Why does Young Link do badly in tournaments?

[Tyr_03]

Forgive me for my ignorance. I main Fox and have been messing around with some lower tier characters for fun so I'm a total noob with Young Link. I don't understand why Young Link has such low representation in tournament standings.

Obviously I wouldn't expect him to be high tier or anything but just looking at his moves it seems like he has
- A good recovery with options (Up B or tether)
- Good projectiles
- Aerials with moderately good priority
- Decent horizontal kill ability
- Pretty good speed with a useful wavedash for spacing

I mean obviously he doesn't have much in the way of comboing but I would think that could be worked around. What is it that makes him do so poorly in many competitive situations? Are there techniques or playstyles that we haven't tapped into that could make him a more viable character? I'm just curious to get some opinions from players who have used Young Link in tournaments. Thanks in advance!

 

[HiIH]

because he's a Link and doesn't have a SKRAAAAAH.

 

[Madvillain]

Tournament play is usually set on smaller stages with more agressive play. Young Link is better for hit and run, building up high % on his opponents with projectiles and then smashing them at the end. In tourny play, most of the levels that he excells in, are blocked. This leaves smaller levels where he is forced to brawl (for lack of a better word) and he just doesn't have the power to do this.

His attacks are short to medium range. His speed is good but not quite on the level of a Sheik or Marth. From my own experience I rarely have priority on moves over the people I fight. His projectiles require a decent amount of time to ready and on a smaller stage with faster characters, this gives them ample time to get in and start firing combos.

On the note of Young Link not having combos, this is not true. His combos however, are based on the use of his projectiles. I like to start getting chased, jump over my opponent with a bomb, throw the bomb straight up, let them come into the bomb, turn, fire an arrow, rush in, grab, down-throw, Up smash, FAIR. This isn't huge dmg, but stunning with bombs and arrows gives me enough time to get it, stick a few shots and get out.

 

[Tyr_03]

YAY a post!

Yeah as far as combos I meant in comparison to say Sheik, Marth, Fox or Falco's combo ability.

I dunno. I think he has a lot more potential than most people give him credit for. I'm going to spend a lot more time on him.

 

[Madvillain]

I love Young Link. Yeah he is played primaraly as a hit and run type, but a few people (ChuDat) have learned to really play him as an aggressive character. It's all about your playstyle. I personally like being chased all over the map while setting traps and hitting my opponent when they forget to shield a bomb.

 

[Zone]

Since you mentioned his Pros I'll give you some of his cons.

He has decent kill moves Yes, But let's remember what they are.
Dash attack,
Side Smash,
Down Air,
Down Smash.

All of which are easily punished if shielded since It's hard for young link to space his attack on a shield having little range and all. So alot of his kills will come from good edgeguarding, or being able to combo into a kill move, or shield poke with one.

Another thing about young link, is alot of characters combo him pretty easily. And i'm not sure if their easy combos can make up for y.links combos. But yes Running away and setting up projectile traps is a good way to go to build up dmg. Just make sure your doing it to people you can actually out projectile.

His range is so short with his a moves. which forces you to use b-moves from a distance. I guess you could say fox has short range. But atleast fox can have ALOT of shield pressure upclose. Y.link can't go on as long as fox can.

I'm by no means a young link master. I just play him occasionally when Me and my friends decide to do random char random stages. and i get young link.

 

[Dragon_Hawk]

he's not really fast enough to run away and spam effectively against the top tiers because they can work around it really easily and they **** him in close quarters. moreover there are matchups where he's actually outspammed so he's not even that good for spamming.

his combos are mediocre. and they don't make up for him being really easy to punish because of his laggy, low-range moveset. it's true he can set projectile traps, and use the stun from bombs and whatever to setup kills, but his projectiles aren't that hard to move around because comparatively they're slower and laggier than the other good projectiles in the game.

his priority isn't bad but his range as a whole sucks.

he dies fast. the tether recovery is cool and his up+b has nice distance but you can gimp those really easily by just grabbing the ledge and ledgestalling and bairing him when he comes back. his hookshot is really short distance. his recovery has nice variations and whatever but it's still easy to edgeguard.

finally, he only has like one decent matchup in the top 6 characters (peach). and he sucks against the other five.

