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Who's Canonically the Strongest Character in Smash?

Sodo

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"The choice is yours." "Tell me your decision." The choice is Shulk's, but not the power. The power belongs to Alvis, which is why Shulk has to tell Alvis his decision (as a king commands an army). Shulk also words it by saying that he "wishes" for ____. It's like he's commanding a genie. In addition, all Shulk seems to do is state his "wish" and throw the sword up into the air, whereas the beams of light (presumably representing the power) stems from Alvis (I assume he's represented by the three floating swords). Shulk has the authority to change the world, but not the actual power to do so.
If you've ever seen the Matrix, you'll understand the analogy I'm about to make because it makes perfect sense.

Shulk is Neo, Zanza is Agent Smith, and Alvis is the Architect. Zanza/Agent Smith are the ultimate powers in their respective universes, while Shulk/Neo have the power to reshape reality to their will. The Architect/Alvis are merely figureheads, they don't ever actually do anything, they are computers and leave that up to fate and whatever happens. Alvis asked Shulk what he wanted to do, but it's implied that Shulk could literally have done anything he wanted. Had he not thrown away godhood, he could have reshaped the universe and become the new Zanza, which he obviously didn't want. If you haven't seen the Matrix none of this will make sense haha but it's the best analogy I could find.

If this ability relies on ether, then Shulk isn't going to be able to harm anyone unless there is something like ether these other universes. You also didn't answer my question about the Monado being unable to harm humans.[/spoiler]
This is an obvious no limits fallacy.

So if Shulk didn't want to be
a god
, then it's not part of his MO to go around reality warping people off the face of the planet.
Exactly. I already said with morals on, he would at least entertain the fight and probably joke around before slicing them in half with Monado III, which destroyed a future-seeing limitless god. With morals off, Shulk blinks and the opponent is whisked from reality.

You've yet to prove this. Samus has precognition of her own. She's able to react faster than Shulk, having a reaction time ranging anywhere between 2 to 10 milliseconds. If Shulk can't keep up with that, then Samus' reaction time is going to counter vision.
That's not precognition, that's a crazy fast reaction time. Being able to predict what happens before it even happens > reaction time. Samus wouldn't be able to touch Shulk, let alone hurt him.

Monado Purge removes the opponent's aura. Unless Shulk's opponent has an aura (and if we're using elemental compatibility here to equalize everything), it won't work.
Again, this is a no limits fallacy.

What's the "higher levels"?
Reshaping reality.

Also, again, if Shulk gave up godhood, then we can pass that off in this match.
@ Munomario777 Munomario777 stated that we're taking the most powerful incarnation of each character. This version of Shulk is the most powerful and blinkstomps the entire cast with ease.
 
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Munomario777

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If you've ever seen the Matrix, you'll understand the analogy I'm about to make because it makes perfect sense.

Shulk is Neo, Zanza is Agent Smith, and Alvis is the Architect. Zanza/Agent Smith are the ultimate powers in their respective universes, while Shulk/Neo have the power to reshape reality to their will. The Architect/Alvis are merely figureheads, they don't ever actually do anything, they are computers and leave that up to fate and whatever happens. Alvis asked Shulk what he wanted to do, but it's implied that Shulk could literally have done anything he wanted. Had he not thrown away godhood, he could have reshaped the universe and become the new Zanza, which he obviously didn't want. If you haven't seen the Matrix none of this will make sense haha but it's the best analogy I could find.
I haven't, so I have absolutely no idea what you're talking about. :p When is it implied that Shulk had the power to do whatever he wanted without Alvis's presence?
This is an obvious no limits fallacy.
I don't see how it is. If Shulk's abilities rely on ether, then in an ether-free environment, they'd be unusable, no?
Exactly. I already said with morals on, he would at least entertain the fight and probably joke around before slicing them in half with Monado III, which destroyed a future-seeing limitless god. With morals off, Shulk blinks and the opponent is whisked from reality.
"Destroying a god" means nothing in terms of power, just as "being a god" doesn't prove anything. Otherwise, Pit and Palutena may as well be top tier.
That's not precognition, that's a crazy fast reaction time. Being able to predict what happens before it even happens > reaction time. Samus wouldn't be able to touch Shulk, let alone hurt him.
Seeing something that will happen =/= being able to actually prevent it from happening. Samus can run at the speed of sound via the Speed Booster, and if I'm not mistaken, she can accelerate to these speeds very quickly. Has Shulk been shown to have sufficient reaction time (he still needs to react to his vision) and dodging capabilities?
Reshaping reality.
How exactly does he "reshape reality"? It's too far vague to work with.
@ Munomario777 Munomario777 stated that we're taking the most powerful incarnation of each character. This version of Shulk is the most powerful and blinkstomps the entire cast with ease.
This version of Shulk also removes himself from this state the minute he enters it.
 

Crystanium

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This is an obvious no limits fallacy.
It's clearly not "obvious" to me. Since these characters lack ether, there's no reason to impose ether on them. If my original character lacked a soul (and she does), the claws of Hades from God of War wouldn't affect her, since the weapon relies on the presence of a soul. So it is with ether.

Exactly. I already said with morals on, he would at least entertain the fight and probably joke around before slicing them in half with Monado III, which destroyed a future-seeing limitless god. With morals off, Shulk blinks and the opponent is whisked from reality.
I never said anything about morals. I said modus operandi. If wouldn't matter if Shulk was a murderous fiend. If he wasn't warping people out of existence, then it wouldn't be part of his MO.

That's not precognition, that's a crazy fast reaction time. Being able to predict what happens before it even happens > reaction time. Samus wouldn't be able to touch Shulk, let alone hurt him.
Samus has an ability called "sense move". The Chozo possess psionic abilities, just like the Luminoth. One of the abilities is known as distant sight, which allowed for the Chozo on planet Tallon IV to see the future. Because Samus was integrated with Chozo DNA at the age of three, it is not out of place for her to possess similar traits. Her ability to activate her power suit relies on "mental energy unfathomable to an ordinary person". (Yoshio Sakamoto, Metroid FAQ)

I've compared sense move to Spider-Man's spider sense. While Samus can react to objects traveling at supersonic speeds, I've presented my argument several pages ago where Samus can dodge lasers, not because of nanosecond reaction time, but because of sense move.

