Why does Zelda's Dins Fire Sucks so much?

[Smashfan61]

I hate to sound negative, but as a fan of Zelda and a Zelda main it annoys me how useless this move is. I have no idea what thing the developers hate about this character. Why can't this move work like Pit's Arrows? Why must this move enforce helplessness in the air? Come to think of it most of her good attributes that she did have seen less useful than before. Maybe it's just me.

What do you guys think? Am I overreacting or what?

 

[Phenomiracle]

No, you aren't overreacting. Din's Fire is vomit-inducing. You know a Zelda move is godawful if it was better in Brawl.

Everything about the move (pathetic range, tremendous lag, unnecessary freefall) is a summarization of Zelda in Sm4sh.

 

[Smashfan61]

No, you aren't overreacting. Din's Fire is vomit-inducing. You know a Zelda move is godawful if it was better in Brawl.

Everything from the move (pathetic range, tremendous lag, freefalling) is a summarization of Zelda in Sm4sh.

If Dins Fire were more like Pit's Arrows in which Zelda could have ability to control it, but have it be fast move it in multiple directions, influence its Directional input and have it be speedy and make it immune to being reflected.. Also get rid of the helplessness my god would her Dins Fire be good. Or even make it a save later projectile like WFT.

I mean as bad as she was in Brawl she did have things going for her, she just needed more to her. She had really good Smash attacks (Especially U-Smash) But now somehow that's made even worse. HOW DO YOU DO THAT?! Why do they hate Zelda so much?

 

[ZombieBran]

It would be nice if Din's had weak hitboxes while it traveled.
They just don't give a fuq about Zelda.

The only reason she's better off than in Brawl is because of FW and the game's changes.

 

[Phenomiracle]

Posted this in the Community Patch Project Thread.

One more suggestion for Zelda, assuming it hasn't already been added.

Remove the freefall aftereffect from Din's Fire. There is absolutely no reason for Zelda to have it while other characters possess projectiles that KO much easier than Din's Fire that they don't suffer a freefall from (Samus). Din's Fire freefalling is also responsible for many accidental deaths in which a quick Farore's Wind (Up-Special) to the side is misread as a Din's Fire. It's stupid and thoroughly unnecessary.

A further suggestion, if I may: Remove the KO sweetspot from her Din's Fire (which is largely useless even against opponents who are attempting recovery) and attach reasonably sized hitboxes to the Din's Fire trail prior to its explosion (hope I'm explaining this right). These hitboxes can function exactly how Bowser's and Charizard fire breath do: They can either cause opponents to flinch or not depending on distance (optimally for balance, there should be a set distance in which an opponent flinches upon hit, and after said distance, opponent doesn't flinch at all). Make the explosion occur faster upon release, and increase the range for Din's Fire. Brawl's range was perfect. The move was still useless because it was ridiculously easy to evade.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Relevant Brawl thread from 2009:

http://smashboards.com/threads/dins-fire-is-complete-crap-stop-using-the-move.245990/

 

[Smashfan61]

It would be nice if Din's had weak hitboxes while it traveled.
They just don't give a fuq about Zelda.

The only reason she's better off than in Brawl is because of FW and the game's changes.

I so agree. If it could move in any direction forcing people away and annoy people my god would that be a good move. It's honestly what her Dins Fire should have been something like Pit's arrows. It would help her so much.

Honestly as bad as Brawl Zelda was she did have some great Smash Attacks, but now they nerfed every single one of them. Well D- Smash range was nerfed, but not power. Naryu's Love was buffed too, it's much faster and improving what it lacked before.

I just don't understand why they don't like Zelda, It doesn't make sense to me. Her Phantom has potential (way better than Dins Useless) But it has flaws too.

 

[ZombieBran]

Phantom is awful too.

