Who's Canonically the Strongest Character in Smash?

[monzer]

That doesn't feature MK and DDD's Warp Stars, does it?

What make thier warp stars any different

You have yet to prove this.

As I said, check the damage stats on the wiki

The fact that he can is non-canon

Why is it not canon? Kirby has done even greater feats in the animie, which is being used as a canon source.

Prove that it will make Mewtwo faster than Sonic. I've found that the move can increase the user's attack speed by about nine times the original amount.

Trick room swaps the speeds, Mewtwo will be as fast as Sonic and Sonic will be as fast as Mewtwo.

Prove that their attack power is the same.

Damage stats

What canonical source states this

It's not canon, but Shrek is being voted in as a joke character. People arnt voting for movie Shrek, they're voting for the meme Shrek.

Kirby's health is not his strong point

Surviving attacks that break planets

When does he ride a Warp Star, and how fast has it gone?

Return to Dreamland. All warp stars are the same.

That's not durability.

He withstands attacks that break planets

 

[Munomario777]

What make thier warp stars any different

What makes them the same?

As I said, check the damage stats on the wiki

What attacks of Kirby's are Dedede's more powerful than, and by what amount?

Why is it not canon? Kirby has done even greater feats in the animie, which is being used as a canon source.

We agreed not to use non-story minigames a while back.

Trick room swaps the speeds, Mewtwo will be as fast as Sonic and Sonic will be as fast as Mewtwo.

Trick Room has only been shown to allow a Pokemon to move at nine times its regular speed. Saying that it could do anything more is extrapolation.

Damage stats

Provide them.

It's not canon, but Shrek is being voted in as a joke character. People arnt voting for movie Shrek, they're voting for the meme Shrek.

Isn't the only difference that the former is canon, and the latter is non-canon?

Surviving attacks that break planets

Such as?

Return to Dreamland. All warp stars are the same.

Prove it.

He withstands attacks that break planets

Prove it.

 

[DjinnandTonic]

One thing worth mentioning about Megaton Punch is that it requires Kirby to precisely concentrate on specific point and focus his charged 'punch' energy into it. So if you make the assumption that Fighter Kirby -can- use it offensively, it's still unlikely to be useful due to how much time it takes. Any target that can -move- isn't going to have to worry about it.

Now Kirby definitely -does- have methods of stopping characters from moving, so it might be worth considering.

But it definitely doesn't seem like a solid argument to base Dedede's and MetaKnight's durability on.

 

[monzer]

@ Munomario777
@ DjinnandTonic

so if megaton punch isn't canon, there was still the time in the animie when he threw a monster 8 times his size around the sun and back. That requires much more strength than even cracking a planet.

Why would warp stars not be the same? In the games there are no differences between the warp stars owned by the characters. A warp star is a warp star.

MK is basically sword Kirby with exrta powers. DDD is upgraded hammer Kirby
BD is basically just spear Kirby, not as strong as the other Kirby characters, but still strong.

Trick room swaps the characters' speeds, that's how the move works, I don't know where you got the 9 times thing from but that is incorrect. The description of the move even says that the speeds swap.

 

[Munomario777]

@ Munomario777
@ DjinnandTonic

so if megaton punch isn't canon, there was still the time in the animie when he threw a monster 8 times his size around the sun and back. That requires much more strength than even cracking a planet.

Provide a video, then.

Why would warp stars not be the same? In the games there are no differences between the warp stars owned by the characters. A warp star is a warp star.

A car is a car, but they can vary vastly in top speed etc.

MK is basically sword Kirby with exrta powers. DDD is upgraded hammer Kirby
BD is basically just spear Kirby, not as strong as the other Kirby characters, but still strong.

Sword, Spear, and Hammer Kirby are nothing special.

Trick room swaps the characters' speeds, that's how the move works, I don't know where you got the 9 times thing from but that is incorrect. The description of the move even says that the speeds swap.

Trick Room has only been shown to "swap" the speeds of Pokemon when there's approximately a 9x difference between them. I got this from an example using a Slowpoke and Mega Mewtwo. To say that it could go beyond what it's been shown to do is extrapolation.

 

[monzer]

Provide a video, then.

A car is a car, but they can vary vastly in top speed etc.

Lets just agree to disagree on the whole warp star thing.

Sword, Spear, and Hammer Kirby are nothing special.

Hammer is considered to be one of the best abilities Kirby can have. Sword and Spear, while not as good as hammer, are still very strong as shown by Kirby's strength.

Trick Room has only been shown to "swap" the speeds of Pokemon when there's approximately a 9x difference between them. I got this from an example using a Slowpoke and Mega Mewtwo. To say that it could go beyond what it's been shown to do is extrapolation.

Bulbapedia, Seribii, and Smogon all disagree.

 

[Bennext]

In terms of physical strength have some huge muscles because they are trained fighters.
and some other characters technically have super strength, and I don't know if that counts or not.

Apes are one of the strongest creatures and in game is said to, "have arms like tree trunks". But in the Donkey Kong games there is someone stronger, Rambi the Rhinoceros, can plow through enemies that even has hard times with.

literally fought a castle and won. With arms like an elephant is the strongest in physical strength.
Unless has the Tri-force of strength and is in pig form.

 

[monzer]

In terms of physical strength have some huge muscles because they are trained fighters.
and some other characters technically have super strength, and I don't know if that counts or not.

Apes are one of the strongest creatures and in game is said to, "have arms like tree trunks". But in the Donkey Kong games there is someone stronger, Rambi the Rhinoceros, can plow through enemies that even has hard times with.

literally fought a castle and won. With arms like an elephant is the strongest in physical strength.
Unless has the Tri-force of strength and is in pig form.

The strongest physically would be Buster sword Shulk(an explanatiion why would involve huge spoilers to the game).
Then would be the Kirby characters because Kirby threw a monster on a frying pan around the sun and back.
After the Kirby characters would be normal form Shulk.
Then would be Mewtwo because he can dish out more damage than gods.

It's also important to not that this isn't only going by physical stregth. Sonic, while not very strong compared to the other characters I mentioned, is extremely fast to make up for his strength.

 

[Munomario777]

When has this been applied to a direct attack?

Lets just agree to disagree on the whole warp star thing.

M'kay.

Hammer is considered to be one of the best abilities Kirby can have.

Why is that?

Sword and Spear, while not as good as hammer, are still very strong as shown by Kirby's strength.

Which MK and BD do not possess.

Bulbapedia, Seribii, and Smogon all disagree.

I don't see anything that disproves my argument. What I did find, though, were a couple of interesting things regarding priority (which move comes before the other) and Trick Room.

• Trick Room only affects the Speed stat of individual Pokemon, not the priority of the move itself. Many of Sonic's attacks are fast, so they don't get countered.
• Trick Room's own priority is a pathetic -7. That's the lowest ranking in the series, meaning that every other move will come out before Trick Room does. If a "low speed" attack still comes out before Trick Room does, I think it's safe to assume that Sonic will reach Mewtwo far before he even gets the chance to activate the technique.

 

[monzer]

When has this been applied to a direct attack?

Im not sure whjat you mean here. This is evidence that Kirby is strong enough to throw something around the sun and back. Note that the monster was around Sonic's size.

Why is that?

Hammer deals the most damage than any other attack in the game, and attacks pretty fast. His down attack also gives him some frames of invincibility.

Which MK and BD do not possess.

As iv'e said before, MK and BD do the same amount of damage as sword and spear Kirby, showing they are as strong as him.

I don't see anything that disproves my argument. What I did find, though, were a couple of interesting things regarding priority (which move comes before the other) and Trick Room.

• Trick Room only affects the Speed stat of individual Pokemon, not the priority of the move itself. Many of Sonic's attacks are fast, so they don't get countered.
• Trick Room's own priority is a pathetic -7. That's the lowest ranking in the series, meaning that every other move will come out before Trick Room does. If a "low speed" attack still comes out before Trick Room does, I think it's safe to assume that Sonic will reach Mewtwo far before he even gets the chance to activate the technique.

Having low priority means nothing, Sonic will attack first, Mewtwo will hang on with the focus sash and use trick room. Next turn Mewtwo will use mach punch, a high priority move in Pokemon, and do serious damage and may even kill Sonic.

Also, the fire emblem characters, while not top tier themselves, would be able to kill Sonic because of the counter ability, which reflects half of the damage delivered back to the attacker. I don't think Sonic would be able to stand even half the force of his attacks at full speed.

 

[Munomario777]

Im not sure whjat you mean here. This is evidence that Kirby is strong enough to throw something around the sun and back.

When did Kirby use this force to attack MK or DDD?

Note that the monster was around Sonic's size.

This has nothing to do with Sonic.

Hammer deals the most damage than any other attack in the game, and attacks pretty fast. His down attack also gives him some frames of invincibility.

That may be true in game, but Jet Kirby's Mach 5 speeds make it a far better option.

As iv'e said before, MK and BD do the same amount of damage as sword and spear Kirby, showing they are as strong as him.

How much force do the attacks produce?

Having low priority means nothing, Sonic will attack first, Mewtwo will hang on with the focus sash and use trick room. Next turn Mewtwo will use mach punch, a high priority move in Pokemon, and do serious damage and may even kill Sonic.

Sonic is fast enough to attack twice before Mewtwo moves a muscle. Has Focus Sash been shown to resist the amount of force that Sonic will produce?

