Why is Falco "even" with Marth?

[Drolian]

-_-;; Some people even say that Marth is countered by Falco.

In my personal experience and humble opinion, I really think that Marth counters Falco.

*Falco is easily edgeguarded my Marth
*Marth's grab range is extremely long
*can be chainthrown by Marth
*Marth's moves are fast, ranged, and high-priority, like his aerials and tilts, which can hinder Falco's approach
*disjointed hitbox keeps Falco away...(unless you use lasers...but...)
*Falco is easily combo'd by Marth, usually ending in a fatal tipper, due to Falco's easily combo'd...ness and his poor recovery

And in my opinion, Falco is ***** on "three platform stages" by Marth, with the exception of Dreamland64. The only reason I can think of why Falco can put up a fight with Marth is lasers, combos (even still, Marth isn't that easy to combo, IMO, especially on 3 platform stages) and edgeguarding (somewhat).

I dunno, I just can't play against Marths. =/ Please tell me if my points are wrong.

 

[TheKneeOfJustice]

The worst of the platform stages is Yoshi's Story. Everything else there is enough space you counter chain grabbing, and formulate a good a good approach. When playing Marth is use "laser spacing." That is, until I'm comfortable that I can combo undisrupted from a grab, I laser camp and do short-hopped nairs and dairs through his shield.

 

[crescentia]

Platforms or no, Falco combos Marth like it's his job.

Oh wait, it is.

The answer to your problems is mindgames.

 

[bornfidelity.com]

The only reason I can think of why Falco can put up a fight with Marth is lasers, combos (even still, Marth isn't that easy to combo, IMO, especially on 3 platform stages) and edgeguarding (somewhat).

Lasers own Marth. Combos own Marth. Even picking Yoshi's Story vs Marth, owns Marth. Falco owns Marth. Done?

 

[Drolian]

I guess you guys are right, it is kinda easy to combo Marth. I just have problems with Marth, no matter who I am. >_>

But...didn't Masashi counterpick Bombsoldier with Marth?

 

[bluezaft]

And got owned.

 

[Drolian]

...True. XD, but he tried to "counter-pick", anyway, I'd also like to add that Marth has strong grab combos on Falco. >_>

But...I see why they're even...kinda.

 

[H@wK]

Dude, Falco owns Marth.

Lazorz, you force the oponent to PS, which probably will fail. If you got Lcancel down, SHFFL >> Shine won't fail. Also Fsmash in Yoshi Story is god tier....... cause Chuck Norris and Bornfidelity said so.

 

[Drolian]

Yeah, I can L-cancel, shine combo, etc...

I guess it's just me. Or my mindgames, if I have any.

 

[Mr. Derp]

...because you can get out of his chaingrab at 18% (at least, thats the earliest I've ever done it)

 

[Kamui]

As its put "laser spacing" is the best way to keep Marth at bay. If he blocks and waits for the shield grab simply shffl a dair or my preference the nair into a shine and start pillaring or rushing his shield until he rolls and chase after him. Rinse and repeat. Marth can also beat the crap out of falco but depending on skill and with enough correct spacing you can overtake marth.

 

[booshk]

As its put "laser spacing" is the best way to keep Marth at bay. If he blocks and waits for the shield grab simply shffl a dair or my preference the nair into a shine and start pillaring or rushing his shield until he rolls and chase after him. Rinse and repeat. Marth can also beat the crap out of falco but depending on skill and with enough correct spacing you can overtake marth.

this is why they are even.
match starts.
falco laser approaches. pillars marth and gets in his shield , gets a shine in, double jumps into a d-air and u-tilt , continues with a n-air. tech chases marth and throws him near the ledge of stage falco runs to marth and for a running smash. marth shield grabs. 0-death chaingrab.

 

[tarheeljks]

platform stages are falco's friend.

 

[invertigo]

how do you get out of chaingrab?

 

[Shichi_Chan]

IMO they go even. Marth has 0 to death combos on Falco ASSUMING he can get the **** grab on you. But these combos are also negated by DI-ing to an edge then taking a U-Tilt. Marth also has Down + B (Counter)

Falco has lasers. Lasers > Marth. Mindgames do too. ;o

 

[Drolian]

I don't like it when people use "mindgames" as a response. >_>

Anyway, thanks everyone, I'm holding up better against Marths now.

Which way should I DI if a Marth grabs me?

I also need to work on my smash DI, it always die too quickly.

 

[terr13]

DI randomly, to the left and to the right. At around 40%, stop DIing and try to shine them or Dair them. DIing at that percentage will most likely get you killed.

 

[Mogwai]

DI randomly, to the left and to the right. At around 40%, stop DIing and try to shine them or Dair them. DIing at that percentage will most likely get you killed.

for the love of god, don't try to dair them. ALWAYS shine to get out of CG. It's coming out time is 1 frame, fastest in the game by virtue of there being no whole numbers less than 1, so if you want to get out ASAP, use shine. The stop DIing advice is also crucial, as that tipper is murder at those %s.