 

[PDOT]

Cos He Sucks

 

[Speedsk8er]

I used to think the same thing....

Then I went up against a Sheik player. D:

 

[Jash]

I used to think the same thing....

Then I went up against a Sheik player. D:

Sheik players aren't that hard, Its the spacies you have to worry about.

 

[Madvillain]

Space animals? I find the space animals much easier than Sheik IMO.

 

[Jash]

Space animals? I find the space animals much easier than Sheik IMO.

When you play someone like Pc Chris, you will find it almost impossible to touch Fox and Falco.

 

[Madvillain]

You're talking like I play PC Chris everyday or every player that plays Fox or Falco, plays on his level. Most people are not that great with space animals and from my own experience, I have more trouble with a middle/high skilled Sheik than a space animal.

 

[Zone]

You're talking like I play PC Chris everyday or every player that plays Fox or Falco, plays on his level. Most people are not that great with space animals and from my own experience, I have more trouble with a middle/high skilled Sheik than a space animal.

Yea, Jash is talking about at the highest lvl of play. like if Y.Link could be played at his best, and so were shiek and Fox/Falco. Fox/Falco will **** Y.link better than Shiek can.

But yea, at a lower level that isn't up there with fox infinites, waveshines, and perfect l-cancelled aerials nearly with 99% consistency. Shiek would probably be definantly harder to deal with than a space animal.

 

[Teczer0]

Sheik players aren't that hard, Its the spacies you have to worry about.

Not everyone is as good as you .

YL gets ***** pretty hard.

I dunno how the mid tiers do but with the exception of peach the higher tiers pretty much **** YL.

Fox is too fast and since YL's shield grab is not very good a very sound and technical fox is absurdly difficult to fight as YL.

Falco's projectile is better than yours and at close combat the its practically the same situation as fox

Sheik is still a very hard match up for YL its not as bad as spacies but her combos can **** YL and she can tilt the boomerang away which helps in approaching YL.

Marth out-ranges YL to like ridiculous extents and edgeguarding YL with marth is pretty easy. He can also swat away the boomerang but has an EVEN easier time doing so. His spacing can **** YL

Peach doesn't **** YL but she doesn't have a giant disadvantage. Its a camping battle and I think peach has a very slight disadvantage. But YL's only real advantage is projectiles.

CF and some others probably **** YL hence why he is low tier.

Jash is just too good though >_>

 

[battousai555]

...and perfect l-cancelled aerials nearly with 99% consistency.

I hate to nit-pick, but don't you either l-cancel or miss the l-cancel? I'd say the difference between a pro and everyone else is that a pro has near-perfect spacing.

 

[Teczer0]

I have had pros tell me my spacing is very good.

The difference between pros and others in general is probably due to an ability only gained through experience which is the ability to adapt.

The ability to adapt to aggressive players, defensive players, campy players, etc etc etc.

Pros are also very innovative creating strategies and situations not many players are used to.

Pros in general have very good "technical skill" with the character they choose.

Pretty much spacing is a part of your "Technical Skill". Spacing is just a technique that helps you move your character more fluently. While its true pro players all have great tech skill it alone does not define if you are a top player or not.

 

[St. Viers]

@ Teczero: love your sig.

just looking at this thread, it reminds me of why I dislike it when people in brawl discussions say "x will be good because of these y factors." Even if they have those qualities, it doesn't always mean much

 

[Jash]

Sheik is definitely easier then the spacies for a few reasons.

1: Gimping her is simple because of her crap recovery (Same for Falco too though x.x)

2: Edgeguarding her is simple because of her crap recovery and lag afterwards.