Relevant Brawl thread from 2009:

http://smashboards.com/threads/dins-fire-is-complete-crap-stop-using-the-move.245990/

Even in Brawl Nair was everything lol

 

[Hyrule Candy]

If only phantom could be stored

And din's fire had hitboxes while traveling and didn't put her in free fall

Then these moves would be great

 

[Smashfan61]

Phantom is awful too.


Even in Brawl Nair was everything lol

Yes. Nair was one of Zelda's saving graces, that move was like amazing for her. lol And I know that. I just wish the Phantom had more to it, have it have hitboxes at it traveled out, have it be stored and have a shield breaker like effect to it. Like Marth and Lucina's Neutral B. Zelda needs that. lol

And this is coming from a person who's new to competitive Smash, I can even dodge it! I'm not there yet. I have a lot of training to do.

 

[Deleted member]

Interesting. I like to play Zelda a bit and I actually love how it works now. It's much easier to kill with for me due to the explosiveness compared to Brawl. In fact, as much as I love Melee the most, I think it's better than Din's Fire in that.

 

[Hyrule Candy]

Yes. Nair was one of Zelda's saving graces, that move was like amazing for her. lol And I know that. I just wish the Phantom had more to it, have it have hitboxes at it traveled out, have it be stored and have a shield breaker like effect to it. Like Marth and Lucina's Neutral B. Zelda needs that. lol

And this is coming from a person who's new to competitive Smash, I can even dodge it! I'm not there yet. I have a lot of training to do.

Ya know that one of her phantom customs is a shield breaker right? It's phantom breaker

 

[ZombieBran]

Phantom Breaker is the only Phantom I like even a little.

Interesting. I like to play Zelda a bit and I actually love how it works now. It's much easier to kill with for me due to the explosiveness compared to Brawl. In fact, as much as I love Melee the most, I think it's better than Din's Fire in that.

It's a kill move but it only works against people who screwed up their dodge badly.

 

[Smashfan61]

Ya know that one of her phantom customs is a shield breaker right? It's phantom breaker

Yeah I noticed that. That just didn't come to mind for the moment. Sorry about that.

 

[Princess Toady]

It's kind of her trademark at this point. A symbol of her worthlessness.

 

[Mocha]

/heavysighgoeshere

These boards are really starting to depress me.

 

[Tyketto]

I don't mind the way it is now. I do wish they would extend the range a bit. Did they shorten the range from Brawl to Smash 4? It feels that way, at least.

 

[HiFlo]

Since this game is able to be patched and all that, are any our Zelda user's suggested changes possible?! I guess if they can add a new character (Mewtwo) they are able to change any characteristic about any move they want? I say this because changing Phantom to a charge&storage move is more complicated than "this move does 11% now instead of 9%" kind of thing.

I agree it has a few too many downsides to it, but it still can be useful in some situations and can still control airspace. Any buff to this move would be HUGE.

 

[Torisuna]

So far what I have found out while playing as Zelda is she has a crazy amount of hidden potential. But on topic I do think Dins Fire is fine for the game. Its suppose to be used as an edge guard tool along with mid range poking. If you hit with it either your opponent doesnt know the match up or your getting lucking. It can stop missiles, arrows, boomerang, bombs, ect So it has many application as a defensive wall other than an attack. Its a good attack if sweet spotted but you cant bank on that because the attack is inconsistent that way. I have done many MU's and find out DF helps with some that are horrible match ups for a lovely lady. But Thats my thoughts on this subject

 

[Princess Toady]

They could EASILY fix her, to be honest. It shouldn't be that hard to make her smashes connect and fasten Din's animation / travelling speed or widen its range.

 

[Hyrule Candy]

I'll just be happy if they give her brawl usmash

 

[Torisuna]

I think they shortened DFs range because cross mapping was hella cheap and annoying from both the defence end and the attacking end. So to reduce spamming they did this in response. One time I fought in a doubles match two zeldas that would spam this and they timed it to where even if you got in one of them was able to retaliate and your partner was very unlikely to have been followed up with you. Nooby tactic but it worked on a lot of people. :/

 

[Phenomiracle]

DF's range was drastically reduced from Brawl to Sm4sh. Brawl's DF only largely worked on CPUs and scrubs (much like FW in this game, except Farore's Elevator is a solid killing option). I've heard a lot of whining from people about how I'd continually spam Din's Fire and I'd simply point to the R-button on their controllers.

