Why do people think Brawl is "less" competitive than Melee?

[Spyda]

OK. I am tired of seeing things like Brawl<Melee or Brawl physics suck.
Point blank if you do not like Brawl, DO NOT PLAY IT. It is that simple.
Do not argue that Melee's amazing advance techs. and physics are superior to brawl.
What made them more superior? Because it was slightly faster? I was not by any means a PRO player, but I did do adv. techs and one of my real life best friends was Gimpyfish and I played with him all the time, so do not count me off as some "noob" that didn't know his way around Melee.

I find Brawl to actually be MORE competitive than Melee. It requires much more thinking and planning out, like another fighting game that comes to mind, SSF 3rd Strike. While I know comparing two different games is quite hard, at least hear me out.

I have noticed, while playing my friends who were scrubs at Melee, they continue to be scrubs, but also told me that we would all be on a level playing field in Brawl. It may have held true for the first few hours, but once I got the hang of the game's new physics, I started to embarrass them. Not because I had my amazing dash forward, WD back, wait for them to miss on a forward smash, and come in and punish them; but instead I continue to play smarter than them and was trying to out predict their moves. The more I played, the better I got and the more the gap widened.

Then, when I play the guys who WERE good at Melee, both tech-wise and mind-game wise, I found myself getting pretty good matches and even getting completely slaughtered.

It is simply the art of playing smart and actually having to TRY to be better than the other person. You cannot simply walk in and expect to out Tech your opponent and have them being left in the dust anymore (well for now until something is discovered). You have to play smart and try to think out your moves before you just mindless try to pummel someone.

I know I will get a lot of flames and disagreements, but if you can fully articulate why and what you think is better/worst, please by all means, post it and I will try my best to reply with a well-thought out counter-argument. I am not here to troll or bash on anyone, I would just simply like some smart and constructive criticism on my theory and thoughts on Brawl>Melee and vice versa.

Thanks.

 

[ADHD]

Well unfortunately seeing how this game doesn't take much skill at all to be good, and the only real techs right now aren't too useful, everyone is going to be near the same level... The pros are going to have a bad time sticking out, I can just see big tornaments being won by random ppl once ppl start getting intensely into it. Don't forget mindgames, the only real character for mindgames is squirtle since his hydroplaning and shellshifting.

But it is a fact melee is alot more for serious people, brawl is just to help the smash-declined community get a boost of self-esteem.

 

[Dreiko]

I lolled at your title....TF2 ftw :D.

 

[Spyda]

To be completely honest with you, ChromePirate, I think you are wrong. Melee is for more "serious" people? So the rest of us Brawlers are jokes then? I do not see many of the old school Pro players saying the same thing. They are adapting and learning. To me, it sounds like the only mind game you think of so far is, shellshifting and hydroplaning, but I would have to disagree.

What about proper spacing? Did you automatically know how to space correctly when you first started? I highly doubt it. Do you always go in for the simply dash attack after a dash or do you dash grab or do you even shield and then attack out of it?
Those are just a few examples, I have plenty more. Just because we cant WD backwards and inwards again to punish, doesn't mean we don't have mind games.

I lolled at your title....TF2 ftw :D.

Thanks! =D

 

[_X_]

Well unfortunately seeing how this game doesn't take much skill at all to be good, and the only real techs right now aren't too useful, everyone is going to be near the same level... The pros are going to have a bad time sticking out, I can just see big tornaments being won by random ppl once ppl start getting intensely into it. Don't forget mindgames, the only real character for mindgames is squirtle since his hydroplaning and shellshifting.

But it is a fact melee is alot more for serious people, brawl is just to help the smash-declined community get a boost of self-esteem.

You have no idea what you're talking about.

 

[Replacement100]

Well unfortunately seeing how this game doesn't take much skill at all to be good, and the only real techs right now aren't too useful, everyone is going to be near the same level... The pros are going to have a bad time sticking out, I can just see big tornaments being won by random ppl once ppl start getting intensely into it. Don't forget mindgames, the only real character for mindgames is squirtle since his hydroplaning and shellshifting.

But it is a fact melee is alot more for serious people, brawl is just to help the smash-declined community get a boost of self-esteem.

Here we have a user that judges skill and mindgames via button mashing and 'advanced techs'.
Needless to say, chances are he's horrible at chess.

 

[Keitaro]

Brawl is less competitive than Melee. That doesn't make Brawl bad at all just makes it harder for people to branch off as better than someone else.

