it just depends on the lucario- if its a mixed, god only knows what the person has on him. For a physical set, ice punch is probabally on there. but as we are talking strictly garchomp counters, Chomp's special defense is his lower defense, and Lucario has a higher base special attack than normal attack. So it is probabally better to go special- and from there it just depends on the IVs your willing to settle on for HP Ice, or just take Dragon Pulse- Pulse with Specs can probabally get the job done, if it can survive the 2 +2 outrages.
-
Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!
You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!
Why Garchomp Should be OU
- Thread starter Niiro
- Start date
JesiahTEG
Smash Master
I never argued that Garchomp was too good for OU. I never lost any important matches to Garchomp. However, I wanted him banned because of Sand Veil. At least back when I played competitively, EVERY match between 2 good players came down to Chomp/Chomp...It was determined by the winner of a speed tie, and Sand Veil. Sand Veil is just too luck dependant. You can't have a Pokemon SO good able to dodge attacks w/his ability. It's just not fair.
I dunno about the sand veil thing- I dont know if sandstorm is common enough to account for this. I think ima go grab the shoddy numbers for OU teams with sandstorm inducing pokemon and see if they are higher or lower since Chomp was moved to Ubers.
January 2009-
| Hippopotas | Usage | 90 | 0.0 |
| Hippowdon | Usage | 27134 | 6.0 |
| Tyranitar | Usage | 73538 | 16.2 |
Total times used 100762
teammates times on same team and %
| Hippowdon | 8. Tyranitar | 4479 | 16.51 |
100762-4479= 96283 needs to be divided by total teams used.
96283 / 227279 = .4236
so in January 2009, 42.36% of all matches had induced sandstorm without the move.
August 2008 (for this time, we must assume the same rate of use, as the numbers were not kept- so that number is assumed to be the same, which was 16.51%)
Tyranitar | 43527 |
Hippowdon | 10692 |
total teams- 248,774
Hippowdon and Ttar- assuming same rate of change- 1765
43527 + 10692 - 1765 = 52454
52454/ 248774 = .21085 21.09%
So in August 2008, 21.09% of all matches had induced sandstorm without the move.
So by comparing those 2 statistics, Sandstorm has become much more widely used since Garchomp was banned. As Sand Veil is completely worthless without sand, if people were using Garchomp at all for Sand Veil, sandstorm should have been much more prevalent in August. we did have to assume the same rate of useage, but even if we ignored the possibility of them being on the same team, the percentage goes up less than a percentage point. That is still a staggering 20% behind the current amount of teams inducing sandstorm without the move. So Sand Veil is only active in about 1/5 of all games- when Chomp was OU.
I really dont see Sand Veil as much of a threat, especially if both Garchomps have the same percentage of missing. You said that most matches you played ended in Chomp v Chomp. If sandstorm isn't active and it comes down to Chomp vs Chomp- Sand Veil isnt an issue, and it is down to a speed toss up- hooray choice scarf?
I dunno what else to say, when it comes down to a mirror match, generally the faster pokemon will win- all the better reason to max speed.
PraKirJaq
Smash Journeyman
Most lucarios are physical. If they're mixed they are not going to be running Dragon Pulse for the lack of coverage it gives.
this is talking about strictly Garchomp counters, so it actually would be best if it was a special attacker- as that is the weaker of chomps defenses. I am ignoring how stupid this sounds, because i am only concentrating on Chomp, what teams typically carry with chomp, and countering Chomp.
If we can find a suitable counter that is somewhat a norm on teams as is, that would be a great point for dropping chomp to OU. Forcing absurd sets that are completly unuseable outside of countering chomp will only do that- but if that set is simply moving a few EVs and a slight move change, wouldnt that be worth it? and as i said, for me, the IV changes would probabally be the deciding point for me between HP Ice and Dragon Pulse.
I really think that Specs Lucario (not an uncommon set) could get the job done, if your switching into Outrage. Obviously switching into an boosted STAB SE EQ isnt going to cut it.
