Why do some mechanics get taken out?

[PCHU]

If a random person played Melee and than decided hey I'm going to try to get really good at this game. Well you've got a lot of work to do. To even think of competing you're first going spend hundreds of hours learning and implementing advanced techniques.
Nintendo is a business and has to make money. A big part of that is appealing to the masses. Techniques that will take you hundreds of hours to master is not appealing to potential customers.

It can still be played casually, though, which is something many don't consider and, honestly, lots of people could care less about techs -- they just want a fun game.

 

[LancerStaff]

It can still be played casually, though, which is something many don't consider and, honestly, lots of people could care less about techs -- they just want a fun game.

But as soon as they're dragged out online, people hate them. People will hate on almost anything used by better players, even completely intentional mechanics in the game such as weapon fusion in KIU. I'm not saying they should remove weapon fusion, but things in casual-oriented franchises that multiply the gap should simply just go, regardless of effect. Yes, this is potentially a very destructive belief, but when the game is supposed to appeal to many, it's necessary. Appealing specifically to one group directly and negatively effects another. Sakurai has always been appealing to the silent majority, and I'd say Melee was a failure in that aspect.

 

[Rhubarbo]

But as soon as they're dragged out online, people hate them. People will hate on almost anything used by better players, even completely intentional mechanics in the game such as weapon fusion in KIU. I'm not saying they should remove weapon fusion, but things in casual-oriented franchises that multiply the gap should simply just go, regardless of effect. Yes, this is potentially a very destructive belief, but when the game is supposed to appeal to many, it's necessary. Appealing specifically to one group directly and negatively effects another. Sakurai has always been appealing to the silent majority, and I'd say Melee was a failure in that aspect.

Fine tuned skill-based matchmaking could mitigate a lot of the frustration you mentioned, though. Moreover, an in game Dojo, that teaches advanced techs could do wonders on casuals.

At the end of the day, though, I think Sakurai is hell bent on preventing Smash from being tournament viable. He just doesn't want it to have that visage whatsoever.

 

[LancerStaff]

Fine tuned skill-based matchmaking could mitigate a lot of the frustration you mentioned, though. Moreover, an in game Dojo, that teaches advanced techs could do wonders on casuals.

At the end of the day, though, I think Sakurai is hell bent on preventing Smash from being tournament viable. He just doesn't want it to have that visage whatsoever.

Sakurai is against rankings, and indirectly standard matchmaking features.

It's not that he doesn't want it to exist, he doesn't want it to be so far disconnected from normal play. He wants a simple extension of casual play not revolving around mystery tricks and secret techniques. Getting better at SSB should be straightforward.

About how it's not like Melee... Isn't Japan ultimately more interested in Brawl? I surely know I am. Japan even thinks Fox was great in Brawl, and he was nerfed quite a bit now. This could simply all be because he listened to one side of competitive play instead of the other.

 

[nessokman]

But as soon as they're dragged out online, people hate them. People will hate on almost anything used by better players, even completely intentional mechanics in the game such as weapon fusion in KIU. I'm not saying they should remove weapon fusion, but things in casual-oriented franchises that multiply the gap should simply just go, regardless of effect. Yes, this is potentially a very destructive belief, but when the game is supposed to appeal to many, it's necessary. Appealing specifically to one group directly and negatively effects another. Sakurai has always been appealing to the silent majority, and I'd say Melee was a failure in that aspect.

Just gonna say, uprising is my favorite 3DS game and in my top 10 favorites of all time, but weapon fusion is horribly broken.

Getting a bow with forward dash charge shot +4, charge shot +1, and petrification leads to guaranteed 1 hit kills.

Also a reason for mechanics being removed is them not working with the new game engine/physics.

 

[nessokman]

Sakurai is against rankings, and indirectly standard matchmaking features.

It's not that he doesn't want it to exist, he doesn't want it to be so far disconnected from normal play. He wants a simple extension of casual play not revolving around mystery tricks and secret techniques. Getting better at SSB should be straightforward.