Since Samus and Shulk would be relying on precognition, considering Samus is faster, she would get the best of Shulk. Of course, this is assuming Shulk can experience vision, since that relies on ether, which Samus doesn't rely on and can live perfectly without.

Again, this is a no limits fallacy.
No it's not. This universe doesn't take place in the Xenoblade universe. No character has an advantage and will be unable to use any abilities that relies on some presence to be used. For example, since these battles don't take place on a universe where midi-chlorians exist, it's not like Darth Vader would be able to use force choke.

Reshaping reality.
With the aid of Alvis, if that's what you're referring to.

@ Munomario777 Munomario777 stated that we're taking the most powerful incarnation of each character. This version of Shulk is the most powerful and blinkstomps the entire cast with ease.
That never happened.
 

Munomario777

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Here's the rundown on ether. It's referred to as the basic building blocks of life in the Xenoblade universe, although I've also heard that it's specifically needed for everything to survive on Bionis (one of the locations in Xenoblade; specifically, one of the giant robots). While this seems to indicate that it's exclusive to Xenoblade characters, there's also the "all games share one universe" theory and all. I do subscribe to that theory, and although I haven't been able to find any links from Xenoblade to other games (or vice-versa), I decided to look at the specifics. There appear to be these things called "Ether Crystals", which are, simply put, ether in a solid form. Apparently these crystals can also be mined, as one would with most gemstones. Since most fighters don't use a life force that takes the form of a crystal, or a life force that looks like this:

we can assume that it's not ether, and that Shulk's techniques don't work here.
 

Sodo

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I haven't, so I have absolutely no idea what you're talking about. :p When is it implied that Shulk had the power to do whatever he wanted without Alvis's presence?
Yeah so it wouldn't make any sense to you hahaha. Put it this way... Alvis doesn't do anything for Shulk. He's an embodiment of the Monado, he's the "computer", and Shulk is the user. Shulk can literally do whatever he wants at the end of the game, that's the point.

I don't see how it is. If Shulk's abilities rely on ether, then in an ether-free environment, they'd be unusable, no?
Who is to say they are? What if ether is their way of referring to molecules or particles, which it basically is? Does that mean that any of Ganondorf's continental reality warping wouldn't work? How would Link's invincible armor react to Ike's god-slaying sword hitting it? Could Mega Man stop time to slow down Sonic, or would Sonic be moving too fast for it to matter? Would Ness be able to absorb a shot from the Star Rod used by Bowser? You don't know the exact physics behind the answers, but we entertain them. You're going to get different answers from everyone, and who knows what's right? That's the point of the exercise. Of course I'm assuming Shulk has the full extent of his powers, isn't that what we're debating? Why would I think Shulk could win if he couldn't use the Monado?

"Destroying a god" means nothing in terms of power, just as "being a god" doesn't prove anything. Otherwise, Pit and Palutena may as well be top tier.
Neither of them have displayed feats that Shulk have, or defeated anyone like Zanza.

Seeing something that will happen =/= being able to actually prevent it from happening. Samus can run at the speed of sound via the Speed Booster, and if I'm not mistaken, she can accelerate to these speeds very quickly. Has Shulk been shown to have sufficient reaction time (he still needs to react to his vision) and dodging capabilities?
Speed + precog basically renders any attack inert. Before Samus even knows what she's going to do, Shulk is already gone and attacking again. Here's just one example:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZfdHEcywkJY&feature=youtu.be&t=44s

How exactly does he "reshape reality"? It's too far vague to work with.
Reality warpers are an odd bunch, I'll give you that. How do they do what they do? How does Mr. Mxyzptlk restructure reality? How does The Beyonder do the same? Who knows, they're universal level reality warpers. They're powerful on an abstract level, we're not supposed to understand it because we can't even fathom how it happens. At least with Shulk, you have an answer. The Monado, and Shulk's master over it, are what give him such immense power.

This version of Shulk also removes himself from this state the minute he enters it.
That's the point of the game, is that Shulk breaks the endless cycle of goodhood and destruction and remaking the universe. He didn't want to deal with it. He had infinite, limitless power and chose to discard it. It doesn't mean it's not his most powerful incarnation.


I never said anything about morals. I said modus operandi. If wouldn't matter if Shulk was a murderous fiend. If he wasn't warping people out of existence, then it wouldn't be part of his MO.
It doesn't matter, he'd still win. I don't really know how else to tell you haha. The MO doesn't matter, it's whether he wants to win now or later.

Samus has an ability called "sense move". The Chozo possess psionic abilities, just like the Luminoth. One of the abilities is known as distant sight, which allowed for the Chozo on planet Tallon IV to see the future. Because Samus was integrated with Chozo DNA at the age of three, it is not out of place for her to possess similar traits. Her ability to activate her power suit relies on "mental energy unfathomable to an ordinary person". (Yoshio Sakamoto, Metroid FAQ)
I've compared sense move to Spider-Man's spider sense. While Samus can react to objects traveling at supersonic speeds, I've presented my argument several pages ago where Samus can dodge lasers, not because of nanosecond reaction time, but because of sense move.
That's an interesting power, but Shulk does the exact same thing... and regardless Samus won't be able to hit Shulk, or hard enough for it to matter. Shulk will blink and she'll be gone from existence.

Since Samus and Shulk would be relying on precognition, considering Samus is faster, she would get the best of Shulk. Of course, this is assuming Shulk can experience vision, since that relies on ether, which Samus doesn't rely on and can live perfectly without.
She's not faster than Shulk, she can send a barrage of anything she wants and it's not going to matter. None of them would hit, and even if they did none would be strong enough to hurt. Samus is an advanced human in a powersuit, Shulk is a god.

No it's not. This universe doesn't take place in the Xenoblade universe. No character has an advantage and will be unable to use any abilities that relies on some presence to be used. For example, since these battles don't take place on a universe where midi-chlorians exist, it's not like Darth Vader would be able to use force choke.
It's clearly not "obvious" to me. Since these characters lack ether, there's no reason to impose ether on them. If my original character lacked a soul (and she does), the claws of Hades from God of War wouldn't affect her, since the weapon relies on the presence of a soul. So it is with ether.
It doesn't take place in the Metroid universe either, so how are you going to argue that her connection to Tallon IV is relevant but Shulk's abilities aren't?