3: Comboing her is cake at worst.

4: Either you believe or not, Young Links projectiles > Sheik.

5: She dies quicker then the spacies.

Thats all, you don't have to believe if you don't want, i know what im talking about

Marth out-ranges YL to like ridiculous extents and edgeguarding YL with marth is pretty easy. He can also swat away the boomerang but has an EVEN easier time doing so. His spacing can **** YL

This made me laugh lmao. Tec0.....NO ONE out ranges Young Link. That dude has Projectiles.

 

[Tom]

because he's a Link and doesn't have a SKRAAAAAH.

LOL have we met?!

is this Peru or something hahaha

 

[Zone]

I hate to nit-pick, but don't you either l-cancel or miss the l-cancel? I'd say the difference between a pro and everyone else is that a pro has near-perfect spacing.

Of course that's a big factor to. Forgive me for not going into an essay about ever aspect >.>; I think I got my point accross though. And yes you either miss the l-cancel or not. Hence Consistency. Spacing is definantly a big factor to. So is Choosing the right moves at the right time. Like if u spaced too much ur not gonna wanna l-cancel to shine, cuz you'll miss. U'll l-cancel to forward tilt or something with range, to tap their shield safely.

My l-cancel example was mostly for the Non-high lvl. People at Mad's level don't l-cancel consistently. (I know him outside of smashboards.)


Ur spacing thing. Is more of a pro vs Semi-pro thing. Semi-pros are good at l-cancel, they just lack spacing, and other small variables outside of combos/tech. Talking of average smasher learning vs Pro. in which L-cancel IS a factor.


EDIT: After rereading my post. You leaving out the rest of my sentence makes me sound more dumb >.>.

I said in a world "Where this does not exist as often hence l-cancelling." which is the more newbish world. And i'm not talking about what seperates pro vs the world. you misread my post.

I was describing a level of play, (A lesser one) not comparing.

"But yea, at a lower level that isn't up there with fox infinites, waveshines, and perfect l-cancelled aerials nearly with 99% consistency. Shiek would probably be definantly harder to deal with than a space animal."

You can't tell me that's false >.>;
at that level of play where fox/falco doesn't do all that. Shiek will probably be alot harder to play.

 

[Blea Gelo]

You're talking like I play PC Chris everyday or every player that plays Fox or Falco, plays on his level. Most people are not that great with space animals and from my own experience, I have more trouble with a middle/high skilled Sheik than a space animal.

this is because of that playing with a space animal is m uch hardera, and when u say a not that great with space animal players or not that great with sheik, is because sheik is easyer to use.. but when u finish learning hot to use a spaceanimal, (specialy a full developed technical fox) it could be harder *** hell.. if i said something bad srry my english isnt too good. i hope u understand what i said XD

 

[Jash]

Ive played a few ranked Sheiks and a few ranked Fox's. Ive beaten most of those ranked Sheiks and lost to most of those ranked Fox's. Fox is just too hard man, i have learned to deal with him better now but hes still Young Links hardest match up (at least mine lolz). Falco.....well....i don't really play him a lot in ranked tournaments but IMO hes not as hard as Fox. Im not too sure though....i should play some ranked Falcos, hopefully Forward would show me the match up.

 

[D20]

Young Link has some pretty horrible match ups... too many for me to go into much detail...
Fox can gimp Young Link very easily and uthrow to uair is just mean.

Falco can frustrate Young Link with lasers, but it goes both ways. Young Link suffers most because his dair isn't a very effective means for KOing in this match up.

Sheik can grab Young Link all day long, but she gets combo'd.

Marth is evil. Young Link has to work so much harder in this match up. Since Young Link's tech is short and slow, Marth can easily get low percentage tippers.

Captain Falcon? This one is questionable. I enjoy this match up... bair out of sheild to usmash to uair works like a charm for Young Link. Unfortunately, Captain Falcon has more combos that work everytime.

