials in Brawl, which weakens his on-stage game a bit, but allows us to actually guard our recovery which makes a huge difference. Ness' moveset was also significantly improved from Melee to Brawl, but most people just look at the animations or something and think it's the same. The speed, power, and range of almost everything Ness has was improved in Brawl.

Somewhat recently I played against a Melee veteran who was using Zelda in Brawl and while I was stomping him he said "Did Ness get an even bigger buff than Zelda from Melee to Brawl?" I said "yes, a lot bigger". I also still get people complaining about the priority of PKT2 sweetspot, who become even more surprised after the match when I inform them PKT2 sweetspot is invincible. I've actually had a Meta Knight complain during a game about Ness' priority.

Also, Ness' nair is really, really good. It's Ness' fastest aerial, making it usually the best reaction out-of-shield and the best move for momentum cancelling, although a lot of Nesses (myself included) use Fair for momentum cancelling because it's just easier.

As far as the tier position question, this is the most recent tier list I've made: http://allisbrawl.com/forum/topic.aspx?pid=658367#p658367

I personally actually feel like Ness should be above Pit, Peach, Wolf, and Luigi in that list, but I tried to be unbiased when I made it.

 

[KoSa!]

Like, I said earlier I believe a Ness is like the equivalent of a Jiggy in terms of spacing.

Ness placing under pit wolf actually makes sense.

 

[AvariceX]

Ness has one of the best spacing games in Brawl. 4th best (I think) aerial control, behind Wario, Squirtle, and Jiggs, and one of the longest range aerials (Fair) in the game. I believe the only aerials that actually out-range Ness' retreated fair are DK's and G&W's bairs (other than zairs). I could be wrong though.

 

[SSJ5Goku8932]

Its not that he is bad.
Its because he suffers from what other characters like him suffer from.
Underrated, and outclassed by top tiers.

 

[KoSa!]

I mean I can't help the ness players I'm kinda dedicated to DK. But I will play him in friendlies.

 

[FireKirby7]

lol I think Ness is a great character.
He's just underrated, the SBR doesn't know anything about him...
If they knew what Ness can do, he'd be a bit higher on the tier list...

 

[Levitas]

Ness is pretty terrible actually. He doesn't have a great safe pressure game, nor does he have a way to make his life significantly longer than the opponents.

 

[KoSa!]

I'm not trying to say Ness can hang with Wario or Rob or Diddy. I'm saying he is just a good character or on paper he seems like a good player.

 

[xoxokev]

Ness "sucks" because he has no spammable projectiles, no FAST smash attacks, and can't set up any reliable traps... and if you don't know how to use PKT well, you can be gimped easily

I hope that answers your question

 

[ColinJF]

I don't believe Ness sucks.

 

[Man of Popsicle]

What are you talking about?

 

[Shaky]

I don't believe Ness sucks.

^^^^^ This.

 

[Brinzy]

Game design.

I do not believe that double-jump canceling is what defined Ness. I do believe that with the type of characters you're dealing with this time around (characters who can live forever, characters who can go off-stage forever, characters who have ridiculous range AND speed on several attacks, characters who have amazing defensive games that can always respond to Ness, etc.), Ness shows a lot of weaknesses. His defensive game is, in my opinion, not really that good. This means he has to resort to offensive tactics with lots of baiting, but in Brawl, defensive > offensive. At least, I personally see Ness as an offensive-oriented character.

Seriously though, I have not seen anyone do anything significant to get someone off of Ness's *** besides fair and nair. He can't take pressure that well, even when he's on the stage. He has low % combos, but that's about it. His easiest strings to land are still pretty hard to land on competent players. The most I ever get nowadays are fair -> fair and PKF -> something. His general lack of range is still a hurtful point. He's like a poor man's Wario in that aspect.

And, really, most importantly, once you figure out his strongest points and once you realize how much baiting he relies on, he's ridiculously easy to shut down. It's sick, and it's probably why he's seen as poor for the most part. The way this game was made ***** him. Decent moveset, but it's not going too far in a game like Brawl.

 

[KoSa!]

...Well, IDK what to say. I thought, a jiggly with a good projectile game, and stronger Bairs, and a spike, and a few more kill moves would make him good.