If we can find a suitable counter that is somewhat a norm on teams as is, that would be a great point for dropping chomp to OU. Forcing absurd sets that are completly unuseable outside of countering chomp will only do that- but if that set is simply moving a few EVs and a slight move change, wouldnt that be worth it? and as i said, for me, the IV changes would probabally be the deciding point for me between HP Ice and Dragon Pulse.
I really think that Specs Lucario (not an uncommon set) could get the job done, if your switching into Outrage. Obviously switching into an boosted STAB SE EQ isnt going to cut it.
Da-D-Mon-109
Smash Lord
Garchomp's stats and movelists seem to be way above average, but it seems to be most dangerous depending on the item... if only it was fair for counters to appear at the same time, instead of having to be switch ins...
On a random note, am I a fool for not fearing Choice Scarfers over Choiceband/Yacheberry Chomps, and not fearing Jolly over Adamant Garchomp? To be an effective counter, it seems that a Pokemon has to be able to live through 2 turns of attacks, and then be able to kill it before the 3rd move. And most of the Pokemon that I have ideas for don't ever pray of outspeeding Garchomp... so it seems that Choice Scarfers and Jolly Garchomps would go down faster, since the counters would have to deal with not quite as powerful attacks, and already know they aren't going to outspeed it, right? So the true main threats that I have to be able to counter are Adamant Chomps using ChoiceBands/Yacheberry, right?
And according to the stats of it's usage, the average chomp rarely has any defense, special defense, hp above 4, rarely any special attack, and usually maxed speed and attack. There's less than 10% chance of any deviation of this type, including the occasional special sweeper or defensive tank, since they are not as powerful.... it would be like Roserade Physical Sweeping... So, 90% of the time, we deal with Garchomp's with hp around 350, attack powers of around 390, defenses of around 220, special attacks of around 180, special defenses of around 200, and speeds of around 300? These are the rounded sets of Adamant Garchomps with max attack and speed, with 4 evs into hp, not factoring Choice Band or Scarf. (I'll be testing mainly Choice Band, since Scarf doesn't make much of a difference for it's counters... Scarf is actually easier for most of them.) Does all of this sound about right?
On a random note, am I a fool for not fearing Choice Scarfers over Choiceband/Yacheberry Chomps, and not fearing Jolly over Adamant Garchomp? To be an effective counter, it seems that a Pokemon has to be able to live through 2 turns of attacks, and then be able to kill it before the 3rd move. And most of the Pokemon that I have ideas for don't ever pray of outspeeding Garchomp... so it seems that Choice Scarfers and Jolly Garchomps would go down faster, since the counters would have to deal with not quite as powerful attacks, and already know they aren't going to outspeed it, right? So the true main threats that I have to be able to counter are Adamant Chomps using ChoiceBands/Yacheberry, right?
And according to the stats of it's usage, the average chomp rarely has any defense, special defense, hp above 4, rarely any special attack, and usually maxed speed and attack. There's less than 10% chance of any deviation of this type, including the occasional special sweeper or defensive tank, since they are not as powerful.... it would be like Roserade Physical Sweeping... So, 90% of the time, we deal with Garchomp's with hp around 350, attack powers of around 390, defenses of around 220, special attacks of around 180, special defenses of around 200, and speeds of around 300? These are the rounded sets of Adamant Garchomps with max attack and speed, with 4 evs into hp, not factoring Choice Band or Scarf. (I'll be testing mainly Choice Band, since Scarf doesn't make much of a difference for it's counters... Scarf is actually easier for most of them.) Does all of this sound about right?
That sounds reasonable.
That is what my Latias set is based on. It is very similar to Smogon's Defensive set, but runs considerably higher speed, and a Haban Berry
But because of that, it will not be considered a counter.
