Why A Tier List Is Not For Brawl!!

[Fletch]

I have 5 great characters and I am the best 1V1 player ever!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
They call me the 1v1 Master and the yoshi and you are gay masterembarrass

Are you drunk?

 

[Christova]

Are you drunk?

Beat me to it.

I think that Falcon and Sonic are pretty terrible, but the game is still young enough that it's possible that something awesome about them will be found.

But I doubt it. Ganondorf is my best alt, but a tier list doesn't dictate "X Character will always win over Y character". That's the problem most people have with tier lists: they don't understand how they are meant to be used.

 

[Xepa]

Anyone who says Sonic is terrible has NOT
been to a Sonic Board lately. Take a look
at these videos and eat your heart out at
the potential of Sonic.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=89dwzbj7ius
Lucky vs. Wario

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fXsENGJ0Tqg
Orochi ANIHILATES not 1, but TWO level 9 CPUs

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rro24w74ilw
Orochi *****..and i mean...***** a level 9 CPU


Also, take into account at the technical
advantages of the character; it's ridiculous
how much he can abuse glitches.

And NO, i am NOT a Sonic Player. I am a Pit
and Pokemon Trainer player. So I'm being
very fair and objective here when I say
that Sonic will be a high tier once all of his
advanced techniques are fully exploited,
and you guys can hide and pretend like you
never posted this foolishness.

 

[LouisLeGros]

Yes there is. The gap is just to small for people to care about.

or too small for any side to really come to any consensus. I've play Starcraft since 1.0 and I have no idea how each race would be placed.

The game is just so ridiculously balanced at like every level play

edit:
videos of a sonic player beating level 9 computers doesn't make him top tier material, I'm sorry but not every character can be top tier.

 

[IWuvGeno]

Both Ganondorf and Falcon suck that much, and Sonic is even worse. These characters have virtually no potential compared to Pichu and Mewtwo.

Falcon isn't horrible, he's just worse. He has potential. Funny how no one plays Falcon and yet we have all this cynicism. There's a good chance I'm the best Falcon you've ever seen if you think he's that bad.

 

[KonradGabreil]

Not going to happen.. any time this year.

 

[ThePlantiff]

Anyone who says Sonic is terrible has NOT
been to a Sonic Board lately. Take a look
at these videos and eat your heart out at
the potential of Sonic.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=89dwzbj7ius
Lucky vs. Wario

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fXsENGJ0Tqg
Orochi ANIHILATES not 1, but TWO level 9 CPUs

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rro24w74ilw
Orochi *****..and i mean...***** a level 9 CPU


Also, take into account at the technical
advantages of the character; it's ridiculous
how much he can abuse glitches.

And NO, i am NOT a Sonic Player. I am a Pit
and Pokemon Trainer player. So I'm being
very fair and objective here when I say
that Sonic will be a high tier once all of his
advanced techniques are fully exploited,
and you guys can hide and pretend like you
never posted this foolishness.

Sorry to break it up to you, but beating lvl 9 computers does not mean anything, I could after 3 hours of play.

You talk about technical advantages and glitches, care to develop your point?

I also main Pit, does this help my post? No, neither does it help yours.

Umm, the metagame isn't very developed yet, besides do you know all advanced techniques?

besides with your "eat your heart out" and "and you guys can hide and pretend like you never posted this foolishness" you sound like Maximosmasher.

 

[Fletch]

Anyone who says Sonic is terrible has NOT
been to a Sonic Board lately. Take a look
at these videos and eat your heart out at
the potential of Sonic.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=89dwzbj7ius
Lucky vs. Wario

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fXsENGJ0Tqg
Orochi ANIHILATES not 1, but TWO level 9 CPUs

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rro24w74ilw
Orochi *****..and i mean...***** a level 9 CPU


Also, take into account at the technical
advantages of the character; it's ridiculous
how much he can abuse glitches.

And NO, i am NOT a Sonic Player. I am a Pit
and Pokemon Trainer player. So I'm being
very fair and objective here when I say
that Sonic will be a high tier once all of his
advanced techniques are fully exploited,
and you guys can hide and pretend like you
never posted this foolishness.

Any half-way decent Smasher can annihilate any level 9 computer with any character at any time... Those kind of matches prove nothing.