With the aid of Alvis, if that's what you're referring to.
Shulk is the user. He initiated the change. Not Alvis. Alvis didn't do anything.

That never happened.
But that's what would happen. The entire cast would show up, an equal length away from Shulk at the beginning of the fight. When Shulk blinked, he would restructure reality and the fight would be over. Blinkstomp. 10/10 Shulk.
 
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Munomario777

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Yeah so it wouldn't make any sense to you hahaha. Put it this way... Alvis doesn't do anything for Shulk. He's an embodiment of the Monado, he's the "computer", and Shulk is the user. Shulk can literally do whatever he wants at the end of the game, that's the point.
So if Alvis is like a computer, I have an analogy. Bob is the user of a computer that's hooked up to a powerful weapons system (say, a tank). Bob can fire that weapons system whenever he wants if he's near the computer, but if he's not, Bob cannot use the weapons system. The same thing applies here. Shulk can do whatever he wants, but only because Alvis is there to execute Shulk's "wishes".
Who is to say they are? What if ether is their way of referring to molecules or particles, which it basically is?
Ether doesn't represent all molecules/particles; see my above post on the subject.
Does that mean that any of Ganondorf's continental reality warping wouldn't work?
No, because it doesn't rely on a specific substance unique to his universe.
How would Link's invincible armor react to Ike's god-slaying sword hitting it?
Probably pretty well; IIRC it can block hits from Ganon (most certainly his minions).
Could Mega Man stop time to slow down Sonic, or would Sonic be moving too fast for it to matter?
The speed of an object is irrelevant to time stopping, as it literally stops time. Motion is not a factor.
Would Ness be able to absorb a shot from the Star Rod used by Bowser?
I'm not an EarthBound expert, so I'm not sure. Bowser doesn't get the Star Rod, by the way.
You don't know the exact physics behind the answers, but we entertain them. You're going to get different answers from everyone, and who knows what's right? That's the point of the exercise.
The point of the exercise is to A) enjoy ourselves and B) logically analyze the games to determine who's the strongest.
Of course I'm assuming Shulk has the full extent of his powers, isn't that what we're debating? Why would I think Shulk could win if he couldn't use the Monado?
However, the extent of Shulk's powers isn't reshaping reality, let alone without ether.
Neither of them have displayed feats that Shulk have, or defeated anyone like Zanza.
What sort of feats are you referring to?
Speed + precog basically renders any attack inert. Before Samus even knows what she's going to do, Shulk is already gone and attacking again. Here's just one example:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZfdHEcywkJY&feature=youtu.be&t=44s
There was a few seconds before the vision and the actual tentacle popping out, which gives us our reaction time. On the other hand, an object moving at the speed of sound (like Samus) will cross a distance of ten yards (about the distance fighters will start from one another) in about .02 seconds. That's literally faster than a blink of an eye, and certainly much faster than Shulk is capable of reacting to.
Reality warpers are an odd bunch, I'll give you that. How do they do what they do? How does Mr. Mxyzptlk restructure reality? How does The Beyonder do the same? Who knows, they're universal level reality warpers. They're powerful on an abstract level, we're not supposed to understand it because we can't even fathom how it happens. At least with Shulk, you have an answer. The Monado, and Shulk's master over it, are what give him such immense power.
Allow me to rephrase. What exactly does Shulk do with this power? Does he blink people out of existence? Does he turn hills into craters? Does he create Swiss cheese out of thin air?
That's the point of the game, is that Shulk breaks the endless cycle of goodhood and destruction and remaking the universe. He didn't want to deal with it. He had infinite, limitless power and chose to discard it. It doesn't mean it's not his most powerful incarnation.
If it was his most powerful incarnation (even though it relies on Alvis), he will still never use it as he prefers not to be a god, and strongly believes in a world without them. You simply cannot pry the personality away from the character.
She's not faster than Shulk, she can send a barrage of anything she wants and it's not going to matter. None of them would hit, and even if they did none would be strong enough to hurt.
Except Shulk has never demonstrated sufficient reaction time; see above.
Samus is an advanced human in a powersuit, Shulk is a god.
Correction, Shulk is a human with god-like authority.
It doesn't take place in the Metroid universe either, so how are you going to argue that her connection to Tallon IV is relevant but Shulk's abilities aren't?
Samus is part Chozo. It's part of her physical being and character, so it comes with her. Ether is an attribute of Shulk's universe, rather than Shulk himself (at least, the ether that allows him to manipulate things), so it doesn't come with him.
Shulk is the user. He initiated the change. Not Alvis. Alvis didn't do anything.
Going back to my previous example, Bob is the user, but the computer (and the tank) does all the work.
But that's what would happen. The entire cast would show up, an equal length away from Shulk at the beginning of the fight. When Shulk blinked, he would restructure reality and the fight would be over. Blinkstomp. 10/10 Shulk.
When has Shulk ever blinked fifty-plus people out of existence?
 

Crystanium

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Speed + precog basically renders any attack inert. Before Samus even knows what she's going to do, Shulk is already gone and attacking again. Here's just one example:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZfdHEcywkJY&feature=youtu.be&t=44s
Please prove the speed of the tentacles is on par with Samus' speed.

It doesn't matter, he'd still win. I don't really know how else to tell you haha. The MO doesn't matter, it's whether he wants to win now or later.
You haven't proved this, which is why we're still here. Again, vision doesn't necessarily mean Shulk can prevent something from occurring, as in the case with Fiora being harmed by Metal Face. My calculation of the power bomb presents a yield of 396.96 tons of TNT, ignoring the fact that half of the blast radius still covers 30 meters. The later would result in 3 kilotons if I calculate it this way. As far as I'm aware, Shulk has never survived a nuclear explosion.

That's an interesting power, but Shulk does the exact same thing... and regardless Samus won't be able to hit Shulk, or hard enough for it to matter. Shulk will blink and she'll be gone from existence.
Why wouldn't Samus be able to hit Shulk? She can run Mach 1.41 and fly at Mach 2. Using force, which is mass multiplied by acceleration, a clear hit from Samus' shinespark would generate 61,740 newtons. This is ignoring my calculation concerning the mass of Samus' power suit. Here, acceleration would be equal to velocity, since shinesparking doesn't require acceleration like the speed booster. 61,740 newtons is equal to 6.94 tons-force.