On a different note, I have come to a conclusion that the only things that can successfully counter chomp are Pokemon that outspeed it to force Garchomp not to Swords Dance, because even the most bulky walls can't take more than 2-3 hits from a +2 Outrage/Earthquake. The list below are all of such Pokemon that outspeed chomp:
Deoxys-S
Ninjask
Deoxys
Deoxys-A
Electrode
Aerodactyl
Crobat
Jolteon
Mewtwo
Darkrai
Swellow
Weavile
Alakazam
Arceus
Dugtrio
Sceptile
Ambipom
Azelf
Floatzel
Persian
Raikou
Starmie
Purugly
Espeon
Froslass
Gengar
Jumpluff
Latias
Latios
Lugia
Tauros
Infernape
Lopunny
Manectric
Mismagius
Rapidash
Scyther
Now if I eliminate all of the Uber Pokemon, and Pokemon don't have any chance in hell to survive a single blow without significant change of the purpose of the pokemon, and the pokemon who will never be able to do significant damage to Garchomp, the list is greatly shortened to:
Latias
Tauros
Latias, however must have an Haban Berry, and a significantly greater speed than most of the more bulkier spreads, (running a Timid nature is a must).
Tauros is something that surprised me the most. Tauros is blessed with a surprising base 110 Speed, good defenses (75 base HP and 95 Base Defense) and a acceptable base 100 Attack. But most importantly is his ability Intimidate, which significantly cuts Garchomps attack. I might try to do some calculations for what Tauros needs to OHKO Garchomp with Giga Impact, outspeed a Jolly Garchomp, and survive a -1 Outrage.
I_R_Hungry
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- Nov 25, 2004
- Messages
- 263
Well certainly there's plenty of new "dragon competition" and viable checks (like Scizor) that have shown up and would probably give Garchomp a lot of trouble. But as a "support" Pokemon Garchomp could still very well remain ridiculously good; already in DP you saw "Garchomp + DDNite" see a little bit of successful use, with Garchomp generally just beating the hell out of the typical "dragon counters" to set Dragonite up for a sweep. The game could easily become too "dragon-heavy," or simply too offensive if both Latios and Garchomp were to show up in OU, making for 7 OU-viable dragons, two of which (Latios and Garchomp) can be quite difficult to handle without a sacrifice. So I don't think we should really be worrying about how "good" Garchomp is per se, especially since it won't even be tested until Stage 3 of the suspect test, which will likely include things like Manaphy and Deoxys-D and such anyway-- I think the question is whether Garchomp will help dragons in general become an unhealthily dominant force in the metagame (which is definitely arguable).
The current metagame is already full of another, arguably better typing- steel. and the more prevelant Dragons become, the more steel types will show up as possible counters. Steel is resistant to Dragon.... but wait a tick- cant at least 1 dragon be found, with a STAB to counter these steel types?
Flygon. SUCKS. it is a regular 100 base speed, which means it shares a speed tie with a lot of key pokemon. even more, its highest attacking stat is 100. pitiful for a dragon. This pokemon with amazing typing is.... a letdown. I want Garchomp back! so I dont have to look at any more Heatran/Scizor combo and just think "**** lots of my pokes are about to die." STAB ground + STAB dragon= awesome. just give me some nice stats and a half-decent movepool!
also- Latios is Uber still, atm. its on the suspect, but its still Uber until the vote. and as for 7 dragons in OU, the best dragon counter is..... another dragon! w00t! more dragons, please! its just going to make new pokemon show up as viable counters to the current powerhouses.
and i am NOT going to be happy until I get 2 more dragon typings- Fire and Ice.
why the hell there isnt already a fire dragon is beyond me. when i was like 12 i just assumed charizard was one of these....... and for Ice, well imagine the Frostwyrms from WoW. (go look it up if you dont know- yea they look that cool.)
and we must assume with any new dragons, new steel types will pop up as counters. a fire dragon? say hi to my little heatran. an ice dragon..... that could be a game changer.
until we get more decently offensive dragons (*waves at Altaria, Kingdra without Swift Swim, Dragonite, and Flygon*), we need garchomp. he balances the game more than it currently is, due to those **** steels controlling the current metagame (4 out of the 10 most commonly used, 7 in the top 25- for the record, there is 1 dragon in the top 10 and 2 in the top 25). and if we need garchomp to balance the metagame, we need to figure out decent Chomp counters. and that is where we are now!