About how it's not like Melee... Isn't Japan ultimately more interested in Brawl? I surely know I am. Japan even thinks Fox was great in Brawl, and he was nerfed quite a bit now. This could simply all be because he listened to one side of competitive play instead of the other.

I believe sakurai said that the number of ins you have in "for glory" helps pair you with people of equal standings. Don't quote me on it though.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

It seems that over the years Smash gets less and less mechanics with each new installment after Melee (note that the Wii U version played was a demo and not the final game but I'm still speculating). Usually when games get a sequel they expand upon existing mechanics and add new ones to the table, but why do feel as if with each new smash I have less to work with? What was wrong with dash dancing? Or L-cancelling?? I used to have so much control over my character's movement but now it just feels so limited.

I can understand if something is broken or unintuitive. Wavedashing I can understand but something as simple as just fluidly moving back and forth on the ground is no longer being implemented. It continues the trend of taking a step forward with content but a step backward with gameplay. I am really curious for the reasoning behind cutting mechanics that were perfectly fine to begin with.

My thought is simply for rectifying old mistakes or changing things up. If you think about Smash64 -> Melee. A ton of stuff got added and very little actually got changed or removed.
-Tech walls, ceiling.
-DI not simply SDI
-Air dodge/spot dodge
-Air item catching
-Side specials
-Zair
-Ledge jump

From Melee -> Brawl. The only thing I can think of that got removed was L/Z-canceling. Wavedash was simply a result of a changed air dodge. Over all it seems like smash only changes up what they had in previous installments. Which actually is not all that different from even regular games.

 

[RODO]

My thought is simply for rectifying old mistakes or changing things up. If you think about Smash64 -> Melee. A ton of stuff got added and very little actually got changed or removed.
-Tech walls, ceiling.
-DI not simply SDI
-Air dodge/spot dodge
-Air item catching
-Side specials
-Zair
-Ledge jump

From Melee -> Brawl. The only thing I can think of that got removed was L/Z-canceling. Wavedash was simply a result of a changed air dodge. Over all it seems like smash only changes up what they had in previous installments. Which actually is not all that different from even regular games.

Dash dancing also was not viable.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

True, but that comes from another changed mechanic rather than added or removed. Dash dance was possible because you had a very large window with which to dash backwards on. In Brawl, you still could dash dance, but it was severly restricted due to different windows. What became of it in brawl is the ability to make very tight dash backs within 1-3 frames of dashing forward (if I recall) for pivot grabs and such. Plus, you could dash backwards just before you came to a skidding halt animation.

In a way, dash dance was never removed. If you alternate fast enough you can "dash dance" with any character. But, you have to be doing it within the first 3 or so frames of the dash.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PscBUdZVnLM

Problem is that is fairly pointless to implement is all. Therefore, dash dancing was changed to be nerfed in a way lol

 

[RODO]

True, but that comes from another changed mechanic rather than added or removed. Dash dance was possible because you had a very large window with which to dash backwards on. In Brawl, you still could dash dance, but it was severly restricted due to different windows. What became of it in brawl is the ability to make very tight dash backs within 1-3 frames of dashing forward (if I recall) for pivot grabs and such. Plus, you could dash backwards just before you came to a skidding halt animation.

In a way, dash dance was never removed. If you alternate fast enough you can "dash dance" with any character. But, you have to be doing it within the first 3 or so frames of the dash.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PscBUdZVnLM

Problem is that is fairly pointless to implement is all. Therefore, dash dancing was changed to be nerfed in a way lol

Yeah that's what I meant by not viable. Having played brawl competitively I was aware that you could technically do it just not use it effectively or in the way melee used it. Flash step tech was still nice for quick pivots and smash 4 still has that.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

lol I only just realized you said not viable. I read that whole thing to mean "removed" lol Stupid brain of mine.