Also, the fire emblem characters, while not top tier themselves, would be able to kill Sonic because of the counter ability, which reflects half of the damage delivered back to the attacker. I don't think Sonic would be able to stand even half the force of his attacks at full speed.

He can ram into walls at these speeds with no problem. Of course, this is ignoring the fact that saying that the FE characters could survive/counter this attack is extrapolation.

 

[RayStrYke]

In terms of physical strength have some huge muscles because they are trained fighters.
and some other characters technically have super strength, and I don't know if that counts or not.

Apes are one of the strongest creatures and in game is said to, "have arms like tree trunks". But in the Donkey Kong games there is someone stronger, Rambi the Rhinoceros, can plow through enemies that even has hard times with.

literally fought a castle and won. With arms like an elephant is the strongest in physical strength.
Unless has the Tri-force of strength and is in pig form.

*

 

[Crystanium]

In addition, you and @Dryn were both wrong about Shulk's Vision and his power. Shulk's Monado (Monado III) was inside of him. When Zanza retrieves both his own and Meyneth's Monados, he thinks he has them all and wants to destroy the universe. Shulk, equipped with a god-slaying Monado, kills him and obtains total mastery of the weapon. At that point, it becomes clear that it doesn't matter whether Ether is "outside the Xenoblade universe" or not. He had the ability innately, and if you're going to argue that Samus being part Chozo matters then the same goes for Shulk. One does not come without the other.

I never denied Shulk to affect himself because he retains ether. I denied that the Monado has any effect here and on anyone else because they lack ether. It's clearly stated that Monado depends on and affects ether. Say I had a weapon that could alter atoms at my will. If I went into an atomless universe, or if a divine being appeared before me, I couldn't assume that this being is made up of atoms. So my weapon would have no effect on this divine being. The fact that Samus has Chozo DNA doesn't have anything to do with anyone else on this battlefield. Her DNA isn't offensive or defensive, nor does it rely on an all-pervasive thing.

Again, I'll say this for the last time: Shulk stomps. Not just Samus or Sonic or Mario or Bowser, but the entire cast at once if necessary. It's not even worth debating. As for the second strongest character, I think that'd be much more interesting. Shulk is ridiculously overpowered at EOG, he's a universal level reality warper and no one else displays feats even remotely close to what he does.

You keep saying Shulk stomps. It doesn't make it true unless you can prove every character on the roster has anything in them that remotely shares the properties of ether.

Games are canon, are they not?

Games are canon, but as far as I'm aware, Arceus hasn't been defeated. Unless it is part of canon for Red to catch Arceus. Then that would be canon and it would tell us that he was stopped by mortals.

Samus can be killed by Beetles, what's your point?

I agree. "Beetle's massive mouth enables it to tunnel through solid rock at high speeds." You forgot to mention that.

Pit with the Sacred Treasures is extremely formidable.

Samus can be killed by Beetles, what's your point?

I agree. "Beetle's massive mouth enables it to tunnel through solid rock at high speeds." You forgot to mention that.

Pit with the Sacred Treasures is extremely formidable.

I agree. Turns out he seems to be able to produce a burst of speed that allows him to travel supersonic. At least Mach 1.2, the low-end speed of supersonic objects.

Also, if the speed Pit can travel is 100 m/s, and if he roughly traveled to the Lunar Sanctum in 32 seconds, then the distance is 3,200 meters (3.2 km.). Pit dodges a laser around that distance, which means his reaction time is 10.67 microseconds. Well, let's do something. 1 meter divided by 3,200 meters is 3.125%. Multiply that by 299,792,458 m/s (the speed of light) and Pit will be able to react to speeds of 9,368,514.31 m/s from anyone within a meter. In other words, no one should be able to hit Pit, except those who can move at light speed.

 

[monzer]

When did Kirby use this force to attack MK or DDD?

He didn't have to, it shows Kirby's strength, surviving a hit from a character who is strong enough to do something like that shows durability.

That may be true in game, but Jet Kirby's Mach 5 speeds make it a far better option.

A warp star will still travel faster than jet Kirby, making the speed obsolete.

How much force do the attacks produce?

Not sure how much exact force, but considering the strength of these characters it probably enough to send the entire roster(except for Ganondorf) into space.

Sonic is fast enough to attack twice before Mewtwo moves a muscle. Has Focus Sash been shown to resist the amount of force that Sonic will produce?

I just realized I was calculating the battle like it was turn based. Honestly Mewtwo can withstand attacks from gods, so I feel he can survive several attacks from sonic. Mewtwo could also activate trick room when Sonic speeds up or goes super sonic.

He can ram into walls at these speeds with no problem. Of course, this is ignoring the fact that saying that the FE characters could survive/counter this attack is extrapolation.

The Fire Emblem characters don't attack, the ability reflects the damage back for them. Fire emblem characters also have a skill that has a chance at leaving them with 1 health. Robin and Lucina both have these skills, so they would be able to beat Sonic. Again these characters are not even close to top tier, I just felt like it's worth mentioning.

 

[Munomario777]

Games are canon, but as far as I'm aware, Arceus hasn't been defeated. Unless it is part of canon for Red to catch Arceus. Then that would be canon and it would tell us that he was stopped by mortals.

I know that you can catch Arceus in one of the games. I'd assume it's canon, as the point of the game is to catch every Pokemon.

He didn't have to, it shows Kirby's strength, surviving a hit from a character who is strong enough to do something like that shows durability.

Until you can prove that those specific attacks have the same amount of force as the clip you provided, this doesn't prove much about MK and DDD's durability.

A warp star will still travel faster than jet Kirby, making the speed obsolete.

How fast?

Not sure how much exact force, but considering the strength of these characters it probably enough to send the entire roster(except for Ganondorf) into space.

Prove it.

I just realized I was calculating the battle like it was turn based. Honestly Mewtwo can withstand attacks from gods, so I feel he can survive several attacks from sonic.

Arceus's attacks are clearly not on a universal level or anything. If they were, then all of reality would be obliterated when he attacked.

Mewtwo could also activate trick room when Sonic speeds up or goes super sonic.

Sonic can accelerate to his top speed instantly.

The Fire Emblem characters don't attack, the ability reflects the damage back for them.

Yes, that's what I mean.

Fire emblem characters also have a skill that has a chance at leaving them with 1 health. Robin and Lucina both have these skills, so they would be able to beat Sonic. Again these characters are not even close to top tier, I just felt like it's worth mentioning.

Has the ability in question resisted 45212697.67 pounds of force? Even if we extrapolate, and say that they will survive and counter the attack, Sonic can withstand it; he crashes into walls at these speeds with no issue. He will then attack them again for a KO.

 

[monzer]

Until you can prove that those specific attacks have the same amount of force as the clip you provided, this doesn't prove much about MK and DDD's durability.

Taking a hit from someone strong enough to throw something around the sun and back is proof.

How fast?

Enough to go around the solar system in seconds, that's much faster than the speed of light

Prove it.

The video I showed you earlier

Arceus's attacks are clearly not on a universal level or anything. If they were, then all of reality would be obliterated when he attacked.

Yes but he still created a planet. There are also Pokemon who control space and Time and Mega Mewtwo surpasses them in power.

Sonic can accelerate to his top speed instantly.

How long does it take him to become Super Sonic. Either way Mewtwo could just use trick room when Sonic stops to taunt him about being too slow(we all know Sonic would do this).

Has the ability in question resisted 45212697.67 pounds of force? Even if we extrapolate, and say that they will survive and counter the attack, Sonic can withstand it; he crashes into walls at these speeds with no issue. He will then attack them again for a KO.

Can Sonic survive half the force of his own attacks? I don't think he can.

 

[Reckless Godwin 2.0]

He might know when to dodge, but I doubt that he could physically react to the Blue Falcon's high speeds, and dodge it in time. Precognition =/= guaranteed dodging.

Also, visions rely on ether, and the Blue Falcon doesn't contain ether.

Seems like a game mechanic to me. Who can't be targeted exactly?

How much force do they produce, and what is their range?

They can stay in the air long enough. What kind of "solid cover" would Shulk find?

And? If it can destroy a castle, it can destroy a person.

The Lightsphere, meanwhile, is an orb that is (presumably) made of pure light, and negates enemies' terrain bonuses, effective bonuses, and critical hits. The Monado shares none of these traits, as far as I'm aware.

Nothing will happen before the match starts; the fighters are being dropped into this arena with no prep time prior to the battle (aside from having all their items etc).

Is it a literal spike that protrudes from Shulk?

Many of his powerful ones are projectiles.

I believe he demonstrates the ability multiple times. Either way, Mewtwo's psychic abilities could possibly disarm Shulk or simply crush his internal organs.

No, he doesn't; no prep time.

He'll throw out some witty dialogue, but he still gets right into the action.

Do you have a video of this?

Blocked by what?

Prove it.

"You know nothing, fool! It's Chaos, the god of destruction!"
Super Sonic shrugs off attacks from Perfect Chaos (Chaos + the seven Chaos Emeralds) like it ain't no thing.

Prove that their durability matches that of Super Sonic.

Prove its force, then.

Toon Link can hold up to 5,000 Rupees in The Wind Waker. Each hit takes away about ten or so IIRC. Toon Link can, thus, tank ~500 hits before his Magic Armor runs out.

No, it's not, because it only exists in Shulk's universe.

Why can't they?

Provide them.

Which has nothing to do with durability.

Shulk isn't very large either.

He does need to be, because precognition =/= dodging ability.

Don't all non-Talent Arts?

