Who's Canonically the Strongest Character in Smash?

[ShadowLBlue]

Palutena: Yeah, she's pretty decent in her own right. I was just saying why she's not top tier. Nice tier list, by the way.

Link: No, Link is Twilight Princess Link. All of the games have a different Link. Twilight Princess Link (AKA ) never had access to the Wind Waker, or the Ocarina, or the Loftwing, or the masks from Majora's Mask, etc. Link from Smash 64/Melee is Adult Link from OoT, as evidenced by him playing the Ocarina in the intro movie. Link from Brawl onwards is Link from TP, as shown by the Gale Boomerang, his appearance, and everything else I listed in a previous post. There is no unified Link to be featured in Smash in the first place; each Link is a completely different character.

Young Link: So when did Young Link from Ocarina of Time/Majora's Mask use, say, the Wind Waker? Or the Spirit Train (or whatever it might be called in Spirit Tracks)? Or the King of Red Lions? Or anything else not from Ocarina of Time or Majora's Mask? Each Link is, canonically, a different character. It's directly stated in Zelda lore. In official Zelda canon, there is no "composite" Link. This topic is all about canon. If there is no "composite" Link in Zelda canon, then one cannot be used in a discussion based around canon.

Since when does agree to disagree mean "berate other person's opinion after you've agreed to stop arguing"? It'd be different if I was supporting a radical/unpopular opinion, but I'm not.

That's your opinion. And Dryn's. I've posted plenty of evidence to the contrary, you just disagreed with it. Unless we get a large majority of people saying it should just be Link from a single game, you have no right to tell me I can't use composite Link.
However you are correct that in Zelda canon there is no single Link, but, there are multiple references that refer to Link in the Smash Bros series as "the hero of the Zelda series", rather than using one specific title from any game. It would have been easy to just call him "the hero of time" or "hero of twilight". However their descriptions of him are always vague, so despite what you say, you should be able to admit it's somewhat of a grey area if this Link is a composite Link. FYI, The composite Link is the soul of the hero who is always reincarnated but always has the same personality, somewhat similar tools, and the same garb.

Also, @Dryn , I'm tired of debating Mewtwo vs Samus when I'm only playing Devil's Advocate. You can chalk that up as a win for you. And if you really think composite Link's extra gear changes nothing, you didn't read any posts of mine or Nerdicon's about him. 3 Days of invincibility and an unbreakable magic shield (albeit one that still allows knockbacks) would change any battle. Not to mention he could spam his spells. But you said you don't believe in him, I won't try to debate you on the matter.

When Link casted a spell in OoT, the environment around him would freeze in time, same thing happens when he plays the Ocarina. This may or may not just be a game mechanic, but Link is the Hero of Time. I also want to mention a few other things he has

• By playing the reverse Song of time he effectively halves the speed of everything except him, well kinda. If my memory is correct this for some reason doesn't slow down enemies
• Can shrink to minute size using a gnat hat while not losing any durability
• He can split into four less than cooperative versions of himself with the same abilities as him, just not the same items
• Being the brilliant strategist he is, I'm sure Farore's Wind might come in some handy
• The mirror shield reflects light and light-based attacks
• The Hylian Shield is indestructible, but he can't attack while holding it up.
• Masks
• Can lift gigantic pillars of rock and throw them with little to no effort

Is shown defeating his own men in Meta Knightmare Ultra and gaining points from that, it's reasonable to believe he could summon them just to kill them off. We see no evidence of Meta Knight absorbing the warp star in the Milky Way Wishes portion of Meta Knightmare Ultra, and we know by now how far apart the planets are, not to mention the whole teleportation at will thing, though it can be assumed he can't go far with it, else he would just teleport from planet to planet. The only other characters I can think of who can teleport at will like that are Pit and Palutena, though moving at light speed is basically teleporting in such a small space.

As a Pokémon can canonically have only 4 moves, someone should make a standard moveset for all the Pokémon involved in this discussion

I'm confident it's gameplay mechanic. But even if it wasn't, he can only cast his spell during that time so I'm not sure it matters. FYI, where do you stand on the "Link having weapons from all of his games debate?" It'd be nice to get another opinion.

I thought about that, but doesn't he have to kill a lot of his men to do that? And I was referring to Kirby's Nightmare in Dreamland when I said he absorbs Warpstars. Also Mewtwo can also teleport.

Well, it looks like you're on your own in that regard.

I know why you place Pit above Palutena. That doesn't address anything I said.

Here are the top six in my tier list. I've yet to consider the rest.

Why is Mega man above Ganondorf? I'm presuming you're treating Ganondorf as "killable by non-holy weapons"?
Otherwise good list.

Yes, we're talking about Brawl. We're taking the characters from Smash games (in this case the Pokemon Trainer from Brawl) as they appear in Smash and comparing those portrayals to canon. The fighters in Brawl that make up the Pokemon Trainer are , , , and . Thus, in this discussion, the entity of "Pokemon Trainer" equals , , , and . Let's take your logic from the last sentence of your post, that being that characters should be able to have as many allies as they want (since that's what Pokemon essentially are):
- In canon, can ride a Yoshi, but we don't have him doing that here.
- In canon, can command all of Hyrule (being the ruler of the kingdom and all), but we don't have her doing that here.
- In canon, can get Tails or Knuckles to help him out, but we don't have him doing that here.
- In (Ganon ) canon, has an army of Moblins and the like to summon, but we don't have him doing that here.
- In canon, has an entire town to lead (he's the mayor, after all), but we don't have him doing that here.
- In canon, and have an entire space fighter team to call for backup, but we don't have them doing that here.
- In canon, could potentially use more Pokemon, but we don't have him doing that here.

We're testing the characters on their own, not the characters plus their allies.

The difference in all of those is Pokémon are essential to Pokémon Trainer. You'll never have a Pokémon Trainer without his Pokémon in a fight or in general. Pokémon can attack without their trainer, but (in game) a Trainer can't perform any battle options without his Pokémon. Pokémon trainer is basically the equivalent of a summoner in an RPG. Access to his Pokémon, ALL of them, is a part of his moveset. Nothinin Smash Bros or Pokémon suggests PT should only have access to those 3 Pokémon besides gameplay reason.

 

[Crystanium]

There are, but there are too many differences to treat them as one entity. It's like the new Sonic Boom spinoff series; there's the same base characters, but many differences and it's a different universe.

The difference with Sonic and Samus is that, like you said, we have textual evidence. There's nothing indicating the cannonballs moving that fast, however.

I would't treat them as one entity, but it makes me wonder if I should grant Ganondorf that feat of being immune to Valoo's flame, even though he's the incarnation from The Wind Waker. If this immunity is from the Triforce of Power, then I suppose it could be.

Perhaps not, but there's nothing telling us how fast Samus' beams and missiles travel, either. Here's the problem. Hammer Brothers hammers are affected by gravity, as they arc and drop to the ground. These cannonballs travel incredibly slow, but keep flying in the direction they're launched. Heck, even the kinds that launch downward travel at the same speed, rather than 9.81 m/s^2.

Let's take this acceleration and see how far it'd travel. Go here. (By the way, I'm using the New Super Mario Bros. Wii. You can see here.) So here's an experiment I will try. First, the mass of the cannonball needs to be determined. Mario's height is 154.94 cm. In pixels, he's equal to 45 px. The cannonballs are 21 px. 45 px. / 21 px. is 2.1428571428571429, and multiplying this by 154.94 cm. gives us 332.014285714285720926 cm. The volume of a sphere is 4/3 * pi * r^3, so this means we end up with 19,163,240 cm^3. Iron has a density of 7.87 g/cm^3, so we end up with 150,815 kg.

In this cannonball simulator, I put the angle at 45 degrees with a velocity of 9.81 m/s, just because the downward cannonball wasn't traveling any faster. I made the mass 150,815 kg. and I ignored air resistance. With these numbers punched in, the cannonball only covers a range of 10.9 m. We know that this is not the range these cannonballs cover. In order to get higher, we need to increase the muzzle velocity. 50 m/s without air resistance leaves a trace with a slight curvature. We need a straight line. It seems 60 or 70 m/s works.

That's your opinion. And Dryn's. I've posted plenty of evidence to the contrary, you just disagreed with it. Unless we get a large majority of people saying it should just be Link from a single game, you have no right to tell me I can't use composite Link.

You're free to work with composite Link if you want. That means anyone else is free to use composite Sonic, Samus, Mario, &c. I personally won't, though.

However you are correct that in Zelda canon there is no single Link, but, there are multiple references that refer to Link in the Smash Bros series as "the hero of the Zelda series", rather than using one specific title from any game.

I think it's just being general, not specific.

The composite Link is the soul of the hero who is always reincarnated but always has the same personality, somewhat similar tools, and the same garb.

I agree. Ever since Twilight Princess was released, I took Link to be the same soul who was reincarnated and had no recollection of his past self. Each game presents Link with different equipment, just like each game in Metroid presents Samus with different upgrades. I'm only working with one incarnation for everyone while retaining innate abilities.

Also, @Dryn , I'm tired of debating Mewtwo vs Samus when I'm only playing Devil's Advocate. You can chalk that up as a win for you.

I don't take these as "wins". I'm just debating and having fun.

And if you really think composite Link's extra gear changes nothing, you didn't read any posts of mine or Nerdicon's about him. 3 Days of invincibility and an unbreakable magic shield (albeit one that still allows knockbacks) would change any battle. Not to mention he could spam his spells.

I think I'll make a post tackling composite Link while only using one incarnation of Samus.

Why is Mega man above Ganondorf? I'm presuming you're treating Ganondorf as "killable by non-holy weapons"?
Otherwise good list.

I'm not sure where to place Ganondorf, honestly. I was thinking of using Mega Man from whichever game the majority of his attacks in Super Smash Bros. 4 was based off of. Mega Man has four attacks from Mega Man 2 and Mega Man 3 in SSB4, so I thought I'd just go with the most recent incarnation: Mega Man 10. This incarnation doesn't seem to have as great of an arsenal.

I'm thinking of putting Ganondorf up there on the list, though. I don't know who win between Dark Pit and Ganondorf. With Pit, I'd say he can defeat Ganondorf because of the arrows of light. His weapons originate from gods, which is why I also think he'd stand a chance against Ganondorf. He's slower than Sonic and Samus, though. So it could very well be Ganondorf is below Pit, but above Dark Pit.

Like I said, though, I've yet to consider everyone else.

 

[Nerdicon]

I see it that way as well, but I would't be surprised if there are similarities between the two.