 

[kennypu]

Ness isn't totally bad, I would say he is pure average. He has a good moveset, especially his aerials, but the only problem is that there are other characters that can do better. For example, Ness's aerial game isn't going to beat out MetaKnights or Marth aerial game. His ground game will not match Kirby's ground game. Most of his smashes are slow, and because of that it is hard to link moves together properly with him. His specials are very nice, but again like Successor of Raph. said, since Brawl is defense based, the lags that his special propose makes him a very punishable character. His moves that come out quick are not the best moves in the world either.
That being said, if you use him right, and use these laggy moves only at the right time, ness can be a very good character.

...Well, IDK what to say. I thought, a jiggly with a good projectile game, and stronger Bairs, and a spike, and a few more kill moves would make him good.

Thats true, the only problem is ness doesn't have a good projectile game, atleast IMO. His pkf and pkt can really be spammed, but it will never be as good as say samus or TL's projectile game.

 

[PMKNG]

I honestly dont even think ness's special moves are that great, except for pkt which is good for juggling and mind games of course.

Pk fire is easy to di out of now for most opponents, if it hits since its not as "defensive" as say lucas's. Pk flash you need to really mindgame the **** out of someone to land it or get lucky, and psi magnet...cmon its not useful against characters who don't have projectiles.

Ness's lack of quick strong attacks, barely a projectile game, and lack of any real power hitting combos are whats holding him back. BUT, he still has awesome shoes.

 

[thesage]

People who say pk fire is good make me want to cut myself.

Honestly, I wrote up a lot of stuff giving general advice, but then I deleted it. This is all I'm going to say, stop deluding yourself on these bad moves like pk fire and d-tilt. They don't work in tournaments.

That's what everybody here should be doing, go to real tournaments. Not go to a friend's house. Not go some small local thing where everybody is crappy. Honestly. How many people play Ness in tournament? 9.

9.
9.

Quote from a sbr member who I talked to an aim: I don't really know anything about Ness and just rate him low since nobody uses him at all. You're the only one I've ever played.

Srsly, nobody knows anything about his playstyle at all.

STOP READING THIS FORUMS SERIOUSLY. THESE GIVE VERY BASIC ADVICE YOU LEARN IN THE FIRST 5 MINUTES OF A TOURNAMENT.

Everybody here is busy finding somebody to play online which is a joke. If that's all you can do since you can't go to offline tournaments fine. Just realize, nobody takes online seriously, except for some reason this place when it comes to determining tactics. Protip: these don't work IRL. >_>;

For the last time:

PK FIRE IS ****TY

1. It's mad easy to di out of
2. Marth can counter you out of it. He can just spam down b mindlessly and take 4%.
3. They can sheild in it.
4. If they're smart by the time your lag is over they're already out if it
5. Aerial pk fire is extremely predictable.
6. It's only good for pivot pk fire.
7. If they di out properly it does about 4%. With all the lag it has it only does that much damage?
8. It can set waddle dees on fire (the only redeemable feature).
9. Fair is a superior spacing tool in almost every single way.
10. pkt works better as a spammable projectile. It actually is possible to not be punished from using pkt if you are not dumb. Half the people I see using pkt use really dumb things that genearlly don't work. The most advanced things I've seen from most other people I've found in the first week. I'm surprised nobody else thought of circiling a shield while the opponent is on a platform. Everybody uses the same mindgames over and over again.
11. you can get hit by your opponent while their still being burned -.-

Ness is a semi-decent player blessed with ******** players.

Edit: Ness' bair and nair count as quick strong attacks.... That's not his problem. It's the fact that his matchups are generally hard to learn and once you (and your opponent) finally learn them it's up to player skill and not char. stuff at all (what I'm trying to say is that a large portion of his matchups are even with very few advantages, none of which are important). It's easier to main Snake, have easier matchups, and have an easier time learning the character. Melee Ness had a similar situation (though he only deserves to move up like 3 places at most [according to not me, I don't care about his tier position]).

Also, people should not get hung up on tier lists. At all. It is not a current representation of top level play. People should care more about tournament results IMO...

 

[xoxokev]

People who say pk fire is good make me want to cut myself.

Honestly, I wrote up a lot of stuff giving general advice, but then I deleted it. This is all I'm going to say, stop deluding yourself on these bad moves like pk fire and d-tilt. They don't work in tournaments.

