Why is everyone just jumping on the Lucina is better than Marth Band Wagon?

[EternalFlame]

Did you read the post I linked to? Specifically:

aah ok ok xD I didn't realize the yellow text was a link. That clears up a whole bunch. Now the question is if that statement is true or not, as Shaya is still testing it according to the post, and we still need more dedicated Lucina players to back up the statement.

I personally don't use FH Fairs, so I've never really been put in that position. May be worth testing later

 

[kro_]

If Marth is a spacing character, you don't want to keep enemies closer than the absolute max of your range, meaning landing tippers should be farily easy.

 

[Tsukihi Araragi]

True that, but at least he can stall in the air a bit with it, and is good at setups and mixups. Plus we have the Shield breaker which helps tremendously with recovery I find. Knowing to work with the knockback is the key to making Marth function better I'd say, and as I use him now, I don't find his knockback too much of a problem (granted I use setups that don't force much knockback, even at high percents xD).

I still die sometimes out of doing DB in the midair omfg. Some things just stick to you. I'd prefer it if his grabs didn't have so much knock back like in brawl, makes it easier to land a few hits.

 

[Shaya]

Marth with his back to the ledge is actually really scary, despite what that video shows. Marth isn't afraid of anyone off stage. And a scenario where he doesn't get pushed off while in shield allows him to time jump punishes very easily.

Marth never combo'd anyone. The lack of ability for characters to do specials or air dodge out of tumble in melee meant that we could generally always follow up as opponent's didn't have a means of not getting hit. But see: Peach/Samus, they can get nair out before any second hit we can get on them (even if we still hit them because swords > legs/hands)
Chain grabs/random based sakurai throw balance (like seriously, anyone with marth's up throw in melee would've bopped spacies to death) is gone, but we never deserved it anyway.

But yes, fast fall uair has been a thing for Marth forever. People should not pretend it's new nor claim it to be remotely close to a better option than a 9 frame 1/3rd of FD length 14% damage punishment tool (if you include a dash) is significantly better than somehow convincing your opponent to respect you enough to dash towards them and then from the ground do a short hop fast fall up air.

And everything that this guy says that Lucina can do better is a lie except shield breaker (it has very respectable kill power, and doesn't require it to tip)

 

[EternalFlame]

I still die sometimes out of doing DB in the midair omfg. Some things just stick to you. I'd prefer it if his grabs didn't have so much knock back like in brawl, makes it easier to land a few hits.

Yeah, it really depends on the mindset that you use the character with, and what works and what doesn't.Those DB SDs happen from time to time, but its something we get use to. Yeah, I would have liked it if the knockback wasn't so strong from grabs, but I can work with it, just like a lot of us are doing now.

Marth with his back to the ledge is actually really scary, despite what that video shows. Marth isn't afraid of anyone off stage. And a scenario where he doesn't get pushed off while in shield allows him to time jump punishes very easily.

Marth never combo'd anyone. The lack of ability for characters to do specials or air dodge out of tumble in melee meant that we could generally always follow up as opponent's didn't have a means of not getting hit. But see: Peach/Samus, they can get nair out before any second hit we can get on them (even if we still hit them because swords > legs/hands)
Chain grabs/random based sakurai throw balance (like seriously, anyone with marth's up throw in melee would've bopped spacies to death) is gone, but we never deserved it anyway.

But yes, fast fall uair has been a thing for Marth forever. People should not pretend it's new nor claim it to be remotely close to a better option than a 9 frame 1/3rd of FD length 14% damage punishment tool (if you include a dash) is significantly better than somehow convincing your opponent to respect you enough to dash towards them and then from the ground do a short hop fast fall up air.

And everything that this guy says that Lucina can do better is a lie except shield breaker (it has very respectable kill power, and doesn't require it to tip)

If anything, Smash 4 really shows what combos and what doesn't in practice mode, as anyone has the opportunity to act out of the setups, it just depends on the timing that they have to do it. I still test out my setups against opponents to see how well they react to them and if they can get out of them.

Though quick question, what's the abbreviation FD mean? xD

 

[DDDchu]

I like her because she looks cool, otherwise then she is like a little fast Marth to me.

 

[LordShade67]

Though quick question, what's the abbreviation FD mean? xD

Final Destination. Because let's face it. It's just easier to abbreviate it.

 

[EternalFlame]

Final Destination. Because let's face it. It's just easier to abbreviate it.