As for the random direction advice, that's fairly sound, though certain marths have trouble CGing if you di backwards, or di slightly backwards. The slight backwards di works best for me, but either way, if you're predictable, and the marth is competent, they will be able to CG you.

Best advice though:

Don't Get Grabbed
Easier said than done, but this is the surest way to make a marth's life difficult. Falco's advantages on marth (SHL, comboing, speed) are things that marth has trouble hindering. Marth's advantages on falco (range, detatched hitbox, grab combos) are also things that falco has trouble hindering, with the exception of grabbing. Good spacing with the laser, and knowing how and when to approach a Marth is crucial in this matchup, since his biggest advantage is the lethal grab combo. If you can minimize this advantage, you will be able to hold your own against marths. That means don't try to be BS against marths, going all in on comboing will get you killed. Use your range and speed to get them in disadvantageous positions, and then make them pay with combos.

 

[Miharu]

At around 60/70%, don't DI all the way to the left or right, since that will guarantee a tipper for the Marth, and if you're not DIing up or down at that point, you'll die. So DI up if you know you're going to get tippered by fsmash.

 

[FaceLoran]

I dont understand why you find it difficult to combo Marth on platform stages? That actually tends to help Falco's combos on Marth, it allows him to use the platforms as a quicker landing site for his shine to spike combos.

 

[Mogwai]

I dont understand why you find it difficult to combo Marth on platform stages? That actually tends to help Falco's combos on Marth, it allows him to use the platforms as a quicker landing site for his shine to spike combos.

This is completely true. Anyone who says that platforms make combos harder for falco just needs to play more on platform levels, and learn to improvise better. Platforms are a comboer's best friend and let you extend combos that should have died out long ago. The only people I've met who think that platforms make shine comboing harder are the people who are completely set on their FD combos and can't adapt to multidimensional terrain.

 

[B-Will]

Yes, platforms are too good for falco. I love platform stages. Nothing is more satisfying than double dairs off of platforms. Shines sets combos up perfectly because shines usually pop the opponent to platform height then you can continue the combo with another dair or whatever.

Platforms are generally falco's best friend.

 

[Drolian]

I'm playing better on platforms now, thanks. Wesley and B-Will, thanks for the really good advice, but...FoD doesn't seem to like me very much, the platforms messup my SHL, waveshine, rolls, and always seem to appear below me, letting the Marth F-smash or up-tilt me..

Also, for grabbing, my friend sometimes up-grabs and F-smash at random percentages and catches my DI. =/

 

[AS Money]

i think ill quote drephan-"he can do 12 moves before i can do 1" speaking about dope's falco

though drephan plays sheik(faster than marth) the same applies and marth is easly comboed by falco and a lot of other characters too hes not that good and the platform stages you seem to dread also eliminate chaingrabbing and also reasons listed by other people

 

[Mr. Derp]

you cant smash Di throws, unless the opponent actually hits you during the move, i.e. peach f-throw, jiggs f-throw. However, you can use good ol' fashion plain DI. DI up, never left or right, at the perfect time, that beautiful 1 frame shine can hit marth's head before he can grab. However, I'm no DI expert so the DI up may not even do anything considering its the direction your being throw anyway. I say this because a couple of time when I've been playing my buddys marth I havent DI'd at all and I've gotten out through properly timed shine. If you want to see basically the same thing being done to fox, watch the matches between pc and m2k from fc6. he does it in both of the matches on final dest.

 

[NusCirtap]

If both falco and marth are on the mid/lower levels then I'd say even or maybe even falco has an advantage. But really good marths have advantage over really good falcos. When I fight PC's marth with my falco he just power shields all of my lasers which is ridiculous. He also stated that no falco can take out his marth. Also cort's marth has some sick edge guarding versus falcos now, if you ever use firebird for recovery he just counters me which is hard to tech/sweetspot or he jumps off and forward b's me until I can't get back while he can. Like jiggs constant dropping fair. He can also jump down and reverse dolphin slash me after countering my firebird recovery (assuming it isn't teched which is hard).

 

[Mr. Derp]

ahh the legendary double counter, pretty hardocore gays falco. dont really have a way around that one, just dont get edge-fagged/thrown off early. near perfect power shielding is that one inhuman thing that no one has realy tried to learn but if pc has then he has effectively taken away a big part of your game. however, there is always an answer in this game, mindgames. when you would normally go for a rshl, just run away and do a backwwards short hop and waveland it towarrds him. when you would normally shl towards him throw, in an empty short hop and when he goes to shield, grab him. keep working this stuff in and it should start to make him unsure of when to power shield, thuis decreasing his ability to powershield.