 

[RODO]

lol I only just realized you said not viable. I read that whole thing to mean "removed" lol Stupid brain of mine.

haha it's fine

Dash dancing is the one true mechanic that should come back. If I press left I should go left and right when I push right. Making me pause for trying to do so will always give me the impression that I have less control over my character than I should have. I may never understand.

 

[RODO]

Double post, sorry :/

 

[HeroMystic]

My thought is simply for rectifying old mistakes or changing things up. If you think about Smash64 -> Melee. A ton of stuff got added and very little actually got changed or removed.
-Tech walls, ceiling.
-DI not simply SDI
-Air dodge/spot dodge
-Air item catching
-Side specials
-Zair
-Ledge jump

From Melee -> Brawl. The only thing I can think of that got removed was L/Z-canceling. Wavedash was simply a result of a changed air dodge. Over all it seems like smash only changes up what they had in previous installments. Which actually is not all that different from even regular games.

Moonwalking, Crouch Cancel, and Dash Cancel were also removed. However Brawl added in a slew of new ATs that the community found that more or less made the same trend. The biggest ones being Momentum Cancelling and DACUS.

---

It happens with every franchise, be it a fighting game franchise or not. Funnily, the Smash fandom is the only fandom I know, who complain about the removal of mechanics... for years. The Street Fighter scene complained about the lack of parrying in Street Fighter 4, but they moved on and embraced the game, which is amazing. Things need to be changed, regardless of some purists liking it or not. Melee wasn't the same as the original game, then why should Brawl and Sm4sh be the same as Melee? Melee ain't special, it is just a game as any other in the series.

This actually isn't completely true. Players of MvC2 hated MvC3 originally due to X-Factor being horribly overpowered. It wasn't until Capcom updated the game with UMvC3 that people started to settle in. The same with Street Fighter 4, as the main complaint I remember from the original rendition is it felt slow and too basic.

The main problem is until now, Nintendo has not shown any interest in balancing the game for competitive means. Other companies have listened to complaints and made balance patches (or in Capcom's case, released a new game) to fix those issues, which is why competitive players don't complain nearly as much as we do. Their requests don't fall on deaf ears.

 

[Light-Kratos]

It saddened me when Sakurai said during e3 that he made sure that the characters were also balanced for ffa and item matches. I really can't understand this logic, since the only people playing this way are casuals who, by definition, do not care at all if a character is OP in FFA, because they can't realise how OP a character is.

I find it normal that some mechanics change though. We're here to get a new game, not Brawl 2 or melee 2 aka PM.

 

[_yuna]

Sakurai is the antithesis of competition. He feels noone should be decidedly better than anyone else. And his games reflect his mentality. That's all there is to it.

But unfortunately for Sakurai it is in human nature to be competitive. So Sakurai's vision of a perfect Smash game is but a feeble pipedream.

 

[thrillagorilla]

I tried to post this last night, but pushed post right after the servers went down for maintenance. XD

I've been reading a lot about "casuals" and "catering" among other things and I just wanted to point a few things out.

A) There is no evidence to support the claim that "casual" players prefer simpler mechanics. I've met more that like the advanced tech than are upset by it. Most of the people that didn't like it thought (sometimes out loud) that they were better than everyone else and become mad when they were publicly proven wrong. This by no means is true of all new players to the competitive scene, but since there have been observations of all kinds when it comes to casual attitudes towards advanced tech it would be unwise to assume that there is a large number of undocumented players that prefer the game without it.

B) I saw references to Mario Kart DS and figured I'd nip that conversation in the bud. Snaking breaks game-play, wave-dashing does not. It is perfectly possible to win a game of Melee without advanced techniques when your opponent is using them, but not Mario Kart DS. Hungry-Box is a perfect example of this. He doesn't need the advanced techniques to win a game, though he is certainly skilled enough to use them.

 

[LancerStaff]

Just gonna say, uprising is my favorite 3DS game and in my top 10 favorites of all time, but weapon fusion is horribly broken.

Getting a bow with forward dash charge shot +4, charge shot +1, and petrification leads to guaranteed 1 hit kills.

