Why do people always say that Yoshi is bottom tier?

[Ares_Omega]

Whenever someone makes a tier list, Yoshi is always at the bottom.

I don't really mind that much because then you can brag about beating a person with bottom tier, but where do you think he actually belongs?

I would say mid.

 

[bigman40]

He's mid of mid tier to mid of low tier.

Most people don't give a good reason for him to be in bottom tier. They only look at tourney results, but tier lists are supposed to be character potential, matchups, and tournament rankings. While I agree that Yoshi's tournament rankings hold him back to getting where he needs to be, he should be at least placed in low tier for what he can do.

I actually stopped caring about where they are placing Yoshi. As a matter of fact, I changed one of my taunts to "meh lik bottom tier" just to have fun about the mistake they constantly make about Yoshi.

 

[E.G.G.M.A.N.]

In short:

- Yoshi can't jump out of his shield. Or do anything except roll/dodge/grab. That means no ariels out of the shield, and no upsmashing. This makes Yoshi extremely predictable when he's forced to block. Yoshi's grab is slow and easy to see coming so he can often be trapped in his shield and forced to roll around trying to shake off his opponent, usually ending with the opponent punishing you.

- Yoshi is very lacking in killing power. Only his F-smash and up-air have any real killing power, and they are not the easiest things to set up.

Those are the main low points. See this thread for more information : http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=171451

 

[Eddosan]

In short:

- Yoshi can't jump out of his shield. Or do anything except roll/dodge/grab. That means no ariels out of the shield, and no upsmashing. This makes Yoshi extremely predictable when he's forced to block. Yoshi's grab is slow and easy to see coming so he can often be trapped in his shield and forced to roll around trying to shake off his opponent, usually ending with the opponent punishing you.

Don't block.

- Yoshi is very lacking in killing power. Only his F-smash and up-air have any real killing power, and they are not the easiest things to set up.

Launching Yoshi Bomb is also a kill move at about 110-120% for most characters. Nair doesn't kill until like 150%, but it sets up for nice gimping at mid %'s. U-smash kills around 120 when fresh. D-tilt and D-smash also set up for gimping.

Yoshi can also chain-grab several characters, most importantly Meta-Knight.

Umm, yeah. We don't need anymore threads about Yoshi sucking. But this is Smashboards, so it can't be helped. XD

 

[pidgey14]

I agree, Eddosan. I am getting fed up with these "Yoshi is bottom tier. he sucks." threads. Go annoy a different character board for a change.

 

[The Real Inferno]

I'm not much of a Yoshi player but one of my friends mains him at tournaments and does quite well since he's so underused, most people never even practice against a good yoshi.

Really though, Yoshi's priority doesn't help him much either, along with a slow running speed. DownB can be outprioritised and puncished by hordes of Upsmashes, Forward B gets ***** by several moves, notably: Falco's Shine and ROB's gyro off the top of my head, Up B is difficult to pin point and extremely easy to punish for any smaller character for example: Olimar.

These things can be overcome, but the real obvious fact is Yoshi has terrible matchups againt almost every popular character. This is naturally going to lead him to being on the bottom tier on anyones tier list, since just like in Melee, people were always judging characters based on how they stacked up against Fox, Falco, Marth and Shiek.

 

[Gindler]

I'm not much of a Yoshi player but one of my friends mains him at tournaments and does quite well since he's so underused, most people never even practice against a good yoshi.

Really though, Yoshi's priority doesn't help him much either, along with a slow running speed. DownB can be outprioritised and puncished by hordes of Upsmashes, Forward B gets ***** by several moves, notably: Falco's Shine and ROB's gyro off the top of my head, Up B is difficult to pin point and extremely easy to punish for any smaller character for example: Olimar.

These things can be overcome, but the real obvious fact is Yoshi has terrible matchups againt almost every popular character. This is naturally going to lead him to being on the bottom tier on anyones tier list, since just like in Melee, people were always judging characters based on how they stacked up against Fox, Falco, Marth and Shiek.

