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Why do we keep ignoring SD Remix?

Quillion

Smash Hero
Joined
Sep 17, 2014
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5,674
There's really no reason we shouldn't:
  • All advanced techniques are kept.
  • The high-tiers are unchanged (heck, they're still probably the best characters)
  • The mid and low-tiers are changed to be better
  • The game is easy to install both for DIOS MIOS/Nintendont and Dolphin
And yet we're still insisting on the Fox/Falco/Marth/Jigglypuff fest of vMelee for tournaments.
 

vynleren

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Apr 8, 2014
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People have been playing the same game for over ten years. Why would they want to switch to some random fan-made "balance patch"?

Not saying I like or dislike the SD remix, it's just... that it will never replace normal melee in tournaments.
 

Strong Badam

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It's relatively inaccessible and doesn't offer much value to what Melee players are looking for in a game. Most people in the community don't particularly value a well balanced roster, so SD Remix's main draw isn't important to them, and Melee already offers what they want; a game engine with very few flaws and an exciting (if oppressive) well developed top tier metagame.
 
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Quillion

Smash Hero
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It's relatively inaccessible and doesn't offer much value to what Melee players are looking for in a game. Most people in the community don't particularly value a well balanced roster, so SD Remix's main draw isn't important to them, and Melee already offers what they want; a game engine with very few flaws and an exciting (if oppressive) well developed top tier metagame.
If that's the case, why did you and the rest of of PMDT put a lot of effort into balancing Project M? Looks like that was all relatively pointless, don't you think?

And also, aren't the "flaws" what make Melee fun? Wavedashing is an easily removable physics quirk of airdodging into the ground that Nintendo could remove since Sakurai hates it so much; L-cancelling is a rather pointless mechanic that could be resolved by just having aerials be less laggy. And yet I and everyone else here are willing to invest their time into incorporating these "flaws" into the gameplay because it's all a fantastic reward for skill.

And I find it funny that you actually qualify your statement saying that the top tier is "oppressive" when SDR doesn't even change the high-tier characters at all.

People have been playing the same game for over ten years. Why would they want to switch to some random fan-made "balance patch"?

Not saying I like or dislike the SD remix, it's just... that it will never replace normal melee in tournaments.
Because the changes are minimal to the point that people who already play as the mid to low-tier characters will ease into SDR with no real issue.
 
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1MachGO

Smash Ace
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Mar 18, 2013
Messages
807
The main issue is that playing SD Remix isn't nearly as convenient as playing something like P:M which only requires an SD card. If the name tag exploit somehow got to the point of allowing us to play SD Remix, it would have a chance, but even then there are still other factors to consider (such as Nintendo's support).

Most people in the community don't particularly value a well balanced roster
Not calling your post negative, but I find this is to be a somewhat back handed/speculative comment.

While I would agree with the notion that imbalance can make a game more appealing (I mean, just look at MOBAs), I think what players truly value are some kind of contextual rules where ideas and concepts are recurring throughout the game (i.e. fastfallers are easily combo'd, shoryuken-esque recoveries suck w/o double jump, etc.). While this kind of normalization makes the strategy and inter-character relationships more simplified, the removal of niches makes the meta significantly less archaic.

This becomes even more evident when you consider how many people complain about playing vs. Jigglypuff. Characters such as Jiggs and Ice Climbers stand out because they don't fit in the same mold as the rest of the cast [both viable and unviable]. This isn't to say other characters don't break rules (shines, float cancelling, etc) but they don't break enough to be considered "gimmicky" or "niche" and, thus, don't require niche experience to comprehend.

Another way of looking at it is through the Melee ruleset. We use four stock, 8 minutes, but our average match time is probably 3 to 4 minutes. Why is that? Would that change if characters who bring that average down significantly (such as Fox, Falco, and Falcon) were played less? If they were played less we'd probably change our ruleset.

TL;DR/Conclusion: People don't dislike balance, they dislike niches. More viable characters can disrupt normalization.
 