How many hits did it block, and how powerful are they?

In that case, boss fights aren't canon because they're "balanced" around the protagonist and the boss being relatively similar (or not if it's a hard/easy boss). Balance is irrelevant.

And?

It doesn't reach far enough.

Prove this.

The old universe was already composed of ether, was it not?

He'll still know that there's danger.

Then why does he still use the Monado, which is created by gods IIRC? Sonic isn't a god. The Chaos Emeralds are not gods.

Humans also don't typically have swords crafted by the gods.

Yes, but those are not sentient.

And not for other fighters. Sonic normally operates in a world filled with slopes and loop-de-loops, but it would still be an advantage to him (his speed allows him to traverse this environment better than other fighters).

AI counts as an ally.

Then he hasn't been shown to use "his" (really Alvis's) god powers to kill anyone, so he wouldn't here.

Prove it.

Same.

When has this happened? The Monado can only see ether itself, so Shulk won't be able to see what Samus is doing. If anything, he would see the tiny particle on her leg moving.

To be fair, the scope of X makes it more of a "big fish" in a sense. X and Star Fox seem to be the only really big Wii U titles coming out in December, so I expect it to do well enough.

Yeah, hopefully more third-party DLC is on the way. Or perhaps in Smash 5.

Why are you supporting all these characters that have to win by ramming things.

The Blue Falcon doesn’t contain ether but its target Shulk does!

Game mechanic my ***! Why would a targeting computer be able to lock onto individual people.

Why would I know how much force they have, and they have a range of 15M in a frontal arc and a 20M projectile respectively (compare to the melee range of 4M for the Monado’s melee strikes).

The wooded area in the northwest of the map you posted some pages back.

Then why didn’t he do that to Link then?

None of those traits are what allow it to harm the Darksphere.

Shulk’s visions could care less about your view of how this would go. Shulk will get a vision of a teleporting robot hitting him with what looks like a flash of light and will use M Armor in advance. This assumes that Mega Man would waste his time stopping powers on what appears to be a regular human straight off the bat when he has to defeat Dr Wily multiple times before he thinks of executing him.

No. The effect comes from an armor gem.

Which stop at the edge of the screen.

Since when has Mewtwo demonstrated any of those powers?

There is no “no prep time” rule.

Good luck hitting him. Does this response sound familiar?

Look at the Titan Laser V/VII link.

Physically by the Monado.

Already have with the section at the bottom of the previous post.

The same thing could be said of Godzilla and Cthulhu but no one calls them gods.

No limits fallacy on invincibility.

He is going to need to tank far more than 500 hits from Shulk if he wants to win and that doesn‘t account for the difference in power between Shulk and Ganondorf‘s minions. The fact that Shulk hails from an RPG means this will be an issue for Link http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/HealthDamageAsymmetry.

I could care less. When you warped him in from here you brought his universe with him.

Visions + Reflexes.

You didn’t read my whole post, did you?

No limits fallacy on mega forms which is even more insulting than normal invincibility. According to you Mega Mario can get stepped on by Godzilla and he would be no worse for wear.

He has feats for damaging or outright defeating enemies many times his size and weight such as Yaldabaoth at Mechonis Core.

Precognition is dodging ability. You can’t get much better than that.

Monado Arts are talent arts rather than regular Arts (light Heal).

Two heavy blows from the Arachno Queen’s mandibles, and she is about the size of a van.

Boss fights are canon because there is no way to bypass them and see the ending. Bypassing multiplayer is as simple as not playing it.

Prove it. How far away do the combatants start from each other again?

Already have.

No. That universe had Earth which has a disturbing lack of ether.

Your point being.

Because he isn’t an idiot. Why on Bionis would he give up his only weapon that allowed him to get as far as he did when he is under attack now?

Point?

His wisps are though.

I don’t care what baseline for other fighters is.

Alvis is the Monado, and he talks through it. I could easily see him jamming the Chaos Emeralds as well.

So apparently Shulk didn’t kill Zanza, that’s a new one.

I just did.

So we actually agree on something. Wait, I just had a vision of a poster coming into the thread to argue Ryu to the top of the list sometime in the near future.

The particle stuck on her leg gives away where Samus’s leg will be in the future and by extension where Samus herself will be.

The problem is X will have to compete with the likes of Fallout 4 and other big holiday titles and that will cut into its sales to some extent. You are familiar with how games typically do big numbers in the first few weeks and then nosedive right? I’m not sure that X can use the evergreen strategy like other “core” Nintendo games can.

But we could all be dead by the time Smash 5 comes out!

Photons carry energy. They also produce heat. Based on color temperature, white light produces 5,000 K. 10,000 K is the temperature of objects which visible light radiation is the most intense wavelength emitted. Nuclear explosions reach 100,000,000°C.

Ether waves, specifically. This means the wave beam isn't rendered useless because it's not firing ether waves. Even then, opposing ether waves is what made the Monado inactive.

The Monado Purge still relies on ether. Until it can be proved that ether can be used here, it's rendered useless. Besides, assume it does work, how is it going to hit Samus? Samus has been captured by snare beams produced by Metroid Prime and she's been able to break out of it using the boost ball.

"Your visions are the flow of ether itself. Ether is the very source of our world's existence. Where and how much ether there exists now, and in the future, can be predicted. Therefore, in principle, the future of living beings such as us can also be predicted. And there is one thing that makes possible the visualization of those predictions." - Alvis

It doesn't look like Alvis says that Shulk can envision himself.

I didn't involve myself with Xenoblade until now. I'm still not satisfied with not knowing what ether can be compared to in other universes.

I'm not really concerned with physical attacks, unless those include missiles and super missiles.

So, what should I be seeing here? It looks like people were getting hit by lasers.

I have no calculations for any of these, especially the explosions because they are not comparable to actual explosives. However, the only one that stood out was the one at Mechonis Field. I didn't see anything that would meet 3.01 kilotons of TNT, and I also didn't see Shulk use Monado Shield to protect himself or others from these. There's Gadolt, but that explosion was unrealistic in how it behaved.

There's plenty more for me to look at concerning Metal Face, but that will need to be reserved for tomorrow. Until then, perhaps you could explain the significance of Metal Face's abilities and how they are supposed to make Shulk a formidable opponent on the roster. Again, I'll have to check tomorrow. For now, I just want to relax and watch some House. Before I go, I like science fiction, but I haven't read any science fiction except a bit of Halo: Fall of Reach. I'm not a fan of the Halo series, but yeah. Anyway, good night, everyone.

If nuclear blasts are that hot, than how can some buildings near the ground zero of the Hiroshima blast survive in part?

This means that high end Shulk calcs will let him neutralize all wave based weaponry since Egil was able to neutralize Zanza’s Monado of all things. The Monado’s reality warping properties should shut down everything else with counteracting waves where applicable.

This is a canon debate, you don’t get to pick and choose what does and doesn’t work. I have no idea about these Metroid Snare Beams, but they are likely inferior coming from a race of space locusts compared to the Monado’s background.

Shulk’s visions are seen from a 3rd person viewpoint so he can envision himself.

It makes up matter and energy, that is all you need to know.

The amount of force being blocked or negated is still very important.

Again, how much force is being blocked or negated.

They don’t need to be comparable to actual explosions, they just have to have more joules or force to matter in this debate. I’d imagine the explosions that killed Gadolt, destroyed Agniratha, traveled the gap between the two titans, punched through the Bionis shoulder and kept on going without slowing down is far more potent than 3,010 tons of TNT. Here is a video showing the beam it creates during the daylight hours (https://youtu.be/nTdODpdlx6U at 0:00-0:10, and you can see smoke rising from the Agniratha region of the Mechonis at 0:10-0:13, 0:27-0:28, 0:43-0:52, 1:03-1:06, and 1:27-1:29 (seriously, is it normal for smoke to take that long to clear) indicating that was indeed an explosion). Shulk doesn’t have to protect himself from those blasts because Meyneth would wind up doing that for him. Shulk is not going to receive a vision for a fatal attack if said attack gets blocked by someone else (example: https://youtu.be/18N8VjDQR8E?list=PL_sYhAj0WXRM2_xfO1O6P040gwIwlhqcP&t=976 at 16:16-16:24). It doesn’t matter if it acts realistically, I’m asking for a ball park figure on how destructive all these attacks are in joules or force units.
How destructive is 3.01 kilotons of TNT anyway (video please).

Two things can be used from Metal Face’s feats for Shulk.
One, due to all the Mechon and Face Mechon that he has destroyed or disabled he will have picked up many of their parts which can be made into weapons or armor. Mechon Armor is different from regular armor due to its ability to negate physical damage and reduce ether damage by half in gameplay, and due to him taking out Face Mechon he should have access to the same grade of armor that allowed Metal Face to tank the shots from the Colony 9 anti-air batteries.
Two, thanks to Shulk managing to melt Metal Face’s Face Armor and Jade Face mentioning that the bodies of Faces are made of steel, we can say that the Monado one’s blade is capable of heating up to 1,375 Celsius and that the more powerful versions should be at least as capable.

I only brought up the science fiction tangent because the Mechon and Telethia aren’t the most dangerous creature type that Monolith Soft has put into a Xeno game and the beings that I’m thinking about would stomp the Flood, Metroids, and X Parasites on a whole other level and are far more terrifying. Want me to tell you more about these “Space Locusts”?

Shrek is worshiped by his fandom as a god.