 

[J0K3R]

This is kind of a get-back-on-topic post, but i think that currently, with the metagame having no real use of signifigant AT's makes the tier list more diverse because all the characters are limited to their intended potential.

Would nintendo make Snake with the thought,"Oh, he's about equal to yoshi". no, they wouldn't. Anytime there is a fighting game with a wide cast of characters, there must be a tier list. Saying there is no tier list implies that Dk could challenge an olimar and have it be a toss up, everytime. Statistics will show that most likely olimar has a higher win% in this scenario, and thusly, is better

Better, now there's a word. Let's take a look at the dictionary definition.

Better, adj, of superior quality or excellence

So, to the OP, why do you feel as though no tier list is necessary. Are you saying that someone who has played smash for years can play DK and recover/gimp as well as a pit?

Tier lists are always going to happen, just because AT's aren't fully abused yet further emphasizes my point that there will be a greater spread of characters potential. Unless some groundbreaking tech is discovered, the tier list will be more spread and more potent than that of Melee's or 64's.

 

[Fletch]

This is kind of a get-back-on-topic post, but i think that currently, with the metagame having no real use of signifigant AT's makes the tier list more diverse because all the characters are limited to their intended potential.

Would nintendo make Snake with the thought,"Oh, he's about equal to yoshi". no, they wouldn't. Anytime there is a fighting game with a wide cast of characters, there must be a tier list. Saying there is no tier list implies that Dk could challenge an olimar and have it be a toss up, everytime. Statistics will show that most likely olimar has a higher win% in this scenario, and thusly, is better

Better, now there's a word. Let's take a look at the dictionary definition.

Better, adj, of superior quality or excellence

So, to the OP, why do you feel as though no tier list is necessary. Are you saying that someone who has played smash for years can play DK and recover/gimp as well as a pit?

Tier lists are always going to happen, just because AT's aren't fully abused yet further emphasizes my point that there will be a greater spread of characters potential. Unless some groundbreaking tech is discovered, the tier list will be more spread and more potent than that of Melee's or 64's.

Couldn't agree more.

 

[Garde]

The tiers came around because of the metagame. Falco, Fox, Marth, and Sheik were not inherently better than any other character, but because of how players played the game, using them proved advantageous statistically. Give Brawl a year and it will have tiers just like Melee, although most likely the metagame will be entirely different, so a lot of the old faves from Melee might find themselves near the bottom. It happened with the change from 64 to Melee.

You obviously don't understand what character properties entail. Tier lists aren't just about how well characters do in tournaments. I was in the MBR several years ago (before I went inactive) and helped with at least one of the revisions. More than 50% of the members that were participating were going off of character properties and how they could be used most effectively by players, and what advantages that gave a character over others.

Some characters ARE inherently better than others. Some properties, (such as being able to shine spike, pillar, have insanely high priority, long reaching hitboxes, chain grabs) give characters big advantages over other characters. Sure, the properties don't necessarily show themselves unless a player knows how to use them properly, but it STILL boils down characters properties. Sometimes properties are so easy to use they just come out in using standard moves (high priority), sometimes it's through a combination of complex inputs (shine combos, pillaring, etc.).

An example of an innate advantage is that high priority disjointed hitboxes beat out shorter range moves and lower priority moves of the same speed (that is a HUGE advantage regardless of what you say).

Chain grabs are almost free damage and can help give a character an advantage against those who can be chain grabbed (though it depends on other properties as well, chain grabbing won't win the match). Someone who has fast moves with good stun can often times rush opponents safely and not worry about getting shield grabbed.

So while the tier lists may be loosely based off of tournament results, it generally has a lot more to do with how a character's properties can be used when played perfectly (no errors and utilizing tactics/abilities to their fullest potential). Sure, a lot of lesser played characters might not be accurately ranked for their TRUE potential (since people were constantly discovering new abilities for specific characters), but they are ranked by our best knowledge of their potential.

EDIT: Other important properties include character weight (resistance to outright KOs), floatiness (for getting back to the stage), recovery options/versatility, which all add up to overall survivability. Another thing that's very important for characters is their KO potential. Are their KO moves quick and easy to land? How punishable are they if they miss? A lot of these things are considered character properties that determine how good the characters are. If you look at top and high tier for the Melee list, you'll see that most of them have easy KO moves to land, or easy setups into their KO moves. Many of them have good recovery options (Peach, Marth, Sheik) or have high survivability (Samus, Peach, and Marth to some extent), while others are just really hard to KO (Samus).