Samus' missiles are military-grade, according to the scan concerning cordite, which says it can take multiple hits from military-grade missiles, yet, a single super missile will destroy it instantly. No surprise when that's supposed to be five times as powerful as a normal missile. Also, in super metroid, we can see that the super missile travels faster than the shinespark, which would place the super missile at least somewhere between Mach 3 and Mach 4. It's worth noting that Samus can also launch four normal missile and one super missile at once with the seeker missile.

Until you can prove Shulk can or that Shulk would "blink" anyone out of existence, your conclusion is baseless.

She's not faster than Shulk, she can send a barrage of anything she wants and it's not going to matter. None of them would hit, and even if they did none would be strong enough to hurt. Samus is an advanced human in a powersuit, Shulk is a god.
Samus travels Mach 2 at top speed with the shinespark and Mach 1.41 just by activating the speed booster. When has Shulk ever moved that fast. Also, if Samus can dodge supersonic projectiles, then that would mean her body must move out of the way, which means she must be able to move her limbs at the same rate, which means Shulk isn't going to harm Samus, even if vision was useable because her reaction time would top his after both have experienced precognition.

It doesn't take place in the Metroid universe either, so how are you going to argue that her connection to Tallon IV is relevant but Shulk's abilities aren't?
Vision relies on the ether of another, whether good or bad. Samus' sense move only relies on the presence of danger, which I'm sure Shulk would be considered dangerous.

Shulk is the user. He initiated the change. Not Alvis. Alvis didn't do anything.
All Shulk did was wish for a universe without gods and threw the Monado up. Alvis did the rest. It's essentially a person pressing a button to activate something and the system doing the rest. Except, Alvis is a conscious, self-aware entity, and that would be outside help.

But that's what would happen. The entire cast would show up, an equal length away from Shulk at the beginning of the fight. When Shulk blinked, he would restructure reality and the fight would be over. Blinkstomp. 10/10 Shulk.
That's yet to be supported. I'll wait.
 

Sodo

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So if Alvis is like a computer, I have an analogy. Bob is the user of a computer that's hooked up to a powerful weapons system (say, a tank). Bob can fire that weapons system whenever he wants if he's near the computer, but if he's not, Bob cannot use the weapons system. The same thing applies here. Shulk can do whatever he wants, but only because Alvis is there to execute Shulk's "wishes".
Alvis is the Monado... that's what I've been trying to say. Alvis is the embodiment of the Monado, and Shulk has mastered the Monado. He can literally do whatever he wants. It's accepted by every single person that's completed the game that Shulk is the one reshaping reality.

The other bits of our post were irrelevant here, but I will say that you thinking Link's invincible armor stands up to Ike's god-slaying sword once again points to another fallacy. You don't know the answer, you're speculating. But then again, none of us know the answer to any of these questions, so I'll take the character that rewrites time as it goes on.

When has Shulk ever blinked fifty-plus people out of existence?
He can do literally whatever he wants. Just like he restructured the universe and reality itself, he could blink and every character would disappear. Or turn into donuts, or have feet for hands, or be made of chewing gum. It doesn't matter, it's up to Shulk.

You haven't proved this, which is why we're still here. Again, vision doesn't necessarily mean Shulk can prevent something from occurring, as in the case with Fiora being harmed by Metal Face. My calculation of the power bomb presents a yield of 396.96 tons of TNT, ignoring the fact that half of the blast radius still covers 30 meters. The later would result in 3 kilotons if I calculate it this way. As far as I'm aware, Shulk has never survived a nuclear explosion. Why wouldn't Samus be able to hit Shulk? She can run Mach 1.41 and fly at Mach 2. Using force, which is mass multiplied by acceleration, a clear hit from Samus' shinespark would generate 61,740 newtons. This is ignoring my calculation concerning the mass of Samus' power suit. Here, acceleration would be equal to velocity, since shinesparking doesn't require acceleration like the speed booster. 61,740 newtons is equal to 6.94 tons-force. Samus' missiles are military-grade, according to the scan concerning cordite, which says it can take multiple hits from military-grade missiles, yet, a single super missile will destroy it instantly. No surprise when that's supposed to be five times as powerful as a normal missile. Also, in super metroid, we can see that the super missile travels faster than the shinespark, which would place the super missile at least somewhere between Mach 3 and Mach 4. It's worth noting that Samus can also launch four normal missile and one super missile at once with the seeker missile. Samus travels Mach 2 at top speed with the shinespark and Mach 1.41 just by activating the speed booster. When has Shulk ever moved that fast. Also, if Samus can dodge supersonic projectiles, then that would mean her body must move out of the way, which means she must be able to move her limbs at the same rate, which means Shulk isn't going to harm Samus, even if vision was useable because her reaction time would top his after both have experienced precognition.

Until you can prove Shulk can or that Shulk would "blink" anyone out of existence, your conclusion is baseless.
I'm sorry you wrote all of that, because none of it means anything. Mach 1.41 speed and 6.94 tons of force don't mean anything when someone could rearrange your head to be attached to your bottom or to have your missiles turn into butterflies. It doesn't matter what Samus does, Shulk literally just has to think and she's gone. That's it. What is her defense against that? She doesn't have one.

Vision relies on the ether of another, whether good or bad. Samus' sense move only relies on the presence of danger, which I'm sure Shulk would be considered dangerous.
With or without it, it won't save her unfortunately. She could be 10x stronger and faster than she is now and she still wouldn't be able to scratch Shulk, let alone reach him on the battlefield before she's turned to dust.

All Shulk did was wish for a universe without gods and threw the Monado up. Alvis did the rest. It's essentially a person pressing a button to activate something and the system doing the rest. Except, Alvis is a conscious, self-aware entity, and that would be outside help.
Alvis is the embodiment of the Monado, which Shulk controls and has mastery over.

That's yet to be supported. I'll wait.
If he can restructure an entire universe there's nothing to stop him from just turning every character into a block of cheese or a bunch of rabbits. I say he blinks them away because that's what would make the most sense, but really he could do whatever he wants. There's nothing anyone could do about it. He's a universal level reality warper. Samus is an advanced human in a powersuit.