Also a reason for mechanics being removed is them not working with the new game engine/physics.

No offense, but you're right in between casual and hardcore in KIU. All but a few weapons can OHKO, and the metagame is based around it. A weapon's power doesn't determine how quickly it KOs essentially, but how many mods you need to do so. Take Eyetrack Orbitars for example, a set with SR3 SH3 and (F)DCS4 can OHKO easily, but the shots are canceled easily and there's not much value left for defense, speed, or using less value to lessen the effects of death. The Magnus Club, which you've most certainly dealt with, only needs a DCS mod to OHKO and has tons of value left over. But it's short ranged even with SR3 and easily kited. I've beaten Magnus clubs with a freezing4 Tiger Claws for fun on more then a few occasions. The weapon in my avatar can OHKO at 300m and closer and is still considered an average weapon, to put some perspective on the metagame.

I believe sakurai said that the number of ins you have in "for glory" helps pair you with people of equal standings. Don't quote me on it though.

I'm doubtful it's a real matchmaking system. It's probably just so complete noobs don't get stuck with pros on a regular basis like in KIU.

It saddened me when Sakurai said during e3 that he made sure that the characters were also balanced for ffa and item matches. I really can't understand this logic, since the only people playing this way are casuals who, by definition, do not care at all if a character is OP in FFA, because they can't realise how OP a character is.

I find it normal that some mechanics change though. We're here to get a new game, not Brawl 2 or melee 2 aka PM.

Kirby is OP! Ban pls. Ike is OP! Ban pls. I could go on with this for a while...

Sakurai is the antithesis of competition. He feels noone should be decidedly better than anyone else. And his games reflect his mentality. That's all there is to it.

But unfortunately for Sakurai it is in human nature to be competitive. So Sakurai's vision of a perfect Smash game is but a feeble pipedream.

He feels that the best being better then the worst should be an extension of casual play without mystery move and secret techniques, to repeat myself. And Brawl was competitive too, so why is it a sin that Sakurai chose one group over the other?

I tried to post this last night, but pushed post right after the servers went down for maintenance. XD

I've been reading a lot about "casuals" and "catering" among other things and I just wanted to point a few things out.

A) There is no evidence to support the claim that "casual" players prefer simpler mechanics. I've met more that like the advanced tech than are upset by it. Most of the people that didn't like it thought (sometimes out loud) that they were better than everyone else and become mad when they were publicly proven wrong. This by no means is true of all new players to the competitive scene, but since there have been observations of all kinds when it comes to casual attitudes towards advanced tech it would be unwise to assume that there is a large number of undocumented players that prefer the game without it.

B) I saw references to Mario Kart DS and figured I'd nip that conversation in the bud. Snaking breaks game-play, wave-dashing does not. It is perfectly possible to win a game of Melee without advanced techniques when your opponent is using them, but not Mario Kart DS. Hungry-Box is a perfect example of this. He doesn't need the advanced techniques to win a game, though he is certainly skilled enough to use them.

There's still a massive aversion to 'techs.' I'll be repeating myself again, but MK8's firehopping, a technique that saves about a second total across an entire race on certain courses, is already widely known and widely hated.

 

[ThomasTheTrain]

It happens with every franchise, be it a fighting game franchise or not. Funnily, the Smash fandom is the only fandom I know, who complain about the removal of mechanics... for years. The Street Fighter scene

I'd say a lot of of competitive games retain their mechanics, quake has retained strafe jumpin and its movement for basically ever, CS removed a lot of mechanics in CSS, and people got furious and CS:GO brought them back. Sc2 brought back a lot of the core, AoE II and the newer AoE II have most of the same mechanics (pathing changes). CoD, kept the same mechanics for a really long time as well, i'd say fighting games are pretty unique in that they will remove some mechanics generation to generation and still keep fandom happy (though people were upset about SF2 to SF3 and even to 4 but that's a lot more of a minority than the melee community is.)