A Portion of the Fire Emblem fandom worship Gheb and the 3-13 Archer, but that doesn’t make them gods.

To say that it could go beyond what it's been shown to do is extrapolation.

Everything is an extrapolation with you, you know that right?

In terms of physical strength have some huge muscles because they are trained fighters.
and some other characters technically have super strength, and I don't know if that counts or not.

Apes are one of the strongest creatures and in game is said to, "have arms like tree trunks". But in the Donkey Kong games there is someone stronger, Rambi the Rhinoceros, can plow through enemies that even has hard times with.

literally fought a castle and won. With arms like an elephant is the strongest in physical strength.
Unless has the Tri-force of strength and is in pig form.

The size of ones muscles don't tell you anything about their lifting strength or punching strength. It probably is true for this group since I doubt they take steroids.
It is the Triforce of Power, not the Triforce of strength!



@Dryn, @ Munomario777 , @ DjinnandTonic , @ monzer , @ S Sodo None of you have commented on the fact that Bionis Slash X is a level 10 Talent Art and therefore blockable by Shulk’s Monado Shield.

The ether in Xenoblade could of originated in one of two ways:

1. When the experiment destroyed the old universe, all the matter and energy in it was converted to ether. Considering the fact that the Monado possesses the power of the experiment that destroyed the universe it should be able to repeat that feat with ease on a smaller scale.
2. The Ether was always there in the old universe and the experiment wound up rearranging it. Considering the Earth was wiped out in the experiment that would mean that ether would be a default substance in all fictitious works (that includes Smash bro and the canon sources all represented in it) made by man by default. Shulk gets to use ether freely with this interpretation.

 

[Sodo]

I never denied Shulk to affect himself because he retains ether. I denied that the Monado has any effect here and on anyone else because they lack ether. It's clearly stated that Monado depends on and affects ether. Say I had a weapon that could alter atoms at my will. If I went into an atomless universe, or if a divine being appeared before me, I couldn't assume that this being is made up of atoms. So my weapon would have no effect on this divine being. The fact that Samus has Chozo DNA doesn't have anything to do with anyone else on this battlefield. Her DNA isn't offensive or defensive, nor does it rely on an all-pervasive thing.

You're literally saying that in an alternate universe no one's powers are assumed to work. Palutena's magic isn't assumed to work, Ganondorf's powers aren't assumed to work, Ness' powers aren't assumed to work, etc. Who is to say that PSI abilities work here? Magic? What's the difference? I assumed Mario was human, but who is really to say with your argument? A full charge shot to the face may not phase him, simply because it's never occurred and never will and you can't prove otherwsie. Energy that powerful in Metroid or Kid Icarus could theoretically be the equivalent of a Koopa shell shot in the Mushroom Kingdom and vice versa. Who is to say that Samus' suit wouldn't just shut down in a new universe, how do you know that the Energy Tanks would interact the same? Wouldn't different gravity and forces affect Sonic's speed? How do you know?

An atomless universe? What sort of discussion has this become? You're attempting to use quantum mechanics in a debate about theoretical character strengths to argue a character's relative strength. Ether in "our world" refers to a chemical compound which contains oxygen. If we're going by your arguments, and assuming all these characters breathe oxygen (which you also don't know, so I guess you could argue that as well, although Samus' suit is designed for her to have unlimited access only to oxygen so unless there is oxygen in the air she's dead anyway), then Shulk most assuredly can manipulate anything he wants and blinkstomps the entire cast 10/10 gg no re.

Games are canon, but as far as I'm aware, Arceus hasn't been defeated. Unless it is part of canon for Red to catch Arceus. Then that would be canon and it would tell us that he was stopped by mortals.

I'm not well versed in Pokemon, but as far as canon goes I thought he was the most powerful. In-game that goes to Mewtwo or Rayquaza right?

I agree. "Beetle's massive mouth enables it to tunnel through solid rock at high speeds." You forgot to mention that.

Samus isn't going to be killed by anybody but a skilled, capable, powerful combatant. I'm not buying this hahahaha.

 

[monzer]

@ S Sodo
In-game is in canon with Pokemon.

Well, at least the stats of the Pokemon are canon

 

[DjinnandTonic]

On Trick Room: The in-game description specifically states that it inverts the speed of fighters affected by it so it's less that Mewtwo (or one of Pokemon Trainer's Pokemon) would become superfast and more than Sonic would become super slow. Whatever the inverse of the Speed of Light is. That's the lore anyway. Due to how Trick Room interacts with Priority though, I can certainly see the argument that something like the Light Speed Dash ignores Trick Room's effects. It's another case of Lore vs Mechanics here. I'm personally taking the view which splits the interpretations, Mewtwo w/ the assumption that Trick Room works as in the Lore, and Mewtwo w/ the assumption that Trick Room is limited by how its mechanics work in-game.

This doesn't really change his or Pokemon Trainer's potential power ranking for my own list, though...

On Kirby's anime strength: While no doubt this proves Kirby is strong, I'm skeptical of Nintendo universe "space physics" being anything like our own. Mario Galaxy and Milky Way Wishes kind of disprove that nicely. Gravity is less powerful, distance between planetary bodies is MUCH shorter, the sizes of things like the sun and the moon and black holes are more minuscule by magnitudes. Also also, in MWW, we see that the Sun and Popstar aren't very far from one another. They are even closer to eachother than Popstar is to other planets (planetoids really). It's the same issue I have with DK's Moon-punching feat.

 

[monzer]

On Trick Room: The in-game description specifically states that it inverts the speed of fighters affected by it so it's less that Mewtwo (or one of Pokemon Trainer's Pokemon) would become superfast and more than Sonic would become super slow. Whatever the inverse of the Speed of Light is. That's the lore anyway. Due to how Trick Room interacts with Priority though, I can certainly see the argument that something like the Light Speed Dash ignores Trick Room's effects. It's another case of Lore vs Mechanics here. I'm personally taking the view which splits the interpretations, Mewtwo w/ the assumption that Trick Room works as in the Lore, and Mewtwo w/ the assumption that Trick Room is limited by how its mechanics work in-game.

This doesn't really change his or Pokemon Trainer's potential power ranking for my own list, though...

The way that thoose moves work is up to interpretation, agian, everyone should just agree to dissagree on this.

On Kirby's anime strength: While no doubt this proves Kirby is strong, I'm skeptical of Nintendo universe "space physics" being anything like our own. Mario Galaxy and Milky Way Wishes kind of disprove that nicely. Gravity is less powerful, distance between planetary bodies is MUCH shorter, the sizes of things like the sun and the moon and black holes are more minuscule by magnitudes. Also also, in MWW, we see that the Sun and Popstar aren't very far from one another. They are even closer to eachother than Popstar is to other planets (planetoids really). It's the same issue I have with DK's Moon-punching feat.

While I do agree with you on the distance from Popstar to the sun is less than the distance from earth to the sun. The sun was apparently fighting with the moon at that time, so its placement on the map may not be the pkace it usually is.

 

[Munomario777]

Taking a hit from someone strong enough to throw something around the sun and back is proof.

Kirby has only demonstrated this strength once, when he launched the frying pan into the sun. Has this been demonstrated in gameplay? If so, prove it.

Enough to go around the solar system in seconds, that's much faster than the speed of light

Kirby's solar system <<<<<<<<< our solar system.

The video I showed you earlier

Prove the weight of the enemy launched by Kirby.

Yes but he still created a planet.

Which is irrelevant to attack power.

There are also Pokemon who control space and Time and Mega Mewtwo surpasses them in power.

Controlling time and space are irrelevant to attack power.

How long does it take him to become Super Sonic.

Maybe half a second.

Either way Mewtwo could just use trick room when Sonic stops to taunt him about being too slow(we all know Sonic would do this).

Which we can only assume would boost Mewtwo's speed by nine times, or reduce Sonic's speed by a similar amount. Sonic will still be far faster.

Can Sonic survive half the force of his own attacks? I don't think he can.

Yes, he can. He can ram into walls at those speeds without a scratch.

Why are you supporting all these characters that have to win by ramming things.

Because it's effective.

The Blue Falcon doesn’t contain ether but its target Shulk does!

That won't

Game mechanic my ***! Why would a targeting computer be able to lock onto individual people.

Because it's supposed to lock onto things.

Why would I know how much force they have,

To provide evidence.

and they have a range of 15M in a frontal arc and a 20M projectile respectively (compare to the melee range of 4M for the Monado’s melee strikes).

Point?

The wooded area in the northwest of the map you posted some pages back.

We're using the flat arena.

Then why didn’t he do that to Link then?

Because there would be no game. The player would lose instantly.

None of those traits are what allow it to harm the Darksphere.

It's made of pure light. Light gets rid of darkness.

Shulk’s visions could care less about your view of how this would go. Shulk will get a vision of a teleporting robot hitting him with what looks like a flash of light and will use M Armor in advance.

Meanwhile, Mega Man has already done said time stopping while Shulk was having the vision.

This assumes that Mega Man would waste his time stopping powers on what appears to be a regular human straight off the bat when he has to defeat Dr Wily multiple times before he thinks of executing him.

The goal is to kill the opponent by any means necessary.

No. The effect comes from an armor gem.

Then it won't have the OHKO effects that actual spikes do on Mega Man.

Which stop at the edge of the screen.

Not if Mega Man follows them.

Since when has Mewtwo demonstrated any of those powers?

I believe it's in one of the movies.

There is no “no prep time” rule.