Also, the people that were good at Melee were good for reasons. The scrubs continue to be scrubs cause they don't have the Melee understanding translated into Brawl cause they never had the Melee understanding.

IE: Someone that doesn't know how to simply up-throw u-air with Fox certainly won't be able to pick up ZSS's d-throw/u-throw u-air abilities as fast as someone like you.

 

[distr0ia]

well, it seems to be a lot easier for newcomers to pick up and play

I'm not holding that against the game or anything, but that may be the reason for the things you're hearing

 

[Umby]

People find it more competitive for the fact that the lesser skilled players who couldn't play Melee as well as they did are now playing Brawl. They don't really like that fact, so they get the whole "BUT I'M BETTER THAN YOU IN MELEE" type of mindset.

Also, when things look a lot faster, as they do in Melee, players look more "Pro" in the eyes of an average competitor. With things slowed down in Brawl, most people think it looks easy to play. For example, in my dorm, people would play Smash64 for the fact that they were "good" at it (false) but would never play Melee because it "sucked".

IMO the basic opinion comes from the ability factor, whereas players who sit down and practice waveshining with Fox all day will generally look down on players who don't try, but still want to consider themselves good. In retrospect, those players (not you in particular, Spyda) that don't try will enter Brawl and tell Melee players to "adapt or don't play" simply because the change in things have potential to make them good. I mean I've actually talked to people that are glad Wavedashing is out, because it's apparently a "cheap" technique, or because they don't have to learn it to adapt to a higher level of play.

 

[Aiko]

Well unfortunately seeing how this game doesn't take much skill at all to be good, and the only real techs right now aren't too useful, everyone is going to be near the same level... The pros are going to have a bad time sticking out, I can just see big tornaments being won by random ppl once ppl start getting intensely into it. Don't forget mindgames, the only real character for mindgames is squirtle since his hydroplaning and shellshifting.

But it is a fact melee is alot more for serious people, brawl is just to help the smash-declined community get a boost of self-esteem.

You are completely wrong.

For starters what do you consider as skill? Being able to get every l-cancel, wavedash, adv tech etc? I wouldn't call that skill, since to be skillful in melee, it is a prerequisite. Just because there aren't many techs in Brawl doesn't mean the game is less skillful, its merely requires skill in other areas. And its clearly obvious you haven't played brawl on a competitive level yet as you say the techs aren't useful.

Pros at melee are more than likely going to be very good at brawl. The reasons being, they already have the dedication, mindset and talent required. Thats right, its not all natural talent, most of it is hard work. Most importantly though, the ability to read the opponent, predict their moves and to work out their habits (collectively termed mindgames) is part of all pros and this is the crux of the matter: Melee is the same as brawl, except it has a technical barrier to it. All the mindgames in melee will be present in brawl, except that in brawl, its easier to get to that level. In fact if anything, brawl will be more skillful, as to be clear cut better than the rest, you're going to have to be much smarter, since tech skill will not carry you all the way. If you think skill is all down to technical ability, you're wrong since you could in theory train a monkey to be technically good since its all a matter of button timing.

 

[DeuceBlade]

Brawl definitely is less competitive, but still a good game.

 

[DRaGZ]

By far, it is less competitive. But it's still quite competitive. The fact that I can consistently win against some players and some players can consistently win against me is proof of existing skill levels. As long as that is rankable, there is competition.

 

[Umby]

I hope people aren't confusing the word "Competitive" with the words "Faster" and "Technical".

 

[GreatClayMonkey]

Because they can't accept that brawl is not melee 2.0

 

[Lecto2007]

Because they can't accept that brawl is not melee 2.0

Thats true, they can't accept the simplicity of the game that a nobb can play first time and win against them pisses them off.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

In Melee, you could control the direction that you'll go during a midair dodge. Not this time though. You'll fall even during a midair dodge, but you can still attack afterwards.

 

[WastingPenguins]

Brawl definitely is less competitive, but still a good game.

Yes. This is the correct answer. "Less competitive than Melee" isn't exactly harsh criticism, considering how many of us consider Melee pretty much the pinnacle of deep, competitive gameplay. Exhibit A, stolen from that other thread: The breathtaking competitive depth of Melee.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=_dFeX2z0SLA

It doesn't mean that Brawl is bad game (I love it). It certainly doesn't mean that Brawl is a non-competitive game. It simply means that Melee ultimately offered a deeper gameplay experience than Brawl seems likely to. The deeper the game, the higher the skill ladder, and the more competitive a game can be because people can just keep getting better.