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Strong Badam

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If that's the case, why did you and the rest of of PMDT put a lot of effort into balancing Project M? Looks like that was all relatively pointless, don't you think?
Project M appeals to a different target audience, like most different game titles do. Project M players value a balanced roster, while Melee players may not necessarily. Despite having a nearly identical game engine, there are several people who play PM exclusively, and several who play Melee exclusively, though there are also several who play both. Personally I value a balanced roster very highly and it's why I prefer playing PM. Others don't and will play Melee for all eternity, and there's nothing wrong with that. And that's why SD Remix isn't particularly appealing to the majority of them.
 
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Quillion

Smash Hero
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Project M appeals to a different target audience, like most different game titles do.
So what's the point of the "M" in Project M, again? Why did you keep in the "flaws" of Melee like Wavedashing instead of easing them like how Nintendo did with Mario's Wall Jump glitch?
 
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Strong Badam

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It's just impossible for me to post anywhere without it turning into a PM discussion, even when I don't mention it, isn't it? And people wonder why I don't post in Melee Discussion anymore. I'll try again in another couple months~
 
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Quillion

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It's just impossible for me to post anywhere without it turning into a PM discussion, even when I don't mention it, isn't it? And people wonder why I don't post in Melee Discussion anymore. I'll try again in another couple months~
Your reputation precedes you, unfortunately.
 

Massive

Smash Champion
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This is not meant as an attack on SD remix, I think it's pretty fun and appreciate the work that has gone into it. Think of this as a very honest line of reasoning as to why so few people play it. It is well known that I frequently play the devil's advocate, sorry in advance.

What does SD remix actually add other than buffing the most competitively unpopular characters?
Does it restore something that was removed (like L-cancelling/wavedashing/real combos in PM)? No
Is it basically a new game, like PM? No
Does it add new characters or moves? No
Is it easy to install and play? Not particularly

Melee already has a well established competitive community that predated SD remix by a decade. Changing the game that works as is will never really garner that much support.
PM has succeeded because it created a new playerbase by drawing Brawl and Melee players alike.
SD remix's audience is purely melee players, and really only has substantial appeal to low tier players who probably just switched to PM by now anyway.

Compound all of that with the entry barriers to play: modding a wii, and loading either custom gecko codes or an iso, and it is very easy to see why it's so unpopular.
 

Quillion

Smash Hero
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This is not meant as an attack on SD remix, I think it's pretty fun and appreciate the work that has gone into it. Think of this as a very honest line of reasoning as to why so few people play it. It is well known that I frequently play the devil's advocate, sorry in advance.

What does SD remix actually add other than buffing the most competitively unpopular characters?
Does it restore something that was removed (like L-cancelling/wavedashing/real combos in PM)? No
Is it basically a new game, like PM? No
Does it add new characters or moves? No
Is it easy to install and play? Not particularly

Melee already has a well established competitive community that predated SD remix by a decade. Changing the game that works as is will never really garner that much support.
PM has succeeded because it created a new playerbase by drawing Brawl and Melee players alike.
SD remix's audience is purely melee players, and really only has substantial appeal to low tier players who probably just switched to PM by now anyway.

Compound all of that with the entry barriers to play: modding a wii, and loading either custom gecko codes or an iso, and it is very easy to see why it's so unpopular.
That and PMDT abuses their powers as moderators of Smashboards by pushing it that way.
 

Massive

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PM is mainly what smashboards is for now. Seriously.
Most melee traffic has left for the far better fields of facebook/reddit/other places and it makes sense that the most popular remaining community will have the most moderators.

PMDT is likely not abusing their powers to repress anything. Having personal experience with this, I can tell you that the vast majority of smash players are not tech savvy at all. Even PM would not be popular if there was no easy way to launch it, and it now has a multiple year headstart on SD remix in terms of ease of access. I don't think it's possible for SD remix to catch up at this point.
 