Peach isn't so bad. Whoever is more patient will probably win.

Ice Climbers is the first "good" match up for Young Link. Bombs keep them separated and dair KOs early.


Other match ups of note...
Jigglypuff is a great match up for Young Link. She struggles to approach and dair KOs as early as 70%.

Luigi combos Young Link very nicely. DI his dthrow away.

Ganon will get Young Link and keep him off the stage.

Zelda's bair KOs Young Link quickly. I've been KO'd starting at 45%. Don't sleep in this match up.

Doctor Mario is tougher than Mario for some reason... I haven't really figured it out yet.

Link has a slight advantage despite anything Jash might say. MM me Jash... I'm good now.

Every other match up is roughly even (such as Samus and DK) or is in Young Link's favor (such as Ness and Bowser).

 

[TheLake]

Zelda vs young link maks me sad ):

 

[Jash]

Link has a slight advantage despite anything Jash might say. MM me Jash... I'm good now.

I love the Link match up, its like if you hit Link with an Upsmash at 0%....afterwards....you feel like a Fox doing combos. Link DOES have the slight advantage don't get me wrong, but i love the Link match up. And sure D20, ill MM you, But it has to be 20-50 dollars so be confident about it because its going no lower bro lolz. Save them Rupees up.

 

[exarch]

Ok I don't understand the whole
"Good recovery" part or the "Decent horizontal kill ability"

His recovery is really predictable, most of the time he's forced to upb because his grapple's so short. (Needs to go through puberty already)
And his horizontal kill moves are all relative trash as far as spammable/unpunishable or being able to be comboed into. Seriously, they're quite easy to avoid and really easy to punish.


Fox's uthrow->uair has been minimized is recent months (close to a year now) by smash DI. If you're still complaining about it, you should practice it more. Foxes don't even bother to try it against me anymore, and I'm a PEACH main.

Not that I'm saying fox would be hindered much by it against YLink, i'm sure uthrow bair regrab uthrow bair bair could work. What I am saying is uthrow to uair for the most part is old and good foxes know how to work without it.

 

[elvenarrow3000]

I don't think the problem is that Young Link is patently bad, but rather that everyone else in the metagame is generally better than he is. He can do a lot of things, but everyone else does it better than he does. Like he has a disjointed hitbox, but Marth's is better. He has projectiles, but Falco's is better. Stuff like that.

Also, exarch, do you mean the SDI that level nines do to avoid the second hit of the uair? I found that if you DI to one side (the same side they're SDI'ing to) you can hit them with the second hit. I'm not sure if that would actually work though, since no one I know (including me) knows how to SDI out of it. Have you tested to see if that works?

 

[exarch]

Also, exarch, do you mean the SDI that level nines do to avoid the second hit of the uair? I found that if you DI to one side (the same side they're SDI'ing to) you can hit them with the second hit. I'm not sure if that would actually work though, since no one I know (including me) knows how to SDI out of it. Have you tested to see if that works?

Yes that can and does work. There's only one fox I play who's figured that out though.

But then it just becomes a guessing game again, which side are you going to SDI to? Still better than getting hit all the time by it.

 

[elvenarrow3000]

Oh okay, cool.

Love your location, by the way =P

 

[battousai555]

"But yea, at a lower level that isn't up there with fox infinites, waveshines, and perfect l-cancelled aerials nearly with 99% consistency. Shiek would probably be definantly harder to deal with than a space animal."

You can't tell me that's false >.>;
at that level of play where fox/falco doesn't do all that. Shiek will probably be alot harder to play.

The only thing I was really trying to say was that "perfect l-cancelled aerials" sounded silly to me (as opposed to just "l-cancelled aerials"). You either l-cancel or you don't, so the "perfect" part doesn't really make sense to me. I threw in the part about spacing because I believe one can have perfect spacing (by always being out of shield-grabbing range, always at tipper-distance, etc.). I apologize for any confusion. It seems that I'm inclined to argue semantics.