Also I'm curious just how indepth stats customization is, maybe we can reduce landing lag in the game? Maybe we can basically edit the general physics of the game. (i can wish)

 

[thrillagorilla]

There's still a massive aversion to 'techs.' I'll be repeating myself again, but MK8's firehopping, a technique that saves about a second total across an entire race on certain courses, is already widely known and widely hated.

As I noted in the post you quoted, I have seen no data supporting your claim that there is a massive aversion to 'techs'. Saying something is true or making a claim with no data and/or example to support it is no different than me trying to claim in a debate that Sony as a brand is superior in all products because I heard offhand from some random person I don't know that they make the best TVs. There is a major flaw in the logic.

 

[Canuckduck]

Wavedashing = Exploit

 

[LancerStaff]

As I noted in the post you quoted, I have seen no data supporting your claim that there is a massive aversion to 'techs'. Saying something is true or making a claim with no data and/or example to support it is no different than me trying to claim in a debate that Sony as a brand is superior in all products because I heard offhand from some random person I don't know that they make the best TVs. There is a major flaw in the logic.

Snaking. Firehopping. 'Techs' in other games. Here's an article on the second.
http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2...-kart-8s-controversial-fire-hopping-technique
This is a previously mentioned 'technique' that saves very little time. The comments are basically a flame-war, and they're pretty tame compared to other articles I've seen on the same, almost useless, technique.

Wavedashing = Exploit

I've had this argument before, yaknow. Things like 'exploit' and 'tech' have incredibly loose definitions. The words are meaningless. I only use the words myself because calling Wavedashing a glitch causes arguments here, and only here. In the Super Metroid community, we laugh at people who get overly defensive over a line of buggy code and people use 'exploit' and 'glitch' interchangably.

 

[Ulevo]

My thought is simply for rectifying old mistakes or changing things up. If you think about Smash64 -> Melee. A ton of stuff got added and very little actually got changed or removed.
-Tech walls, ceiling.
-DI not simply SDI
-Air dodge/spot dodge
-Air item catching
-Side specials
-Zair
-Ledge jump

From Melee -> Brawl. The only thing I can think of that got removed was L/Z-canceling. Wavedash was simply a result of a changed air dodge. Over all it seems like smash only changes up what they had in previous installments. Which actually is not all that different from even regular games.

Reflecting projectiles via shield was removed. Light shielding was removed. Wall clings with grappels were removed. Crouching out of a run was removed. Crouch cancelling was removed. Ledge techs were removed. DJC on certain characters were removed. Jab resets were removed.

And this doesn't include individual character technique changes, things that were removed due to Brawl additions, and physics changes.

 

[ChikoLad]

It saddened me when Sakurai said during e3 that he made sure that the characters were also balanced for ffa and item matches. I really can't understand this logic, since the only people playing this way are casuals who, by definition, do not care at all if a character is OP in FFA, because they can't realise how OP a character is.

I find it normal that some mechanics change though. We're here to get a new game, not Brawl 2 or melee 2 aka PM.

Not true. I know many casuals who pay attention to balance, and can tell when something is unbalanced, even on an FFA setting. The game needs to be fair for them too, and not make them feel like their favourite characters are crap.

----------------------

Things like wavedashing and dash-dancing are gone (or really hard to use in the case of the latter) because they look jerky and unnatural. They break immersion, and remind you that this is in fact a video game. Video games are generally supposed to immerse us, so things like this are undesirable for a designer.

The overall best explanation for the removal of glitches/exploits is the fact that each game is developed for entirely different hardware and is built from the ground up, meaning some things simply get lost in translation. They are not going to aim to recreate a glitch that they accidentally created in a different engine on a different console, especially since they probably don't even know how they got it there in the first place.

They attempt to recreate the necessary mechanics each game, such as the moves of veterans, the general ability to shield or jump, etc, but glitches/techs/exploits are things they probably don't even know how to implement themselves in most cases because they didn't intend to put them there in the first place.

 

[Ulevo]

Stuff.