Quillion

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PM is mainly what smashboards is for now. Seriously.
Most melee traffic has left for the far better fields of facebook/reddit/other places and it makes sense that the most popular remaining community will have the most moderators.

PMDT is likely not abusing their powers to repress anything. Having personal experience with this, I can tell you that the vast majority of smash players are not tech savvy at all. Even PM would not be popular if there was no easy way to launch it, and it now has a multiple year headstart on SD remix in terms of ease of access. I don't think it's possible for SD remix to catch up at this point.
Didn't say they were repressing anything; I said they're pushing PM that way.
 

Orancube

Smash Cadet
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Netherlands
As a melee player who plays neither, I can say I'm far more interested in P:M than SD remix.
Although I think both games are nicely made, and I have nothing against either of them.

P:M just seems alot more appealing to me because I don't play low tiers in melee anyway.
I'm more interested in a entire new cast, with ''new'' characters that also have a new touch to them. It's like playing the ''what should have been brawl''. While SD remix would feel like a patched melee rather than a stand alone game. Also I don't play any low tiers (on rare occasions I do), so it doesn't have much added value to me. It also isn't something I would like to see''replace'' melee because well, melee is just the game I love, regardless of wacky chars such as mewtwo. This makes me enjoy actually seeing players as aMSa or Bizarroflame for example.

Hopefully this helps to puts somethings in perspective for you!
 

Yeroc

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I'm really lost in trying to determine the point of this topic. You asked a question, then when people attempted to answer it, you either dismissed their suggestions or outright insulted them for reasons completely unrelated to the topic at hand. PM wasn't even being mentioned until you brought it up in context with one of its creators. Why bother asking then?
 

Quillion

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I'm really lost in trying to determine the point of this topic. You asked a question, then when people attempted to answer it, you either dismissed their suggestions or outright insulted them for reasons completely unrelated to the topic at hand. PM wasn't even being mentioned until you brought it up in context with one of its creators. Why bother asking then?
Just trying to promote the true Melee 2.0 here.
 

Massive

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Just trying to promote the true Melee 2.0 here.
Attacking people who enjoy PM is not the way to go about it.

Also, being that SD remix is a fan-patch that has never undergone any rigorous testing to make sure it was objectively balanced or even low in glitches, calling it Melee 2.0 is a pretty big stretch.
 

Spak

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Just trying to promote the true Melee 2.0 here.
Why would we need a Melee 2.0 if 1.0-1.2 didn't have any serious problems?

EDIT: Also, you said that the only things you see in tournament is Falco/Marth/Fox/Jiggs while Shiek, Falcon, and Peach are also high-tier. Not to mention the rest of the upper-half of the cast (mostly) have at least one high-level representative.
 
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Quillion

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Why would we need a Melee 2.0 if 1.0-1.2 didn't have any serious problems?

EDIT: Also, you said that the only things you see in tournament is Falco/Marth/Fox/Jiggs while Shiek, Falcon, and Peach are also high-tier. Not to mention the rest of the upper-half of the cast (mostly) have at least one high-level representative.
What about the lower half? Because I love how everyone here is just trying to say that constant use of the top four with ocassional use of the high-tiers means "the game is perfectly balanced and there's no way to make it better".
 
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Roukiske

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Personally I wouldn't mind something along the lines of a Super Puzzle Fighter HD Remix treatment from Nintendo to the WiiU. This is what they did:

- HD (though I think its optional, Melee looks good to me)
- Untouched Ver 1.0 of the game
- Remix (They took the counter gems from characters and attempted to balance them)

We have the choice to play either and heck even I'd give the remixed version a shot. I could care less for new characters in Melee, but it would be fun to see more out of the roster. Personally I wouldn't touch any of the high tiers and just buff everyone else slightly (which I think this SD remix is?). If remix is a bust then there's untouched 1.0 right there.

Still love melee though.

Sidenote: They changed the way the gems looked in HD and the community hated it so much that Capcom reverted the way the gems looked. Power of the community.
 