It's never said in SMB that Mario has this reaction time. It's just in SMB3 that Mario gets onto airships that fire cannonballs.

It's never said how fast the cannonballs travel in Mario. While visually, these cannonballs aren't flying very fast in the games, objects that are meant to travel fast, but do not in game play doesn't necessarily mean they're not traveling this speed. Here's what I mean. We have textual evidence for Sonic and Samus' speed, but game play limits these.

I think we've established that determining speed is hard when it comes to characters whose speed has not been explicitly stated.
If you want, run some calculations to give a rough idea of Mario's speed.

 

[Nerdicon]

Quick thoughts on the top tiers
Can deliver a hit with infinite velocity, so can basically kill anyone who's not invincible in one hit. He has a holy sword to deal with Ganondorf but would lose to characters with telekinesis like Mewtwo or Ness

Both have a wide arsenal of weaponry, good durability, as well as flight (Dark Pit). They also have teleportation and invisibility which helps against Sonic

Invincible to non-holy attacks, this isn't as big a deal as some might think though as most top tiers have holy weaponry (Sonic, Pit, Meta Knight) other than that he has immense power and durability

I don't really know much about Samus

Has powerful psychic abilities to counter Sonic and Samus, as well as several other techniques for combat

Literally invincible for 3 days among other things

Only 8 inches tall but with hypernova can inhale enemies 5 feet tall along with warp stars he can use to navigate. Okay power when you consider his size. Ridiculous durability

Probably around 9 inches tall with teleportation, fast flight, and sword beams that literally cut through anything.

Similar to Mewtwo, just weaker on the telekinesis but strong everywhere else, even melee. Can literally fry your brain

 

[Munomario777]

Since when does agree to disagree mean "berate other person's opinion after you've agreed to stop arguing"? It'd be different if I was supporting a radical/unpopular opinion, but I'm not.

Since you brought the subject back up.
Right, you're not supporting an unpopular opinion. You have an unpopular belief on a factual subject (more on that after the next quote block).

That's your opinion. And Dryn's. I've posted plenty of evidence to the contrary, you just disagreed with it.

Facts are not opinions. Facts can be proven one way or the other. Opinions vary from person to person. Examples of opinions:
"I like apples."
"My favorite game is Super Mario Galaxy."
"I like playing as Sonic in Smash."
"The Mona Lisa is the best looking painting, in my opinion."
Examples of facts:
"Apples are red."
"Super Mario Galaxy was released for the Wii."
"Sonic is the fastest runner in Smash."
"Leonarda da Vinci painted the Mona Lisa."
The subject of whether or not Link is from Twilight Princess falls into the latter category. It has a right or wrong (Is Link the Link from TP? Yes/no), and it isn't a preference thing (an opinion on the subject would be "I would like it if Link was the Skyward Sword incarnation," for example). Thus, it is a factual subject.

Unless we get a large majority of people saying it should just be Link from a single game, you have no right to tell me I can't use composite Link.

Okay.
People saying it #1
People saying it #2
People saying it #3
People saying it #4
People saying it #5
All of this in addition to the evidence I've provided, of course.

However you are correct that in Zelda canon there is no single Link, but, there are multiple references that refer to Link in the Smash Bros series as "the hero of the Zelda series", rather than using one specific title from any game. It would have been easy to just call him "the hero of time" or "hero of twilight". However their descriptions of him are always vague, so despite what you say, you should be able to admit it's somewhat of a grey area if this Link is a composite Link. FYI, The composite Link is the soul of the hero who is always reincarnated but always has the same personality, somewhat similar tools, and the same garb.

Yes, Link is "the hero of the Zelda series," and is reincarnated in each game. However, the incarnation in Smash is that from Twilight Princess, and the character we see in-game and in the trophy. Thus, that is the Link we should use in this discussion. Also, the names of "Hero of Time/Twilight" are more obscure than just "Link," and the actual name of the character (such as calling Sonic Sonic instead of the Blue Blur). It is a bit of a gray area, but it can still be determined.
In other words, "the hero of the Zelda series" is always named "Link," and so is the trophy, so it fits. This version of Link is from Twilight Princess, and is also named "Link," so the trophy name fits. Link from Twilight Princess is a reincarnation of "the hero of the Zelda series," so the description fits. There's no contradictions here. It's sort of "neutral evidence," since it doesn't really contradict or prove one way or the other (unless, of course, you're seeing something I'm not, in which case, feel free to point it out).

The difference in all of those is Pokémon are essential to Pokémon Trainer. You'll never have a Pokémon Trainer without his Pokémon in a fight or in general. Pokémon can attack without their trainer, but (in game) a Trainer can't perform any battle options without his Pokémon. Pokémon trainer is basically the equivalent of a summoner in an RPG. Access to his Pokémon, ALL of them, is a part of his moveset. Nothing Smash Bros or Pokémon suggests PT should only have access to those 3 Pokémon besides gameplay reason.

Tails was essential to Sonic in Marble Garden's boss fight (he carried Sonic in order to fight the boss in the air). Team Star Fox is near essential to Fox in the group battles. Yoshi was essential to Mario in the Yoshi's Island games. Epona is essential to Link when crossing large areas quickly. The King of Red Lions is essential to Toon Link in order to progress past Windfall in Wind Waker. Dedede's army is essential to him in the Kirby games to try and keep Kirby at bay through the levels (that goes for Bowser and Ganondorf as well). It doesn't matter if they're "essential" to the character. If they're an ally, they're not an extension of the character; they're a totally different character. This Pokemon Trainer will be fighting with Pokemon, those being the three he has in Brawl. That's the character represented in Smash. He is a summoner, but he can only summon the things he has. Mages in games can't use spells they haven't learned yet. Similarly, this trainer only has those three Pokemon to use. The fact that those are the three Pokemon he has in Brawl not only suggests, but proves that this Pokemon Trainer only has those three Pokemon. If he had more, why wouldn't he use them in battle? "Gameplay reasons?" What gameplay reasons? Even the events in Subspace show that he only has those three (he catches them throughout the events, and captures no other Pokemon). There's nothing in Smash or Pokemon to suggest that this particular, unnamed trainer (he's not Red; he's just a generic "Pokemon Trainer") has more Pokemon than he's shown having. However, he could potentially catch another Pokemon if he's fighting one (for instance, he could potentially catch with a Poke Ball if he was fighting him as his main opponent).

 

[HylianDuelist]

They have an amazingly big range of weapons, many holy powers, Flight,(Dark Pit) and of course, The Great Sacred Treasure(Pit)

 

[Stressedllamas]

SHULK HAS KILLED GOD

 

[Kirby Dragons]

Tails was essential to Sonic in Marble Garden's boss fight (he carried Sonic in order to fight the boss in the air). Team Star Fox is near essential to Fox in the group battles. Yoshi was essential to Mario in the Yoshi's Island games. Epona is essential to Link when crossing large areas quickly. The King of Red Lions is essential to Toon Link in order to progress past Windfall in Wind Waker. Dedede's army is essential to him in the Kirby games to try and keep Kirby at bay through the levels (that goes for Bowser and Ganondorf as well). It doesn't matter if they're "essential" to the character. If they're an ally, they're not an extension of the character; they're a totally different character. This Pokemon Trainer will be fighting with Pokemon, those being the three he has in Brawl. That's the character represented in Smash. He is a summoner, but he can only summon the things he has. Mages in games can't use spells they haven't learned yet. Similarly, this trainer only has those three Pokemon to use. The fact that those are the three Pokemon he has in Brawl not only suggests, but proves that this Pokemon Trainer only has those three Pokemon. If he had more, why wouldn't he use them in battle? "Gameplay reasons?" What gameplay reasons? Even the events in Subspace show that he only has those three (he catches them throughout the events, and captures no other Pokemon). There's nothing in Smash or Pokemon to suggest that this particular, unnamed trainer (he's not Red; he's just a generic "Pokemon Trainer") has more Pokemon than he's shown having. However, he could potentially catch another Pokemon if he's fighting one (for instance, he could potentially catch with a Poke Ball if he was fighting him as his main opponent).

You don't get it, do you? All of those examples you mentioned were for just one specific situation. Pokémon are essential to their trainers in all situations.
And the Pokémon are summonable by means of standard equipment. Those examples were not summoned at all.
Again, we're observing canon. It doesn't matter if someone doesn't have it in Smash. The Ice Flower has been used over and over again by Mario. Does he have it in Smash? No. Does he get it here? Yes.

 

[Nerdicon]

Since you brought the subject back up.
Right, you're not supporting an unpopular opinion. You have an unpopular belief on a factual subject (more on that after the next quote block).

Facts are not opinions. Facts can be proven one way or the other. Opinions vary from person to person. Examples of opinions:
"I like apples."
"My favorite game is Super Mario Galaxy."
"I like playing as Sonic in Smash."
"The Mona Lisa is the best looking painting, in my opinion."
Examples of facts:
"Apples are red."
"Super Mario Galaxy was released for the Wii."
"Sonic is the fastest runner in Smash."
"Leonarda da Vinci painted the Mona Lisa."
The subject of whether or not Link is from Twilight Princess falls into the latter category. It has a right or wrong (Is Link the Link from TP? Yes/no), and it isn't a preference thing (an opinion on the subject would be "I would like it if Link was the Skyward Sword incarnation," for example). Thus, it is a factual subject.

Agreed

Yes, Link is "the hero of the Zelda series," and is reincarnated in each game. However, the incarnation in Smash is that from Twilight Princess, and the character we see in-game and in the trophy. Thus, that is the Link we should use in this discussion. Also, the names of "Hero of Time/Twilight" are more obscure than just "Link," and the actual name of the character (such as calling Sonic Sonic instead of the Blue Blur). It is a bit of a gray area, but it can still be determined.
In other words, "the hero of the Zelda series" is always named "Link," and so is the trophy, so it fits. This version of Link is from Twilight Princess, and is also named "Link," so the trophy name fits. Link from Twilight Princess is a reincarnation of "the hero of the Zelda series," so the description fits. There's no contradictions here. It's sort of "neutral evidence," since it doesn't really contradict or prove one way or the other (unless, of course, you're seeing something I'm not, in which case, feel free to point it out).