 

[J0K3R]

Couldn't agree more.

Yayz! I am teh win

 

[yoonie]

it's not impossible to have a game with more than one move set and no tiers- it's just very, very unlikely, since the characters would have to be perfectly balanced

 

[Winston]

it's not impossible to have a game with more than one move set and no tiers- it's just very, very unlikely, since the characters would have to be perfectly balanced

Starcraft is basically the only such game ... and it's not even a fighter >.>

 

[distr0ia]

Starcraft is basically the only such game ... and it's not even a fighter >.>

you nailed it; Starcraft is an incredible game

anyway, there will be a tier list for Brawl...whether we like it or not. however, I think the "distance" between the characters' relative positions on this list can be visualized as being somewhat smaller; anyone agree?

 

[-Mars-]

i completely agree, this is the most balanced game in the series

 

[LOL_Master]

ya i completely agwee

 

[SmashBro99]

Yes we will have one, and no, it won't mean a thing.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Starcraft is basically the only such game ... and it's not even a fighter >.>

Oh, it does, the differences between the races as far as overall ability is there, it's just MUCH smaller. It generally changes whenever there is a patch that affects gameplay (as opposed to just fixing a glitch) because it's such a small difference, but it is still there.

As you increase movesets/factions/whatevers it becomes more and more difficult to balance, since there were only 3 to worry about, Blizzard got it very close, but perfection is impossible without the two being identical because it requires infinite detail.

 

[Linkplayer5678]

http://super-smash-bros.wikia.com/wiki/Tier_list
TIERS BANNED FROM BRAWL!

 

[goateeguy]

Sorry to break it up to you, but beating lvl 9 computers does not mean anything, I could after 3 hours of play.

You talk about technical advantages and glitches, care to develop your point?

I also main Pit, does this help my post? No, neither does it help yours.

Umm, the metagame isn't very developed yet, besides do you know all advanced techniques?

besides with your "eat your heart out" and "and you guys can hide and pretend like you never posted this foolishness" you sound like Maximosmasher.

it took you three hours to get lvl 9 comps?!? dude, i could do it from the second i picked up the game!!! just goes further to prove your point. level 9s are NOT in any way to be considered difficult to anyone experienced.

 

[UnderwaterGuy]

Ok first off I'm sorry I didn't read the whole thread, but I got through at least 20 some pages and I'm too annoyed to refrain from posting. I just made an account but I've lurked on this site for years because of all the information and to learn about characters evolving metagames. I hope Maximo is still readgin this thread and I bet he is.

How can you possibly be as ignorant as you are Maximo? You just keep going on and on calling Yuna and others elitist because they aren't casual gamers and you insult everyone that takes videogames seriously. You said repeatedly in your early arguments that you are sick of "stupid" people that pick their characters based on the tier list and you clearly look down on most of the human race (at least more than half that is, and I wonder if your "girlfriend" knows what a misogynist you are? Callin Yuna a chick as an insult in an oh-so-clever way by referring to him as "her") You also spend hours drawing pictures of videogame characters, is THAT not taking it seriously?, seriously enough to consider it art at least?

Really I feel sorry for you because I'll admit i was once a lot like you. I pretty much rew up with melee and me and my friends were flat out obsessed, for years. As sad as it can seem to some poeple a few of my best memories come directly from playing that game either alone or with my buddies, and in my opinion it was the best game ever and everything after it will be compared to it. I came to smashboards after I had been playing melee for a few years and I knew nothing of wavedashing, dashdancing, tier lists or any of those things. BUT somehow my two favorite characters were already falco and marth. i started out as a roy main and I still love roy and how he plays, but without any pro experience I was able to clearly see marth;s superiority and i switched to him. I didn't want to believe in the tier lists cause I wanted my favorite game to be perfectly balanced but I knew from playing tekken and other fighters that these games just can't be balanced.

I really think that if you try to calm down and look at tiers in a mature fashion you might realize that they are real and the list is there to inform.