AirFair

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I mean the SD remix is nice and all because of the character changes but it honestly can't replace vanilla melee at this point. I'd love to play it but I doubt it would really see much tournament use.
 

Espi

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SD Remix is awesome. But let's be honest, how many people have actually heard of SD Remix? I think I'm gonna start bringing my SD remix setup around more often. Spread the word.
 
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Spak

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What about the lower half? Because I love how everyone here is just trying to say that constant use of the top four with ocassional use of the high-tiers means "the game is perfectly balanced and there's no way to make it better".
I'm not saying it is perfectly balanced, I'm saying it's balanced enough. A fan-made balance of the game probably isn't going to be completely unbiased. Even if this doesn't show up right now, the mod's shortcomings will surely be visible after millions of people have been playing it rigorously for 13 years. Just compare the numerous Melee Tier Lists to see how much the meta can change over time. Jiggs was in the lower half until 2008, Shiek was the top place for a long time, Falcon was in the low-mid area for the first tier list and then the mid-high area for quite a while before actually becoming on of the top-tiers, and the tier list was constantly changing as new things were found out for each character. I think one of the upsides of having about 6 top tiers and about 12 high tiers is that (with a few exceptions) they all balance each-other decently. True, Falcon does have a 30-70 matchup against Shiek, but a majority of the top-tiers go even with everyone else. If this mod actually brings attention and some detailed looks at character changes and new matchups, I think that after 13 years of the meta evolving, your mod wouldn't look so balanced after all.

TL;DR:
Nintendo's whole team put as much time as they could and a lot of effort into trying to balance Melee. The PM Dev team is still struggling to balance the game after multiple years of production. What makes you think your mod is so much more balanced?
 
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-ShadowPhoenix-

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This thread is pointless. If people can't be convinced to play PAL, the final release that Nintendo put out, what makes you think that they will want to play a fan made version where spacies are not 100% immune to counterpick by low tiers?
 

1MachGO

Smash Ace
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This thread is pointless. If people can't be convinced to play PAL, the final release that Nintendo put out, what makes you think that they will want to play a fan made version where spacies are not 100% immune to counterpick by low tiers?
This is rather non sequitor. You seem to be implying that NTSC regions actually had access to the PAL version; deemed it inferior, and thus, didn't play it.

There probably wouldn't even be enough PAL copies in the world to replace every NTSC version so the region differences are permanent even if we didn't want them to be.
 

Quillion

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I think that after 13 years of the meta evolving, your mod wouldn't look so balanced after all.

TL;DR:
Nintendo's whole team put as much time as they could and a lot of effort into trying to balance Melee. The PM Dev team is still struggling to balance the game after multiple years of production. What makes you think your mod is so much more balanced?
And SDR is still in active development while the vMelee metagame rages on; point?
 

Spak

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And SDR is still in active development while the vMelee metagame rages on; point?
My point is that no matter how hard you try, the mod's top tier is (likely) never going to be as balanced as Melee's top tier is right now (meaning nearly everyone in the top has a decent matchup against each-other). True, the low-tiers aren't very good, but in Melee, it is still possible to win with them (like M2K with Roy, aMSa with Yoshi, etc.) In addition, it will be a great frustration to a majority of the community if you change even a little bit of their character that they have been mastering for years. It will throw off their game and yes, they would adjust, but why would they? A lot of people who mained low-tiers in Melee (I assume your target audience?) have switched to PM and don't plan on switching back, the vast majority of Melee players at the moment adore their game as it is and while it isn't perfect, it's what we have come to love over the years. Sorry if I appear harsh and a bit mean, but that's the way I feel about the matter.
 

DeepDish

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So I've only played 2 builds of SD Remix, the very first demo and the final build. I have to say, the latest update is an absolute ton of fun. I don't think we'll ever see any big tournaments use it. That being said, it's still awesome to have and play with friends at home. Nothing's going to replace vanilla Melee. Whether you see that as a negative or a positive is up to you. It has a rich history in the competitive scene and has had more success than any other Smash game in the pro scene. A mod isn't needed to make the game more appealing at this point.
 