Yeah, being new comes with the silly questions here and there about abbreviations, basic strategies, etc. I'll get it at some point xD

 

[Conda]

I like her because she looks cool, otherwise then she is like a little fast Marth to me.

She is not faster, her feet just seem to move faster animation wise when running.

 

[Wraeith]

And everything that this guy says that Lucina can do better is a lie except shield breaker (it has very respectable kill power, and doesn't require it to tip)

In fairness, due to the nature of Shield Breaker's thrust, I believe tipping with it is pretty common. Although I'd like to see the statistical differences between Marth's tipped SB and Lucina's before passing much judgement.

While on this topic, I've seen a few different punishes for breaking someone's shield; is there a general consensus on what would be better between tipped f-smash/SB or perhaps a percent-dependant combo/string?

 

[Tsukihi Araragi]

Yeah, it really depends on the mindset that you use the character with, and what works and what doesn't.Those DB SDs happen from time to time, but its something we get use to. Yeah, I would have liked it if the knockback wasn't so strong from grabs, but I can work with it, just like a lot of us are doing now.

Sometimes I SD using DB because of the dreaded 3DS thumbpad. "I'm just gonna B up so that I can- oh ffs".

 

[Blue Warrior]

Chicks are better than girly men.

 

[Tsukihi Araragi]

Chicks are better than girly men.

Marth was a trap before I knew what a trap was.

 

[Deitylight]

Marth was a trap before I knew what a trap was.

This is a trap?

 

[Tsukihi Araragi]

This is a trap?

not here

 

[Dyguren]

I love how ppl discuss a character being better than other, when in a game like this, what defines a character being good is how good you play as him/her.

 

[Signia]

I love how ppl discuss a character being better than other, when in a game like this, what defines a character being good is how good you play as him/her.

As long as there are differences in characters, there will be differences in how strong characters are. It's those differences that define character strength, not whatever you just made up there.

 

[Conda]

I love how ppl discuss a character being better than other, when in a game like this, what defines a character being good is how good you play as him/her.

This is one of the most empty statements someone can make when talking about a game.

 

[Dyguren]

As long as there are differences in characters, there will be differences in how strong characters are. It's those differences that define character strength, not whatever you just made up there.

This is one of the most empty statements someone can make when talking about a game.

Right ...so if a character is better than another, then it doesn't matter how good you are at a character who is not "better" than another because you're gonna still have more chances to lose as the "better" character? Do you really think that they would develop characters that can't put a balanced fight between each others? sure in a less important fighting game with less proffesional teams that's what would happen, but we are talking about smash bros here, characters might be different but there is no "better" character than another, that doesn't exist in smash. I think i know who clearly are making empty statements here...it's clearly not me. Bye bye

 

[Emblem Lord]

You are objectively wrong. You are going to tell me Ganondorf is equal to Sheik?
Are you being serious?

All games have tiers. Sports games and racing games too. Its impossible to perfectly balance a game. Humans are not perfect. We are flawed. Anything we create will be flawed as well.

 

[JediSange]

Ugh. I hate when people talk about balance in a really informal way. Leads to a lot of people's opinions getting thrown around about something that is far from opinion. From a computer science stand point, balance is deterministic. There are situations you can react to and ways to play safe that puts you on an objectively better path than other choices you can make. Can you argue there is an element of "yomi" to this? Absolutely. But think about Pichu/Marth in Melee. That was 10/90, at best.

Anyways -- I'm interested to know about the combo variance between Marth/Lucina. Training mode is pretty balls, and I don't have many friends into Smash 4 locally. My running theory is that Lucina can actually combo better due to her mid-range knockback. It leaves them at just the right range -- not too far, not too close. At least, the matches that I've played with her I'm able to continue my air combos quite a bit more (pending they don't air dodge, etc). I'm still of the opinion that Marth is better, but thought it was worth starting a discussion about.

 

[Signia]

Do you really think that they would develop characters that can't put a balanced fight between each others? sure in a less important fighting game with less proffesional teams that's what would happen, but we are talking about smash bros here, characters might be different but there is no "better" character than another, that doesn't exist in smash.

Look, I can tell that you are very young and still have naive optimism toward the abilities of game developers and the "importance" of Smash Bros., but they don't care that much about balance. They even prioritize FFA balance over 1v1 balance.

You seem to agree that characters are very different. How are they different? Well, they have different attacks, size, weight, movement speed, and a bunch of other things. Some characters have strong projectiles, some characters have strong Smash attacks, some characters move very fast, some hit harder, some hit really really hard, etc. But how could anyone adjust these strengths and weaknesses so that everyone is perfectly equal, despite the fact that they are different?