Again, I'm doing this purely for enjoyment. I am aware Shulk is hilariously overpowered and I used some context to make light of that. I don't even like the character or his game that much, but it's seriously ridiculous how powerful he becomes. In the Marvel Universe, he'd be on the level of the Beyonder.

EDIT: Just for reference, you can take a look at r/smashbros canon "tier list" and see what they came up with. It's a good read. https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/2tkxp3/a_different_casual_style_tier_list_canonsource/
 
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Munomario777

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Alvis is the Monado... that's what I've been trying to say. Alvis is the embodiment of the Monado, and Shulk has mastered the Monado. He can literally do whatever he wants. It's accepted by every single person that's completed the game that Shulk is the one reshaping reality.
Then how exactly does Alvis hold the Monado, and why does he refer to it in the third person ("the Monado is _____")?
The other bits of our post were irrelevant here, but I will say that you thinking Link's invincible armor stands up to Ike's god-slaying sword once again points to another fallacy. You don't know the answer, you're speculating. But then again, none of us know the answer to any of these questions, so I'll take the character that rewrites time as it goes on.
Magic Armor can block swords much larger (and thus more powerful) than Ragnell.
He can do literally whatever he wants. Just like he restructured the universe and reality itself, he could blink and every character would disappear. Or turn into donuts, or have feet for hands, or be made of chewing gum. It doesn't matter, it's up to Shulk.

I'm sorry you wrote all of that, because none of it means anything. Mach 1.41 speed and 6.94 tons of force don't mean anything when someone could rearrange your head to be attached to your bottom or to have your missiles turn into butterflies. It doesn't matter what Samus does, Shulk literally just has to think and she's gone. That's it. What is her defense against that? She doesn't have one.

With or without it, it won't save her unfortunately. She could be 10x stronger and faster than she is now and she still wouldn't be able to scratch Shulk, let alone reach him on the battlefield before she's turned to dust.
You have yet to prove this.

Also, if Shulk is trying to "blink" Samus out of existence, tough luck; blinking takes .30 seconds, and Samus would reach Shulk in .02 seconds. Of course, this is ignoring the fact that Shulk doesn't have these powers to begin with; Alvis does.
Alvis is the embodiment of the Monado, which Shulk controls and has mastery over.
"Monado" the sword and "Monado" in reference to Alvis are two separate entities. As put by a user on the Xenoblade Wiki:
Alvis is Monado, because Monado is actually the system that was used during Zanza's experiment (Alvis is another name for the experiment). Therefore, when they said that the Monado has the capability to change the world, it is proven true since it actually did.
Alvis is the Monado's embodiment, yes, but not the Monado that Shulk uses.
If he can restructure an entire universe there's nothing to stop him from just turning every character into a block of cheese or a bunch of rabbits. I say he blinks them away because that's what would make the most sense, but really he could do whatever he wants. There's nothing anyone could do about it. He's a universal level reality warper. Samus is an advanced human in a powersuit.
Shulk doesn't do that. Alvis does.
 

Crystanium

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It doesn't matter what Samus does, Shulk literally just has to think and she's gone.
You keep repeating yourself, but you haven't proved this.

With or without it, it won't save her unfortunately. She could be 10x stronger and faster than she is now and she still wouldn't be able to scratch Shulk, let alone reach him on the battlefield before she's turned to dust.
This is an assertion.

Alvis is the embodiment of the Monado, which Shulk controls and has mastery over.
The Triforce is the power of the goddesses, which Link controls and has mastery over. Because Alvis is conscious and self-aware, this means he is his own person, which means he's outside help.

If he can restructure an entire universe there's nothing to stop him from just turning every character into a block of cheese or a bunch of rabbits. I say he blinks them away because that's what would make the most sense, but really he could do whatever he wants. There's nothing anyone could do about it. He's a universal level reality warper. Samus is an advanced human in a powersuit.
It's not his MO to do this. He didn't want to be a god. He only wished for a world without gods, which is all he did and never demonstrated this ever again. No ether, no problem.

Again, I'm doing this purely for enjoyment. I am aware Shulk is hilariously overpowered and I used some context to make light of that. I don't even like the character or his game that much, but it's seriously ridiculous how powerful he becomes. In the Marvel Universe, he'd be on the level of the Beyonder.
What your intentions are, are irrelevant to me. All I want is for you to prove your conclusions, not assert them.

EDIT: Just for reference, you can take a look at r/smashbros canon "tier list" and see what they came up with. It's a good read. https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/2tkxp3/a_different_casual_style_tier_list_canonsource/
Interesting list, but you know there's a problem when Samus is above Sonic. Palutena has never demonstrated anything worthwhile for her to be above Samus. She's above Pit by virtue of rank. Rosalina's argument probably relied on the notion that she reset the universe. Ness is above Zero Suit Samus, which I find rather funny. They probably are using your post-Magicant Ness. I wonder why Young Link is above Link. Then again, they're probably not using composite forms. Ganondorf should be higher, but they're working on the idea that he needn't be killed, just incapacitated. Even with incapacitation, I'm not sure how Ganondorf is supposed to be that low. Mario should be higher.
 
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Sodo

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You keep repeating yourself, but you haven't proved this.
I already did. The video shows Shulk restructure the universe at the 6 minute mark.

The Triforce is the power of the goddesses, which Link controls and has mastery over. Because Alvis is conscious and self-aware, this means he is his own person, which means he's outside help.
Alvis didn't recreate the universe, Shulk did. Literally everyone that has played and finished the game acknowledges this.

It's not his MO to do this. He didn't want to be a god. He only wished for a world without gods, which is all he did and never demonstrated this ever again. No ether, no problem.
Exactly, I'm not saying this is his current incarnation. But it is his most powerful, and he blinkstomps the entire cast away if that's the case. Post-game Shulk is an entirely different character.

What your intentions are, are irrelevant to me. All I want is for you to prove your conclusions, not assert them.
No need to be hostile, hahahahaha. This is a fun spirited discussion. I feel like you may be taking things personally by my posts. All I'm saying is Samus (and the rest of the cast for that matter) really don't stand a chance. You may disagree, and that's fine. Relax.