That's what everybody here should be doing, go to real tournaments. Not go to a friend's house. Not go some small local thing where everybody is crappy. Honestly. How many people play Ness in tournament? 9.

9.
9.

Quote from a sbr member who I talked to an aim: I don't really know anything about Ness and just rate him low since nobody uses him at all. You're the only one I've ever played.

Srsly, nobody knows anything about his playstyle at all.

STOP READING THIS FORUMS SERIOUSLY. THESE GIVE VERY BASIC ADVICE YOU LEARN IN THE FIRST 5 MINUTES OF A TOURNAMENT.

Everybody here is busy finding somebody to play online which is a joke. If that's all you can do since you can't go to offline tournaments fine. Just realize, nobody takes online seriously, except for some reason this place when it comes to determining tactics.

For the last time:


PK FIRE IS ****TY

I've been to 2 tourneys so far, using Ness only... and have yet to advance. I know Ness is a bad character, but that doesn't stop me from using him

 

[LordoftheMorning]

I hate fighting Ness. And by that I mean I think he's annoyingly good. Like Pikachu is, but not quite as bad.

 

[thesage]

I've been to 2 tourneys so far, using Ness only... and have yet to advance. I know Ness is a bad character, but that doesn't stop me from using him

If your area is any good (and since you live CA it probably is) that is a good thing. Shows that you have good opponents. It took me 5 tournaments where I wasn't given a random bye to not place last... You improve in tournaments mostly by playing really good people as often as possible. That's why all the top pros are friends. They play each other often so they basically kept in prime by each other if you know what I mean. That's how Ref was able to advance so quickly, he played Bum a lot and probably attended more tournaments that I did. That's just how it works...

Anybody not in top 10 is a bad character basically.

 

[Wave⁂]

I... have no idea what to make of this thread. You guys have collectively restored and shattered my confidence in Ness.

Um...

 

[:mad:]

Ness sucks because our opponents don't.
They have overwhelming advantages because they use better characters. All we can do is just try our best.

There's no reason to ever quit Ness, just work on improving him.

 

[Uffe]

I have to disagree with you that PK Fire sucks when used in the air. Basically if you can pull off a PK Jump away from your opponent, you should be able to I guess lag cancel it and use whatever else attack necessary. Another thing is that if PK Fire lands from above, chances are they're going to have a difficult time escaping it. No, I'm not using wifi as "experience" of this, either. They may be able to DI out of it, but it'll sure get more damage down and if you get that lag cancel in there, then you're not totally screwed.

If using PK Fire in the air is extremely predictable, I can only wonder how predictable it is on the ground. Another thing is that pivoting PK Fire fails me quite a lot. Usually by the time I go and do that, my opponent is in the air and I'm left open. I feel like a liar for telling people to pivot that because it's good. It may be better than just a regular PK Fire, but it's just as predictable. Overall, PK Fire is worthless like you said.

 

[TRAMD]

I don't know what makes him so BAD but he definitely is one of the BADDEST MOFOS I've seen!

 

[thesage]

Meh, it's easier for me to land pivot pk fire than aerial pk fire. Just because a move has no ending lag, doesn't automatically make it good (bowser's flame cancel in melee lol).

Pk fire is useful for edgeguarding though. That's something I need to learn. CAZCOMBO!

 

[kennypu]

People who say pk fire is good make me want to cut myself.

Honestly, I wrote up a lot of stuff giving general advice, but then I deleted it. This is all I'm going to say, stop deluding yourself on these bad moves like pk fire and d-tilt. They don't work in tournaments.

That's what everybody here should be doing, go to real tournaments. Not go to a friend's house. Not go some small local thing where everybody is crappy. Honestly. How many people play Ness in tournament? 9.

9.
9.

Quote from a sbr member who I talked to an aim: I don't really know anything about Ness and just rate him low since nobody uses him at all. You're the only one I've ever played.

Srsly, nobody knows anything about his playstyle at all.

STOP READING THIS FORUMS SERIOUSLY. THESE GIVE VERY BASIC ADVICE YOU LEARN IN THE FIRST 5 MINUTES OF A TOURNAMENT.