PraKirJaq
Smash Journeyman
I honestly feel that Garchomp is bad for our metagame, but that might've just been me completely hating Sand Veil and Speed Ties. With the rise of Garchomp will STILL be the rise of Steels. Guess what? Steels resist Dragon. Scizor will actually keep Garchomp in check. What can the big dragon do if it comes in for the BP revenge kill and ends up doing ~50%? That sucks. I guess it may sound great, but I feel it devolving down to triple dragon triple steel. First two as bait and Garchomp as finisher or a combination thereof.
In essence, it was Dragons in the first place that basically require you to carry a steel.
But, maybe you're right that Garchomp would decentralize the meta; we won't know until its tested.
I_R_Hungry
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- Nov 25, 2004
- Messages
- 263
but there still isn't anything that can truly counter Garchomp per se, so his ability to crush the only dragon-resistant type could easily just result in an absurdly offensive metagame.
As the meta game is currently centralized around Steel types, that is exactly what we need- a dragon who can- generally speaking- scare steel types. And yes, magnezone, Heatran, Metagross, Lucario, and Jirachi are scared of Garchomp. Skarmory will probabally see a rise in useage if Chomp is brought down, and Scizor im just not sure what will happen. No Scizor wants to switch in to a +2 Chomp Fire Fang, but switching in on an Outrage could spell doom for Chomp. I think that Scizor and Chomp are great balances for each other- and as we are currently missing one of these(Chomp), it is obvious why the other is running crazy and DESTROYING teams, along with the meta game.
....Latias is a great pure counter for Garchomp. Dragon resist berry + Draco Meteor + outspeeds Chomp= dead. and Latias is OU.
Latios is about to get dropped to OU, so there is another easy, basically ideal counter. Niiro is suggesting a possibility for a Tauros counter (definatly didnt see that one coming).
The meta game is already absurdly offensive- adding Chomp to that will only make it less so. Reasoning- teams will be more focused on blocking those outstanding offensive threats. While some impatient people (me) will still be using all-out offensive teams, we will get slaughtered by defensive juggernauts. They will set up in our faces and that will lead to an increase in hazing and pseudo-hazing. Switching into an easy pokemon to set up would more often mean your getting Roared or Whirlwinded away- and the comeback of Skarmory would begin.
Skarm is immune to Chomps ground STAB, and resists his Dragon STAB, and has one of the best defenses in the game, and moves to back its stats up. Bronzong goes with Skarm in the immunitys, but is an all-around wall, rather than just physical. Cloyster, while amazingly underused, has Ice type STAB and an awesome base 180 defense. Shuckle could see a rise in usage as well.
All I am saying is that Garchomp's absence has lead to an increase in generally offensive teams. Throwing Chomp back in the mix could keep many of the steel types at bay, while increasing the overall amount of defensive pokemon seen in the meta game. Do I know this for certain? NO. I am simply speculating based on the trends I see in Smogons Shoddy Server Statistics.
just some of my thoughts in bold.
But the main reason I want Garchomp in OU is because now there is a Dragon that outspeeds him (Latias, and maybe Latios). Just because Garchomp has few counters does not mean that Garchomp should be Uber, because Garchomp can easily be revenged. And like Mow said, the only true Garchomp counter is Lugia, who is the only can cover all of Garchomp's sets. Maybe Lugia should OU? lol.
obviously we can argue points all day- im just going to touch on the big one from that large paragraph.
Garchomp does make the game more defensive. With Garchomp in the OU scene, Blissey is the 7th most used pokemon. Without Garchomp, Blissey drops to number 8. However, Garchomp was number 1 when it was legal, meaning that Blissey dropped 2 spots when Garchomp wasnt in the scene anymore.