Bottom line: of course it's less competitive than Melee. Basically everything is.

 

[Aiko]

I don't think that is the correct answer. I think its more along the lines of Brawl is less indepth than melee, at the moment.

There is always the possibilty that some tech discovered later will make the game just as competitive if not more. Yes there is a possibility that there is nothing left to discover, but only time will tell. Competitive-ness is dependant on the number of competing players, by which melee is more atm since there are more melee players than brawl players. However, give this a year and if there are more competitive brawl players than melee players, brawl will be by definition, more competitive.

 

[DRaGZ]

Yes. This is the correct answer. "Less competitive than Melee" isn't exactly harsh criticism, considering how many of us consider Melee pretty much the pinnacle of deep, competitive gameplay. Exhibit A, stolen from that other thread: The breathtaking competitive depth of Melee.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=_dFeX2z0SLA

It doesn't mean that Brawl is bad game (I love it). It certainly doesn't mean that Brawl is a non-competitive game. It simply means that Melee ultimately offered a deeper gameplay experience than Brawl seems likely to. The deeper the game, the higher the skill ladder, and the more competitive a game can be because people can just keep getting better.

Bottom line: of course it's less competitive than Melee. Basically everything is.

I agree. Now...can we just stop here? I'd like to one day log onto the Brawl forums and finally not see repetitive Brawl hate and maybe something interesting for once.

 

[Spyda]

I don't think that is the correct answer. I think its more along the lines of Brawl is less indepth than melee, at the moment.

There is always the possibilty that some tech discovered later will make the game just as competitive if not more. Yes there is a possibility that there is nothing left to discover, but only time will tell. Competitive-ness is dependant on the number of competing players, by which melee is more atm since there are more melee players than brawl players. However, give this a year and if there are more competitive brawl players than melee players, brawl will be by definition, more competitive.

EXACTLY! we need MORE time to find out everything about this game. We didn't WD until 2 years into Melee and already people are writing this game off. People expect it to be a simple ADDON to Melee and just continue where we left off. Where is the fun in that?

We must learn new strategies and adapt to the situation at hand. That is why Brawl is still competitive as of now and will be in the future.

 

[blizzard138]

I am Blizzard138 and I approve of this message.

I think people just are whiny little girls... Waaa no more l cancelling or wavedashing... Having tech doesnt make the game more competitive the players do. You can't base competitiveness off of a glitch. Also, if the Wi-Fi didn't suck then Brawl would be more competitive than melee hands down.

 

[Spyda]

I think people just are whiny little girls... Waaa no more l cancelling or wavedashing... Having tech doesnt make the game more competitive the players do. You can't base competitiveness off of a glitch. Also, if the Wi-Fi didn't suck then Brawl would be more competitive than melee hands down.

Hopefully, Wifi can be fixed and we won't be experiencing such horrid lag anymore. How, I have no idea.

 

[BlackYoshi7]

This happens every time a sequel comes out in a game with a tournament scene. Counter Strike Source, Team Fortress 2 both still have complaints from people who complain the game is "noobed" down because they can't conc jump or some idiocy. Brawl is going to be the more popular game and will probably have more money at it's events, and the pro players will go to where the money is, no matter what they think of the game. I'm sure in a year this will barely be an issue except with a few loud hold outs.

 

[tehmpest]

It's almost impossible for a game to be "less competitive" than another. A game is competitive as long as you have people facing each other who want to win. Freakin Mario Party can be competitive. Sure, there are no advance techniques or anything, but if people are playing to win, they're competing.

If you mean slower/faster, or more/less advanced, then it would make sense.

 

[SuperLink9]

Brawl is awesome, but it's been a bit evened out. I think it's easier for less experienced played to beat vets. I don't know how this is possible, but it is somehow. Either that, or playing Brawl after Melee doesn't carry your skill along from Melee, and just resets it at a generally quite high skill level.

I still need to get used to Brawl.

 

[Spyda]

It's almost impossible for a game to be "less competitive" than another. A game is competitive as long as you have people facing each other who want to win. Freakin Mario Party can be competitive. Sure, there are no advance techniques or anything, but if people are playing to win, they're competing.

If you mean slower/faster, or more/less advanced, then it would make sense.