There is no mention of prep time in the rules, either.

Good luck hitting him. Does this response sound familiar?

Explain to me how Shulk will dodge Sonic's attacks.

Look at the Titan Laser V/VII link.

Do you have a video of Shulk surviving it?

Physically by the Monado.

What protective power does the Monado have? Mega Man's weapons can destroy robots, which are made of metal.

Already have with the section at the bottom of the previous post.

I saw no proof.

The same thing could be said of Godzilla and Cthulhu but no one calls them gods.

And Chaos is called a "god of destruction".

No limits fallacy on invincibility.

How is asking for durability feats a no limits fallacy?

He is going to need to tank far more than 500 hits from Shulk if he wants to win and that doesn‘t account for the difference in power between Shulk and Ganondorf‘s minions.

Prove the force of the Monado's attacks, then.

The fact that Shulk hails from an RPG means this will be an issue for Link http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/HealthDamageAsymmetry.

How is this link relevant?

I could care less. When you warped him in from here you brought his universe with him.

No, Shulk is being brought here from his universe.

Visions + Reflexes.

When has Shulk demonstrated the latter?

You didn’t read my whole post, did you?

Oh, sorry. Would you mind condensing that a bit? There's a lot to take in.

No limits fallacy on mega forms which is even more insulting than normal invincibility. According to you Mega Mario can get stepped on by Godzilla and he would be no worse for wear.

When did I say that?

He has feats for damaging or outright defeating enemies many times his size and weight such as Yaldabaoth at Mechonis Core.

What feats of durability have they demonstrated?

Precognition is dodging ability. You can’t get much better than that.

No, precognition is knowing when to dodge; dodging ability is the ability to actually do the physical dodging. I could be tied to a chair and be told that I would be shot in the head (precognition), but I'm tied to a chair, so I cannot dodge it.

Monado Arts are talent arts rather than regular Arts (light Heal).

Ah. Those rely on the Talant Gauge, no?

Two heavy blows from the Arachno Queen’s mandibles, and she is about the size of a van.

Does it not block only one attack normally?

Boss fights are canon because there is no way to bypass them and see the ending. Bypassing multiplayer is as simple as not playing it.

Singleplayer can be bypassed by playing the entire game with multiple players.

Prove it.

Lore is proof.

How far away do the combatants start from each other again?

Around ten yards, IIRC.

Already have.

When?

No. That universe had Earth which has a disturbing lack of ether.

Then how did Shulk have visions throughout the game?

Your point being.

That Sonic could transform into his super form if he was in danger (and if he actually needed to).

Because he isn’t an idiot.

Why would he be against anything related to gods, yet keep the Monado? If he was smart about these things, he wouldn't abandon his own godship.

Why on Bionis would he give up his only weapon that allowed him to get as far as he did when he is under attack now?

Why would he give up the best thing that ever happened to him, that being becoming a god?

Point?

Shulk parries the robot with his sword. The sword has godly power. It would seem that the sword possesses the strength here.

His wisps are though.

"Ally" is defined here as a sentient being that can operate separately from the main character in a meaningful way. The wisps are only useful when Sonic combines with them, so they are items, not allies.

I don’t care what baseline for other fighters is.

I don't care what the baseline for Shulk is.

Alvis is the Monado,

No, he's not. If he was, Shulk would not get to use the Monado.

and he talks through it. I could easily see him jamming the Chaos Emeralds as well.

When has he been shown to disable mystical gems? That's the Master Emerald's job.

So apparently Shulk didn’t kill Zanza, that’s a new one.

Did he use his "omnipotence" to do this?

I just did.

I saw a link to a video of a robot swinging a large sword at another robot. How does this relate to the Power Bomb?

So we actually agree on something. Wait, I just had a vision of a poster coming into the thread to argue Ryu to the top of the list sometime in the near future.

I think that already happened.

The particle stuck on her leg gives away where Samus’s leg will be in the future and by extension where Samus herself will be.

And not what she's doing.

The problem is X will have to compete with the likes of Fallout 4 and other big holiday titles and that will cut into its sales to some extent. You are familiar with how games typically do big numbers in the first few weeks and then nosedive right? I’m not sure that X can use the evergreen strategy like other “core” Nintendo games can.

We'll have to see. I hope it does well, it looks like a really cool game. :/

But we could all be dead by the time Smash 5 comes out!

I somewhat doubt that.

Shulk’s visions are seen from a 3rd person viewpoint so he can envision himself.

What good will this do?

It makes up matter and energy, that is all you need to know.

It also shows wildly different properties from matter and energy in other universes.

Everything is an extrapolation with you, you know that right?

It would appear so.

@Dryn, @ Munomario777 , @ DjinnandTonic , @ monzer , @ S Sodo None of you have commented on the fact that Bionis Slash X is a level 10 Talent Art and therefore blockable by Shulk’s Monado Shield.

Prove how much force it possesses, then.

The ether in Xenoblade could of originated in one of two ways:

1. When the experiment destroyed the old universe, all the matter and energy in it was converted to ether. Considering the fact that the Monado possesses the power of the experiment that destroyed the universe it should be able to repeat that feat with ease on a smaller scale.
2. The Ether was always there in the old universe and the experiment wound up rearranging it. Considering the Earth was wiped out in the experiment that would mean that ether would be a default substance in all fictitious works (that includes Smash bro and the canon sources all represented in it) made by man by default. Shulk gets to use ether freely with this interpretation.

1. This never happened in other universes. Prove that the Monado can transform matter into ether.
2. Prove that other universes possess ether. Keep in mind that it is not simply "matter and energy", by the way. You'll need the specific properties to be paralleled to prove anything.

On Trick Room: The in-game description specifically states that it inverts the speed of fighters affected by it so it's less that Mewtwo (or one of Pokemon Trainer's Pokemon) would become superfast and more than Sonic would become super slow. Whatever the inverse of the Speed of Light is. That's the lore anyway. Due to how Trick Room interacts with Priority though, I can certainly see the argument that something like the Light Speed Dash ignores Trick Room's effects. It's another case of Lore vs Mechanics here. I'm personally taking the view which splits the interpretations, Mewtwo w/ the assumption that Trick Room works as in the Lore, and Mewtwo w/ the assumption that Trick Room is limited by how its mechanics work in-game.

I'm working with Trick Room increasing the speed of the user or decreasing the speed of the target so that the user can exceed an opponent 9x faster than them, as to not extrapolate. Both will have the same effect. I'm interpreting the "high priority moves ignore the swap" deal as fighters with fast enough moves can move quickly enough to still be faster than the user of Trick Room, even when slowed down. (If that makes sense. )

On Kirby's anime strength: While no doubt this proves Kirby is strong, I'm skeptical of Nintendo universe "space physics" being anything like our own. Mario Galaxy and Milky Way Wishes kind of disprove that nicely. Gravity is less powerful, distance between planetary bodies is MUCH shorter, the sizes of things like the sun and the moon and black holes are more minuscule by magnitudes. Also also, in MWW, we see that the Sun and Popstar aren't very far from one another. They are even closer to eachother than Popstar is to other planets (planetoids really). It's the same issue I have with DK's Moon-punching feat.

Mhm.

 

[DjinnandTonic]

One thing worth mentioning is that while Trick Room may be a field effect, we don't actually know how far its effect extends. For people considering this as a battle, it's entirely possible that it doesn't cover the whole 10x10 km or whatever battlefield. I personally don't know how it's used in the anime either.

 

[monzer]

Kirby has only demonstrated this strength once, when he launched the frying pan into the sun. Has this been demonstrated in gameplay? If so, prove it.

He doesn't have to, doing it once is enough to show he is strong enough to go it. Has Sonics speed ever been demonstrated in gameplay.

Kirby's solar system <<<<<<<<< our solar system.

It isn't that much smaller, Popstar is the same size as Earth.

Prove the weight of the enemy launched by Kirby

Why would there be an exact weight measurement of a creature that only apeared in one episode of an anime? Unless that creature weighed literally nothing, Kirby's punches will still send nearly all of the cast to space.

Which is irrelevant to attack power.
Controlling time and space are irrelevant to attack power

Having the strength to distort space and time means you must be pretty strong.

Which we can only assume would boost Mewtwo's speed by nine times, or reduce Sonic's speed by a similar amount. Sonic will still be far faster.

The 9x thing is complete bs. If it was true, smogon would have said it. Provide proof that 9x is the limitation.

 

[Crystanium]

If nuclear blasts are that hot, than how can some buildings near the ground zero of the Hiroshima blast survive in part?

According to Wikipedia, "Some of the reinforced concrete buildings in Hiroshima had been very strongly constructed because of the earthquake danger in Japan, and their framework did not collapse even though they were fairly close to the blast center. Since the bomb detonated in the air, the blast was directed more downward than sideways, which was largely responsible for the survival of the Prefectural Industrial Promotional Hall, now commonly known as the Genbaku (A-bomb) dome."

Using Nuke Map and setting the explosion to be detonated in the air, the fireball would have only covered 0.1 km^2. Aside from the fireball, the thermal radiation reached 12.5 km^2. Samus' power bomb is set on the ground.

This means that high end Shulk calcs will let him neutralize all wave based weaponry since Egil was able to neutralize Zanza’s Monado of all things. The Monado’s reality warping properties should shut down everything else with counteracting waves where applicable.

Notice it's the Monado that's affected. This cannot be carried over into an etherless location.