Mandatory reply mentioning that 99% of these things were not glitches or exploits.

 

[thrillagorilla]

Snaking. Firehopping. 'Techs' in other games. Here's an article on the second.
http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2...-kart-8s-controversial-fire-hopping-technique
This is a previously mentioned 'technique' that saves very little time. The comments are basically a flame-war, and they're pretty tame compared to other articles I've seen on the same, almost useless, technique.

Thank you for the link, much appreciated. I don't have time to do an analysis until tonight at the earliest, but I will try to get it in as soon as I can.

 

[Raise]

While things like this tend to make the game more fun and exciting in a competitive environment, these things were never meant to be in the game. It's one of those things that's not gamebreaking and technically everybody can do it, so it's tournament legal but it's still /technically/ an exploit.

Anyone who's played competitive Halo 2 I'm sure fondly remembers the BXR, BXB, doubleshot and quadshot "exploits" that were legal in tournaments and gave essentially the same small advantages to those who mastered them that things like wavedashing and L-cancelling do in this game. But the really super advantageous stuff like superbouncing on top of the map was obviously banned in tournament play.

 

[thesage]

I don't understand the mentality of balancing for a free for all vs. 1v1s. Would the higher tiers be any different in previous smash games if we did free for all tournaments instead?

 

[Shiliski]

That's not entirely fair, since most of those things were fairly logical things that 64 was missing, especially all the directional things; it's kind of hard to add new specials/throws/etc. at this point since they're already using all the main directions you can point a control stick, and barring a weird new controller there isn't much more to do.

L-Cancelling was in 64 btw

Actually it's perfectly fair. One game doesn't make a trend. Melee was better for competitive players than Brawl was. Melee was also better for competitive players than 64 was. That doesn't say that the Smash series is constantly going more and more casual. That only says that Melee was a peak in the Smash series for competitive play. Saying that a supposed trend isn't actually a trend in this case is a perfectly valid point. If S4 continues to cater less to competitive players than even Brawl did, THEN we can call it a trend, but one data point can never be a trend.

The truth is, barring certain circumstances (such as a mechanic becoming irrelevant), more control = higher skill cap, and higher skill caps are better for competition. Melee had more control than Brawl or 64, and well gee whaddya know, Melee was also the game that competitive players cling to.

Things like wavedashing and dash-dancing are gone (or really hard to use in the case of the latter) because they look jerky and unnatural. They break immersion, and remind you that this is in fact a video game. Video games are generally supposed to immerse us, so things like this are undesirable for a designer.

While I understand this point of view, I also feel a need to point out the fact that I liked Melee because it felt video gamey. It was essentially a video game about video games and so it just felt right to me.

I don't understand the mentality of balancing for a free for all vs. 1v1s. Would the higher tiers be any different in previous smash games if we did free for all tournaments instead?

There might be some changes. Characters who had area attacks would have a better chance. Combos would be less important because a third player could interrupt them. Knocking opponents away in order to deal with the next opponent would be more important. There would be more stalling as some players will attempt to stay out of the fight only to swoop in at the last minute and secure the win after everyone else is worn down, which means that characters who can stall better would have a better chance.

It would also be a lot harder to ban stalling, because sometimes you just get knocked away from the fighting and you have NO reason to risk an approach when you can just snipe from a distance and force your opponent to come to you. Anything that would ban stalling would also ban several legitimate strategies. This is also bad because people are naturally going to Play to Win, but if the game is made such that Playing to Win leads to boring gameplay then the game as a whole suffers. Playing to Win needs to be fun or the game is not going to last in any competitive scene.

Come to think of it, most of these changes are pretty negative, which is probably why competitive Smash centers around 1v1.


(Edited a few times because I didn't want to double post.)

 

[thesage]

The only really good area attacks I can think of off of the top of my head are Meta Knight's tornado and Peach's D-smash.