Yoshi has good priority on his tilts and jabs, he's among the faster running characters in the cast (faster than Tlink). You don't DownB into and Usmash, if you hit them on the ground they're knocked into the good hit and if they dodge the first hit the second hit will get them when the spotdodge is over. Forward B gets ***** by almost no moves, maybe just falco's lasers and shine but it cancels out F. punches and alot of other powerful attacks, and yeah the gyro too (at full speed which is almost always with the new smash roll or w/e it's called), you don't use UpB at close range and you shouldn't be punished too much. But yeah the melee yoshi effects what people see in the brawl yoshi, otherwise I think you don't really know much about yoshi.

But the main reason yoshi is on the bottom of tier lists is simple, the shield. Which if you spotdodge you don't even have to use so yeah.

 

[E.G.G.M.A.N.]

Don't block.



Launching Yoshi Bomb is also a kill move at about 110-120% for most characters. Nair doesn't kill until like 150%, but it sets up for nice gimping at mid %'s. U-smash kills around 120 when fresh. D-tilt and D-smash also set up for gimping.

Yoshi can also chain-grab several characters, most importantly Meta-Knight.

Umm, yeah. We don't need anymore threads about Yoshi sucking. But this is Smashboards, so it can't be helped. XD

Yeah my point was that not being able to block = BAD. And again, Yoshi bomb is fairly predictable and can be often outprioritized by upsmashes, there's no way to really set up for it. And to all the people getting angry and stuff: there's a difference between hating on some character irrationally and BEING HONEST. Sticking your fingers in your ears and saying "I can't hear you" doesn't help anybody, least of all you. No I'm not insulting you or your character or whatever, it's just that Yoshi's abilities and techniques are currently not up to par with the majority of the cast, and possibly never will be, and if time proves me wrong, so be it, more power to you, but for now, JUST RELAX and don't let it bother you so much.

 

[Eddosan]

It's not that you can't block. It's that you can play Yoshi w/o blocking most of the time.

Grounded Yoshi Bomb is not predictable if you sweet-spot it right in front your opponent. It's Yoshi's fastest KO move on the ground.

 

[Nigerian Star Storm]

Whenever someone makes a tier list, Yoshi is always at the bottom.

I don't really mind that much because then you can brag about beating a person with bottom tier, but where do you think he actually belongs?

I would say mid.

NOTE:I'm actually going to try and say this by being as little of a **** as possible.

Because using actual Data which Tier lists are based on...... where else could we really put him?

His tournament results are bad, and in the summer rankings he hasn't even PLACED yet while characters even worse than him have (CF >_>). And before you bring in the "Well that's because no one uses him" argument, That's the fault of the Yoshi community. Perhaps they need to step their game up, come to tournaments and show us how good Yoshi really is instead of the boatload of the whining that goes on when he's placed at the bottom of a Tier list, or maybe Yoshi really is that bad.

The thing is, how can we honestly think he's good if you guys don't put out in the Metagame?

His Matchups are bad, and before you ask yes, I do say this from the Matchup chart COMBINED with my own personal research/insight and some from intellectual posters. Even if you changed all of his disputed even matchups to advantages, he'd still have worse matchups than a wide majority of the characters in the game. In terms of relaivity, in terms of just showing which characters have good and bad matchups, that chart is fairly accurate for the most part.

Now as for the potential part.....does that really even matter until it's actually applied in the tournament scene? Hell look at Toon Link, he was looking to be pretty dominant, but what happened? He's barely placing like, at all (Altough granted, this actually might be a case where the simply underused argument is viable, his Matchups are great for the most part) Sure, all of can debate and discuss a character's strengths and weaknesses here, but what truly matters is that what happens when it's actually applied in a tournament setting. Sure theorycrafting is nice and can be very productive, but it's all moot if experimental and factual evidence proves otherwise. Take the ICs and Diddy for example, many thought with the Infinte Grabs that the ICs would become broken and maybe even Top Tier, but when you actually look at tourney results, the truth is shown that it's far from that, because simply the best of players know to not get grabbed and the fact that they are relatively hard to learn drives away others, keeping them from being consistently used. Diddy with his hax Nanerz mindgames was thought to be a very capable and possibly Very High Tier canadate, but again look at tourney results as of now, this doesn't seem to be the case at all. Now look at a character like Ike, I personally hate him with a burning passion, and think he's way too laggy and predictable to be of any use, but the thing is he's still placing relatively well aside from that. Now i'm not denying that these characters aren't good or bad, and in fact they are actually starting to rise/drop in performance respectively, but we cannot rely our opinions on just theorycraft alone, we have to see how these things actually play out in a real life situation and make judgements from there.