This is a canon debate, you don’t get to pick and choose what does and doesn’t work. I have no idea about these Metroid Snare Beams, but they are likely inferior coming from a race of space locusts compared to the Monado’s background.

Actually, the snare beams are generated by Metroid Prime, a Metroid that fed on vast quantities of Phazon, a semi-sentient, extraterrestial material with mutagenic properties that kill weak organisms and mutate strong organisms. Phazon is what caused the destruction of planets, including Aether, which caused a dimensional rift, creating not only a dark version of the planet, but other alien life. You read that correctly. Phazon messed with spacetime.

Shulk’s visions are seen from a 3rd person viewpoint so he can envision himself.

That's typical of the human mind. Any time you think of an event that you've experienced in the past, you see yourself in third-person. People usually don't think about this when they think of past events. But all right, because I cannot use this against the developers because they're just doing what any human would do, Shulk can use vision to see what will happen.

It makes up matter and energy, that is all you need to know.

Had the part about ether affecting the immaterial not been mentioned, or if there wasn't some ethereal realm that ether also affects, then ether could have been compared to atoms. Because atoms are physical objects, we cannot assume that's what it is.

The amount of force being blocked or negated is still very important.

Only with force, not much else.

Again, how much force is being blocked or negated.[

The curve of those arms or whatever make it difficult to calculate. I thought about using a cylinder, perhaps. I'm not sure what the density of the body is. I suppose I could try working with steel, although I doubt this is acceptable. Say it's 2 meters and the diameter is 1 meter. Using pi * r^2 * h would give us a volume of 1.5707963267948966 m^3. The density of steel is 7,800 kg/m^3. This gives us a mass of 12,252.21134900019348 kg. Next, the acceleration.

The distance isn't all that far, so I'll say 2 m/s^2. Using F = ma, this gives us 24,504.42269800038696 kg m/s^2, which is equal to 2.75 tons-force. This assumes I calculated everything correctly, but it relies on a lot of assumptions. I'm sure anyone would doubt the mass being equal to that of steel, unless the Arachno Queen was metallic. I was being generous.

On the other hand, Samus' speed booster produces a force of 21,763.35 kg m/s^2. You can see the speed booster wouldn't meet this expectation, but shinesparking would make a difference since the acceleration would be equal to the velocity, resulting in 43,526.7 kg m/s^2, or 4.89 tons-force. I'm also ignoring the mass of Samus' armor since the consensus is that her body mass is 90 kg.

The other videos are difficult to determine.

They don’t need to be comparable to actual explosions, they just have to have more joules or force to matter in this debate.

It's not so much of the explosion as it is the way it's generated. I don't know what a blue, glowing orb is supposed to tell me. I see it and the result, but I don't know how I'd figure that out, except perhaps by radius.

I’d imagine the explosions that killed Gadolt, destroyed Agniratha, traveled the gap between the two titans, punched through the Bionis shoulder and kept on going without slowing down is far more potent than 3,010 tons of TNT. Here is a video showing the beam it creates during the daylight hours (https://youtu.be/nTdODpdlx6U at 0:00-0:10, and you can see smoke rising from the Agniratha region of the Mechonis at 0:10-0:13, 0:27-0:28, 0:43-0:52, 1:03-1:06, and 1:27-1:29 (seriously, is it normal for smoke to take that long to clear) indicating that was indeed an explosion).

I'm not denying it was an explosion. I'm just not sure what the yield is supposed to be.

Shulk doesn’t have to protect himself from those blasts because Meyneth would wind up doing that for him.

Meyneth is not here to aid Shulk, however.

Shulk is not going to receive a vision for a fatal attack if said attack gets blocked by someone else (example: https://youtu.be/18N8VjDQR8E?list=PL_sYhAj0WXRM2_xfO1O6P040gwIwlhqcP&t=976 at 16:16-16:24). It doesn’t matter if it acts realistically, I’m asking for a ball park figure on how destructive all these attacks are in joules or force units.
How destructive is 3.01 kilotons of TNT anyway (video please).

I worded things wrong. I wasn't trying to say the explosions don't act like actual explosions. I meant to say the cause of the explosions are unknown to me because I don't have the explosive material. I could try using the blast radius, of course. I don't think I'd be able to cover every explosion, though, just the one on Mechonis Field. Also, here's what half a kiloton of TNT looks like. Apparently, according to the narrator, that's enough to wipe out a small city. I don't have anything for even 3 kilotons on video.

Two things can be used from Metal Face’s feats for Shulk.
One, due to all the Mechon and Face Mechon that he has destroyed or disabled he will have picked up many of their parts which can be made into weapons or armor. Mechon Armor is different from regular armor due to its ability to negate physical damage and reduce ether damage by half in gameplay, and due to him taking out Face Mechon he should have access to the same grade of armor that allowed Metal Face to tank the shots from the Colony 9 anti-air batteries.
Two, thanks to Shulk managing to melt Metal Face’s Face Armor and Jade Face mentioning that the bodies of Faces are made of steel, we can say that the Monado one’s blade is capable of heating up to 1,375 Celsius and that the more powerful versions should be at least as capable.

What kind of armor? Steel melts at1,370°C. Cast iron melts at 1,375°C. Still interesting. Samus is vulnerable to at least 800°C, so that could harm Samus.

I only brought up the science fiction tangent because the Mechon and Telethia aren’t the most dangerous creature type that Monolith Soft has put into a Xeno game and the beings that I’m thinking about would stomp the Flood, Metroids, and X Parasites on a whole other level and are far more terrifying. Want me to tell you more about these “Space Locusts”?

X parasites were the top of the food chain on planet SR388. They're able to perfectly duplicate other organisms and retain their memories. The only thing the X parasites cannot copy are mechanical objects. The Ing of Dark Aether, on the other hand, can possess organisms and machines. I'd say the Ing are more of a threat than the X, honestly. I looked up "space locusts", but got nothing. If you want to go ahead and tell me, you're more than welcome to.

@Dryn, @ Munomario777 , @ DjinnandTonic , @ monzer , @ S Sodo None of you have commented on the fact that Bionis Slash X is a level 10 Talent Art and therefore blockable by Shulk’s Monado Shield.

Considering Yaldabaoth's size, it is pretty impressive, so I wouldn't expect even Samus' shinespark to harm Shulk. However, with the choice of the wave, light, nova, and plasma beam, Shulk's shield should be penetrable.

The ether in Xenoblade could of originated in one of two ways:

1. When the experiment destroyed the old universe, all the matter and energy in it was converted to ether. Considering the fact that the Monado possesses the power of the experiment that destroyed the universe it should be able to repeat that feat with ease on a smaller scale.
2. The Ether was always there in the old universe and the experiment wound up rearranging it. Considering the Earth was wiped out in the experiment that would mean that ether would be a default substance in all fictitious works (that includes Smash bro and the canon sources all represented in it) made by man by default. Shulk gets to use ether freely with this interpretation.

If there are multiple universes, it doesn't necessarily mean they behave the same way as other universes. Earth in the Xenoblade universe doesn't necessarily mean it's the same in another universe with a planet called Earth. Even if ether was present, I'm not sure how that's supposed to change anything. Shulk can use Monado Shield. He can use vision. Shulk is inherently made of ether, but it doesn't mean the rest of the roster is. It's like how Darth Vader would be able to use the Force on himself, but not anyone else who lacks midi-chlorians.

As for Mischievious (sic) Naberius, I'm sure Samus could defeat it. She's dealt with Quadraxis and other large enemies.

You're literally saying that in an alternate universe no one's powers are assumed to work.

No I'm not. Shulk's powers rely on the existence of ether. While he himself can retain either, he being made of the very stuff, this is not applicable to other characters. Palutena's magic doesn't uphold the existence of the Universe. Ganondorf's powers don't uphold the existence of the Universe. Ness' powers do not uphold the existence of the Universe. What we assume for all characters is they have their abilities and that they are on a battlefield where our physics applies. There is suspension of disbelief on some things, but all the characters you mentioned do not rely on an all-pervasive thing called ether. Let me put it another way. Neo can use his abilities in the Matrix. If he's outside of it, his abilities don't work. So it is with Shulk. The only difference is Shulk is made of ether. Neo? Well, he's just a human who enters the Matrix.

An atomless universe? What sort of discussion has this become? You're attempting to use quantum mechanics in a debate about theoretical character strengths to argue a character's relative strength. Ether in "our world" refers to a chemical compound which contains oxygen. If we're going by your arguments, and assuming all these characters breathe oxygen (which you also don't know, so I guess you could argue that as well, although Samus' suit is designed for her to have unlimited access only to oxygen so unless there is oxygen in the air she's dead anyway), then Shulk most assuredly can manipulate anything he wants and blinkstomps the entire cast 10/10 gg no re.

An atomless universe has nothing to do with quantum mechanics. I'm not even going to pretend I know what quantum mechanics is or how it works. I already struggle with physics because I don't have a proper teaching of it. My example was to show that if I could control all the atoms in the Universe, it wouldn't mean anything to a being who exists in an atomless universe.

Ether in our world may contain oxygen, but so does CO2 (carbon dioxide). It doesn't mean that it's dioxygen (O2), or air (which contains too many atoms). Ether isn't oxygen in the same way aspartame isn't aspartic acid. Does aspartame contain aspartic acid? Yes. It doesn't mean the two are the same, however. Of course, ether in our universe is different from ether in the Xenoblade universe. It has various properties where pinning it down makes it difficult.