Although the Link in Smash 4 looks like TP Link he has elements from the other Links, like the upward and downward thrusts from Zelda 2 or even minor things like the F-tilt being similar to one of the slashes from Ocarina of Time. Link in Sm4sh is not exclusively based on TP Link. As a matter of fact most of the characters in Smash are composites like Kirby or Samus

Tails was essential to Sonic in Marble Garden's boss fight (he carried Sonic in order to fight the boss in the air). Team Star Fox is near essential to Fox in the group battles. Yoshi was essential to Mario in the Yoshi's Island games. Epona is essential to Link when crossing large areas quickly. The King of Red Lions is essential to Toon Link in order to progress past Windfall in Wind Waker. Dedede's army is essential to him in the Kirby games to try and keep Kirby at bay through the levels (that goes for Bowser and Ganondorf as well). It doesn't matter if they're "essential" to the character. If they're an ally, they're not an extension of the character; they're a totally different character. This Pokemon Trainer will be fighting with Pokemon, those being the three he has in Brawl. That's the character represented in Smash. He is a summoner, but he can only summon the things he has. Mages in games can't use spells they haven't learned yet. Similarly, this trainer only has those three Pokemon to use. The fact that those are the three Pokemon he has in Brawl not only suggests, but proves that this Pokemon Trainer only has those three Pokemon. If he had more, why wouldn't he use them in battle? "Gameplay reasons?" What gameplay reasons? Even the events in Subspace show that he only has those three (he catches them throughout the events, and captures no other Pokemon). There's nothing in Smash or Pokemon to suggest that this particular, unnamed trainer (he's not Red; he's just a generic "Pokemon Trainer") has more Pokemon than he's shown having. However, he could potentially catch another Pokemon if he's fighting one (for instance, he could potentially catch with a Poke Ball if he was fighting him as his main opponent).

I also agree, Pokémon Trainer is only shown using those three Pokémon and unlike characters like Link and Samus who are combinations of all the versions of themselves Pokémon Trainer is not

EDIT: Well that didn't work

 

[mangamusicfan]

Probaly ganondorf

 

[Munomario777]

You don't get it, do you? All of those examples you mentioned were for just one specific situation. Pokémon are essential to their trainers in all situations.
And the Pokémon are summonable by means of standard equipment. Those examples were not summoned at all.
Again, we're observing canon. It doesn't matter if someone doesn't have it in Smash. The Ice Flower has been used over and over again by Mario. Does he have it in Smash? No. Does he get it here? Yes.

Why does it even matter if they're essential all the time? Usefulness doesn't dictate whether or not it counts. Even if it did matter, I'm not saying that the Trainer doesn't have Pokemon; I'm saying that he shouldn't have anything he isn't even hinted at having. He has his three Pokemon. They are essential to his fighting style. He's not being deprived of his essentials; he's just not being given anything he doesn't have.
There's no tool that can give you a Pokemon that you don't have or isn't in the area from thin air (computers, trading, etc. don't count, because they rely on having the Pokemon in your computer and another player respectively), if I'm not mistaken (correct me if I'm wrong, of course). The Pokemon Trainer isn't "summoning" per se; he's taking something (the Pokemon, resting in the Poke Ball) out of his bag and releasing it, like Link taking out the Hookshot. "Summoning" implies that the item/character/etc. in question is coming out of thin air, which, in Pokemon, isn't the case.
Ice Flowers are items, or tools used by Mario to change forms; they're an extension of his character. Pokemon are characters, or allies who help in the battle as separate, sentient entities; they're helpers. There's a difference. It's not whether or not the Trainer has it; it's whether or not he/she (the Pokemon) is a character-in-the-character.

Agreed

Glad we're on the same page.

Although the Link in Smash 4 looks like TP Link he has elements from the other Links, like the upward and downward thrusts from Zelda 2 or even minor things like the F-tilt being similar to one of the slashes from Ocarina of Time. Link in Sm4sh is not exclusively based on TP Link. As a matter of fact most of the characters in Smash are composites like Kirby or Samus

Well, the thing is, Link isn't using any Zelda 2/Ocarina of Time specific items. While it may very well be a reference to those games, it's nothing that Twilight Princess Link would be incapable of doing; they're just sword slashes. It would be different if, say, Link used the masks from Majora's Mask, or the Loftwing from Skyward Sword, or something else of that nature. Also, Zelda characters are a special case, since each game has a different Link/Zelda/etc. (some games share them, however; for instance, Ocarina of Time and Majora's Mask/Wind Waker and Phantom Hourglass share a Link), so it's a bit finicky when determining this. Characters like Kirby and Samus, on the other hand, are the same character throughout the games, so it's a given that they represent the whole series.

I also agree, Pokémon Trainer is only shown using those three Pokémon and unlike characters like Link and Samus who are combinations of all the versions of themselves Pokémon Trainer is not

Again, glad we're on the same page.

EDIT: Well that didn't work

Just remove the "/" from the beginning quotes and you should be good to go.

 

[ShadowLBlue]

You're free to work with composite Link if you want. That means anyone else is free to use composite Sonic, Samus, Mario, &c. I personally won't, though.

Ok, I didn't know if you were going to be like Munomario and come at out of nowhere for using


I think it's just being general, not specific.

Maybe, maybe not.

I agree. Ever since Twilight Princess was released, I took Link to be the same soul who was reincarnated and had no recollection of his past self. Each game presents Link with different equipment, just like each game in Metroid presents Samus with different upgrades. I'm only working with one incarnation for everyone while retaining innate abilities.


Interesting. But how do incarnations work for characters like Sonic or Samus who is the same guy/girl (minus Sonic Boom)? Are you just using their equipment from their latest series?

I don't take these as "wins". I'm just debating and having fun.

Me too, I'm just saying I'm not enjoying debating Mewtwo vs Samus anymore since all I was trying to do was convince you Mewtwo is a threat to Samus. I don't think Mewtwo is superior, especially after MetaRidley reminded me about the Dark Beam.

I think I'll make a post tackling composite Link while only using one incarnation of Samus.

Well I posted a paragraph page or two ago about the major abilities composite Link had that Twilight Princess doesn't if you want a quick reference, although I didn't include what each mask specifically does and forgot to mention the Four Swords ability.
Also, are we treating Wind Waker HD as official over the original? Because if so, Wind Waker HD retconned the magic armor so that it was Rupee powered instead of magic powered, which would mean Link would only have 84 minutes of being invincibility (and that's if never gets hit) rather than 3 days. Or should we treat the Magic armor in the original Wind Waker as a separate item? I assuming the former would be make more sense.

I'm not sure where to place Ganondorf, honestly. I was thinking of using Mega Man from whichever game the majority of his attacks in Super Smash Bros. 4 was based off of. Mega Man has four attacks from Mega Man 2 and Mega Man 3 in SSB4, so I thought I'd just go with the most recent incarnation: Mega Man 10. This incarnation doesn't seem to have as great of an arsenal.

Since Mega Man has a mix of moves from his various games, you might just have to break your one incarnation rule in this case. I honestly don't play Mega Man enough to say. I will say, even ignoring Ganondorf's invulnerability to death by non-holy weapons, Ganondorf was pretty adept at using his cape in OoT to deflect projectiles. Although I know some of Mega man's projectiles aren't really deflectable.

I'm thinking of putting Ganondorf up there on the list, though. I don't know who win between Dark Pit and Ganondorf. With Pit, I'd say he can defeat Ganondorf because of the arrows of light. His weapons originate from gods, which is why I also think he'd stand a chance against Ganondorf. He's slower than Sonic and Samus, though. So it could very well be Ganondorf is below Pit, but above Dark Pit.

Agree on Pit being above Ganondorf for all the reasons you said. And Dark Pit's weapons are pretty much the same as Pit's, so it seems like Dark Pit should also be able to win too. But I'm not certain.

I'm not sure Ganondorf is that impressive outside of his invulnerability to death by non-holy weapons. He's amazing at kingdom conquering but since a lot of the magic used in that is done off-screen (i.e. freezing the Zora's area, cursing the deku tree, making that almighty barrier in Twilight Princess), I'm not sure if he could really pull those off in battle.

Ganondorf Offensively:
-Can shoot moderate moving dark energy balls. However these can be reflected back at him, leaving him momentarily paralyzed.
-Talented swordsman (single and double) user.
-Basically used a move similar to his side B to kill a sage in TP.
-Despite his size, he can move very quickly when he wants to. Nothing like the might glacier he is in Smash.
-Can deflect/reflect projectiles with his cape.
Ganon Offensively:
-can use a trident or dual blades
-turn invisible
- bull rush you with massive power and decent speed
-Can shoot lightning out of his trident at more 4 semi close spots. (immobile during this)
-Briefly turn intangible while moving
-Throw his trident at you like a boomerang.
-Can also fire energy/fire balls, however like Ganondorf these can be reflected back at him, leaving him momentarily paralyzed.
-Can summon Fireballs that turn into Fire Keese that obviously attack you.
As stated elsewhere by me, neither form of Ganondof is immune to damage or effects of non-holy weapons, however only holy/blessed/light weapons have ever killed him.

Anyways, here's my Top 10, excluding Shulk and Ness because I don't know enough about them. I just recently got both of their games and don't want to spoil myself so that's why I refuse to google their powers.



Link with access to all of his equipment the spirit of the hero has had in each game.
As he only gets powers from cel-shaded games, he lacks Links medallions (although he still has fire and ice wands), Nayru's Love/Din's FIre/Faroe's wind, the indestructible version of the Hylian Shield in Skyward Sword, and the 3 day magic potion Chateau Romani.

Before anyone says she was beaten by Pit, that version of her was stated to be severely weakened, not to mention under mind control. This is assuming she gets access to the powers she grants/holds onto for Pit http://kidicarus.wikia.com/wiki/Powers
But honestly it's a toss-up in my opinion.


Optimal choice of any 6 Pokémon vs an opponent.


With access to all of his equipment.
I made a lengthy post on what he can do pages ago but the gist of it is he basically can spam a move that will heal him while attacking you and basically gets something like Shulk's vision or Spidey sense when below half health. Plus auto inflicting half of damage dealt on melee moves. Only reason he's not hire is that in terms of dodging and defense he's only human. A very strong one, but still just human.


Haven't figured out the rest. Although I suspect Ness belongs somewhere below Mewtwo or right after Marth.

 

[Munomario777]

Anyway, to sort out the issues of Link, Pokemon Trainer, etc., I think we should either:
- Agree on a universal set of conditions (incarnation(s) of Link, Pokemon for the Trainer, etc.)
-OR-
- Have multiple "versions" of each character, each with its own discussions, tier positions, etc. (for instance, a tier list could have Pokemon Trainer with all Pokemon higher than Pokemon Trainer with just his three from Brawl; same for the Links and such)
I think the latter would be more likely, since it doesn't look like everyone will agree on this sort of thing anytime soon.

 

[ShadowLBlue]

Response in quotes.