 

[NusCirtap]

Are you giving me advice on how to fight PC cause either way I'll just lose anyways. -_-

 

[Mr. Derp]

well, my advice might work if it werent pc... are you saying he dosent miss a single powershield? i just fiind that hard to beleive.

 

[Mogwai]

I'm playing better on platforms now, thanks. Wesley and B-Will, thanks for the really good advice, but...FoD doesn't seem to like me very much, the platforms messup my SHL, waveshine, rolls, and always seem to appear below me, letting the Marth F-smash or up-tilt me..

Also, for grabbing, my friend sometimes up-grabs and F-smash at random percentages and catches my DI. =/

FoD is a tricky stage to play on. Here's the advice that Mathos gave me when I was hating on it:

When the platforms are low enough to screw up your approach, use them as a shield to camp SHL.

This works miracles and lets you play a super gay, but very effective style. The trick is to not get over-zealous about approaching them, and use the stage to your advantage. There's more to it, since the stage is always changing, but don't get ahead of yourself and stay more defensive. This little clip is a bit old and watching it again makes me embarassed for both myself and KWalk, but it shows my general theory of how to play on FoD:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k7ltpeuFVN0
Sorry for the ****ty everything in that vid, but it should give you a starting point for how to play on FoD.

well, my advice might work if it werent pc... are you saying he dosent miss a single powershield? i just fiind that hard to beleive.

Believe it. I've play Magus, a guy who's not even close to as well known as PC(not to take away from him at all),and he could do it on command. If someone practices it enough, they can Powershield at will.

 

[P.c. Chris]

i dont powersheild from far away, i combo running PS into grab which basically suxs for falco LOL but i think falco vs marth is extremely even

 

[falco_4_life]

i dont powersheild from far away, i combo running PS into grab which basically suxs for falco LOL but i think falco vs marth is extremely even

U like da first person i ever heard say that.(unless someone already said it on this thread) I could of swarn falca had some kind of huge advantage over Marth. I guess dats because u always b ****ing wit dem pros at every tourney. i don't know wat da hell i'de do if i went up against ken.

 

[falco-hokage]

dont let marth dash dance by using ur laser and u will have a mean advantage

 

[McCloud]

It's like bringing a sword to a gun fight.


Oh wait.

 

[angelspe3d]

Marth owns Falco

 

[falco-hokage]

chaingrab is all marth has on falco ex. bs vs ken he owned bs cuz of the cg but when bs got out of it he owned him with combos thatstarted with those little bright lights^_^

 

[P.c. Chris]

Its an extremely even matchup, it can go either way . I find usually falco's that prefer fighting fastfallers (ones who usually are technical and Combo crazy and sh*t) seem to have a harder time fighting marth. The falcos that prefer fighting peach, samus, jiggly and the other floaty characters have usally an easier time with marth. I mean it can go either way. If you dont know what your doing of course your going to get CG'd to death and get *****, i myself usually use marth vs the falcos who i see are techy and remind me of a robot becuase its just a lot easier and safer then trying to beat them in a falco ditto. Falco is easily punished yeah, but its hard to get that oppurtunity in when an aggresive yet smart falco is approaching with lasers and perefectly l cancled dairs and nairs not to mention its a b*tch for marth to fight a spamming falco -_- But even tho it seems liek falco is just too overwhelming for marth , when the falco does get grabbed or makes that one mistake marth can punish him soooooo eeasy, low dmg gay kills vs falco isnt very rare that can make it tough.
But all in all i'd have to say its a fairly even matchup . If anything its slightly in falcos favor but not nearly enough to consider him a counter. I've played all the best marth players in the country , i think i have the most experience vs marth in big tournament sets having played ken, azen and the other good marth players.

 

[Mr. Derp]

P.C. maybe you oculd help out, I've bneen learning how to get out of marth's cg extremely early (18% early) I'm not that consistent with it yet, but I usually try to DI up when I'm thrown, but I sometimes get out when not presing on the control stick at all. is there any point to the Di up or is it all about timing the shine to hit before marth can grab again? I know you cant smash DI throws, but can they be ASDI'd? Is getting out this early anything new or am I behind as usual? thanks

edit: anyone else who is known for thier smash knowledge, magus, m2k, or anyone on the boards who thinks he has the answer is welcome to tell me

 

[leviathan_]

Throws can ONLY be "proper DIed," meaning just with the direction of the control stick. That's all. If you're getting out of Marth's CG as early as 18% ... your opponent(s) probably isn't good at CGing or he just wanted to give you a shot .

You should ALWAYS DI perpendicular to the trajectory of the attack. Don't DI up on an up throw, left and right are your best options.


In terms of PS, since I suck at doing this I tend to NOT do this ...even though PC Chris does heh. I approach the foe with waveshield knowing that most Falco people have trouble with consistent SHL.

 

[NusCirtap]

There are falcos that like fighting peach? Lies.