Then how exactly does Alvis hold the Monado, and why does he refer to it in the third person ("the Monado is _____")?
Alvis created the universe pre-Zanza, he is Monado. I can't take credit for this paragraph, but it perfectly sums up what exactly happens in the game:

Shulk's will and personality are developed independently of Zanza. But also, it seems by virtue of being Zanza's host, he develops additional abilities and powers beyond what Zanza intended or realized. When Zanza is released, Shulk continues to live because he has developed his own "Monado" within. Not because he was born special, but because fate made him Zanza's host, and because of the strength of his own will.

This seemed to be a running theme - a creation or student developing independent will, thought and abilities beyond those given by a creator or taught by a master. So Shulk can eventually overcome Dickson, and can develop his own Monado and will apart from Zanza, the same way the High Entia can decide to escape their fate as Telethia, or Homs can develop independent thought and defy "God" and destiny.

Shulk essentially gains administrative privileges, his own "key", to the Alvis program, but his final direction is apparently one to let the beings that are created to determine for themselves the world they'll live in. I.e. let life and creation develop independently through evolution and chaos, without any "God" or administrator controlling things.
Also, if Shulk is trying to "blink" Samus out of existence, tough luck; blinking takes .30 seconds, and Samus would reach Shulk in .02 seconds. Of course, this is ignoring the fact that Shulk doesn't have these powers to begin with; Alvis does.
Blink is just a reference to time. If you want to be technical, the instant the battle starts, Shulk wins. As in, he will literally just write the battle his own way and end everyone else where they stand. It could be one character, or the entire cast. Shulk will literally will it to be and then win the battle.

You guys seem to be focused on there being a physical confrontation, which there wouldn't be. It would be over before Shulk's opponent ever even considered making a move.
 

Munomario777

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I already did. The video shows Shulk restructure the universe at the 6 minute mark.
No, it shows Shulk telling Alvis to recreate the universe at the six minute mark.
Alvis didn't recreate the universe, Shulk did. Literally everyone that has played and finished the game acknowledges this.
Ad populum won't work here. You'll need actual evidence. We've already provided evidence; now present yours.
Alvis created the universe pre-Zanza, he is Monado. I can't take credit for this paragraph, but it perfectly sums up what exactly happens in the game:
As I pointed out before, "Monado" seems to refer to two different entities; Alvis, the program used to destroy the universe and all that, and the Monado, Shulk's sword. They're not the same entity. I don't see what the excerpt you quoted does to prove otherwise.
Blink is just a reference to time.
In that case, it would still be .3 seconds, no?
If you want to be technical, the instant the battle starts, Shulk wins. As in, he will literally just write the battle his own way and end everyone else where they stand. It could be one character, or the entire cast. Shulk will literally will it to be and then win the battle.

You guys seem to be focused on there being a physical confrontation, which there wouldn't be. It would be over before Shulk's opponent ever even considered making a move.
We're using a specific set of conditions here. Both fighters start a certain distance apart in an arena, and they will start acting at the exact same time. The discussion is focused on physical confrontations because that's how we do things around here. And remember, if Shulk's opponent has to think about what to do, so does Shulk himself.
 

Sodo

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No, it shows Shulk telling Alvis to recreate the universe at the six minute mark. Ad populum won't work here. You'll need actual evidence. We've already provided evidence; now present yours.
I mean, you're literally the only two people I've seen who say it was Alvis, not Shulk. Regardless, it shows Shulk throwing his Monado into the air to begin the transformation. It was Shulk. It was his "key" to the universe.

In that case, it would still be .3 seconds, no? We're using a specific set of conditions here. Both fighters start a certain distance apart in an arena, and they will start acting at the exact same time. The discussion is focused on physical confrontations because that's how we do things around here. And remember, if Shulk's opponent has to think about what to do, so does Shulk himself.
Okay, so imagine the scenario. The two fighters enter the battldome. And then it's over. Because Shulk already turned them into dust. It's not a contest.
 

Munomario777

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I mean, you're literally the only two people I've seen who say it was Alvis, not Shulk.
Ad populum.
Regardless, it shows Shulk throwing his Monado into the air to begin the transformation. It was Shulk. It was his "key" to the universe.
Shulk throwing his Monado into the air is comparable to pressing a key on a computer. Both initiate an action, but cannot be done when Alvis/the computer is not present. Alvis reshaped the universe, and Shulk used his god status (in terms of authority, of course) to command him to do so.
Okay, so imagine the scenario. The two fighters enter the battldome. And then it's over. Because Shulk already turned them into dust. It's not a contest.
They start in the middle; there's no "walking in".
 

Sodo

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Ad populum.
Aren't you curious as to why you're the only people who think that? Regardless, it's a non-issue.

Shulk throwing his Monado into the air is comparable to pressing a key on a computer. Both initiate an action, but cannot be done when Alvis/the computer is not present. Alvis reshaped the universe, and Shulk used his god status (in terms of authority, of course) to command him to do so.
Alvis doesn't do it for Shulk, Shulk can literally do whatever he wants. You can start the video form about 5:30 on and end it at around 6:00. Alvis is curious as to what Shulk will do.

"Will you allow the world to stagnate?" as in, you can do whatever you want, but are you really going to let this happen?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X7uWsBqET9k

They start in the middle; there's no "walking in".
Kind of irrelevant. It's over no matter what the starting position is.
 

Munomario777

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Aren't you curious as to why you're the only people who think that? Regardless, it's a non-issue.
Not particularly.
Alvis doesn't do it for Shulk, Shulk can literally do whatever he wants.
...because of Alvis.
You can start the video form about 5:30 on and end it at around 6:00. Alvis is curious as to what Shulk will do.
Of course Alvis awaits Shulk's command; he's a computer, obeying a user. He's prompting Shulk to give him a command, just like your computer asks for the administrator password when you install a program that will "make changes to your computer".
"Will you allow the world to stagnate?" as in, you can do whatever you want, but are you really going to let this happen?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X7uWsBqET9k
The quote makes sense in either situation. If Shulk is commanding Alvis, then Alvis asks this because not telling Alvis to do anything will cause the world to stagnate. Shulk has the power to change the world, but the power here is in authority, not in true physical power.
Kind of irrelevant. It's over no matter what the starting position is.
It depends on how quickly Shulk can "blink" his opponent out of existence (ignoring that he can't here, that is). Watching the video, it seems like a rather lengthy process.
 