 

[MikeHaggarTHAKJB]

Lack of very fast close range attacks that are reliable in most close range situations (like the shine for fox and falco and jab for other characters, his "jab" seems slower then others jabs to me). His grab is also ineffective when opponents get up that close.
And due to his range not being superb (although very good range considering his speed) he's not good enough at keeping opponent from getting that close

 

[D20]

Lack of very fast close range attacks that are reliable in most close range situations (like the shine for fox and falco and jab for other characters, his "jab" seems slower then others jabs to me). His grab is also ineffective when opponents get up that close.
And due to his range not being superb (although very good range considering his speed) he's not good enough at keeping opponent from getting that close

Good point about the jab. His utilt and dtilt are very slow as well.

 

[elvenarrow3000]

His jab is two frames slower, I think. You could always dash back then dash forward again and dash attack to clear some room, or use the nair. I think he has a pretty decent close quarters game, really, it's just not as good as the higher tier chars that dominate the metagame.

 

[AIDS]

Young link does bad in tournament due to his lack of pwnage, Anyone can just pick Sheik and state "I WIN!" therefor lesson learned. Do not pick Young Link in tounrmanets, fox/shiek **** low tier, case closed.

 

[PDOT]

yeah but you have AIDS.

 

[Laijin]

-Young Link does'nt have any killing ability.
-Shiek players are impossible. Spacies are not that hard(especially if its Falco. Its not bad at all).
-Marth is an alright match up too. Its not that bad as long as you know how to space your projectiles.
-I can't fight Peach. Look to Jash for that.
-CF does not **** YL. Not at all. He hits every bomb you throw at him and is easy to gimp.

-Other than those match ups, YL pretty much ***** all of mid tier, low tier and definantly bottom tier because of his projectiles alone. Just know your match ups as well.

 

[Laijin]

Good point about the jab. His utilt and dtilt are very slow as well.

Lets clear some more things up:

-For close range, if you have a bomb in your hand jump and z-drop the bottom. Comes out in literally 1 frame and stuns your opponent long enough for you to even combo off of it. So he has good options for close range

-He has the best projectile game in the game..Falco's lasers are NOT better than YL's projetiles. Definantly not. Young Link can rack up damage with projectile combos faster than Falco can plus he has a lot more options with it.

-The ICs match up is not hard.
-Neither is every other match up that I mentioned in my post. YL completely ***** DK, Bowser, Jiggly, Ness, Mewtwo, Link, Zelda and all the other mid/low tier characters. He just simply has an advantage over all of them.

-YL's hardest match up is Shiek. Then Fox. But I have more trouble with random Sheiks than random Fox's. I know how to deal with Fox, but with Shiek my options don't exist anymore. lol.

-YL has 2 semi-infinites on PKMN Stadium against larger characters(Even CF, Zelda, Marth, etc etc).

-Nothing but Marth's d-air gets passed YL's u-air

-Last but not least. The Lai-Fire combo ***** most characters who recovery from below the ledge. Bomb dropping on the mountain and baiting them to jump since their sheild is quickly draining on stadium into a lai-fire is almost in instant kill because of your height. :] YL is a bad character. Yes. But he is was too much fun to play as and was at least better than most of the characters in the game(Cause anyone who was not Fox or Sheik was bad. :[)

 

[Zone]

-He has the best projectile game in the game..Falco's lasers are NOT better than YL's projetiles. Definantly not. Young Link can rack up damage with projectile combos faster than Falco can plus he has a lot more options with it.

Dunno. After see'ing Eggm, and Lambchop's laser game at The Greatest Melee Tournament since brawl Came out, I'll have to see some crazy young link projectile rapage >.>

 

[D20]

I've played Eggm in sets. Falco's projectiles are superior to Young Link's. Still, that doesn't mean the match up is heavily in Falco's favor.