 

[Dapplegonger]

We might have moved away from this discussion already, but I just want everybody to remember that melee was overall a big mistake. It and the mechanics were poorly designed, but this coincidentally and accidentally made the game competitive . Melee could have been the sonic 06 of smash, and we were lucky it wasn't. The reason melee mechanics aren't in brawl isn't necessarily because he removed them, it's because he did what he originally intended for the game.

 

[NoiseHERO]

How come when I lose in melee I feel dark souls frustration, like it's mostly my fault for sucking that I can only barely match a lvl 9 computer.

But when I lose in brawl I'm like "WTF IS THIS ****"??

Does that mean in Sm4sh I'll feel a confusing mix of both after the hype wears off?

 

[RODO]

People like to bring up mechanics being accidental when really only one was. You can even argue that while wavedashing itself was not intended, the physics engine that allowed it certainly was making it only pseudo accidental. Most of the mechanics I'm talking about were definitely intended and removing them only took away depth from people who wanted it.

It's silly because even though I'd be quick to support casuals for items being taken away or modes being left out, I feel like most will never support us even though the outcome will hardly affect them. Casuals know what make the game fun and we know what makes the game solid. Together we could help make a great game.

 

[Shiliski]

We might have moved away from this discussion already, but I just want everybody to remember that melee was overall a big mistake. It and the mechanics were poorly designed, but this coincidentally and accidentally made the game competitive . Melee could have been the sonic 06 of smash, and we were lucky it wasn't. The reason melee mechanics aren't in brawl isn't necessarily because he removed them, it's because he did what he originally intended for the game.

Even if this is true, it's a happy accident.

 

[LancerStaff]

Mandatory reply mentioning that 99% of these things were not glitches or exploits.

Mandatory reply mentioning that we have absolutely no idea what anything that's not L-canceling really is, and are usually defined by loose definitions.

 

[Ulevo]

Mandatory reply mentioning that we have absolutely no idea what anything that's not L-canceling really is, and are usually defined by loose definitions.

No, not really.

 

[LancerStaff]

No, not really.

Can you back yourself up? Show me where Sakurai says crouch canceling, dash dancing, Wavedashing, desyncing, SDI, double jump canceling, Moonwalking, or even combos were intentional.

 

[Ulevo]

Can you back yourself up? Show me where Sakurai says crouch canceling, dash dancing, Wavedashing, desyncing, SDI, double jump canceling, Moonwalking, or even combos were intentional.

Wavedashing is in its own context. That's a technique or term we coined to describe something that the development team knew was possible but were not aware of its potential use.

Everything else? Why do I need to provide proof. They're mechanics that are working as intended, with clear, simplistic application. You really believe SDI wasn't intentional when it was in Smash 3 games in a row? Combos have been in two of them. Like. You need to purposely code for things like DJC and crouch cancelling in order for them to even work.

Trying to prove this to you is like trying to prove to you that air exists. It's really a stupid argument to have.

 

[LancerStaff]

Wavedashing is in its own context. That's a technique or term we coined to describe something that the development team knew was possible but were not aware of its potential use.

Everything else? Why do I need to provide proof. They're mechanics that are working as intended, with clear, simplistic application. You really believe SDI wasn't intentional when it was in Smash 3 games in a row? Combos have been in two of them. Like. You need to purposely code for things like DJC and crouch cancelling in order for them to even work.

Trying to prove this to you is like trying to prove to you that air exists. It's really a stupid argument to have.

'Nuff said.

...Actually, get your facts straight. Claiming there's only two official Smash games with combos makes you look like a blind hater. http://www.ssbwiki.com/Combos

 

[Ulevo]

'Nuff said.

...Actually, get your facts straight. Claiming there's only two official Smash games with combos makes you look like a blind hater. http://www.ssbwiki.com/Combos

Believe me, LancerStaff. I think Brawl's a terrible game, but I'm more capable of looking at Smash games objectively than you are.

And I know combos exist in Brawl. I'm generalizing. No one really cares you can do crap like down throw to forward smash Meta Knight with Marth at 0%.