Everybody here is busy finding somebody to play online which is a joke. If that's all you can do since you can't go to offline tournaments fine. Just realize, nobody takes online seriously, except for some reason this place when it comes to determining tactics. Protip: these don't work IRL. >_>;

For the last time:

PK FIRE IS ****TY

1. It's mad easy to di out of
2. Marth can counter you out of it. He can just spam down b mindlessly and take 4%.
3. They can sheild in it.
4. If they're smart by the time your lag is over they're already out if it
5. Aerial pk fire is extremely predictable.
6. It's only good for pivot pk fire.
7. If they di out properly it does about 4%. With all the lag it has it only does that much damage?
8. It can set waddle dees on fire (the only redeemable feature).
9. Fair is a superior spacing tool in almost every single way.
10. pkt works better as a spammable projectile. It actually is possible to not be punished from using pkt if you are not dumb. Half the people I see using pkt use really dumb things that genearlly don't work. The most advanced things I've seen from most other people I've found in the first week. I'm surprised nobody else thought of circiling a shield while the opponent is on a platform. Everybody uses the same mindgames over and over again.
11. you can get hit by your opponent while their still being burned -.-

Ness is a semi-decent player blessed with ******** players.

Edit: Ness' bair and nair count as quick strong attacks.... That's not his problem. It's the fact that his matchups are generally hard to learn and once you (and your opponent) finally learn them it's up to player skill and not char. stuff at all (what I'm trying to say is that a large portion of his matchups are even with very few advantages, none of which are important). It's easier to main Snake, have easier matchups, and have an easier time learning the character. Melee Ness had a similar situation (though he only deserves to move up like 3 places at most [according to not me, I don't care about his tier position]).

Also, people should not get hung up on tier lists. At all. It is not a current representation of top level play. People should care more about tournament results IMO...

No offense, but I would have to disagree with your hatred with pkf. Everything else you've said is just about right, if the opponent is just out right good, it would be difficult to fight them with ness. But pkf is totally useful, if you watch any of my videos you see me spamming them like crazy.
1. Yes, it is easy to DI out of, but it doesn't mean you can't chase them during/after they get out.
2. I'm also glad you mentioned Marth's counter, my friend does that a lot. Marths can also up-B out of it, although you wouldn't want to obviously. Anyways if they are the time that counters when you get near, just shield grab or follow up with any other move.
3. This is irrelevant, because you can shield any move other than grabs. common sense?
4.If you lag cancel, or pkf out of an aerial and lag cancel it, you can chain to other moves. Same if you are right next to them when you lag, but obviously if they DI out you're in danger.
5.It's not totally predictable if done right, and can also prevent edge guarders if high enough, and hits.
6. On the ground, I agree with this. LOL.
7. Not only about damaging them, but placing them/ pressuring them how you want to.
8. very true, lol. **** gordos though.
9. In the air maybe, but in ground game not really because pkfs can chain into much powerful combos. such as pkf->bat, pkf->dthrow,etc.
10. true
11. thats why you memorize their moveset and know if they can hit you while burning or not.

Also to mention I go to the official tourney here in my area every month, and place nywhere between 13-17 in a average 40 people tourney, so I'm sure I know what i'm talking about.

 

[Uffe]

Meh, it's easier for me to land pivot pk fire than aerial pk fire. Just because a move has no ending lag, doesn't automatically make it good (bowser's flame cancel in melee lol).

Pk fire is useful for edgeguarding though. That's something I need to learn. CAZCOMBO!

CAZCOMBO
CAZCOMBO
CAZCOMBO

Seriously. Why haven't I bothered with that? Overall, I guess it really depends on how the player uses PKF that makes it seem useful. I'm going to be honest. I used to think PKF was a pointless attack. But after fighting different Ness', I kept finding myself getting hit by that attack. Basically I forced myself to learn how to use it just like them.

 

[Levitas]

But in all seriousness, Ness's pk fire is kind of bad.

Limited range, you can't use it at a range while moving(retreating), it takes more than twice the reaction time of a decent person to start hitting, and moves kinda slow, and the fire doesn't really lead into anything on characters that aren't big.

Really, it's good if they're in a LOT of lag and are big. That's pretty much it.

Also, sage, while I don't use ness in brackets, I consistently use him against various tournament level players. I hope that people take what I say at least somewhat seriously, because I've been playing ness in tournaments as long as anyone here. I'm talking melee.

 

[xoxokev]

FYI pivot PK Fires can be done while running...