I'm not well versed in Pokemon, but as far as canon goes I thought he was the most powerful. In-game that goes to Mewtwo or Rayquaza right

The last version I played was sapphire, so I can't say.

Samus isn't going to be killed by anybody but a skilled, capable, powerful combatant. I'm not buying this hahahaha.

That's fine. The way I see it, a character harmed by an attack is an indicator that the developers intended for said character to be vulnerable to said attack. Being able to bury through solid rock at high speeds is impressive.

 

[DjinnandTonic]

The explanation of ether in game was stated to be a fundamental building block of both matter and energy. Sub-proton level. So I'd assume that ether is analogous (if not outright the same thing) to quarks. The Monado is essentially capable of fine manipulation of quarks. Allowing conversion of matter to other forms of matter and energy and vice versa. The extent and speed of which is up for debate however.

Shulk is clearly seen capable of reverting things to their natural state using this power (rendering Mechon armor into regular armor, restoring bodily wounds with Ether heal, restoring Seven's whole body and the destroyed universe if you count that as Shulk's own power and not "Alvis' doing"). He's shown some degree of creating new shapes by creating a new Monado out of ether.

Pretty sure that at least that baseline level of power is indisputable.

It's reasonable to assume he's CAPABLE of larger feats with the ability (Alvis outright states that Shulk is capable of anything, so it's a strong implication) but it hasn't been shown that he's actually achieved that level of skill. So at this point it comes down to whether you're basing him on his potential or limiting him to only the baseline things he's done despite the lore implying he's capable of more. Again though, perfectly reasonable to not rate a character just based on implication.

Out of curiosity, I wonder what @Dryn would make of quark manipulation in physics.

 

[Crystanium]

@ DjinnandTonic
Even if Shulk could change the very fabric of existence, it wouldn't mean he would do so, especially if he's never done so against his enemies. Ether is not analogous to quarks or atoms because atoms are physical objects. There is no evidence of them interacting with a non-physical, i.e., spiritual world like ether.

 

[Munomario777]

He doesn't have to, doing it once is enough to show he is strong enough to go it.

Kirby did demonstrate that strength once, and he is capable of doing so. However, it seems to be a rare case; he doesn't demonstrate this strength often. Thus, you will need to prove that Kirby uses that force to attack MK and DDD.

Has Sonics speed ever been demonstrated in gameplay.

It's stated in lore. It would be impossible to accurately represent hypersonic speeds in gameplay, A) because of processing limitations and B) because the game would be unplayable at such high speeds.

It isn't that much smaller, Popstar is the same size as Earth.

I'm referring to the distance between the planets. Look at this link to see what I mean.

Why would there be an exact weight measurement of a creature that only apeared in one episode of an anime?

There isn't. However, if you want to prove anything, you'll have to find out an approximate weight and back it up.

Unless that creature weighed literally nothing, Kirby's punches will still send nearly all of the cast to space.

Prove it.

Having the strength to distort space and time means you must be pretty strong.

And it has nothing to do with attacks that do not use the warping of time and space.

The 9x thing is complete bs. If it was true, smogon would have said it. Provide proof that 9x is the limitation.

The most extreme example I've seen is a Slowpoke going before Mega Mewtwo, whose speed stat is about nine times greater than the Slowpoke's. Thus, I treat that as the limit, as it hasn't been shown to go past that.

 

[DjinnandTonic]

@ DjinnandTonic
Even if Shulk could change the very fabric of existence, it wouldn't mean he would do so, especially if he's never done so against his enemies. Ether is not analogous to quarks or atoms because atoms are physical objects. There is no evidence of them interacting with a non-physical, i.e., spiritual world like ether.

This is another reason I like rating on a capability scale. It avoids weird "intent" limitations in a discussion about power. But I certainly agree that Shulk would never use his ability to unmake matter directly on a living being, even his enemy. And certainly not during a battle for sport. But then again, Shulk wouldn't really be in a battle for sport in the first place so it's an artificial scenario...

Also, and this isn't an argument, I'm genuinely curious: what do you mean by ether/atoms having a "spiritual connection"? Is this some Higgs Boson "God Particle" reference?

 

[monzer]

Kirby did demonstrate that strength once, and he is capable of doing so. However, it seems to be a rare case; he doesn't demonstrate this strength often. Thus, you will need to prove that Kirby uses that force to attack MK and DDD.

Why would Kirby suddenly get weaker. Unless he was holding back, they would be receiving the full force of his power. Kirby would have no reason to hold back.

Anyway, is surviving attacks that have power over the entire universe and having unlimited power enough to show they are durable.

It's stated in lore. It would be impossible to accurately represent hypersonic speeds in gameplay, A) because of processing limitations and B) because the game would be unplayable at such high speeds.

Where in the lore has it said that.

I'm referring to the distance between the planets. Look at this link to see what I mean.

I also found this clip, he also travels around galaxies.

There isn't. However, if you want to prove anything, you'll have to find out an approximate weight and back it up.

Assuming that Kirby is 8 inches tall, I would guess the monster was about 4 feet tall, making him around 60-70 pounds. The frying pan was probably around 80 pounds. So In total Kirby threw 130-150 pounds around the sun ans back.

Prove it.

I take that back, Bowser wouldn't fly into space. But I don't think any other character weighs enough to not leave the gravitational field.

And it has nothing to do with attacks that do not use the warping of time and space.

Still, being able to survive a space warping attack means you are pretty durable.

The most extreme example I've seen is a Slowpoke going before Mega Mewtwo, whose speed stat is about nine times greater than the Slowpoke's. Thus, I treat that as the limit, as it hasn't been shown to go past that.

A level one Pokemon with a speed stat of one will out speed a Pokemon with a speed stat of 500 with trick room, there are no limitations to the move once it takes effect.

 

[Munomario777]

Why would Kirby suddenly get weaker. Unless he was holding back, they would be receiving the full force of his power. Kirby would have no reason to hold back.

Because he only demonstrated that strength once, in the anime. It's an outlier. Until you can prove that it's a consistent attribute of Kirby throughout the games, I won't take it into account when determining MK and DDD's durability.

Anyway, is surviving attacks that have power over the entire universe and having unlimited power enough to show they are durable.

If it truly was "limitless power", it would OHKO any target regardless of durability.

Where in the lore has it said that.

In the Sonic Adventure DX manual.

I also found this clip, he also travels around galaxies.

That was a good ten seconds of what would seem to be charge time. Until you can prove that this galaxy is a significant distance away (MWW isn't known for being scientifically accurate in this regard), then we can't assume much about this.

Assuming that Kirby is 8 inches tall, I would guess the monster was about 4 feet tall, making him around 60-70 pounds. The frying pan was probably around 80 pounds. So In total Kirby threw 130-150 pounds around the sun ans back.

Since when do frying pans weigh eighty pounds?

Anyway, looking back at the clip, that frying pan doesn't seem to be moving anywhere near escape velocity. At least, not when Kirby actually throws it. It would appear that the frying pan is actually speeding up as it flies higher into the atmosphere. I'm not sure what to make of this. My best guess is that Popstar has low gravity, little air resistance, and that the nearby sun's gravity is actually pulling the pan away from Popstar. This may not be entirely due to Kirby's strength, explaining why this (and other anime feats where enemies are launched into the air) is such an outlier.

I take that back, Bowser wouldn't fly into space. But I don't think any other character weighs enough to not leave the gravitational field.

See above. Anyway, the arena has a ceiling.

Still, being able to survive a space warping attack means you are pretty durable.

Or that said attack isn't all that effective.

A level one Pokemon with a speed stat of one will out speed a Pokemon with a speed stat of 50 with trick room, there are no limitations to the move once it takes effect.

Prove it.

 

[monzer]

Because he only demonstrated that strength once, in the anime. It's an outlier. Until you can prove that it's a consistent attribute of Kirby throughout the games, I won't take it into account when determining MK and DDD's durability.

The anime is considered to be canon. Doing something once with no struggle means you can do it again.

If it truly was "limitless power", it would OHKO any target regardless of durability.

It's still universal level power that they withstood.

That was a good ten seconds of what would seem to be charge time. Until you can prove that this galaxy is a significant distance away (MWW isn't known for being scientifically accurate in this regard), then we can't assume much about this.

He wasn't charging up, they just need

Since when do frying pans weigh eighty pounds?

The frying pan was the size of a person.

Anyway, looking back at the clip, that frying pan doesn't seem to be moving anywhere near escape velocity. At least, not when Kirby actually throws it. It would appear that the frying pan is actually speeding up as it flies higher into the atmosphere. I'm not sure what to make of this. My best guess is that Popstar has low gravity, little air resistance, and that the nearby sun's gravity is actually pulling the pan away from Popstar. This may not be entirely due to Kirby's strength, explaining why this (and other anime feats where enemies are launched into the air) is such an outlier.

Oh, and maybe the only reason why Sonic runs fast is because the place where he lives has no air resistance or friction. Popstar has been shown to have the same gravity as cold star, which is actually Earth. Finally, this is an anime of the video game, it doesn't have to be scientifically accurate, no video games are.

Really, at this point I get there's no way you're going to change your mind. There's no way Sonic is going to beat something that survives universe-busting levels of power.

 

[Munomario777]

The anime is considered to be canon. Doing something once with no struggle means you can do it again.

If Kirby was striking with that kind of force all the time, then why does he not OHKO every boss he encounters?

It's still universal level power that they withstood.

If those attacks were capable of destroying the universe, there would be no universe to speak of after the first attack was used.