Boiko

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I don't think enough people have a problem with Melee or want to change melee for SD remix to actually be viable. I mean, PM is Brawl modded to be like Melee. The game is actually growing in popularity 13 years after its release. People love Melee for what it is, and don't want to change that, low tier heroes included.

Sure, this doesn't apply to everyone, but the majority, I think so.
 

krazyzyko

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Yo. l've been around forever and this is the first time l've heard of this Dx

So the answer might be that it's barely known and most tournaments have NTSC melee as the standard.

l'm intrigued though, how can l play that mod?
 

Quillion

Smash Hero
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Yo. l've been around forever and this is the first time l've heard of this Dx

So the answer might be that it's barely known and most tournaments have NTSC melee as the standard.

l'm intrigued though, how can l play that mod?
The preferred method is by running it on a Gamecube loader in Wii Homebrew. You can check the details in the SDR link in my sig.

Also, make sure you have something that works with DIOS MIOS. I recommend an SDHC card from SanDisk.

Back on Topic: Okay, maybe I've been a little too insolent with SDR. I've softened up a lot, and I've realized maybe SDR should be only a side thing right now. Maybe it could be bigger, but as a side event, it could certainly work out.
 

Jebus244

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Most people in the community don't particularly value a well balanced roster
I think this is untrue. Instead, when people say this, I think (I hope) what they are really saying is it's better to have fewer characters that are well balanced than many characters that are unbalanced.

I hope for and imagine a game with at least 6-8 characters that play wildly different, but when mastered, their matchups are very even. I think melee has this.
 
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SAUS

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I didn't know it existed. On top of that, I already main a low tier and don't give a ****. I wouldn't bother trying to switch games when no one else I know is playing it. Even if it is similar, it is still different.

Seems like a lot of people mention the lack of balance in melee. It honestly hardly matters. Even if you can't make it above the levels of the top players, you can go ridiculously far with low and mid tier characters since there is so much room for skill in this game.

At the top level, you still see a decent amount of characters being used. I would definitely be sad to see only one character being played at the very top, but that hasn't happened at all. On top of that, people get so caught up in who won some tournament, when the people who won it could probably beat them with over half the cast regardless of who they play.

I don't know. The amount of "melee is not balanced" talk in this thread bugged me.
 

1MachGO

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I didn't know it existed. On top of that, I already main a low tier and don't give a ****. I wouldn't bother trying to switch games when no one else I know is playing it. Even if it is similar, it is still different.

Seems like a lot of people mention the lack of balance in melee. It honestly hardly matters. Even if you can't make it above the levels of the top players, you can go ridiculously far with low and mid tier characters since there is so much room for skill in this game.

At the top level, you still see a decent amount of characters being used. I would definitely be sad to see only one character being played at the very top, but that hasn't happened at all. On top of that, people get so caught up in who won some tournament, when the people who won it could probably beat them with over half the cast regardless of who they play.

I don't know. The amount of "melee is not balanced" talk in this thread bugged me.
Yeah, the amount of options/mix ups in this game go pretty understated. Its funny to tune into Mango's stream and see him beat high caliber players like Lucky with his Mario. It goes to show that much of the tier disparagement isn't just lack of potential but a lack of motivation to develop and succeed with that character.

Of course, the ruleset also tends to "gimp" a lot of low tiers by default.
 
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Roukiske

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To be completely honest, I think most Melee players are happy the way Melee is, which might be why no one feels the need to try an alternative. Even with its flaws, I think people just genuinely love Melee as is.

As far as I know that's how many of my friends feel anyways.
 

SimplyMilk

Smash Rookie
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Feb 14, 2015
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5
You sure did it, Quillion!
You convinced me!
You convinced me never to even consider Remix SD!
Good job!
:)))
 
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