Also, PK Fire can set more than just Waddle Dees on fire...

Practical applications of fire pillars:
-Snake's grenades/proximity mines
-The columns of Luigi's Mansion
-Those weird elastic things that hold up the platforms on Brinstar
-The breakable ground on Brinstar
-Olimar's pikmin
-Grounded bombs from Link/Toon Link
-Wario's bike

Not so practical applications of the fire pillar:
-Samus' bombs (I think it has to hit as the bomb explodes)
-Pikachu's thunder jolt
-Link's/Toon Link's arrows & boomerangs
-Rob's gyro
-Peach's turnips
-Mario's/Luigi's fireballs

 

[Uffe]

Done with running? Really? How do you pull that off?

 

[xoxokev]

Done with running? Really? How do you pull that off?

I stole this from PK Cross:

Firedash

The most useful way to utilize B-reversing for Ness is out of a dash. I call this the Firesdash. This is VERY useful on defense. It's like a PK Pivot, only you can use it ANYWHERE during a dash, meaning you can run VERY far and turn around to counter! Now PKF can counter anywhere during a dash period.

To do Firedash, dash forward, press B while holding forward, then backwards VERY quickly, almost as if you are pressing them at the same time. Done correctly, you should turn around mid dash and use PKF.

You are actually running forward and using PKF forwards, but then turning it around producing the Firedash effect. Just remember to press back AFTER you hit forward B.

 

[Uffe]

It looks like I'll have to try that out later. I've been putting myself at too much risk attempting this in a match and well, I ended up chasing my opponent instead.

 

[Levitas]

Don't call it a firedash. It's just a b reversal out of a run. Anyone can do this with pretty much any special.

 

[AvariceX]

I really want to hear ViceGrip's opinion on this PK-Fire debate. I hear he spams it >_>

edit: Something to know about PK-Fire: If you ever find yourself facing Ally, do not under any circumstance use PK-Fire.

 

[SlipperyNess]

The Olimar boards posted a nice description of how to do b-reversals while running that I found really helpful. Someone said, its like you B-move in the direction of the run, then instantly flick your "Pikmin" the opposite directions. As if you decided last minute to throw it over your shoulder instead of of forward. For some reason, that visual helped, and it made what seemed like odd timing, easier.

Hope it helps...although its not a particularly hard move to pull off.

 

[PMKNG]

Im confused, so this thing is a pivot but where you actually move/dash farther?
I'll try it out.


I still think pkfire is not that useful, but I forgot to mention in my last post. Pk Fire is TO ME mainly a stalling move. It doesn't even have to hit.

Opponent Approaches>pk fire> hit>4%> thats like 2 seconds (we as ness's can then approach etc)
Opponent Approaches>pk fire>shielded> gives us a few seconds to think of another approach or defensive manuever.
Of course some characters if theyre close enough when they shield can sometimes grab you right away...like say DDD.

~_~ imo ness's most useful ground moves are his ftilt. man that has such a nice range and odd killing power if fresh

 

[SlipperyNess]

You don't move/dash farther (maybe a minuscule amount probably in the direction of your run...). You just stop dead, and pk fire while turning around, the turn around happens slightly later than the button input, so it can be surprising. Though its not nearly as dramatic as Ganandorf's or Captain Falcons reversal of their punches.

I rarely use pk fire grounded compared to in the air.

Fun fact: you can DJC b-stick a pk fire as someone approaches you from below and land a pk fire on their head...for pesky jugglers. Basically if your above and slightly to one side of someone and DJC a B-Sticked PK fire you end up rather far away and the flames end up on their scalp, which is definitely the hardest place to DI out of. And you can lag cancel this depending on your height.

The nice thing about that is that it looks like you're going to do an aerial, based on the way you approach.

 

[Levitas]

I think this topic came out of me saying you can't move while using ness's pk fire at full range, which is still true. Lucas can move 1/3 of FD's length backwards because he's in the air. The best Ness can do is a small hop backwards while the PK fire goes down at a 45 degree angle, severely limiting its range and amplifying its lag.

I really don't like Ness's pk fire as a whole, but really, whatever works for you guys.

Also, slipperyNess, welcome to smashboards ^_^ You referenced what we've been calling firebounding here. It turns out that the inputs are identical for the firebound and lucas's zap jump, and require frame perfect inputs.