Crystanium

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I already did. The video shows Shulk restructure the universe at the 6 minute mark
The video shows Alvis asking what Shulk is going to do, has to persuade him by forming personalities of his friends, and Shulk thinks this wish shouldn't be his wish, but everyone's wish. He then proceeds to wish for a universe without gods, throws his monado upward with the other two present, and the rest is up to Alvis. For your argument to work, Shulk would have had to:

  • Prefer his decision over everyone's.
  • Blink the universe into existence on his own.
  • Make this his MO.
  • Rely on ether.

Shulk doesn't want to be a god. Shulk doesn't want to have to reset the universe by his own decision. He's plainly democratic on that point. He doesn't have a track record of blinking or willing people out of existence. He relies on ether for the Monado to function.

Alvis didn't recreate the universe, Shulk did. Literally everyone that has played and finished the game acknowledges this.
Shulk merely made the wish. Alvis did the rest, just like Link merely made the wish, the goddesses did the rest.

Exactly, I'm not saying this is his current incarnation. But it is his most powerful, and he blinkstomps the entire cast away if that's the case. Post-game Shulk is an entirely different character.
Most powerful? So when did Shulk will people out of existence in battle? I'm willing to bet never.

No need to be hostile, hahahahaha. This is a fun spirited discussion. I feel like you may be taking things personally by my posts. All I'm saying is Samus (and the rest of the cast for that matter) really don't stand a chance. You may disagree, and that's fine. Relax
I'm not hostile, I'm just being blunt about anyone's intentions. Your intentions, my intentions, Munomario777's intentions aren't relevant here. If we're all defending a character, no intention needs to be brought up. All that needs to be brought up are facts. Munomario777 likes Sonic. I like Samus. You like Shulk. There's nothing wrong with that, nor is there anything wrong with defending them for that specific reason.

I wouldn't care if someone said to me, "You're just saying that because you want Samus to win." Yes, yes I do. What's the issue? As long as facts are being laid out, that's all that matters. If one omits information, the best judgment is to assume that the omission is unintentional. That said, I've been relaxed.

Alvis created the universe pre-Zanza, he is Monado. I can't take credit for this paragraph, but it perfectly sums up what exactly happens in the game:
I'm not sure what you're trying to convey.

Blink is just a reference to time. If you want to be technical, the instant the battle starts, Shulk wins. As in, he will literally just write the battle his own way and end everyone else where they stand. It could be one character, or the entire cast. Shulk will literally will it to be and then win the battle.
I know what you mean. I just haven't seen anything convincing to accept.

You guys seem to be focused on there being a physical confrontation, which there wouldn't be. It would be over before Shulk's opponent ever even considered making a move.
That's not part of Shulk's MO.
 

Reckless Godwin 2.0

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Sorry for being gone so long! My worst fears came true when my PC refused to boot and just kept beeping at me. After performing some research with a burrowed Netbook, I had figured out the cause of this failure and previous system failures (this isn’t the first time this has happened, although the PC has recovered erratically the previous times) and lack of stability (System lockups, Blue screens of death from multiple causes, the Wireless USB adapter randomly losing power and connection, the PC as a whole running slowly). It turns out the PC’s 300 watt PSU (Power Supply Unit) had just died and the erratic symptoms above that have persisted for a year were caused by it being on it’s last legs. So I removed the offending piece of hardware and put an order in for a 450 watt replacement (about $30) on the 18th of this month. I received the replacement during the afternoon of the 24th and installed it the same day as well as replacing the CMOS battery which also failed (no more worrying about resetting the time). My computer runs much better and faster than it has in years and you can barely hear the new fan. I wonder how much I would have spent sending it to a PC repair shop?
Hopefully my experience can help you all with similar problems in the future.

In that case, should we allow invincibility frames?

You don't need to predict when you can react.

Oh, yikes! Do you at least have a mobile device to use?
No.

Circular reasoning!

No. I had to go cold turkey from the Internet because none of the PCs in reserve possess enough memory to run Firefox or Chrome without crashing (they need at least 512 MBs of RAM while the two best substitutes only had 256 MBs of RAM. Compare that with my fixed PC which has 1GB of RAM and renewed system stability.) The only contact I had with the internet during that time frame was by using my father’s Netbook to order a replacement PSU from Amazon.

Meta Cyclone doesn’t look like it would be great against the normal sized fighters.

None of Masked Dedede new attacks look like they would be game changing.

I'm sorry to hear that, hope you can find a replacement soon!
I didn’t replace the Tower PC, I only replaced the PC’s PSU (Power Supply Unit).

Let's say the United States has 50 armies. Of these, 49 are weaklings that can't even lift pebbles. The last army is strong enough to destroy mountains. The last army is an outlier. When the United States goes to war, is it going to avoid sending the last army, because it's an outlier?
Of course they are going to keep the one strong army home, sending it abroad would see the country fall to the Redneck Militias in days!

Anyways, finally got around to creating a tier list, because why not? Wins for a character are to their right, and everyone in the rows below them.

View attachment 58180
How does Olimar beat so many people? All the Fire Emblem characters can wreck Ganondorf and how is Ryu better than Falco and Wolf? Your tier list has lots of flaws.

Arceus basically created the universe and if you can create a universe you can sure as hell destroy it.
Just because you can create something doesn’t mean you can destroy it. Cronus may have sired Zeus, but he lost the war against him and his siblings. A universe could easily become greater in power than it’s creator once it starts to pick up inertia.

Does this mean that Mega Man's mega buster will only cause this much damage? No, but what it does show is the mechanics of lumites and Mega Man are similar. Also, that channeling reminds me of charging something, which I recall lumites do. Mega Man never charge in these games. Or at least from what I remember.
Mega Man has used charged shots in a few of his games.