This goes back to what I said before. Where there is difference, there is difference in strength. The only way to completely balance a game would be to reduce its complexity until each and every option's risk and reward can be calculated and balanced. But neither risk nor reward are easy to define when it comes to each and every variation. Just how fast does a character's run speed have to be to make up for low knockback, for example?

Otherwise, there is no guarantee that different sets of options are balanced. You wanna make claim that Smash 4 is perfectly balanced? You better prove it, cuz right now you look to be embarrassingly wrong.

 

[EternalFlame]

Right ...so if a character is better than another, then it doesn't matter how good you are at a character who is not "better" than another because you're gonna still have more chances to lose as the "better" character? Do you really think that they would develop characters that can't put a balanced fight between each others? sure in a less important fighting game with less proffesional teams that's what would happen, but we are talking about smash bros here, characters might be different but there is no "better" character than another, that doesn't exist in smash. I think i know who clearly are making empty statements here...it's clearly not me. Bye bye

This is one of the most empty statements someone can make when talking about a game.

You are objectively wrong. You are going to tell me Ganondorf is equal to Sheik?
Are you being serious?

All games have tiers. Sports games and racing games too. Its impossible to perfectly balance a game. Humans are not perfect. We are flawed. Anything we create will be flawed as well.

All games have tiers, but I think the point we should focus on was missed. In the spirit of fighting games in general, tiers represent the highest level of play with a character - not what the average player, or even competitive player can replicate with ease. It takes time and determination to reach that level of perfection, and yet, all the knowhow on the tiers does not define a match's outcome. No matter how inherently stronger a character may be over another, this base difference does not equate to a complete victory.

People place not only their character strength into the equation, but also their personality, adaptability, and overall determination to defeat their opponent (i.e. the fighting game spirit of a player). Ideally Shiek vs Ganondorf is in Shiek's favor, but that will never determine that Shiek will always win. Probability is against Ganondorf, but there are so many variables in fighters that can easily change the tide of battle.

So @ Dyguren , the point of discussion was on Lucina vs Marth based on their properties alone. Based on the character properties alone, Marth is stronger for now (who knows how the tiers will shift).

@ Conda , Dyguren's statement carries some truth, despite his misinterpretations of the question at hand. If choices were based on tiers alone, it would indeed be a sad game - if you could even call it that on the basis of the only goal was to win. Because of all the variables above, I am willing to defend Dyguren's point that a character's true worth will rely on the players and how they use them. The spirit of a fighting game player can overcome any tier advantages there are. If that were not the case, no one would be relatively interest in the fighting game genre if one character based on stats alone always determined victory with absolutely no means of losing.

@ Emblem Lord make's a good point that there will never be such a thing as true game balance - tis human nature to err. But from how I've read your post, you also recognize the main problem with the statement Dyguren made. The discussion was based on character properties alone, if both were played at maximum ability - disregarding the human factor to the equation. It is because we are human as well, that tier lists do not define the outcome of the fight.

...

Anyways -- I'm interested to know about the combo variance between Marth/Lucina. Training mode is pretty balls, and I don't have many friends into Smash 4 locally. My running theory is that Lucina can actually combo better due to her mid-range knockback. It leaves them at just the right range -- not too far, not too close. At least, the matches that I've played with her I'm able to continue my air combos quite a bit more (pending they don't air dodge, etc). I'm still of the opinion that Marth is better, but thought it was worth starting a discussion about.

In terms of Combo-ability, it depends on Tipper/nonTipper hits with Marth, while Lucina is consistent with her knockback. I'm yet to really mess around with Lucina, but from my initial tests, Lucina has an easier time linking Fairs due to consistent knockback. On the same note though, her consistent knockback gets in the way of certain setups I use with Marth, on the basis that I rely on the lower knockback from non-tippers. But alot of the combos I know are interchangable between the two.

Both of them still aren't geared for combos, so it'll just come down to personal preference and the time you spend with them.