Since you brought the subject back up.
Right, you're not supporting an unpopular opinion. You have an unpopular belief on a factual subject (more on that after the next quote block).

There it goes again, you keep assuming your interpretation is correct, that Link in this game is strictly TP Link. I believe it's debatable.

Facts are not opinions. Facts can be proven one way or the other. Opinions vary from person to person. Examples of opinions:
"I like apples."
"My favorite game is Super Mario Galaxy."
"I like playing as Sonic in Smash."
"The Mona Lisa is the best looking painting, in my opinion."
Examples of facts:
"Apples are red."
"Super Mario Galaxy was released for the Wii."
"Sonic is the fastest runner in Smash."
"Leonarda da Vinci painted the Mona Lisa."
The subject of whether or not Link is from Twilight Princess falls into the latter category. It has a right or wrong (Is Link the Link from TP? Yes/no), and it isn't a preference thing (an opinion on the subject would be "I would like it if Link was the Skyward Sword incarnation," for example). Thus, it is a factual subject.

It baffles me that you can't admit this isn't a wrong or right issue. Yes he's designed physically like Twilight Link but he's never specifically called Twilight Link in any trophy.

Okay.
People saying it #1
People saying it #2
People saying it #3
People saying it #4
People saying it #5
All of this in addition to the evidence I've provided, of course.

I can find people saying the opposite, in this thread, in addition to the evidence I've provided. Nerdicon for one, Kirby Dragons as second example. Plus I saw some people in your first Link who didn' call him strictly Twilight Link. In your 2nd-4th examples were wikis. If we're using wiki's as a source, smash wiki says he has Navi for a taunt, therefore he strictly is NOT TP Link.
The 5th example says he has many properties of Twilight Princess. Doesn't exclude him having properties/items from other games.
You realize that unlike many heroes in this game, Link's look undergoes many notable changes unrelated to a system's graphics, so they have no choice but to design him after one game since there isn't a generic Link image, however that doesn't prevent there from being a composite Link for Smash.

Yes, Link is "the hero of the Zelda series," and is reincarnated in each game. However, the incarnation in Smash is that from Twilight Princess, and the character we see in-game and in the trophy. Thus, that is the Link we should use in this discussion. Also, the names of "Hero of Time/Twilight" are more obscure than just "Link," and the actual name of the character (such as calling Sonic Sonic instead of the Blue Blur). It is a bit of a gray area, but it can still be determined.
In other words, "the hero of the Zelda series" is always named "Link," and so is the trophy, so it fits. This version of Link is from Twilight Princess, and is also named "Link," so the trophy name fits. Link from Twilight Princess is a reincarnation of "the hero of the Zelda series," so the description fits. There's no contradictions here. It's sort of "neutral evidence," since it doesn't really contradict or prove one way or the other (unless, of course, you're seeing something I'm not, in which case, feel free to point it out).
But that's your interpretation of the trophy, once again it's subjective and not definitely right.
And yes, since the soul of Link is always the same, it's not hard to imagine the soul of Link was brought to our hypothetical smash fight with the best abilities/items of each Link. IDK if you watch Avatar, the last Airbender, but it would work similarly to that in this example.

Stuff about Pokémon Trainer.

I'm cool with only giving him access to those 3 Pokémon if everyone else is. It would make evaluating him simpler. I just disagree that you can definitely say he only has those 3 in the canon game he's from. There's no way of knowing. But for simplicity's sake let's just say you're right. Since we can't say he does have more than these 3, let's just assume he doesn't.

[\quote]

Anyway, to sort out the issues of Link, Pokemon Trainer, etc., I think we should either:
- Agree on a universal set of conditions (incarnation(s) of Link, Pokemon for the Trainer, etc.)
-OR-
- Have multiple "versions" of each character, each with its own discussions, tier positions, etc. (for instance, a tier list could have Pokemon Trainer with all Pokemon higher than Pokemon Trainer with just his three from Brawl; same for the Links and such)
I think the latter would be more likely, since it doesn't look like everyone will agree on this sort of thing anytime soon.

I'm cool with this. Link and Mario are really the only people who it's debatable whether they have stuff from all their games from (like I said earlier, I'll relent on Pokémon Trainer) so I don't think it would be tedious.

 

[Munomario777]

Response in quotes.

As I said in my previous post, I don't think we'll agree about Link anytime soon, so I'll just leave it at that. I am glad we're on the same page about Pokemon Trainer, though.

I'm cool with this. Link and Mario are really the only people who it's debatable whether they have stuff from all their games from (like I said earlier, I'll relent on Pokémon Trainer) so I don't think it would be tedious.

Again, glad we're on the same page. I think this system will cut down on some unnecessary debate and let us get to some different unnecessary debate.

 

[dragontamer]

I made a lengthy post on what he can do pages ago but the gist of it is he basically can spam a move that will heal him while attacking you and basically gets something like Shulk's vision or Spidey sense when below half health. Plus auto inflicting half of damage dealt on melee moves. Only reason he's not hire is that in terms of dodging and defense he's only human. A very strong one, but still just human.

Erm... not necessarily. Evil-form Robin is the Avatar of the Fell Dragon Grima (And the player). The only person who can defeat the Fell Dragon Grima is the Fell Dragon himself.

This implies that even "Good" Robin has the powers of Grima. Although the fact that Robin survives his time-travel fight with himself (erm... herself?), I guess some parts of the Fire Emblem: Awakening story can be seen as just shenanigans.

In any case, Evil-Robin has full immortality, rebirthing himself every 1000 years if slain (with exception if he enters a time-travel paradox and slays himself)

---------------

Damn near everyone's swords are in someway blessed. However, Ike's blade is uniquely holy and unholy. The twin blades of Ragnell and Alondite were Blessed by Ashira to defeat Yune in ancient past. By the end of Fire Emblem: Radiant Dawn, Yune would have likely additionally blessed Ragnell with unholy power to defeat Ashira.

The blessing of both Order and Chaos goddesses remains active on Ragnell by the final chapters. Therefore, both "good" and "evil" characters have much to fear from the doubly-blessed blade.

-------------

Tier 0: Literally Gods
/


`nuff said. These characters literally became gods or goddesses in their games.

Tier 1: Potential gods / goddesses
/

/

With the reincarnation cycle between these characters, they are clearly somehow divine or unholy. Gannondorf constantly tries to elevate himself to godhood, but is stopped by the other two consistently. The Triforce is likely symmetrically powerful, and all three characters can probably ascend to godhood.

Tier 2:Godslaying Heroes


/
(Captures Arceus)

Ike defeats Ashera. Shulk is yeah... Pit fights Paulatina. Dark Pit is on the same level. Pokemon Trainer captured Arceus.

Still, these characters are mortal, despite the fact that they've wielded power that challenged gods.

Special Mention:


Samus cannot be on this list, as her brand of sci-fi is parallel to the "Gods and goddesses" line of thought. Nonetheless, Samus has conducted under-lava fights against Ridley in Super Metroid, demonstrating strength in her Powersuit like no other.

 

[ShadowLBlue]

Anyway, to sort out the issues of Link, Pokemon Trainer, etc., I think we should either:
- Agree on a universal set of conditions (incarnation(s) of Link, Pokemon for the Trainer, etc.)
-OR-
- Have multiple "versions" of each character, each with its own discussions, tier positions, etc. (for instance, a tier list could have Pokemon Trainer with all Pokemon higher than Pokemon Trainer with just his three from Brawl; same for the Links and such)
I think the latter would be more likely, since it doesn't look like everyone will agree on this sort of thing anytime soon.

As I said in my previous post, I don't think we'll agree about Link anytime soon, so I'll just leave it at that. I am glad we're on the same page about Pokemon Trainer, though.

Again, glad we're on the same page. I think this system will cut down on some unnecessary debate and let us get to some different unnecessary debate.

Me too, debating who can beat who is much funnier. Now we all just need to establish the following about Pokémon Trainer
Can he be targeted?
Does he only get to use on at a time?
My personal opinion is he shouldn't be able to be hit and that he can only use on Pokémon at once.

Erm... not necessarily. Evil-form Robin is the Avatar of the Fell Dragon Grima (And the player). The only person who can defeat the Fell Dragon Grima is the Fell Dragon himself.

This implies that even "Good" Robin has the powers of Grima. Although the fact that Robin survives his time-travel fight with himself (erm... herself?), I guess some parts of the Fire Emblem: Awakening story can be seen as just shenanigans.

In any case, Evil-Robin has full immortality, rebirthing himself every 1000 years if slain (with exception if he enters a time-travel paradox and slays himself)

---------------

Damn near everyone's swords are in someway blessed. However, Ike's blade is uniquely holy and unholy. The twin blades of Ragnell and Alondite were Blessed by Ashira to defeat Yune in ancient past. By the end of Fire Emblem: Radiant Dawn, Yune would have likely additionally blessed Ragnell with unholy power to defeat Ashira.

The blessing of both Order and Chaos goddesses remains active on Ragnell by the final chapters. Therefore, both "good" and "evil" characters have much to fear from the doubly-blessed blade.

I meant just human in the sense of dodging and defense. All the characters I listed above him have superhuman ways of dodging or defending. And Robin in Smash is Good-Robin, not the Evil one. That Robin was killed at the end of Awakening.

Also, I'm no sure what your point is about Ike and his blade. Does the Ragnell's "unholy" power do extra damage to gods/goddesses/non-evil beings?

 

[Munomario777]

Me too, debating who can beat who is much funnier. Now we all just need to establish the following about Pokémon Trainer
Can he be targeted?
Does he only get to use on at a time?
My personal opinion is he shouldn't be able to be hit and that he can only use on Pokémon at once.

Yeah, it's much more fun to debate battles rather than semantics. As for the Trainer, seeing as how those two limits seem to be as a result of "Poke rules" (there's nothing keeping either of those from happening physically, after all, and battling does seem pretty civilized in the games), I'd say we just remove them and have him use his Pokemon to block attacks. I think that would make for an interesting sort of style for him; almost like some sort of tower defense-ish character.

 

[Luggy]

You know, a lot of you says that is generally the strongest character canonically, but we should also add something : his intelligence.
If we compare him to for example, the match would be extremely close. Why ? While Sonic is extremely strong, both in speed and power, he can be stopped easily by a more intelligent opponent. Mewtwo is the most intelligent being overall in Smash, with only being higher with omniscient powers.
So, if we confront Sonic against Mewtwo, who "would" won ? The highest possibility is Mewtwo as the winner, even in his basic form. Mewtwo has probably an higher Q.I than Eggman or Tails, has psychic powers like Silver (wich stops Sonic easily) and will always have the best plan to defeat an opponent. Remember, it's not because Sonic killed "gods" that he's suddenly the strongest, his intelligence is average, unlike characters like Mewtwo.