As an edgeguarding tool, DF is only slightly effective at best against opponents with horrendous recovery (which is ~10% of the roster), since it's ridiculously easy to airdodge.

Nayru's Love works infinitely better as a panic defense against projectiles.

One time I fought in a doubles match two zeldas that would spam this and they timed it to where even if you got in one of them was able to retaliate and your partner was very unlikely to have been followed up with you. Nooby tactic but it worked on a lot of people. :/

Most certainly isn't nooby, that takes solid coordination and practice. Quite a frequent occurrence in doubles.

 

[ZombieBran]

I wish I was better at doubles, since that's really Zelda's specialty. Well that and single player modes.

 

[OmegaSorin]

I wouldn't say Din's Fire sucks, it really doesn't, I can't tell you how many times its been used to destroy my return to the stage by my friend @ WillLi Its all about how you use it.

 

[Hyrule Candy]

I still think zelda is a solid singles character that kills earlier than most of the cast and has a great punish game. Sure she still has the same problem that she can't approuch but I see her as mid over all

 

[ZombieBran]

There's not much to learn on using Din's Fire. Just aim at the foe (or where they'll be, not that it matters) and detonate. You can't delay it, you can't stall it, you can't speed it up. It's linear. It doesn't matter where you aim it really because it's dodgeable on reaction. The end lag for Zelda is huge enough that she gains no advantage on anyone.

Some characters might be affected by their terrible recoveries if they were forced to air dodge at a bad time. That is situational and is just Little Mac, the Marios and...that's it I think?

Din's only use in 1v1 outside of that is as a tool to maybe annoy the opponent enough that they approach.

 

[Hyrule Candy]

There's not much to learn on using Din's Fire. Just aim at the foe (or where they'll be, not that it matters) and detonate. You can't delay it, you can't stall it, you can't speed it up. It's linear. It doesn't matter where you aim it really because it's dodgeable on reaction. The end lag for Zelda is huge enough that she gains no advantage on anyone.

Some characters might be affected by their terrible recoveries if they were forced to air dodge at a bad time. That is situational and is just Little Mac, the Mario's and...that's it I think?

Din's only use in 1v1 outside of that is as a tool to maybe annoy the opponent enough that they approach.

That's why I use din blaze lol

 

[ZombieBran]

I think Din's Blaze and Din's Flare are indeed both marginally more useful overall, for different reasons.

I haven't tried Blaze enough and people seem to have an okay opinion of it. I'm gonna be exclusively using that until I understand its uses.

 

[Alacion]

Din's Fire is good when the opponent is low enough that any options to counter it would lead to their death. It's also great in doubles where there is so much chaos you can't always deal with Din's.

Not guaranteed, but Din's Fire can be good enough to encourage an approach. It's important to note that forcing an approach doesn't mean good news for Zelda. Lastly, there's always what ven did where he'd use Din's to cover his landing. Wifi tactics too strong.

Let's be real here... there's a million ways to deal with Din's. You can shield, roll, spotdodge, air dodge, cancel it with an aerial, absorb/reflect, outcamp Zelda, or just move away from it.

That's it - case closed. There is nothing left to say about Din's Fire.

Customs are great and all, but at this rate they won't be legal anywhere.

 

[WillLi]

I don't have too much experience against people who are used to fighting Zelda (no one in my circle used to play her) but I find Din's Fire useful, it's not great but it has some uses, like forcing your opponent into certain patterns by how they tend to dodge it. And if they mess up the dodge well it's got alright killing power so it might just take them away for you.