 

[Shaya]

Right ...so if a character is better than another, then it doesn't matter how good you are at a character who is not "better" than another because you're gonna still have more chances to lose as the "better" character? Do you really think that they would develop characters that can't put a balanced fight between each others? sure in a less important fighting game with less proffesional teams that's what would happen, but we are talking about smash bros here, characters might be different but there is no "better" character than another, that doesn't exist in smash. I think i know who clearly are making empty statements here...it's clearly not me. Bye bye

Hello Friend.
Your posts seem nothing more than "tyres don exist xD" and posts like that are ones that get infracted for spamming or trolling; they're a load of bull **** and add nothing to a discussion other than to derail (congratulations, you derailed this thread, hence why we Moderate people making such idiotic statements usually). You seem new to smashboards, smash and probably competitive gaming in general, so I didn't think it was worthwhile harping on you. But you're now being illogical and nonsensical after people have taken the time to explain things to you. If you continue to be like that, you shouldn't be on smashboards.

I'll start to consider anything else you say with such ignorance as trolling.

 

[herbmaster%]

i like the fact that i can choose not to have a tipped sword if i don't feel like it. plus, lucina's bae.

 

[BBC7]

i like the fact that i can choose not to have a tipped sword if i don't feel like it. plus, lucina's bae.

**** that word m8

 

[Warlock*G]

**** that word m8

Yeah, **** that word. Also:
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Bae

 

[Deleted member]

If you believe she can "rushdown" online then you are using her wrong or...actually thats the only explanation. She is not a character that can just swing at people. Spacing is still very important for her. Maybe even more so because she is not as safe on block as marth is.

There is no way to play smash. noob

 

[Comorant]

There is no way to play smash. noob

Certainly there is. You grab your gaming device, you put the copy of the comparable incarnation of Smash, and then you turn it on. Blow out the dust if you're working with the N64, and with any disc based consoles avoid scratching the surface. If you follow these instructions, you can play Smash too!

In all seriousness though, characters all have certain optimal tactics and playstyles they were based around. A character like Marth won't be a rushdown character even if you try to play him like a rushdown character because of the way the character was designed. Lucina may have a lack of a tipper allowing her to get her hands dirty a bit more effectively, but being a clone of Marth means her moveset is still build like a Spacing centric character, and no simple change of damage mechanics will change that.

Also calling people a "noob" over trivial disagreements in the year 2014? Really?

 

[Random4811]

In fairness, due to the nature of Shield Breaker's thrust, I believe tipping with it is pretty common. Although I'd like to see the statistical differences between Marth's tipped SB and Lucina's before passing much judgement.

While on this topic, I've seen a few different punishes for breaking someone's shield; is there a general consensus on what would be better between tipped f-smash/SB or perhaps a percent-dependant combo/string?

Marths SB non tipped does 22 dmg, tipped does 24. Lucinas does 21 across the board.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Certainly there is. You grab your gaming device, you put the copy of the comparable incarnation of Smash, and then you turn it on. Blow out the dust if you're working with the N64, and with any disc based consoles avoid scratching the surface. If you follow these instructions, you can play Smash too!

In all seriousness though, characters all have certain optimal tactics and playstyles they were based around. A character like Marth won't be a rushdown character even if you try to play him like a rushdown character because of the way the character was designed. Lucina may have a lack of a tipper allowing her to get her hands dirty a bit more effectively, but being a clone of Marth means her moveset is still build like a Spacing centric character, and no simple change of damage mechanics will change that.

Also calling people a "noob" over trivial disagreements in the year 2014? Really?

You are a friggin GENUIS!!!

 

[Jeos]

MK's sword doesn't go through the enemy without dealing damage though. He has some swoosh effect on his particles for all his attacks, his SWORD (you know, the yellow thing) never doesn't hit people where it swings.

And no, I don't believe so. I feel stuff like Forward Smash hits where it shouldn't, and so does Up Smash for sure. I think there are some blind spots really close to their bodies that weren't there in other games, but I really haven't noticed them often enough at this stage.

You say that, but I'm 100% sure that Marth does have some hitboxes missing from where they should be, most noticeable on Fsmash, Ftilt, jab and Dair. It's not like is the same issue with MK because Marth's sword is genuinely part of the animation.

Also, Marth can still tipper Fsmash an opponent on a battlefield platform while Lucina can't, so Marth rocks.

 

[Shaya]

Forward Smash hits 1 frame earlier in this game compared to Melee, Brawl and Project M.
I've tipper fsmashed EVERY TALL CHARACTER who's rolled directly into me and stand right ontop/behind.

Rosalina and Palutena really really really hate that.

It's also now our fastest smash attack again, with up smash frames getting nerfed a tad for some reason (10 frames? ). Forward Smash got so many buffs jeez.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Is tippered forward Smash safe on block? Pushes really far in this game it seems.