An other character that could be considered as a strong one is . While, yes, he's really strong, killing grec gods at a daily basis, we have to remember that he mostly got help from his goddess, . Without her, he loses to abilities : flying and knowing the weaknesses of his opponents. He's an angel, wich means that he doesn't have an omniscient mind (wich would basically make him invicible since he would know everything that will happen and generally everything), so has the average intelligence of a human being. So, again, a more intelligent character can beat him, the only catch is, Pit is already dead. Unless kills him or some stuff, Pit can't be killed by a living being. Unless we put the rule of the "God can be killed", wich means that Pit could be killed. In short, Pit is less threatening without .

Here's my personnal list of the strongest characters in Smash canonically :
: It's a grec goddess yes, but she seems to pretty much know everything. We don't know if she's at her true potential, both in Kid Icarus (where her mind is controled) or in Smash in general (saying "I won't hold back" in a trailer means nothing without showing all of the potential). But she seems to be overall the strongest character in my opinion.
: Why Mewtwo ? He's intelligent, has access to Mega-Evolutions to be stronger than god (in stats) and has enough power to be the strongest. He doesn't have the perfect defense, but when you're intelligent and have the power to actually kill a god, you pretty much who's the strongest.
: He can kill gods. Everyone explained why he's so good, I won't explain much.
: Explained many times, he's excellent with the help of his goddess and really good without her. However, I'm not sure if he could beat Link.
: The future never encountered the fantasic world of Kid Icarus or Zelda, but even the gods can't deal with a woman like that. In my opinion, she's the strongest human in the whole Nintendo universe.

I'll only do a top 5. You can continue your debates about "Who's the strongest".

 

[Munomario777]

You know, a lot of you says that is generally the strongest character canonically, but we should also add something : his intelligence.
If we compare him to for example, the match would be extremely close. Why ? While Sonic is extremely strong, both in speed and power, he can be stopped easily by a more intelligent opponent. Mewtwo is the most intelligent being overall in Smash, with only being higher with omniscient powers.
So, if we confront Sonic against Mewtwo, who "would" won ? The highest possibility is Mewtwo as the winner, even in his basic form. Mewtwo has probably an higher Q.I than Eggman or Tails, has psychic powers like Silver (wich stops Sonic easily) and will always have the best plan to defeat an opponent. Remember, it's not because Sonic killed "gods" that he's suddenly the strongest, his intelligence is average, unlike characters like Mewtwo.

When does Mewtwo demonstrate his intelligence? Also, just intelligence doesn't mean that they would automatically win; you need to have something to apply it to. Sonic could escape from the psychic powers with Chaos Control (he can use the power of the Emeralds even when trapped, as shown in Unleashed's opening), and he isn't dumb enough to not use them in a crisis (shown by, again, Unleashed's opening, as well as the scene in Sonic Adventure 2 when Eggman traps him in a capsule and he uses Chaos Control to escape). Good planning skills won't help you defeat an invincible, flying, time-freezing, teleporting, light speed hedgehog. Just sayin'.

 

[Etc_Guy]

You know, a lot of you says that is generally the strongest character canonically, but we should also add something : his intelligence.
If we compare him to for example, the match would be extremely close. Why ? While Sonic is extremely strong, both in speed and power, he can be stopped easily by a more intelligent opponent. Mewtwo is the most intelligent being overall in Smash, with only being higher with omniscient powers.
So, if we confront Sonic against Mewtwo, who "would" won ? The highest possibility is Mewtwo as the winner, even in his basic form. Mewtwo has probably an higher Q.I than Eggman or Tails, has psychic powers like Silver (wich stops Sonic easily) and will always have the best plan to defeat an opponent. Remember, it's not because Sonic killed "gods" that he's suddenly the strongest, his intelligence is average, unlike characters like Mewtwo.

An other character that could be considered as a strong one is . While, yes, he's really strong, killing grec gods at a daily basis, we have to remember that he mostly got help from his goddess, . Without her, he loses to abilities : flying and knowing the weaknesses of his opponents. He's an angel, wich means that he doesn't have an omniscient mind (wich would basically make him invicible since he would know everything that will happen and generally everything), so has the average intelligence of a human being. So, again, a more intelligent character can beat him, the only catch is, Pit is already dead. Unless kills him or some stuff, Pit can't be killed by a living being. Unless we put the rule of the "God can be killed", wich means that Pit could be killed. In short, Pit is less threatening without .

Here's my personnal list of the strongest characters in Smash canonically :
: It's a grec goddess yes, but she seems to pretty much know everything. We don't know if she's at her true potential, both in Kid Icarus (where her mind is controled) or in Smash in general (saying "I won't hold back" in a trailer means nothing without showing all of the potential). But she seems to be overall the strongest character in my opinion.
: Why Mewtwo ? He's intelligent, has access to Mega-Evolutions to be stronger than god (in stats) and has enough power to be the strongest. He doesn't have the perfect defense, but when you're intelligent and have the power to actually kill a god, you pretty much who's the strongest.
: He can kill gods. Everyone explained why he's so good, I won't explain much.
: Explained many times, he's excellent with the help of his goddess and really good without her. However, I'm not sure if he could beat Link.
: The future never encountered the fantasic world of Kid Icarus or Zelda, but even the gods can't deal with a woman like that. In my opinion, she's the strongest human in the whole Nintendo universe.

I'll only do a top 5. You can continue your debates about "Who's the strongest".

is the canonically strongest here. Not powerful but makes everyones' arms seem like sticks. King K. Rool and likely Bowser make Eggman have a I.Q of 10 instead of 300 if kompared since those two successfully kaptured the main protagonist multiple times.

The Kroc trap and fourice before Rare left, and the Koopa kaught and so kan get her own game.

Good planning skills won't help you defeat an invincible, flying, time-freezing, teleporting, light speed hedgehog. Just sayin'.

Unless you're greedier than Sonic, then being lazy won't help just make things worst.

 

[Luggy]

When does Mewtwo demonstrate his intelligence? Also, just intelligence doesn't mean that they would automatically win; you need to have something to apply it to. Sonic could escape from the psychic powers with Chaos Control (he can use the power of the Emeralds even when trapped, as shown in Unleashed's opening), and he isn't dumb enough to not use them in a crisis (shown by, again, Unleashed's opening, as well as the scene in Sonic Adventure 2 when Eggman traps him in a capsule and he uses Chaos Control to escape). Good planning skills won't help you defeat an invincible, flying, time-freezing, teleporting, light speed hedgehog. Just sayin'.

If he got his emeralds remember. Mewtwo could just stop him during his transformation by taking them away with psychic powers. Just look at how Silver stops him in Sonic '06 without emeralds : it's too easy. And it's only Silver here.
Oh yeah, also, the in Smash is from the Pokemon movie (with clones and all). He never showed his true power, wich is possibly really big if you think about it.

And still, even Super Sonic is not invicible : see in Sonic Unleashed how Eggman turned him out his super form with his device. Eggman could defeat Sonic easily if he wasn't f*ck*ng his plans by himself. The closest time he killed Sonic was in Sonic Adventure 2. If Sonic never had a "fake chaos emerald", he would have died there.

 

[Munomario777]

If he got his emeralds remember. Mewtwo could just stop him during his transformation by taking them away with psychic powers. Just look at how Silver stops him in Sonic '06 without emeralds : it's too easy. And it's only Silver here.

He can't do anything at all if time is frozen (via Chaos Control). Key word there being "without emeralds," which he does have in this case. Also, yeah, it's "only" Silver, who can summon a giant meteor of random things with his psychic powers (look up the end of his boss fight in Generations).

Oh yeah, also, the in Smash is from the Pokemon movie (with clones and all). He never showed his true power, which is possibly really big if you think about it.

What is his true power? I still haven't heard any examples of Mewtwo's intelligence.

And still, even Super Sonic is not invincible : see in Sonic Unleashed how Eggman turned him out his super form with his device. Eggman could defeat Sonic easily if he wasn't f*ck*ng his plans by himself. The closest time he killed Sonic was in Sonic Adventure 2. If Sonic never had a "fake chaos emerald", he would have died there.

He was being careless (as shown by the one-liners). In a heated battle setting he would be much more careful. The thing about that SA2 scene is that he did have the Emerald, which he does here as well (except seven of them with more energy each). Also, Eggman didn't foil his own plans in the classic games.

 

[Crystanium]

I will use the composite form of Link, meaning all incarnations of Link in one. However, while this will be a multi-incarnational version, there will be a few items that will not be used by composite Link because some application of reality will be applied. For example, if Link is wearing golden gauntlets, he's not going to be wearing titan's mitt, or even if he has a collection of rings, he only has ten fingers, so only ten rings will be used.

To be fair, I will attempt to make sure Link is wearing and using the best equipment. I trust golden gauntlets are superior to most of other Link's strength-increasing items, though I think power bracelets could possibly be worn as well. Anyone is free to check Zelda Wiki to look at the equipment Link possesses from each game. Below is my concept of composite Link.

Weapons
Golden Sword: While Link's standard blade is the master sword, the golden sword is the master sword that has been improved. According to the weapon strength found at Zelda Wiki, this is the most powerful sword in Link's possession (aside from the Fierce Deity sword with the inclusion of the energy disc, which is on equal footing; a few other items from other Zelda games also have 8 for their weapon strength).

Sacred Bow: This seems to be the most powerful in terms of weapon strength, although the fine bow allows Link to fire three arrows. I'll work with the sacred bow, though.

Fire, Ice, Light, Bomb, and Silver Arrows: I see no issue with Link carrying ordinary arrows and silver arrows, especially when the former can enchant three different types of elements. Ice arrows are capable of instantly solidifying (freezing) lava spewing from a volcano in The Wind Waker (TWW). I will be using the light arrows from TWW and silver arrows from A Link to the Past (ALttP), since both are capable of instantly killing a good number of Link's targets in one hit. These combined with the sacred bow should offer additional damage.

Bombs: It seems the most powerful bomb Link wields is in A Link Between Worlds (ALBW). It's known as big bomb flower. The issue with it seems to be that Link has to charge it or something and then detonate it. If any enemies come in contact with it, it'll blow up and can harm Link in the process. It can only be used once as well. Link would honestly be better off using bombs for bomb arrows.

Bombchu: I'm not sure what else to say, other than it being a mobile bomb. I'd say Link is still better off using bomb arrows.

Blast Ring: Bomb damage increases by 25%. This would be useful for bomb arrows. Increased damage would mean increased blast radius in my opinion.