 

[Legend Blade]

You don't seem to understand what a tier list is. Some characters WILL be better than others. These differences in playstyle you note is one of the reasons. Some playstyles will be better for winning than others. We'll see a tier list develop in a year and it will constantly change as the game evolves.

Since there are different playing styles some must be weak to others. I've seen it like that in a different game. For example: Ike can only use short ranged attacks, and uses a slow heavy sword style. So a charicter who can hit with longer ranged attacks, run somewhere else, use another long range attack, and repeats until Ike is at high damage then goes in for the kill would have an advantage. However, Ness/Lucas could beat that style with their PSI Magnet ability, giving them and advantage, ect.

So since some styles will be strong against others, there is not enough consistancy to be able to make an effective tier list. Charicters that get popular will be met by an increased amount of charicters who have a style that trounce that charicter's and the same may happen to that charicter.

 

[TehBo49]

Since there are different playing styles some must be weak to others. I've seen it like that in a different game. For example: Ike can only use short ranged attacks, and uses a slow heavy sword style. So a charicter who can hit with longer ranged attacks, run somewhere else, use another long range attack, and repeats until Ike is at high damage then goes in for the kill would have an advantage. However, Ness/Lucas could beat that style with their PSI Magnet ability, giving them and advantage, ect.

So since some styles will be strong against others, there is not enough consistancy to be able to make an effective tier list. Charicters that get popular will be met by an increased amount of charicters who have a style that trounce that charicter's and the same may happen to that charicter.

While I agree with your point, the truth is that some playstyles are more easily countered & some are harder to counter. For example, Ganondorf is a slow, powerful character without a projectile or a method to reflect projectiles & poor recovery. Thus an ideal counter for him would a fast character with a decent projectile & good egdeguarding. While not every character fits this description exactly, a lot of characters have a sufficient amount of these qualities to be considered a counter to Ganondorf.

In reverse, Olimar is a light, fast character with high range, decent strength, a very good projectile, & poor recovery. Thus an ideal counter for him would be a fast(er) character with good edgeguarding, powerful KO moves, high(er) range, relatively high weight, & some attribute that makes pikmin less effective against them. There is almost no character that fits this description closely.

Because Ganondorf is countered by many character's playstyles, he is considered to be a poorer character. Because Olimar is not easily countered, he is considered one of the better characters. This is the basic way in which a tier list forms.

 

[ssbbFICTION]

it took you three hours to get lvl 9 comps?!? dude, i could do it from the second i picked up the game!!! just goes further to prove your point. level 9s are NOT in any way to be considered difficult to anyone experienced.

Except for level 9 wolfs who keep shield grabbing on every move. You can still beat them, but it gets pretty annoying.

 

[Twin Dreams]

A tier list represents characters in order of how good they are when used with a maximum technical skill. Because we don't have a program that uses the best moves at the exact best time, we can't possibly know for sure. So here's how it usually plays out.



1. Tournaments start
2. First Tier-List is formed.

Repeat:
3. People develop Anit-top tier strategies and develop the bottom tier
4. New tier list with minor adjustments for new found data.

 

[LOL_Master]

ike is the best, put ike on top of list

 

[CyberGlitch]

Where's my Team Fortress 2 tier list?

While it doesn't have an official list, per say, there are classes that generally have the advantage and are played more often. Many complain that Soldier is "broken." Among him in high tier would be Demoman and possibly Scout. Middle tier has sniper, heavy. Middle-low tier has engy and medic (though medic can be used very effectively, tiers are also a level of favorability, while I love medic, apparently others don't ), pyro, and spy.

With the continued updates, however, the characters are ever improving in balance. It's a great game. I do see your point, however, team based games tend to be more flexible and less "tier" dependent.

1 on 1 games, however, generally do have tiers. The differences between characters are much more obvious.

 

[poorboy93]

There is no tier list, because no one wants to make it.

Tiers exist if there is diversity, just like everyone said.

I want a Tier list for humans for races then XD

 

[LOL_Master]

chinese is top tier

 

[J0K3R]

ike is the best, put ike on top of list

no comment........

 

[evilflame101]

Tiers exist, but what good does an official tier list do, i mean who does it help?

 

[Vory V Zakone]

I laugh at the notion.