 

[A_Phoenix_Down]

My thing is, yeah skill will reward Marth for spacing. But you're not always going to land a tipper. Add in a jumpy floaty opponent, and you might not see much for results. On the other hand Lucina is much more consistent.

Lucina will give you much better results more frequently than Marth wil, no matter how good of a Marth player you are. You can't just factor in your own skill, you gotta remember your opponent's skill too.

Consistency > Skill mixed with Luck

 

[Shaya]

Is tippered forward Smash safe on block? Pushes really far in this game it seems.

I was actually going to include an anecdotal tidbit there, but I'm still not 100% sure on it.
Either way, Tipper Fsmash on shield into opponent rolling into me, into hitting me before I can shield has been a thing on numerous occasions, but it could've just been that the shield pushback from the move always knocked them into a corner, likely killing a lot of distance it would otherwise travel.

My thing is, yeah skill will reward Marth for spacing. But you're not always going to land a tipper. Add in a jumpy floaty opponent, and you might not see much for results. On the other hand Lucina is much more consistent.

Lucina will give you much better results more frequently than Marth wil, no matter how good of a Marth player you are. You can't just factor in your own skill, you gotta remember your opponent's skill too.

Consistency > Skill mixed with Luck

You have no idea what you're talking about. Marth is consistently doing more damage than Lucina; Why?
Both characters are going to be relying on zoning, and that doesn't happen with someone who's sitting on top of you, that's happening at 2-3 swords length away where you can react to your opponent/punish their actions while being as safe as possible. You will not be successful with Lucina playing any other way that accentuates this consistency you believe in. Their animations protrude in such a way that depending on the animation's movement you can reliably (i.e. almost always) tipper with. If you're coming from above or below, forward air is almost impossible not to tipper with, if you're coming from the side, up air is almost impossible not to tipper with. If someone is running into you or away from you, the animation of the likes of forward tilt are "sweeping" and reaching further outwards, meaning the tipper starts at very close range before pushing out further.

No matter how good you are, if you're not spacing well on Lucina you will lose. If you're spacing well, you may as well play Marth. End of story. Our close quarter OoS punishment options are still dancing blade, jab, down tilt, forward air, and Lucina's won't be any more consistent or better with those tools than us, ever (bar DB being awkward on Marth in some cases).

If you want to play hard-read Lucina of charging smash attacks on rolls and spot dodges to abuse her "consistent" hitboxes, go ahead. You are going to do worse than myself playing Lucina just like I do on Marth, with sometimes the luck of someone throwing a laggy move on my shield giving me a smash attack that would kill 10% earlier than Marths.

 

[Emblem Lord]

My thing is, yeah skill will reward Marth for spacing. But you're not always going to land a tipper. Add in a jumpy floaty opponent, and you might not see much for results. On the other hand Lucina is much more consistent.

Lucina will give you much better results more frequently than Marth wil, no matter how good of a Marth player you are. You can't just factor in your own skill, you gotta remember your opponent's skill too.

Consistency > Skill mixed with Luck

If my opponent knows how to block correctly and is decently skilled at defense Marth is still better.

Lucina has been proven to have less safe offensive tools.

 

[LoreLes]

I'm sorry, but to everyone who says Lucina is better than Marth just because she is consistent doesn't know what they are talking about. It clearly means you don't understand their moveset/play style at all.

 

[Kinslayer]

I'm sorry, but to everyone who says Lucina is better than Marth just because she is consistent doesn't know what they are talking about. It clearly means you don't understand their moveset/play style at all.

They just don't know the real reason Lucina will never be better than Marth. Have you seen Marth's hair? Always floats so nicely and falls into place perfectly. Man Marth looks like he rinses, lathers, and repeats at least 10 times. Lucina has that messed up weird whatever that is with more split ends than a horses tail. It doesn't even look like she knows what conditioner is.

Hero-King remains strongest and fairest off them all #TeamL'oreal #TeamSamson #BecauseWe'reWorthIt #StayMadBrah

 

[Shaya]

They just don't know the real reason Lucina will never be better than Marth. Have you seen Marth's hair? Always floats so nicely and falls into place perfectly. Man Marth looks like he rinses, lathers, and repeats at least 10 times. Lucina has that messed up weird whatever that is with more split ends than a horses tail. It doesn't even look like she knows what conditioner is.

Hero-King remains strongest and fairest off them all #TeamL'oreal #BecauseWe'reWorthIt #StayMadBrah

http://smashboards.com/threads/marth-totally-has-awesome-hair.227939/

Way ahead of you