Fire and Ice Rod: Let's face it, these two weapons don't get the representation they deserve as shown in Hyrule Warriors. The next best representation from a canonical source would likely be ALBW. The hottest part of the flame would probably be somewhere alone 3,026.85°C based on color temperature.

Boomerang: The Oracle series (OoX) seems to be stronger of the boomerangs.

Skull Hammer: I went with skull hammer because it doesn't need to be charged like the one in Phantom Hourglass (PH) to deal the same amount of damage. It seems ice arrows with addition to the skulll hammer can shatter Link's enemies.

Defense
Hylian Shield: I think the best shield in Link's disposal is the Hylian shield from Skyward Sword (SS). Sure, Link has different mirror shields, but the Hylian shield from SS is "an absurdly sturdy shield", according to Lanayru, and is "imbued with heroic power, making it completely indestructible". Considering this description did not come from the words of any individual in SS, I will treat it as face value. It's capable of withstanding heat, electricity, and curses, as well as blunt and sharp objects.

Red Mail: This is pretty much chain mail, and while it's supposed to reduce damage by 25%, this is only with respect to the covered parts of the body.

Red, Blue, and Green Rings: The red and blue ring combined grants 75% damage reduction. This is likely with respect to Link's armor. With these combined with red mail, that's a total of 100% damage reduction. In OoX, the red ring doubles Link sword attacks and the blue ring cuts enemy damage in half. The green ring increases damage by 50% and reduces damage by 25%.

Note: There are some rings, such as power rings and armor rings that I have not considered, simply because they do not benefit Link, but are disadvantageous for him.

Defensive Power: In Ocarina of Time (OoT) and Majora's Mask (MM), Link receives defensive power from the Great Fairy of Courage. This reduces damage by 50%. In PH, Link's defensive power is also enhanced, allowing Link to receive only 25% of enemy damage. This would total in 175% damage reduction.

Note: While these damage reductions may mean something within the games, these seem to only be applicable to what Link is wearing, which is typically chain mail. This means unexposed areas, such as his face and extremities are still vulnerable, which means chances are, enemy attacks capable of overriding chain mail disregard these defense enhancements. Based on in-game data, Link's heart containers represent both endurance and defense.

Heart Ring L-2: This allows Link to regenerate his heart containers, so I suppose it could be understood as a low-level regeneration, allowing Link to heal faster from ordinary wounds.

Green and Blue Holy Ring: The green kind prevents electrical attacks, while the blue holy ring protects Link from fire attacks from the River Zoras. River Zoras have fireballs that seem to switch between white and black in the center, while the outer part remains red. I'm not sure how I'm supposed to take this, since there isn't black fire. It would be a stretch, but sunspots are black and range between 2,700 - 4,200°C. But River Zoras aren't spitting sunspots. What makes a flame dangerous is the heat. If Link is harmed by lava when wearing this ring, then 800 K (526.85°C) would seem to work fine, that being the temperature of an ember.

Bombproof Ring: Link is immune to his own bombs. I'm not sure how powerful his bombs are compared to Samus', which can destroy sandstone, composite mineral with the hardness between 6.5 - 7 on Mohs scale of hardness, diamond having a hardness of 10. Either way, if it doesn't prevent damage from Samus' bombs, it will protect Link from his own.

Note: These are a total of 10 rings, which works pretty well, considering the other rings don't seem beneficial for Link in combat.

Magic Armor: I will be using magic armor for Link from TWW because it doesn't require any start-up time like Nayru's Love, nor does it hinder Link like the magic armor in TP when Link runs out of rupees.

Speed
Pegasus Boots: In ALttP, Link is able to outrun his arrows. This isn't possible in ALBW, only because there's lag. Link typically seems to use recurve bows, but the sacred bow has a design of its own. I'll then assume the speed is 200 mi/h. If Link can outrun his own arrows, then he's probably running around 400 mi/h.

 

[Nerdicon]

vs
This battle effectively boils down to a western quick draw, whoever acts the fastest wins here. If Sonic acts first he can freeze time and deliver an infinite velocity punch which would kill anyone who isn't invincible. If Mewtwo acts first he can psychic Sonic into blue mush. Reaction time is the key factor in this battle, and I'm pretty confident in saying Sonic has the faster reaction time. The thing I'm wondering about though is something else: does Sonic have to reach into his non-existent pockets to use chaos control? If not does he have to actually say "chaos control!" if he wants to freeze time? If either of those are true, Mewtwo would probably have enough time to win. I need some help here concerning Chaos Control but for now I will leave this unanswered
Winner: UNDECIDED

 

[Munomario777]

vs
This battle effectively boils down to a western quick draw, whoever acts the fastest wins here. If Sonic acts first he can freeze time and deliver an infinite velocity punch which would kill anyone who isn't invincible. If Mewtwo acts first he can psychic Sonic into blue mush. Reaction time is the key factor in this battle, and I'm pretty confident in saying Sonic has the faster reaction time. The thing I'm wondering about though is something else: does Sonic have to reach into his non-existent pockets to use chaos control? If not does he have to actually say "chaos control!" if he wants to freeze time? If either of those are true, Mewtwo would probably have enough time to win. I need some help here concerning Chaos Control but for now I will leave this unanswered
Winner: UNDECIDED

Well, it's never stated in the games (or any other media, AFAIK) that the usage of Chaos Control requires "Chaos Control!" to be said out loud, and Sonic isn't heard saying it when he uses it in Sonic Adventure 2 to escape the capsule, so I think it's safe to say that it's just for flair and/or for the teleportation to make sense to the player. As for the "pockets," Sonic can use the Emeralds to turn Super Sonic when he's in Eggman's grasp in Unleashed's opening, so it's safe to say that other Chaos Powers follow the same rules (plus, he can summon them from the distance when he turns Super Sonic in most games where he does so, including Smash, IIRC). Nice analysis, by the way.

 

[Crystanium]

Interesting. But how do incarnations work for characters like Sonic or Samus who is the same guy/girl (minus Sonic Boom)? Are you just using their equipment from their latest series?

I would use equipment from the latest games, but since Super Smash Bros. 4 is using characters from certain games like Mario being from Super Mario Sunshine, Samus being from Metroid: Other M, Link being from Twilight Princess, I'm using these incarnations. I was going to use Mega Man from Mega Man 3, since it seemed like most of his attacks in SSB4 were made up mostly from Mega Man 3, but both Mega Man 2 and Mega Man 3 make up the majority of the attacks. I decided I'd go with the most recent game: Mega Man 10.

Well I posted a paragraph page or two ago about the major abilities composite Link had that Twilight Princess doesn't if you want a quick reference, although I didn't include what each mask specifically does and forgot to mention the Four Swords ability.

Also, are we treating Wind Waker HD as official over the original? Because if so, Wind Waker HD retconned the magic armor so that it was Rupee powered instead of magic powered, which would mean Link would only have 84 minutes of being invincibility (and that's if never gets hit) rather than 3 days. Or should we treat the Magic armor in the original Wind Waker as a separate item? I assuming the former would be make more sense.

That's odd. I think to make Link at his best, I'm just sticking with magic armor using magic as it was originally in The Wind Waker.

Since Mega Man has a mix of moves from his various games, you might just have to break your one incarnation rule in this case. I honestly don't play Mega Man enough to say. I will say, even ignoring Ganondorf's invulnerability to death by non-holy weapons, Ganondorf was pretty adept at using his cape in OoT to deflect projectiles. Although I know some of Mega man's projectiles aren't really deflectable.

I'm not going to bother breaking that standard for Mega Man. I suppose an alternative would be choosing which incarnation is at his/her prime for each character. Also, I found something interesting about Samus' power beam. Chozo Ghosts are invulnerable to natural energies, such as electricity, ice, and fire, which means they're immune to Samus' other beam weapons with the exception of the power beam. If these are natural energies, then the power beam is either unnatural or supernatural. If unnatural, then it's artificial, as in something not made in nature. "Supernatural" is synonymous with "unnatural", but also "magic" or "mystical".

Agree on Pit being above Ganondorf for all the reasons you said. And Dark Pit's weapons are pretty much the same as Pit's, so it seems like Dark Pit should also be able to win too. But I'm not certain.

It looks like Dark Pit uses his silver bow as a standard weapon. I'm not sure if that means anything, though. Silver arrows harm Ganondorf, but it's not like Dark Pit is using silver arrows or even light arrows. He does have the abilities Pit has, though. It's just he's never used arrows of light like Pit.

I'm not sure Ganondorf is that impressive outside of his invulnerability to death by non-holy weapons. He's amazing at kingdom conquering but since a lot of the magic used in that is done off-screen (i.e. freezing the Zora's area, cursing the deku tree, making that almighty barrier in Twilight Princess), I'm not sure if he could really pull those off in battle.

We're not even sure if he'd use them in battle. These things could have happened within a span of time and not instantly. Ganondorf does deserve to be higher up on the tier list, though.

Technically, there are the Bryonnian gods in the Metroid series. They weren't used in Metroid Prime 3: Corruption, but I still like to think they're canon. Actually, the spirit of the mural can be considered the god of war in the Metroid series. There are other supernatural entities in the Metroid series, however, such as the Chozo ghosts and Phantoon, who is an ethereal space monster. In the Japanese manual, it describes Phantoon as "Mother Brain's consciousness given substance. The evil thought-waves surrounding her soul have turned into an evil spirit that has suspended the ship's operations".

I honestly don't take the word "god" into consideration, however. It's simply an abstract term. Superman can be regarded as a god, as he was destined to be in Smallville. When it comes to these other characters, I focus only on feats. I don't know anything about Robin and only a tiny bit about Shulk, but the rest, I know well enough to say they aren't above Samus.

You know, a lot of you says that is generally the strongest character canonically, but we should also add something : his intelligence.

From Scientific American's recent magazine, The Science of Genius, psychologists typically take the achievements of what people have done to define them as geniuses, rather than the score from an IQ test. Above 140 is considered "genius", but would you say George Washington—whose IQ was 118—was not a genius? Not everyone with a high IQ is actually smart, or at least rational. It's called dysrationalia.

If we compare him to for example, the match would be extremely close. Why ? While Sonic is extremely strong, both in speed and power, he can be stopped easily by a more intelligent opponent. Mewtwo is the most intelligent being overall in Smash, with only being higher with omniscient powers.

What has Mewtwo demonstrated in terms of intellect? It seems Eggman has a repertoire of achievements under his belt. Someone listed them in this thread, I believe. I think it might have been Munomario.