Bottom Line: Tier Lists need to be based on the Present, not the future



For what it's worth, I don't think Yoshi will stay bottom tier, and hopefully will rise to at least low. As a character in terms of potential he isn't all that great, but certainly not amongst the likes of Link Captain Falcon and Jigglypuff. But the problem is, you Yoshi mainers need to show us what he can do, not just be a no show and give us no choice for his common placing.

 

[Gindler]

Yeah my point was that not being able to block = BAD. And again, Yoshi bomb is fairly predictable and can be often outprioritized by upsmashes, there's no way to really set up for it. And to all the people getting angry and stuff: there's a difference between hating on some character irrationally and BEING HONEST. Sticking your fingers in your ears and saying "I can't hear you" doesn't help anybody, least of all you. No I'm not insulting you or your character or whatever, it's just that Yoshi's abilities and techniques are currently not up to par with the majority of the cast, and possibly never will be, and if time proves me wrong, so be it, more power to you, but for now, JUST RELAX and don't let it bother you so much.

Oh, no the first part of yoshi's DownB launched me into the 2nd hit stunned and unable to do anything (including Usmash). No self respecting yoshi main will DownB a grounded opponent while he's in the air because yes that's just asking to be punished, I use it on aerial opponents that won't expect it, on the ground as a kill move, and a stall move to get me out of combos so I've never been hit out of it with an Usmash.

It's not that you can't block. It's that you can play Yoshi w/o blocking most of the time.

Grounded Yoshi Bomb is not predictable if you sweet-spot it right in front your opponent. It's Yoshi's fastest KO move on the ground.

True, I almost never shield unless it's to roll (except MKs tornado cause yoshi's the only character he can't shield stab =P). I either spot dodge and punish with a Fsmash (sometimes if I'm feeling lucky I'll just charge Fsmash for a lean dodge both sexy and deadly) or just keep the pressure on them with Bair and tilts and all that, yoshi is one of the few characters I use where I almost never have to shield.

NOTE:I'm actually going to try and say this by being as little of a **** as possible.

Because using actual Data which Tier lists are based on...... where else could we really put him?

His tournament results are bad, and in the summer rankings he hasn't even PLACED yet while characters even worse than him have (CF >_>). And before you bring in the "Well that's because no one uses him" argument, That's the fault of the Yoshi community. Perhaps they need to step their game up, come to tournaments and show us how good Yoshi really is instead of the boatload of the whining that goes on when he's placed at the bottom of a Tier list, or maybe Yoshi really is that bad.

The thing is, how can we honestly think he's good if you guys don't put out in the Metagame?

His Matchups are bad, and before you ask yes, I do say this from the Matchup chart COMBINED with my own personal research/insight and some from intellectual posters. Even if you changed all of his disputed even matchups to advantages, he'd still have worse matchups than a wide majority of the characters in the game. In terms of relaivity, in terms of just showing which characters have good and bad matchups, that chart is fairly accurate for the most part.

Now as for the potential part.....does that really even matter until it's actually applied in the tournament scene? Hell look at Toon Link, he was looking to be pretty dominant, but what happened? He's barely placing like, at all (Altough granted, this actually might be a case where the simply underused argument is viable, his Matchups are great for the most part) Sure, all of can debate and discuss a character's strengths and weaknesses here, but what truly matters is that what happens when it's actually applied in a tournament setting. Sure theorycrafting is nice and can be very productive, but it's all moot if experimental and factual evidence proves otherwise. Take the ICs and Diddy for example, many thought with the Infinte Grabs that the ICs would become broken and maybe even Top Tier, but when you actually look at tourney results, the truth is shown that it's far from that, because simply the best of players know to not get grabbed and the fact that they are relatively hard to learn drives away others, keeping them from being consistently used. Diddy with his hax Nanerz mindgames was thought to be a very capable and possibly Very High Tier canadate, but again look at tourney results as of now, this doesn't seem to be the case at all. Now look at a character like Ike, I personally hate him with a burning passion, and think he's way too laggy and predictable to be of any use, but the thing is he's still placing relatively well aside from that. Now i'm not denying that these characters aren't good or bad, and in fact they are actually starting to rise/drop in performance respectively, but we cannot rely our opinions on just theorycraft alone, we have to see how these things actually play out in a real life situation and make judgements from there.