Look, tiers exist because people always find a way to exploit some cheap means of winning in a smash contest. Whether it be Marth or Jigglypuff or some other jerkoff. On the other hand I'm sick of hearing people complain about counterpicked characters. If you are ANY good with your character of choice you should be able to put up a fight against any "top tier" joke that opposes you. Myself, I prefer heavyweights and i do very well with them. Even against faster or what would be deemed "top tier" characters. So quit yer belly achin' and fight like a man you shoot from afar and run away cowards. ( you know who you are.)

 

[Twin Dreams]

Look, tiers exist because people always find a way to exploit some cheap means of winning in a smash contest. Whether it be Marth or Jigglypuff or some other jerkoff. On the other hand I'm sick of hearing people complain about counterpicked characters. If you are ANY good with your character of choice you should be able to put up a fight against any "top tier" joke that opposes you. Myself, I prefer heavyweights and i do very well with them. Even against faster or what would be deemed "top tier" characters. So quit yer belly achin' and fight like a man you shoot from afar and run away cowards. ( you know who you are.)

Ok. So, let's say you have use a mid-tier character. You are REALLY good with him. Then, let's say that a top tier character has an infinite on your character.




Round 1

You fail to dodge EVERY attack and are then infinite combo'd to death.





Round 2

Here, you have the option of picking someone else. Do you use your same character or do you pick a character than can combo the character your oppponent just used?











Competitive play isn't just about skill. It's about knowledge, strategy, technical skill, and predictability.


Here's what you'll need to do well at tournaments..

1. How to play your character
2. Who counters your character
3. How to play your character's counter
4. Who counters your character's counter
5. How to play THOSE characters
6. Know how each stage affect each specific match up
7. The most current information of AT on the community


Once you have learned at least that much, you'll do consistently well. (assuming you have the strategy, skill, and mind games to back it up.)

 

[everlasting yayuhzz]

Why do people constantly ***** about tier lists? How does it affect you and how you play?

 

[Twin Dreams]

Why do people constantly ***** about tier lists? How does it affect you and how you play?

You mean tier lists don't actually force me or anyone else to pick a character? And are only just a list of how good the characters are doing, in descending order, in the tournament scene?!?!?!??!!

 

[everlasting yayuhzz]

I think so!!! AT LEAST THAT'S WHAT I THOUGHT! What if I'm wrong though! Then I'll have to play a character I don't like!!! Someone reply ASAP!! I needs to knowzZ!!!zz!!!

 

[Zema]

Why do people constantly ***** about tier lists? How does it affect you and how you play?

Exactly. They don't. People just list them according to how much they are used in tourneys. N one used Mewtwo in Melee, thus he was said to be horrible. My brother is really good with Mewtwo though, so I don't see how that works. -.-

Tiers are just opinions, and an official tier list is many people's opinions put together. In general: Tiers are useless in every shape and form. Never rely on tiers for which character to use!

 

[everlasting yayuhzz]

Exactly. They don't. People just list them according to how much they are used in tourneys. N one used Mewtwo in Melee, thus he was said to be horrible. My brother is really good with Mewtwo though, so I don't see how that works. -.-

Tiers are just opinions, and an official tier list is many people's opinions put together. In general: Tiers are useless in every shape and form. Never rely on tiers for which character to use!

Tiers aren't completely "useless", they are a guide to which characters do best on a competitive level. Mew2 wasn't as good as Fox or Marth in Melee overall, which is why they were in different places on the list. Does that mean M2 can't win? No. Any character can win. Does it mean Fox or Marth had more options vs more people, the better moveset and better matchups in general? Yes.

And people DO ***** and moan about tier lists. Have you been reading this god**** thread? DO YOU SEE THE TITLE OF THIS THREAD? Lolz...

 

[Fletch]

Exactly. They don't. People just list them according to how much they are used in tourneys. N one used Mewtwo in Melee, thus he was said to be horrible. My brother is really good with Mewtwo though, so I don't see how that works. -.-

Tiers are just opinions, and an official tier list is many people's opinions put together. In general: Tiers are useless in every shape and form. Never rely on tiers for which character to use!

So is Taj, but this is no way means Mewtwo is a good character. If you don't understand the existence of tiers, you should not be playing competitive fighting games.