With Garchomp, Bronzong was the 9th most used. without Garchomp, Bronzong became the 16th most used. That is a drop of 8 spots.
Suicune was 18th with Chomp- Drop to 24th without. thats 7 spots.
Forretress dropped from 20th to 34th. 15 spots.
I am not going to go down the entire list- but that is why I say the game is more defensive. Pokemon who have defensive sets as their main set have drastically dropped in compared usage since Garchomp left for Ubers. it is just a trend that I noticed while looking at some smogon numbers. These numbers seem small at first- but when you think about it, its a pattern.
Garchomp makes the game slightly more defensive. Do i think its a massive change? no, and i never said i thought it was. It just makes the game slightly more defensive- and he keeps some major steel pokemon in check. and for the record, my favorite counter to Chomp was always phazing- hence me saying that bring Chomp back leads to more phazing.
and Lugia? in OU? yea, lets put the perfect wall in OU and throw Chomp in there as well. Lugia isnt only a Garchomp counter, its an ANYTHING counter. Lugia is to Pokemon as the Great Wall of China is to China.
edit- but no really, chomp back to OU. and not Lugia.
Garchomp does make the game more defensive. With Garchomp in the OU scene, Blissey is the 7th most used pokemon. Without Garchomp, Blissey drops to number 8. However, Garchomp was number 1 when it was legal, meaning that Blissey dropped 2 spots when Garchomp wasnt in the scene anymore.
With Garchomp, Bronzong was the 9th most used. without Garchomp, Bronzong became the 16th most used. That is a drop of 8 spots.
Suicune was 18th with Chomp- Drop to 24th without. thats 7 spots.
Forretress dropped from 20th to 34th. 15 spots.
I am not going to go down the entire list- but that is why I say the game is more defensive. Pokemon who have defensive sets as their main set have drastically dropped in compared usage since Garchomp left for Ubers. it is just a trend that I noticed while looking at some smogon numbers. These numbers seem small at first- but when you think about it, its a pattern.
Garchomp makes the game slightly more defensive. Do i think its a massive change? no, and i never said i thought it was. It just makes the game slightly more defensive- and he keeps some major steel pokemon in check. and for the record, my favorite counter to Chomp was always phazing- hence me saying that bring Chomp back leads to more phazing.
and Lugia? in OU? yea, lets put the perfect wall in OU and throw Chomp in there as well. Lugia isnt only a Garchomp counter, its an ANYTHING counter. Lugia is to Pokemon as the Great Wall of China is to China.
edit- but no really, chomp back to OU. and not Lugia.
PraKirJaq
Smash Journeyman
Guys, just fyi, Latias isn't completely OU yet. Just remember. It probably will be, but we can't 100% predict the future.
I can't exactly imagine how the Garchomp+Scizor duo will decentralize the meta, but rather centralize it more to triple dragon/steel. I mean, some of the better checks to Scizor and Garchomp are steel-typed [Bronzong, Skarmory]. Then, if we take in that Scizor effectively checks a few of Garchomp's ice sharders (hi Weavile!), I don't see it being defensive.
Really, I'd call it more of the decentralisation followed by the advent of Platnium that gave this meta a less defensive stance.
I can't exactly imagine how the Garchomp+Scizor duo will decentralize the meta, but rather centralize it more to triple dragon/steel. I mean, some of the better checks to Scizor and Garchomp are steel-typed [Bronzong, Skarmory]. Then, if we take in that Scizor effectively checks a few of Garchomp's ice sharders (hi Weavile!), I don't see it being defensive.
Really, I'd call it more of the decentralisation followed by the advent of Platnium that gave this meta a less defensive stance.
PraKirJaq
Smash Journeyman
Stage 2. Not completely OU yet. Its "allowed" in standard, but its not 100% OU. Just technical stuff and saying that there's always the off chance that one or the other will be sent back up.