Exactly, people think just because it is slower/floatier and we do not have our l canceling or WDing, it is considered less competitive. Why? Because it allows newbies to compete with us? Sorry if the competition is harsh on you guys now without your adv. techs. Learn to think on your toes and react. Not simply out teching your opponent.

Competition is when two people play and someone wants to win. This game or Melee is not less or more in either category.

 

[Dogysamich]

Because it allows newbies to compete with us? Sorry if the competition is harsh on you guys now without your adv. techs. Learn to think on your toes and react. Not simply out teching your opponent.
.

So if that's the case, help me start a competitive scene in Pocket Fighter.

I've been secretly trying to do it for years.

I'm not kidding, btw.

 

[Pink Reaper]

Exactly, people think just because it is slower/floatier and we do not have our l canceling or WDing, it is considered less competitive. Why? Because it allows newbies to compete with us? Sorry if the competition is harsh on you guys now without your adv. techs. Learn to think on your toes and react. Not simply out teching your opponent.

Competition is when two people play and someone wants to win. This game or Melee is not less or more in either category.

So you down for competitive pong?

 

[Flaminglink]

ummm if more ppl can play against competitive players that means its more competative IDOITS thats because theres more competition. -_- if you deny this you are wack.

 

[Yuna]

You're a good friend of GimpyFish's and you still fail to see that a technique is just a tool for mindgaming? That simply out-teching someone has never won anyone a match if they can't outsmart their opponents? My Peach isn't at all techy but I beat tech-oriented players and characters all the time.

Because it all still boils down to mindgames. And advanced techs or lesser advanced techs or not, the game is limited. Look me up online if you want to play. I'll abuse the shield game, Marth and Toon Link and anything else the game's introduced that drastically changes the game to the worse. And I'll also show you that even without ATs, good people with good mindgames will still win.

It's not about the lack of ATs or how easy it is to play the game, it's about the lack of options on a deeper level of play.

 

[Sir Roy]

People are going to get thier panties in a bunch whenever something different comes out and you can't play things the way you want.

I honestly think this is is a tad bit redundant in saying this, but saying that this game is less competitive than Melee at this point is like saying tomorrow's sunset will be yellow instead of orange. You just can't tell that yet. The fact that the end game that is Melee didn't really develop until about the last three years of it's scene, should be proof enough that this game simply needs nerds to poke at it long enough to find some other random thing you can do to help the game.

It's been out for about a week here and a month here. Europe doesn't even HAVE it yet. No advanced techs in any competitive fighting game have been figured out in a week. Or a month for that matter. People are wanting the instant gratification. And like most things in life, that's not always going to happen. Simple as that guys.

Just enjoy the game at the level you can play it at right now and please, please stop the complaining. If it truly bothers you that much..just don't play it.

 

[timbers92]

People are going to get thier panties in a bunch whenever something different comes out and you can't play things the way you want.

I honestly think this is is a tad bit redundant in saying this, but saying that this game is less competitive than Melee at this point is like saying tomorrow's sunset will be yellow instead of orange. You just can't tell that yet. The fact that the end game that is Melee didn't really develop until about the last three years of it's scene, should be proof enough that this game simply needs nerds to poke at it long enough to find some other random thing you can do to help the game.

It's been out for about a week here and a month here. Europe doesn't even HAVE it yet. No advanced techs in any competitive fighting game have been figured out in a week. Or a month for that matter. People are wanting the instant gratification. And like most things in life, that's not always going to happen. Simple as that guys.

Just enjoy the game at the level you can play it at right now and please, please stop the complaining. If it truly bothers you that much..just don't play it.

It is redundant like you said, but very true. If you've ever seen tournaments of melee videos from when the game first came out, you'll see that it's just as basic as when Brawl came out just a week ago.

 

[Spyda]

You're a good friend of GimpyFish's and you still fail to see that a technique is just a tool for mindgaming? That simply out-teching someone has never won anyone a match if they can't outsmart their opponents? My Peach isn't at all techy but I beat tech-oriented players and characters all the time.

Because it all still boils down to mindgames. And advanced techs or lesser advanced techs or not, the game is limited. Look me up online if you want to play. I'll abuse the shield game, Marth and Toon Link and anything else the game's introduced that drastically changes the game to the worse. And I'll also show you that even without ATs, good people with good mindgames will still win.

It's not about the lack of ATs or how easy it is to play the game, it's about the lack of options on a deeper level of play.