 

[Alacion]

I always go Peach 2nd game when I face a Zelda on For Glory. I cancel every Din's Fire with a nair and there's nothing they can do about it and then they approach with dash attack. Grounded nair has minimal lag, and extremely fast with favourable hitboxes. Sure, you can read my nair to cancel your Din's but there's nothing you can do to punish it.

Not to mention Din's Fire now needs to be sweetspotted which is not a bright idea on Sakurai's part.

Din's Fire sucks. Next~

 

[Torisuna]

DF's range was drastically reduced from Brawl to Sm4sh. Brawl's DF only largely worked on CPUs and scrubs (much like FW in this game, except Farore's Elevator is a solid killing option). I've heard a lot of whining from people about how I'd continually spam Din's Fire and I'd simply point to the R-button on their controllers.

As an edgeguarding tool, DF is only slightly effective at best against opponents with horrendous recovery (which is ~10% of the roster), since it's ridiculously easy to airdodge.

Nayru's Love works infinitely better as a panic defense against projectiles.



Most certainly isn't nooby, that takes solid coordination and practice. Quite a frequent occurrence in doubles.

True it did look difficult and when I picked Zelda up later It wasnt the easiest thing to do lol. I guess I called it nooby cuz all I had at the time was a lame non magical arrow of link lol. Also DF works perfect against players that are to lazy ro get out of tumble state. Iv killed many players with sweet spots.

 

[Hyrule Candy]

I think Din's Blaze and Din's Flare are indeed both marginally more useful overall, for different reasons.

I haven't tried Blaze enough and people seem to have an okay opinion of it. I'm gonna be exclusively using that until I understand its uses.

Dins blaze is just omg it's so much better. It's good for edgeguarding since you can put it on the edge and force them to recover from above. Some characters just can't afford that with the ending lag. You can also force air dodges and prevent approaches. It can also be a good camping tool since you can put out a phantom and throw out a blaze. It can help with stage control too.

 

[Smashfan61]

/heavysighgoeshere

These boards are really starting to depress me.

It really depress me how little effort they put into fixing Zelda's core problems, they seem to "buff" her by just giving her more power in a certain area, instead of giving her one that benefits her to overcome her weaknesses. I really hate to bag on Zelda too, trust me I really like the character. I'm not bagging on Zelda just to hate, I'm just frustrated at how she gets nothing out of any deal.

 

[Mocha]

Believe me, I know. As has been mentioned around the boards, she is a complete risk/reward character. Even one of her 'better' out of shield options, Up B, is a risk! We don't have semi-safe moves we an just fall back to and reliably safe with. Sakurai's logic for how Zelda works is to give her powerful magical attacks, but make her slow. But what use is power if you can't use it properly?

 

[Meru.]

I just really don't get what they are thinking of this move. So far we have had five versions of this move. One in Melee, one in Brawl, and three in Smash 4. Literally NONE of them is a good move. It should be completely obvious by now that this move just doesn't work in the way it is designed, so why is it still the way it is? Even in Free For All it isn't a very good move because of the eternity of lag it has.

That said I think this Din's Fire, albeit still utter ****, is a tiny bit (really tiny) better than Brawl's because at least it can kill IF it hits. Let's face it, you're almost never gonna hit with this move, but IF you are lucky enough to punish an badly timed airdodge or whiff or whatever, it's least fatal to your opponent.

 

[Meek Moths]

learn to use it well then it wont suck c;

 

[Deleted member]

Because whovever designed Zelda is a stubborn fool. They have absolutely no idea what the heck to do with this move to make it good, and yet they still refuse to do anything different with the move's mechanics.

Insanity - doing the same thing over and over but expecting different results.

 

[MOI-ARI]

Why does it suck so much? It kinda always has. I barely use the move. The best way to fix it would be if it didn't disable you in the air. Oh man that be sweet and flashy on approach! Imagine jumping forward and back, gliding with it to chase down opponents? Or horizontaly falling back to the stage while it clears the edge for you? Leting you Double jump and teleport afterwards? Zelda can easily be improved. XD