He wasn't charging up, they just need

?

The frying pan was the size of a person.

Doesn't seem like it.

Oh, and maybe the only reason why Sonic runs fast is because the place where he lives has no air resistance or friction.

There's a difference between moving at superhuman speeds and defying the laws of physics by accelerating upwards with no apparent force acting upon the object. This is the only way that this feat makes sense.

Popstar has been shown to have the same gravity as cold star, which is actually Earth.

Is the sun in the same position here as it was in MWW?

Really, at this point I get there's no way you're going to change your mind. There's no way Sonic is going to beat something that survives universe-busting levels of power.

I'm still waiting to see those "universe-busting" attacks.

 

[monzer]

If Kirby was striking with that kind of force all the time, then why does he not OHKO every boss he encounters?

Because they have the resistance to withstand it.

If those attacks were capable of destroying the universe, there would be no universe to speak of after the first attack was used.

It's been said 4 times that the master crown gives control over the universe. How more direct can you be.

Doesn't seem like it.

It was the same size as the monster, who was the size of a human.

There's a difference between moving at superhuman speeds and defying the laws of physics by accelerating upwards with no apparent force acting upon the object. This is the only way that this feat makes sense.

Again, this is a video game. Maybe Kirby's throws just have those properties. The writers didn't put that scene in thinking "this will show how popstar has low gravity" they did it to show how strong Kirby is.

Is the sun in the same position here as it was in MWW?

No, it wasn't fighting the moon at this time.

I'm still waiting to see those "universe-busting" attacks.

Iv'e already showed you proof the Magalor has control over the universe

As i've said before, this is going nowhere, i'm just sticking with the seven-way tie.

 

[Munomario777]

Because they have the resistance to withstand it.

Prove this for all bosses.

It's been said 4 times that the master crown gives control over the universe. How more direct can you be.

If it had control over the universe, then it would be impossible for Kirby to win.

It was the same size as the monster, who was the size of a human.

Prove this.

Again, this is a video game. Maybe Kirby's throws just have those properties. The writers didn't put that scene in thinking "this will show how popstar has low gravity" they did it to show how strong Kirby is.

It doesn't matter how strong you are. Throwing something doesn't cause it to constantly accelerate upwards. This is nonsensical.

No, it wasn't fighting the moon at this time.

Prove that that is the reason for its position.

Iv'e already showed you proof the Magalor has control over the universe

I've shown the logical proof that he doesn't (or at least, that it's not used in the battle against Kirby).

As i've said before, this is going nowhere, i'm just sticking with the seven-way tie.

Okay. I have yet to see how anyone in the roster will withstand over forty-five million pounds of force. I'll stick with Sonic being the most powerful.

 

[monzer]

Prove this for all bosses.

I don't have to, not instantly dieing when Kirby hits them is enough proof.

If it had control over the universe, then it would be impossible for Kirby to win.
I've shown the logical proof that he doesn't (or at least, that it's not used in the battle against Kirby).

Well he did, and Kirby still won. It's been confirmed that he did have and used that power in the fight. Kirby is just really really powerful.

Prove this.

The monster was around 6-8 times the size of Kirby, didn't you watch the video

It doesn't matter how strong you are. Throwing something doesn't cause it to constantly accelerate upwards. This is nonsensical.

Since when was this supposed to make sense, it's a video game. If your argument for why Kirby isn't strong enough to do this is because it doesn't follow laws of physics it's pathetic. It's also against the laws of physics for something to travel faster than the speed of light, but Sonic still does it.

Prove that that is the reason for its position.

That was the whole point of MWW, Kirby had to stop the sun and the moon from fighting.

 

[Crystanium]

This is another reason I like rating on a capability scale. It avoids weird "intent" limitations in a discussion about power. But I certainly agree that Shulk would never use his ability to unmake matter directly on a living being, even his enemy. And certainly not during a battle for sport. But then again, Shulk wouldn't really be in a battle for sport in the first place so it's an artificial scenario...

Also, and this isn't an argument, I'm genuinely curious: what do you mean by ether/atoms having a "spiritual connection"? Is this some Higgs Boson "God Particle" reference?

Personality is part of each character, just like their abilities. This is why I bring it up so often.

Ether affects the physical and spiritual in the Xenoblade universe. Atoms do not. Considering the different properties, ether are not analogous to atoms. I didn't mean to confuse you or anyone who read my last post. Also, "God particle" is not a scientific word. It's a word made by the media. Just leave it at "Higgs boson".

 

[Sodo]

No I'm not. Shulk's powers rely on the existence of ether. While he himself can retain either, he being made of the very stuff, this is not applicable to other characters. Palutena's magic doesn't uphold the existence of the Universe. Ganondorf's powers don't uphold the existence of the Universe. Ness' powers do not uphold the existence of the Universe. What we assume for all characters is they have their abilities and that they are on a battlefield where our physics applies. There is suspension of disbelief on some things, but all the characters you mentioned do not rely on an all-pervasive thing called ether. Let me put it another way. Neo can use his abilities in the Matrix. If he's outside of it, his abilities don't work. So it is with Shulk. The only difference is Shulk is made of ether. Neo? Well, he's just a human who enters the Matrix.

Palutena, Ganondorf, and Ness' powers absolutely carry the same implications that Shulk does. Palutena is a goddess, but outside of her universe she would be a chick with green hair. Ganondorf is the holder of the Triforce of Power, but outside of his universe he'd be a big dude holding a piece of scrap metal. If you are assuming they're on a battlefield where all of our physics apply, then none of these characters could do anything. They do rely on an "all-pervasive thing"... Palutena and Ganondorf's magic, Ness' PSI abilities... Without magic or PSI, like Ether, they're nothing.

An atomless universe has nothing to do with quantum mechanics. I'm not even going to pretend I know what quantum mechanics is or how it works. I already struggle with physics because I don't have a proper teaching of it. My example was to show that if I could control all the atoms in the Universe, it wouldn't mean anything to a being who exists in an atomless universe.

Quantum mechanics tells us how the things that make up atoms work... so yes, it has everything to do with an atomless universe because you're implying that none of it would apply, when above you said that these characters are fighting in a universe with physics similar to our own... By your logic, if Ness can control PSI in his own universe and was plopped into Xenoblade, he wouldn't be able to do anything. Vice versa with Shulk. Sonic would be moving so fast he would be unable to breathe, the entire planet would be ravaged by the damage he leaves behind, and his tendons/joints would rip themselves apart. But here, in the battledome, their powers apply. Why would we not let them fight with their powers...?

If not then Bowser would stomp everyone because he's a nine foot tall, 2600 lbs lizard and no one would be able to scratch him.

Ether in our world may contain oxygen, but so does CO2 (carbon dioxide). It doesn't mean that it's dioxygen (O2), or air (which contains too many atoms). Ether isn't oxygen in the same way aspartame isn't aspartic acid. Does aspartame contain aspartic acid? Yes. It doesn't mean the two are the same, however. Of course, ether in our universe is different from ether in the Xenoblade universe. It has various properties where pinning it down makes it difficult.

Ether in our world contains oxygen. I never claimed it was dioxygen or anything of the sort. I said that ether contains oxygen. In our universe, Shulk could do whatever he wanted because he manipulates ether. And since we're fighting using our universe, he would blinkstomp the entire cast. He'd turn them into tuna sandwiches or turn their weapons into liquid or simply will them out of existence.

And no, "of course" ether isn't different. You don't know that. That's my point. If you're going to say "X doesn't work but Y and Z do because that's just the way it is", then your argument holds no credibility.

That's fine. The way I see it, a character harmed by an attack is an indicator that the developers intended for said character to be vulnerable to said attack. Being able to bury through solid rock at high speeds is impressive.

Indeed. I'm just saying there's no way that a Squirtle beats an Arceus.

 

[Munomario777]

I don't have to, not instantly dieing when Kirby hits them is enough proof.

You have yet to prove that Kirby is always using that strength.

Well he did, and Kirby still won. It's been confirmed that he did have and used that power in the fight. Kirby is just really really powerful.

Kirby is part of the universe. If his foe has complete control over the universe (and isn't holding back), then there is logically no way that Kirby will win.

The monster was around 6-8 times the size of Kirby, didn't you watch the video

Yes, I did. Kirby is lightweight; he's a puffball. The foe here seems to consist of multiple puffballs.

Since when was this supposed to make sense, it's a video game. If your argument for why Kirby isn't strong enough to do this is because it doesn't follow laws of physics it's pathetic. It's also against the laws of physics for something to travel faster than the speed of light, but Sonic still does it.

If something makes no sense, I will attempt to make sense of it. Otherwise, I simply cannot take it into account. The explanation I provided makes some sense based on Kirby's universe, so that's what I will work with. The laws of physics prohibit light speed travel unless you either have infinite energy or no mass. There are a few explanations here:

• Sonic is massless during the travel, but regains mass upon impact.
• The Light Speed Shoes contain infinite energy.
• Sonic is simply traveling just below light speed.

The third explanation makes sense and is based on the fewest assumptions, so I will work with that.

That was the whole point of MWW, Kirby had to stop the sun and the moon from fighting.

Yes, but I see no proof that the sun and the moon are in a different place when they're not fighting.

 

[monzer]

@ Munomario777
I'm not going to convince you that Kirby would win. You're not going to convince me that Sonic would win. This whole thing is pointless, we might as well just agree to disagree like before and call it a tie.