See that is where you misunderstood me. I never said Adv techs were just a tool for mindgames. I simply stated that we can STILL mindgame without adv techs. I have seen plenty of nontechnical people work tech kings. While it can go both ways as well, I never once stated that you can simply just sit there and tech all day and win. You need to understand my argument better, or perhaps I am just being misleading in my posts because it was late and I am trying to answer everyones post at the same time, but I am sure your peach nonflashy or not could probably beat me techy falco. If i just run up to you and try to wd back and wd in shine and back air, wouldn't I get predictable?

So please, if I made any wrong statements about teching simply making the other person better, forgive me.

 

[G_mellowzz]

In you're opinion, Brawl is more competitive then melee?? Alright then, lets be reasonable. Brawl is in no way more competitive than melee. Your argument is that if you out predict your opponent and adapt to you're opponent's play style brawl is more competitive, and thus why the pros are still better and the newer players worse. However, adapting, mindgames, and prediction were all things that existed in melee, but melee also had technical moves such as wd, shffl, etc. What im saying is that in NO way is brawl not a competitive game, but really its only been out for what, 2 weeks? In reality its impossible to really compare the 2 in this moment for brawl is still a growing game, only time will tell when brawl really gets its metagame. But for now, melee is just a faster, more technical, and more competitive game then brawl.

 

[Commodity]

People who were good at Melee will still be, in general, better than the average person in Brawl

Not really that hard to figure out.


People will probably eventually moved to Brawl since the characters are more balanced out, rather than stick to Melee and have FAWKZ ONLY

Plus computers are harder, so if you lack friends, you can practice better than you can in Melee.

 

[Skazryk]

The only reason peopel are having a hard time separating themselves from noobs is because they are still trying to play it like it was melee. its the same in all of the videos ive see, so far no one person i have seen play is any good on the vids.

 

[saberhof]

Why do people think Brawl is "less" competitive than Melee?....


Because they cant move their fingers slower....

 

[Firesoul1]

Brawl is being read by its cover. You can't just play it for 5 mins and hope for something special.
It takes adaptation and to welcome the game with an open mind. Who knows, maybe the glitches that are yet to be found may be superior to melee's. Then you ask "well the glitches are not as good this time around", well if you call yourself a gamer then you wouldn't be complaining so just accept it as it is. Think you can make a better game? well be my guest.
1. Go to college and learn to make video games.
2. Get hired ( or start your own business ).
3. Let your ideas run wild.
4. Publish your glitch-infested game and see where that gets you.

 

[Jazriel]

A challenge for an intelligent post? I shall attempt my best.

While it may be obvious, common sense isn't very common, and thus I give the only actual answer:

It's too soon to make judgement calls about Brawl. Plain and simple. Understanding the metagame, what metagame? It's as simple as that. There's a reason why one beta tests a game, theorycraft can't handle everything when it's faced with a new situation.

If Brawl stays as it is, then I will trust the words of my betters and agree with the idea that it's less competitive than melee. As is, I'm hoping things will be discovered in the years to come that will evolve the gameplay to something as deep as melee.


If you want my opinion, I think Brawl is more competitive merely because all the chars are more balanced (as far as I know). I love the fact that I can beat Falco's with my Bowser. I love the fact that I'm not afraid to use Ninjachu against a Marth or a Fox. While I may not win tourneys, that fact makes Brawl >>> Melee.

 

[Spyda]

A challenge for an intelligent post? I shall attempt my best.

While it may be obvious, common sense isn't very common, and thus I give the only actual answer:

It's too soon to make judgement calls about Brawl. Plain and simple. Understanding the metagame, what metagame? It's as simple as that. There's a reason why one beta tests a game, theorycraft can't handle everything when it's faced with a new situation.

If Brawl stays as it is, then I will trust the words of my betters and agree with the idea that it's less competitive than melee. As is, I'm hoping things will be discovered in the years to come that will evolve the gameplay to something as deep as melee.


If you want my opinion, I think Brawl is more competitive merely because all the chars are more balanced (as far as I know). I love the fact that I can beat Falco's with my Bowser. I love the fact that I'm not afraid to use Ninjachu against a Marth or a Fox. While I may not win tourneys, that fact makes Brawl >>> Melee.

To be honest, I quite enjoy being able to use other characters during smashfests and mini tournies because during the Melee days, I'd have to use Marth, Sheik, or Peach if I wanted to stand a chance, but now, since no one has defined a clear metagame or tier list, we can truly enjoy the game and use whomever and whenever! (except for metaknight... he is so friggin hard to beat =[ )