So, if we confront Sonic against Mewtwo, who "would" won ? The highest possibility is Mewtwo as the winner, even in his basic form. Mewtwo has probably an higher Q.I than Eggman or Tails, has psychic powers like Silver (wich stops Sonic easily) and will always have the best plan to defeat an opponent. Remember, it's not because Sonic killed "gods" that he's suddenly the strongest, his intelligence is average, unlike characters like Mewtwo.

I do agree that Mewtwo is likely more intelligent than Sonic. I think a lot of people are. Samus is at least a military genius.

An other character that could be considered as a strong one is . While, yes, he's really strong, killing grec gods at a daily basis, we have to remember that he mostly got help from his goddess, . Without her, he loses to abilities : flying and knowing the weaknesses of his opponents. He's an angel, wich means that he doesn't have an omniscient mind (wich would basically make him invicible since he would know everything that will happen and generally everything), so has the average intelligence of a human being. So, again, a more intelligent character can beat him, the only catch is, Pit is already dead. Unless kills him or some stuff, Pit can't be killed by a living being. Unless we put the rule of the "God can be killed", wich means that Pit could be killed. In short, Pit is less threatening without .

While Pit is granted abilities from Palutena, Ganondorf is equally granted abilities by a goddess, as is Link and Zelda. I even believe some characters from Fire Emblem are granted some form of divine assistance. It's unfortunate that Pit was given a more silly demeanor in Kid Icarus: Uprising. He's the captain of Palutena's army. I would have hoped that he also had some form of military intellect. (Well, he does, I'm sure, and his personality shouldn't be mutually exclusive.)

: It's a grec goddess yes, but she seems to pretty much know everything. We don't know if she's at her true potential, both in Kid Icarus (where her mind is controled) or in Smash in general (saying "I won't hold back" in a trailer means nothing without showing all of the potential). But she seems to be overall the strongest character in my opinion.

It's "Greek". "Grecian" would be another word. I'd say what Pit has demonstrated, Palutena can do as well. Omniscience isn't something I recall Palutena claiming to have. If we assumed she was omniscient, it's not like knowing that Samus' next attack being a weapon traveling at light speed or a bomb producing 14+ tons of TNT would prevent it from hitting her.

: Why Mewtwo ? He's intelligent, has access to Mega-Evolutions to be stronger than god (in stats) and has enough power to be the strongest. He doesn't have the perfect defense, but when you're intelligent and have the power to actually kill a god, you pretty much who's the strongest.

Stats contradict the Pokedex. As I said before, Pidgeot flies Mach 2, Dragonite flies Mach 2.02. Stats say Pidgeot is faster than Dragonite. I haven't seen anything in Mewtwo's move set that would give him a chance at defeating Samus.

: He can kill gods. Everyone explained why he's so good, I won't explain much.

It's just his speed, but I'm still wondering how he'll harm Samus with the light speed dash or Chaos Control.

: Explained many times, he's excellent with the help of his goddess and really good without her. However, I'm not sure if he could beat Link.

He can most definitely defeat Link.

 

[Munomario777]

I would use equipment from the latest games, but since Super Smash Bros. 4 is using characters from certain games like Mario being from Super Mario Sunshine, Samus being from Metroid: Other M, Link being from Twilight Princess, I'm using these incarnations. I was going to use Mega Man from Mega Man 3, since it seemed like most of his attacks in SSB4 were made up mostly from Mega Man 3, but both Mega Man 2 and Mega Man 3 make up the majority of the attacks. I decided I'd go with the most recent game: Mega Man 10.

As I've said before, the whole "incarnation" debate for Link stems from the fact that each game has a different protagonist named "Link" (granted, the spirit is reincarnated in each Link, but they're still different entities). This wouldn't apply to, say, Mario, since it's the same character for each game (Mario from Mario Sunshine = Mario from Mario World = Mario from Mario Kart = etc., barring Paper Mario and the like). Zelda's unusual canon makes the Zelda characters a special case in this regard.

From Scientific American's recent magazine, The Science of Genius, psychologists typically take the achievements of what people have done to define them as geniuses, rather than the score from an IQ test. Above 140 is considered "genius", but would you say George Washington—whose IQ was 118—was not a genius? Not everyone with a high IQ is actually smart, or at least rational. It's called dysrationalia.

Interesting point.

What has Mewtwo demonstrated in terms of intellect? It seems Eggman has a repertoire of achievements under his belt. Someone listed them in this thread, I believe. I think it might have been Munomario.

Yes, that was me.

I recommend you take a look at Eggman's history in the Sonic series. He has an IQ of 300, he's released more god monsters than you can shake a chili dog at, he's made entire space fleets, he's a master of manipulation, he's enslaved entire planets, and he's got an army of robots at his command (he also had mind control ready in Colors; Sonic just foiled him before he could do anything with it).

I do agree that Mewtwo is likely more intelligent than Sonic. I think a lot of people are. Samus is at least a military genius.

Agreed, but he's at least got average intelligence.

It's just his speed, but I'm still wondering how he'll harm Samus with the light speed dash or Chaos Control.

The Light Speed Dash would apply a huge amount of force (force equals mass times acceleration; Sonic's mass times light speed acceleration equals a huge amount of force), and he could freeze time with Chaos Control to prevent Samus from attacking, defending, or evading, and deliver a blow of infinite speed (as Nerdicon determined, due to the fact that it's moving from one place to the other in literally no time at all, since time is frozen). I don't think Samus has ever experienced that kind of force in Metroid.

 

[Crystanium]

The Light Speed Dash would apply a huge amount of force (force equals mass times acceleration; Sonic's mass times light speed acceleration equals a huge amount of force), and he could freeze time with Chaos Control to prevent Samus from attacking, defending, or evading, and deliver a blow of infinite speed (as Nerdicon determined, due to the fact that it's moving from one place to the other in literally no time at all, since time is frozen). I don't think Samus has ever experienced that kind of force in Metroid.

Actually, the net force would be zero, so it wouldn't do anything to Samus. The application of net force is only applicable to non-relativistic relationships.

 

[Nerdicon]

The Light Speed Dash would apply a huge amount of force (force equals mass times acceleration; Sonic's mass times light speed acceleration equals a huge amount of force), and he could freeze time with Chaos Control to prevent Samus from attacking, defending, or evading, and deliver a blow of infinite speed (as Nerdicon determined, due to the fact that it's moving from one place to the other in literally no time at all, since time is frozen). I don't think Samus has ever experienced that kind of force in Metroid.

Yeah, an attack with infinite velocity is pretty much instakill against most of the characters. If Sonic tried this on Ganon though...well every action has an equal and opposite reaction and I'm not sure Sonic is quite bright enough to realize Ganon's weakness until it's too late. Same with Link and Stone kirby

 

[Nerdicon]

Actually, the net force would be zero, so it wouldn't do anything to Samus. The application of net force is only applicable to non-relativistic relationships.

Well I don't know about that (I'm operating on high school science over here) but if I did my math right the force applied by Sonic would be...incalculable because divide by 0. To be fair something like this is impossible in our reality for something to have infinite acceleration going from 0 to Mach 1 in 0 seconds so to know the actual amount of force being applied is physically impossible. The force of Sonic's punch literally cannot be comprehended. So for simplicity's sake it would be best to just say the punch has infinite force.

 

[Saloah]

The Super Smash Bros. Games balances out nintendo characters, but which one is the strongest? In my opinion, I'd say it's Mewtwo, with Pit coming at a close second. What do you guys think?

Palutena is literally a god, so I would say it's her.

 

[Nerdicon]

Palutena is literally a god, so I would say it's her.

Oh boy, you have no idea what goes down on this thread. Grab some popcorn and a calculator, because we go deep for our answers
Also welcome to Smashboards!

 

[Crystanium]

Well I don't know about that (I'm operating on high school science over here) but if I did my math right the force applied by Sonic would be...incalculable because divide by 0. To be fair something like this is impossible in our reality for something to have infinite acceleration going from 0 to Mach 1 in 0 seconds so to know the actual amount of force being applied is physically impossible. The force of Sonic's punch literally cannot be comprehended. So for simplicity's sake it would be best to just say the punch has infinite force.

Relativistic momentum is p = mv / sqrt(1 - (v^2 / c^2). Sonic is 35 kg., according to Sonic Wikia. He'll be traveling 99% the speed of light here. This would mean the relativistic momentum is 1.055 * 10^9, or 118,587.275 tons of force. So, yeah, everyone dies.

 

[ShadowLBlue]

Yeah, it's much more fun to debate battles rather than semantics. As for the Trainer, seeing as how those two limits seem to be as a result of "Poke rules" (there's nothing keeping either of those from happening physically, after all, and battling does seem pretty civilized in the games), I'd say we just remove them and have him use his Pokemon to block attacks. I think that would make for an interesting sort of style for him; almost like some sort of tower defense-ish character.

Hmmm, very interesting. Some characters couldn't survive taking on 3 Pokémon at once that otherwise would be ok, but any teleporting character won't have much issue sneaking behind his defenses and killing him. I'm cool with either. I agree they do seem to pretty specific as Poke rules, so going with that's cool with me.

@Dryn

Good list, but there are a few more items he needs:

Four Swords: Can split into 4 version of his self that are all fully functioning Links. No divided health or defense here.

Chateau Romani: 3 days of infinite magic. Nuff said. Combine this with the following:

Magic Cape: Lets him be invisible and intangible.

Cane of Byrna: ANOTHER item giving him invulnerability, albeit without the invisibility benefit of the Magic Cape. However he gets a ring of magic that damages nearby enemies. Other equipment, sword beam, and spin attack can't be used.

Bombos Medallion: "summons mighty pillars of fire in a circle around Link, and then releases explosive force on all enemies in sight, effectively destroying almost any common enemy."

Quake Medallion: Causes deadly earthquake

Ether Medallion: Freezes all enemies on screen, although I don't remember if it affected bosses. Likely not.

That's odd. I think to make Link at his best, I'm just sticking with magic armor using magic as it was originally in The Wind Waker.

Cool.


I'm not going to bother breaking that standard for Mega Man. I suppose an alternative would be choosing which incarnation is at his/her prime for each character. Also, I found something interesting about Samus' power beam. Chozo Ghosts are invulnerable to natural energies, such as electricity, ice, and fire, which means they're immune to Samus' other beam weapons with the exception of the power beam. If these are natural energies, then the power beam is either unnatural or supernatural. If unnatural, then it's artificial, as in something not made in nature. "Supernatural" is synonymous with "unnatural", but also "magic" or "mystical".