Bottom Line: Tier Lists need to be based on the Present, not the future



For what it's worth, I don't think Yoshi will stay bottom tier, and hopefully will rise to at least low. As a character in terms of potential he isn't all that great, but certainly not amongst the likes of Link Captain Falcon and Jigglypuff. But the problem is, you Yoshi mainers need to show us what he can do, not just be a no show and give us no choice for his common placing.

Win.

 

[Shiri]

Doot dee doo~

 

[brentlouis]

people dont realize that he has a great airgame and his fair spikes, his second jump has invincibility frames, a lot of people do not know he is a heavy weight, he is undervalued because not a lot of peopletake the time to learn him and see the things that he can do

 

[CluelessBTD]

He's an Olimar counter. Yoshi's aerials destroy pikman, especially the Uair. I once did one Uair and killed every one of his pikman. Yoshi wins, the end!

 

[Chaco]

I give everyone problems with Yoshi, I force them into mistakes. An aggressive is so annoying to play.

And also, dash attack, dask attack, and fair. Kills every time at over 70%, unless they have an amazing recovery.

 

[E.G.G.M.A.N.]

It's not that you can't block. It's that you can play Yoshi w/o blocking most of the time.

Grounded Yoshi Bomb is not predictable if you sweet-spot it right in front your opponent. It's Yoshi's fastest KO move on the ground.

You can play a lot of characters without blocking most of the time, if you really wanted to. But it's a disadvantage, not an advantage. You miss out on opportunities for free grabs/ariels/etc. (Yoshi's grab is quite slow and punishable) that the other characters enjoy. After a awhile all those missed opportunities start to add up. And the Yoshi bomb will only work if you are VERY close to your opponent, you won't find it so easy to get one in against someone who spaces well. It won't even hit Olimar, Kirby, Fox, Falco, Meta Knight, Pikachu, and Game and Watch (they can just dodge the second hit), and it won't kill the heavyweights even at 120%.

 

[Deleted member]

And also, dash attack, dask attack, and fair. Kills every time at over 70%, unless they have an amazing recovery.

Doesnt work unless ur opponent sucks. If u mean as a "combo"

Wtf is with the hate on yoshis shield. Most people dont even jump out of shield anyways, and shield dropping is so pro now so its not much of a disadvantage.

 

[Gindler]

You can play a lot of characters without blocking most of the time, if you really wanted to. But it's a disadvantage, not an advantage. You miss out on opportunities for free grabs/ariels/etc. (Yoshi's grab is quite slow and punishable) that the other characters enjoy. After a awhile all those missed opportunities start to add up. And the Yoshi bomb will only work if you are VERY close to your opponent, you won't find it so easy to get one in against someone who spaces well. It won't even hit Olimar, Kirby, Fox, Falco, Meta Knight, Pikachu, and Game and Watch (they can just dodge the second hit), and it won't kill the heavyweights even at 120%.

I don't miss shield grabbing since I can pivot grab (probably my favorite grab in the game). Oh and with the DownB I've killed Olimars, Kirbys, Foxes, Falcos, Metaknights, Pikachu, and G&Ws with it. All you have to do is sidestep a dash grab, dash attack, of hyphen Usmash and they'll be right on top of you just asking to get yoshi bombed I have yet to see a G&W dodge he second hit. I don't think you've seen a yoshi player even use the yoshi bomb well. That doesn't mean it isn't a good move, heck I love the egg lay but no one really uses it that doesn't make it a bad move though.

 

[Eddosan]

La Dee Da~

 

[E.G.G.M.A.N.]

I don't miss shield grabbing since I can pivot grab (probably my favorite grab in the game). Oh and with the DownB I've killed Olimars, Kirbys, Foxes, Falcos, Metaknights, Pikachu, and G&Ws with it. All you have to do is sidestep a dash grab, dash attack, of hyphen Usmash and they'll be right on top of you just asking to get yoshi bombed I have yet to see a G&W dodge he second hit.