Tacostames101
Smash Rookie
garchomp shouldn't be OU... something that has stab moves resisted by only 2 pokemon and an ability that reduces accuracy by 33% and amazing base stats and only two weaknesses and better walling ability as a second trait. it walls better than swampert... its not supposed to be OU
Yes, it COULD wall better than Swampert, but who the hell would use a bulky spread, when they could just SD up and attack? Also, those 2 weakness are some of the most common attacks. Also, only 3 pokemon in OU Dragonite, Salamence, Gyrados, (I think) resist both of Infernape's STABs, and no one is saying BANNNNNNNN to him. But Sand Storm is just gay, no johns there.
WouW
Smash Lord
Read stuff next time before posting please.
You've got a point here, but still, bulky thing can take stuff.Tacostames101 said:
20%. When in a sandstorm only. Big difference.
Debatable. Also, people at Smogon are testing Latios right now which has the same amount of attack (sp. attack in Latios' case), and a lot more speed.
Spiritomb for Uber tier. Also, it won't mean too much - Ice is a very common type, and you'll see Dragon often as well.
Who on earth would decide to make a Garchomp bulky!?
If Smogon is currently testing Latios then I'm fairly sure that Garchomp should go to OU.
Tacostames101
Smash Rookie
infernape actually dies to things though, anything w/ higher speed except latias and weavile w/o hp ice cant kill garchomp for a clean ohko. ape dies to any priority w/ residual damage or defense falls and dugtrio guarantees the kill nicely with ape doing nothing except maybe mach punch but thats too rare to be an issue., he's not a big threat if you know how to handle him.
edit: and just because people don't use the bulky set or its wide known doesn't mean it can't happen. i love the bulky set resttalk/swords dance/dragon claw all day <3. 317 def and 420 hp is nothing to scoff at and only steel resists dragon. how many of those steels can kill garchomp in one hit? not many... and most would stay away in fear of earthquake and you can set up unless bronzong comes in for hypnosis in time you have 2 swords dances and he puts you to sleep which doesn't matter on this set. this has happened and the person proceeded to explode on me which missed due to sand veil. i lol'd
PraKirJaq
Smash Journeyman
It typically will take two hits to kill Garchomp because of Yache; under sandstorm, that's 64% of getting a 2HKO if its Ice Beam or HP: Ice.
Then add on the fact that Tyranitar's used pretty often. 7th used is goign to mean that sandstorm will be up pretty commonly.
Because Latios has a +2 stat uppe and isn't easily pursuited off?
Spiritomb can't sweep whole teams with ease.
I will admit though, Ice is very common, but it does have good resists in rock, electric, and fire.
Taking out Garchomp, similarly to Sciozr, requires team co-op. Just because few things can go 1-1 with it doesn't mean that its perfect. And Bulky sets are easier to take down because they usually lack Yache Berry.
comments in bold yo
Tacostames101
Smash Rookie
scizor is not as dangerous as garchomp anything that resists steel and has speed can take it out... a 3 sword danced scizor w/ bullet punch only does 33% to the bulkiest swampert which can roar or eq/waterfall back. not much teamwork is required to take him out. garchomp on the other hand is can't really be taken down without sacrificing at least one pokemon. garchomp has a lot more options than scizor though which explains why he is uber and scizor is not.
bulky sets don't necessarily mean its easier to take down its bulky it wont die as easy... not as garchomp dies easy even w/ 252attck/speed. also garchomp does perfectly fine in uber tier, it can 2hko a kyogre w/ outrage and w/ stealth rock has a chance to 2hko lugia.
How much does X-Scissor do after one SD? Thats like saying GARCHOMPS+6 OUTRAGE DOSE LITTLE DAMAGE TO A MAX DEF/HP STEELIX GUYS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
And each can ohko with Ice Beam >.>
Tacostames101
Smash Rookie
x-scissor has no priority 225 speed is very managable so that is no issue and most kyogre are either specs or scarfed, and lugia never runs ice beam or seldomly its a wall not a sweeper.