Interesting. I wonder if that means it can also be used to kill Ganon and affect some characters when they use invincibility granting items.

It looks like Dark Pit uses his silver bow as a standard weapon. I'm not sure if that means anything, though. Silver arrows harm Ganondorf, but it's not like Dark Pit is using silver arrows or even light arrows. He does have the abilities Pit has, though. It's just he's never used arrows of light like Pit.

Yes, because Pit's bow was specifically made by Palutena. Dark Pit's wasn't. So he probably lacks a weapon that can kill him. Because like you said I don't think the silver arrows Link has are the same as Dark Pits.



We're not even sure if he'd use them in battle. These things could have happened within a span of time and not instantly. Ganondorf does deserve to be higher up on the tier list, though.



Technically, there are the Bryonnian gods in the Metroid series. They weren't used in Metroid Prime 3: Corruption, but I still like to think they're canon. Actually, the spirit of the mural can be considered the god of war in the Metroid series. There are other supernatural entities in the Metroid series, however, such as the Chozo ghosts and Phantoon, who is an ethereal space monster. In the Japanese manual, it describes Phantoon as "Mother Brain's consciousness given substance. The evil thought-waves surrounding her soul have turned into an evil spirit that has suspended the ship's operations".

I honestly don't take the word "god" into consideration, however. It's simply an abstract term. Superman can be regarded as a god, as he was destined to be in Smallville. When it comes to these other characters, I focus only on feats. I don't know anything about Robin and only a tiny bit about Shulk, but the rest, I know well enough to say they aren't above Samus.

You didn't put a quote here so I assume this is in response to Luggy since I my tier list has Samus over Robin.



From Scientific American's recent magazine, The Science of Genius, psychologists typically take the achievements of what people have done to define them as geniuses, rather than the score from an IQ test. Above 140 is considered "genius", but would you say George Washington—whose IQ was 118—was not a genius? Not everyone with a high IQ is actually smart, or at least rational. It's called dysrationalia.

Just wanted to add that even if they were geniuses, doesn't mean they have the reflexes or ability to keep up in a fight. Otherwise Tails wouldn't need Sonic's help since his IQ is 300 or 400.

It's "Greek". "Grecian" would be another word. I'd say what Pit has demonstrated, Palutena can do as well. Omniscience isn't something I recall Palutena claiming to have. If we assumed she was omniscient, it's not like knowing that Samus' next attack being a weapon traveling at light speed or a bomb producing 14+ tons of TNT would prevent it from hitting her.

She's not omniscient, although she has a very wide range of knowledge.

He can most definitely defeat Link

How does he touch Link when he's intangible for 3 days?.

Tier 0: Literally Gods
/

Not a god, was the host for one. Evil Robin, who died in the ending of the game was a god. Good Robin is normal, especially after either killing or sealing Grima.

Relativistic momentum is p = mv / sqrt(1 - (v^2 / c^2). Sonic is 35 kg., according to Sonic Wikia. He'll be traveling 99% the speed of light here. This would mean the relativistic momentum is 1.055 * 10^9, or 118,587.275 tons of force. So, yeah, everyone dies.

Then why did you say earlier the damage is 0?

Also, it would take a lot of them to kill Samus (definitely more time than he chaos control grant him), but he does have Sonic wind.

And there have been games where Super Sonic lost the chaos emeralds due to a sneak attack (I believe Sonic 3), but I'm not sure how that really works.

 

[Crystanium]

Good list, but there are a few more items he needs:

Four Swords: Can split into 4 version of his self that are all fully functioning Links. No divided health or defense here.

Chateau Romani: 3 days of infinite magic. Nuff said. Combine this with the following:

Magic Cape: Lets him be invisible and intangible.

Cane of Byrna: ANOTHER item giving him invulnerability, albeit without the invisibility benefit of the Magic Cape. However he gets a ring of magic that damages nearby enemies. Other equipment, sword beam, and spin attack can't be used.

Bombos Medallion: "summons mighty pillars of fire in a circle around Link, and then releases explosive force on all enemies in sight, effectively destroying almost any common enemy."

Quake Medallion: Causes deadly earthquake

Ether Medallion: Freezes all enemies on screen, although I don't remember if it affected bosses. Likely not.

I would have added some more, such as golden gauntlets, but I got to that point where I just wanted to post it instead of continuing. I didn't have Link using the four swords because he's only wielding one sword and one shield.

How does he touch Link when he's intangible for 3 days?.

Why would Link wear magic cape for three days? Why wouldn't he wear magic armor for three days? Say Link uses magic cape and then Pit uses transparency. What will Link think? Will he think it's a good idea to not use his magic cape? Then using auto-reticle or even weak point reticle in conjunction with instant death attack would definitely be an issue for Link.

Then why did you say earlier the damage is 0?

Because I wasn't working with relativistic mass.

Also, it would take a lot of them to kill Samus (definitely more time than he chaos control grant him), but he does have Sonic wind.

Sure, if I allow impact force into the Metroidverse. This would mean if Samus is flying supersonic speed, and if I just went with Mach 1.2, then using the equation for kinetic energy, Samus would produce 7,623,655.2 newton meters. Crashing into something with an impact distance of say 3/4 of an inch, or 0.019 meters, then she'll experience 400,187,007.68 newtons, or 44,983 tons of force. However, if I went with Mach 2, then Sonic wouldn't be able to harm Samus, who would then be able to withstand 124,952.83 tons of force.

 

[Munomario777]

Yeah, an attack with infinite velocity is pretty much instakill against most of the characters. If Sonic tried this on Ganon though...well every action has an equal and opposite reaction and I'm not sure Sonic is quite bright enough to realize Ganon's weakness until it's too late. Same with Link and Stone kirby

Well, he's able to smash through multiple robots with his fist without flinching, so it shouldn't hurt too much. Unless there's something I'm missing here?

Hmmm, very interesting. Some characters couldn't survive taking on 3 Pokémon at once that otherwise would be ok, but any teleporting character won't have much issue sneaking behind his defenses and killing him. I'm cool with either. I agree they do seem to pretty specific as Poke rules, so going with that's cool with me.

Sounds good.

Also, it would take a lot of them to kill Samus (definitely more time than he chaos control grant him), but he does have Sonic wind.

Well, there's no explicit time limit for Chaos Control stated in the games, AFAIK.

And there have been games where Super Sonic lost the chaos emeralds due to a sneak attack (I believe Sonic 3), but I'm not sure how that really works.

That's mostly because he was being careless; the opening to Sonic 3 was more of a joyride than an intense battle scene, where he would naturally be more alert.

Sure, if I allow impact force into the Metroidverse. This would mean if Samus is flying supersonic speed, and if I just went with Mach 1.2, then using the equation for kinetic energy, Samus would produce 7,623,655.2 newton meters. Crashing into something with an impact distance of say 3/4 of an inch, or 0.019 meters, then she'll experience 400,187,007.68 newtons, or 44,983 tons of force. However, if I went with Mach 2, then Sonic wouldn't be able to harm Samus, who would then be able to withstand 124,952.83 tons of force.

Well, I calculated that, going from Mach 2 (even though I don't think she can necessarily go that fast to begin with, but whatever) to a standstill in .1 seconds (I used this for both calculations, since zero seconds obviously wouldn't work), Samus with the Power Suit on (weighing approximately 318 pounds) would experience approximately 121.62 tons of force. I also calculated that Sonic, at 19 pounds, ramming into someone at 99% of the speed of light, would deal around 12009971.75 tons of force. Of course, let me know if I'm missing something/made a mistake.
(I didn't take into account smaller impact surfaces, since Sonic has impact forces that are smaller than 3/4 of an inch anyway, namely his spikes on the back of his head.)

 

[Nerdicon]

Well, he's able to smash through multiple robots with his fist without flinching, so it shouldn't hurt too much. Unless there's something I'm missing here?

Yeah, the difference here would be that Sonic would literally be doing nothing to the opponent (except for Link and Ganondorf who would get flung across the planet by the knockback) so the rebounding force would be the equivalent of Sonic attacking himself in the same fashion which I'm pretty sure we've established would kill anyone

Well, there's no explicit time limit for Chaos Control stated in the games, AFAIK

In Sonic Adventure 2 and Sonic Heroes there was a 10 second limit.

Well, I calculated that, going from Mach 2 (even though I don't think she can necessarily go that fast to begin with, but whatever) to a standstill in .1 seconds (I used this for both calculations, since zero seconds obviously wouldn't work), Samus with the Power Suit on (weighing approximately 318 pounds) would experience approximately 121.62 tons of force. I also calculated that Sonic, at 19 pounds, ramming into someone at 99% of the speed of light, would deal around 12009971.75 tons of force. Of course, let me know if I'm missing something/made a mistake.
(I didn't take into account smaller impact surfaces, since Sonic has impact forces that are smaller than 3/4 of an inch anyway, namely his spikes on the back of his head.)

Sonic actually has a much more effective method of focusing the force he generates in the form of Excalibur from THAT game

 

[Munomario777]

Yeah, the difference here would be that Sonic would literally be doing nothing to the opponent (except for Link and Ganondorf who would get flung across the planet by the knockback) so the rebounding force would be the equivalent of Sonic attacking himself in the same fashion which I'm pretty sure we've established would kill anyone

Why wouldn't the attack cause any damage to the opponent?

In Sonic Adventure 2 and Sonic Heroes there was a 10 second limit.

The Adventure 2 instance was in a bonus multiplayer mode, and it was for balance reasons (the race would be too easy if the other player was frozen for the whole thing). Likewise, in Heroes, it was due to a gameplay mechanic that only appeared in that one game, and was applied so that doors and the like wouldn't be frozen forever if you happened to use the Team Blast while one was opening. It's also worth noting that the same meter in Heroes is a time limit for Sonic's Light Speed Attack usage (when the meter runs out, he can't use it anymore), yet that's clearly not a canonical limit for the attack.

Sonic actually has a much more effective method of focusing the force he generates in the form of Excalibur from THAT game

Very true, but I was only using what he has naturally (besides, Super Sonic can't wield Excalibur, and Excalibur Sonic isn't invincible like Super Sonic is).

 

[Nerdicon]

Why wouldn't the attack cause any damage to the opponent?

They'd be invincible (Link with Magic Armor, Kirby as Stone, Gan0ndorf being himself

Very true, but I was only using what he has naturally (besides, Super Sonic can't wield Excalibur, and Excalibur Sonic isn't invincible like Super Sonic is).

How do you know that, there weren't any chaos emeralds in THAT game, and Sonic doesn't need to be Super Sonic to freeze time, he could also use Caliburn the same way