(? )You can't pivot grab out of the shield. Anyway I've tried the Yoshi Bomb with everyone. Those seven can air dodge it every time. If you don't have anyone to test it with you can just go to training mode, set the CPU to level 9, and try it on them. They'll always dodge it.

I don't think you've seen a yoshi player even use the yoshi bomb well. That doesn't mean it isn't a good move, heck I love the egg lay but no one really uses it that doesn't make it a bad move though.

I have used it myself when I play Yoshi. Against someone with good priority and spacing, you can't depend on it that much.

Doesnt work unless ur opponent sucks. If u mean as a "combo"

Wtf is with the hate on yoshis shield. Most people dont even jump out of shield anyways, and shield dropping is so pro now so its not much of a disadvantage.

Jumping out of the shield can get you some some free hits you'd have to give up otherwise. With perfect shielding it can get you that kill you need or get a determined opponent off your back. Don't undervalue it.

 

[Deleted member]

pivot grab oos=shield drop then quick pivot grab. Also u dont need to shield most stuff u can just pivot grab. Yea jump oos is very useful(i do play other characters as well as yoshi), but its not as missed in brawl due to better shield drop.

 

[Kiwikomix]

Doesnt work unless ur opponent sucks. If u mean as a "combo"

Wtf is with the hate on yoshis shield. Most people dont even jump out of shield anyways, and shield dropping is so pro now so its not much of a disadvantage.

Exactly! This pisses me off all the time... people are like "oh hay guise Yoshi can't jump out of his shield so I refuse to play him." Come on, it doesn't matter. Really, the laggy roll gets to me a lot more than the no jumping issue.

 

[Gindler]

(? )You can't pivot grab out of the shield. Anyway I've tried the Yoshi Bomb with everyone. Those seven can air dodge it every time. If you don't have anyone to test it with you can just go to training mode, set the CPU to level 9, and try it on them. They'll always dodge it.



I have used it myself when I play Yoshi. Against someone with good priority and spacing, you can't depend on it that much.



Jumping out of the shield can get you some some free hits you'd have to give up otherwise. With perfect shielding it can get you that kill you need or get a determined opponent off your back. Don't undervalue it.

I've had computers do it but not people (i prefer playing people to computers). Some people might not know this but comps are pretty ridiculous with timing of airdodge cause they can do it the exact frame they're able to react (people have a harder time reacting by the frame) and their perfect shielding is ridiculous (like 90% of the time they'll perfect shield). Other than shielding, dodging and footstooling (rarely footstooled by a person but comps do it semi often)

Exactly! This pisses me off all the time... people are like "oh hay guise Yoshi can't jump out of his shield so I refuse to play him." Come on, it doesn't matter. Really, the laggy roll gets to me a lot more than the no jumping issue.

Ha, yeah no kidding. When i play ness I never jump out of shield. But I do hate how when i roll and i coulda taken a whole step and went that far, the distance is very subpar and I won't argue that.

 

[Yoshi1000]

(? )You can't pivot grab out of the shield. Anyway I've tried the Yoshi Bomb with everyone. Those seven can air dodge it every time. If you don't have anyone to test it with you can just go to training mode, set the CPU to level 9, and try it on them. They'll always dodge it.



I have used it myself when I play Yoshi. Against someone with good priority and spacing, you can't depend on it that much.



Jumping out of the shield can get you some some free hits you'd have to give up otherwise. With perfect shielding it can get you that kill you need or get a determined opponent off your back. Don't undervalue it.

I hate the level 9 computers. Seriously when i play free for all the level 9 go after me only. I think the game hates Yoshi.

 

[Nigerian Star Storm]

I hate the level 9 computers. Seriously when i play free for all the level 9 go after me only. I think the game hates Yoshi.

lolno, it does that for EVERYONE, not just Yoshi >_>.

 

[E.G.G.M.A.N.]

Exactly! This pisses me off all the time... people are like "oh hay guise Yoshi can't jump out of his shield so I refuse to play him." Come on, it doesn't matter. Really, the laggy roll gets to me a lot more than the no jumping issue.

You wouldn't have to use that laggy roll so much if you could jump would you? It obviously DOES matter since it is preventing him from being a top competitor (among other things). Unless you think the main problem lies elsewhere?

 

[Scala]

I think yoshi was given mediocre priority on purpose, he has a lot of exploitable things (super armor frames and an insane horizontal air speed) that make up for his deficiencies. The main thing is that he has a bad stigma from melee and nobody has really given him a chance since then.

I've been playing him a lot around here in michigan and I've been finding a LOT of players who are changing their mind about the quality of yoshi. He's just underused and doesn't have the userbase to develop his game as fast as a lot of the top tier characters. I think he's on par with a lot of the mid tier characters.

 

[Meta Dude]

no doubt, it would be sweet if yoshi could shield grab and do all the nice tricks out of his shield. that would definitely make him a better character, but i think the whole shield argument is overstated. even against good players, i have little trouble coming out of shield and pivot grabbing or jabbing; rarely do i have enough time to not be able to mount a defense of sorts coming out of shield.

the real problem is that the top tier characters just have more overpowered movesets. wolf, g&w, snake, and mk (to name a few), characters like those, they just have better moves, plain and simple. either they're faster or they have more priority, or both. most of these characters have moves they can spam to some extent, and some even have bonuses, such as mk's shield stabbing.

let's face it, compared to some other characters in this game, yoshi didn't get lots of love : (

 

[Yoshi1000]

Yoshi should be in the lower tier. at least not the bottom tier and he beats Mario in range and his attack power seems a little higher then Mario.

 

[Gindler]

Is there anything yoshi can do while in his shield? I know bowser can do his UpB, so can yoshi? Just trying to find somethings around his "biggest weakness"

 

[Yoshi1000]

lolno, it does that for EVERYONE, not just Yoshi >_>.

I know the computers target everyone. i just don't like it. It should be free for all. not three on one.

 

[E.G.G.M.A.N.]

Is there anything yoshi can do while in his shield? I know bowser can do his UpB, so can yoshi? Just trying to find somethings around his "biggest weakness"

Nope. He can only roll, spot dodge, and grab. Only people with the "bubble" type shield (everyone besides Yoshi) can jump/up-b etc. I have no idea why though.

 

[Eddosan]

You can *gasp* let go of Yoshi's shield. Even though it's not very useful, you can still punish laggy stuff like DDD's high jump by just doing normals out of shield. It's hard to do it with Dsmash and D-tilt, though, because as long as you can see his broken egg shell, pressing DOWN always leads into Dodge.

Seriously. Those egg shells should like, do damage, or maybe poke your opponent's eye out.

 

[Meme]

People see Yoshi as bottom tier because he is kind of underused, and lack of enough representation, I think he should be higher, I've played two Yoshis so far... One manages to give me troubles (and the other... eh~ needs to know more his character...).

Still Yoshi, like most of the Smash games has a different learning curve due to the different options avaible for Damage racking setups, to finishing moves.

As for lacking certain things (Jump out of shield, etc), there are always workarounds to it.

d<_< b...

 

[Yataku]

Yeah you would think he would have the best sheid or something D= It should do damage (Lol at the chara holding their eyes)

Yoshi kicks butt. At least then my one friend uses him.

 

[Nigerian Star Storm]

People see Yoshi as bottom tier because he is kind of underused, and lack of enough representation, I think he should be higher, I've played two Yoshis so far... One manages to give me troubles (and the other... eh~ needs to know more his character...).

Still Yoshi, like most of the Smash games has a different learning curve due to the different options avaible for Damage racking setups, to finishing moves.

As for lacking certain things (Jump out of shield, etc), there are always workarounds to it.

d<_< b...

I think I need to reiterate something.




EVERYONE WHO WANTS TO SEE AN EXPLANATION TO THE TC'S QUESTION, LOOK AT MY PREVIOUS POSTS

 

[Deleted member]

NOTE:I'm actually going to try and say this by being as little of a **** as possible.

Because using actual Data which Tier lists are based on...... where else could we really put him?

His tournament results are bad, and in the summer rankings he hasn't even PLACED yet while characters even worse than him have (CF >_>). And before you bring in the "Well that's because no one uses him" argument, That's the fault of the Yoshi community. Perhaps they need to step their game up, come to tournaments and show us how good Yoshi really is instead of the boatload of the whining that goes on when he's placed at the bottom of a Tier list, or maybe Yoshi really is that bad.

The thing is, how can we honestly think he's good if you guys don't put out in the Metagame?

His Matchups are bad, and before you ask yes, I do say this from the Matchup chart COMBINED with my own personal research/insight and some from intellectual posters. Even if you changed all of his disputed even matchups to advantages, he'd still have worse matchups than a wide majority of the characters in the game. In terms of relaivity, in terms of just showing which characters have good and bad matchups, that chart is fairly accurate for the most part.

Now as for the potential part.....does that really even matter until it's actually applied in the tournament scene? Hell look at Toon Link, he was looking to be pretty dominant, but what happened? He's barely placing like, at all (Altough granted, this actually might be a case where the simply underused argument is viable, his Matchups are great for the most part) Sure, all of can debate and discuss a character's strengths and weaknesses here, but what truly matters is that what happens when it's actually applied in a tournament setting. Sure theorycrafting is nice and can be very productive, but it's all moot if experimental and factual evidence proves otherwise. Take the ICs and Diddy for example, many thought with the Infinte Grabs that the ICs would become broken and maybe even Top Tier, but when you actually look at tourney results, the truth is shown that it's far from that, because simply the best of players know to not get grabbed and the fact that they are relatively hard to learn drives away others, keeping them from being consistently used. Diddy with his hax Nanerz mindgames was thought to be a very capable and possibly Very High Tier canadate, but again look at tourney results as of now, this doesn't seem to be the case at all. Now look at a character like Ike, I personally hate him with a burning passion, and think he's way too laggy and predictable to be of any use, but the thing is he's still placing relatively well aside from that. Now i'm not denying that these characters aren't good or bad, and in fact they are actually starting to rise/drop in performance respectively, but we cannot rely our opinions on just theorycraft alone, we have to see how these things actually play out in a real life situation and make judgements from there.

Bottom Line: Tier Lists need to be based on the Present, not the future



For what it's worth, I don't think Yoshi will stay bottom tier, and hopefully will rise to at least low. As a character in terms of potential he isn't all that great, but certainly not amongst the likes of Link Captain Falcon and Jigglypuff. But the problem is, you Yoshi mainers need to show us what he can do, not just be a no show and give us no choice for his common placing.

Just quoting for lazy people lol. Also, matchup chart is completely incorrect as far as yoshi, and also, jiggs is better than yoshi.

 

[Mac Matrix]

I actually stopped caring about where they are placing Yoshi. As a matter of fact, I changed one of my taunts to "meh lik bottom tier" just to have fun about the mistake they constantly make about Yoshi.

-thumbsup-

I don't understand why Yoshi is placed so low in the tiers. To be honest I'm just sick of all the Fox/Falco/Sheik players gimping everyone else who attempts to be original and creative in the game by choosing and getting good with a lesser-used character.

I've always been a Yoshi main and I've always been good for a Yoshi player. Whether it be my playing style or just that I've mained him for almost 10 years now, he's the only character I can understand and the only character I can use at great potential.

I don't care what the tier lists say. Any character in the hands of a master can match up against the best of anyone (Take Kirby in Melee as an example, I've seen some amazing players using him, the same with Ness.)

Everyone's entitled to their opinion and respect is all I have for a good opinion, but Yoshi isn't as bad as everyone makes out and people know it. =)

(Yoshi for the win)

 

[Depster]

If you dsmash when you come out of your shield there is no lag. Yes, one of the best utility moves can be used out of yoshi's shield

 

[pidgey14]

I really respect your opinion, Nigerian Star Storm. But there are few things I wanna say.

Yes, it is our fault for not entering the tourneys but there are reasons for that. One of them can be the fact that there has never been a single tourney in our area. Plus some of us can be really busy at these times so we couldn't enter.

I have never heard of a single tourney happened EVER in Scotland, not once (except from that Gamestation one. Like that did any good) so how am I able to help Yoshi out if there aren't gonna be any tourneys in my area?

Also the fact that barely anyone uses Yoshi is also another reason. What are the odds of a Yoshi beating a lot of snakes and meta knights? very little. Very few, who don't main Yoshi, have given the poor guy a proper chance.

So it ain't just the Yoshi community's fault, it is everyone's fault. We need more Yoshis.