Define "cosmic level". I'll list off some fighters I feel could defeat Shulk (at least based on my knowledge). I'd be glad to explain in more detail if you ask.
:4bowser: (Giant Bowser crushes Shulk in one hit, and visions won't help if he can't get out of the way in time)
:4falcon:(Blue Falcon's speed is way too much for Shulk to react to)
:4falco:(vehicle with lasers and bombs < no vehicle)
:4fox:(see Falco)
:4ganondorf:? (extreme durability even against his holy weapon weakness, but Shulk has one of those)
:4kirby:(decent durability and is a hard target thanks to being small, and Hypernova and the Warp Star give him quite the edge)
:4link:(Chateau Romani + Magic Armor = 3 day invincibility = win)
:4luigi:(Mega Mushroom; see Bowser)
:4mario:(see Luigi)
:4marth:(immune to all non-dragon attacks thanks to his sword, and Darksphere prevents foes from attacking via a form of mind control)
:4megaman:(can stop time to prepare an attack or dodge Shulk's, which is in a sense better than visions)
:4mewtwo:(Mega Mewtwo is extremely powerful, and in the anime even regular Mewtwo is a force to be reckoned with)
:4palutena:(while the name of "goddess" doesn't mean much, she still has the Powers which are very, well, powerful)
:4pit:(god slayer, and has the various weapons to help him out)
:rosalina:(black hole. /battle)
:4samus:(Power Bomb. /battle)
:4sonic:(Moves at hypersonic speeds, is invincible via Super Sonic, and the other things I've been saying for a while now)
:4tlink:(Doesn't have Chateau Romani, but still has the Magic Armor for invincibility)
Shulk beats Giant Mario, Luigi and Bowser the same way he beat Metal Face, Yaldabaoth, and Zanza, he blocks their attacks with his frightfully high strength and jumps on top of them to inflict massive damage.
He beats the Blue Falcon by jumping over it or by going prone and bisecting it as it goes by.
Team Star Fox falls because their charged shots can’t lock-on to personal and their Smart Bombs would be blocked by Monado Shield. They will have to close distance to get an acceptable hit rate with their twin lasers and then they will be in range of projectile Monado Arts. The Arwings don’t fly that long before returning to the Great Fox so Shulk can win that way as well.
Lol. Ganondorf won’t last five minutes if he tries to play tennis with Shulk.
Shulk has no trouble hitting flying insects or weak Bunnits so he should have no trouble hitting Kirby and Monado Cyclone should be able to get past his assorted guards. Hypernova is rendered useless by Solid Foundation or Good Footing Gems and Kirby has a tendency to crash the Warp Star when it’s near the ground and it doesn’t travel that fast anyway.
Adult Link’s Magic Armor runs off rupees not magic, so you must be thinking about Nayru‘s Love. Nayru’s Love doesn’t provide perfect invincibility (think lava) and it might fail against Monado Purge’s aura sealing capabilities, or just holding him in place for three days like he did to the Leone Telethia in east Makna Forest (Link still suffers knock-back and other secondary effects when he gets hit). There is also the fact that the Monado might be able to pierce his force field since he has no trouble cutting through Mechon and Zanza alike.
I’ve seen the Darksphere’s effects described two ways. It either possess the attacker’s mind to protect it’s bear from harm or shield it’s bear from harm. The second definition can likely be bested by Shulk’s Monado III due to it being on a much higher power tier and Shulk has proven to resist mind attacks so he might be able to get pass the first definition as well. I see no reason why the Monado can’t match the Lightsphere’s power to counteract the Darksphere.
Shulk will see the dirty trick ahead of time and will ensure Monado Armor is in place to ensure he survives the attack, or he wears a Spike gem that OHKOs Mega Man on the Blue Bomber’s first attack.
Shulk has already resisted divine grade mind control/psychic suggestion and has bested mind reading beasts (Telethia), so beating Mewtwo is still doable.
The only powers that Palutena has that are particularly dangerous to Shulk is her ability to turn him into a ring (might be blocked by Debuff Resist) and maybe Black Hole depending on exactly how it behaves. Her Power of Caging will fail because he will just slice his way out and all her normal attacks can be blocked, dodged, parried, reflected or shielded (Mega Laser, Explosive Flame). He also has a track record of killing deities.
Pit is just a far weaker Palutena with less durability, maneuverability and less capacity for powers, not to mention no divinity powers or omniscience.
Monado Cyclone, all the Lumas die, Rosalina dies soon after. Pit isn’t anymore of a god killer than Shulk is.
Power Bomb gets blocked by Monado Shield (massive explosions have a pitiful track record against Monado wielders, examples include the explosion that Jade Face causes at Mechonis Field and the blast that consumes Agniratha, not accounting for the smaller blasts that get blocked in gameplay by Shulk), though Samus probably still takes this as long as Shulk doesn’t catch her with Monado Purge.
Sonic moves at low speed and Super Sonic is easy meat for the Monado due to it’s god slaying capabilities and because Robotnik’s missiles can hurt him. Most of Sonic’s attacks involve slamming into Shulk at very high speeds similar to Avalanche Abaasy’s Ultra Air Crush X (http://xenoblade.wikia.com/wiki/Avalanche_Abaasy) will be negated by Monado Shield and then promptly punished as Sonic is recovering from his attacks blatant failure.
Toon Link doesn’t have invincible Magic Armor, as it is powered by rupees.

Basically Shulk has his high position thanks to his visions, versatile melee weapon, excellent Mechon based armor, excellent ether gem selection, excellent skill and skill link selections, health recovery via light heal, gems and skills, respectable durability, tons of damage mitigation in the form of the Monado Arts: Shield, Speed and Armor, and enough stamina to start a fight with a superboss at night (19:00-4:59), lose most effectiveness at sunrise (5:00), survive through the whole day (5:00-18:59) and then finish the boss off during the second night when the advantage shifts back to him.

Looks like I'll need to go into more detail.

Bowser's durability (especially in his giant form) is immense, and his size would allow him to crush someone like Shulk.

The Blue Falcon can travel at 457 km/h. Seeing the future is well and good and all, but can Shulk actually physically dodge things of that speed?

If I'm not mistaken, Mewtwo's giant laser beams can destroy entire islands. Has Shulk shown that level of durability?

Explain to me how Shulk would survive a Power Bomb (and the gunship as well; see Captain Falcon).

Explain how Shulk would deal with the invincible Mega Mushroom form.

Explain how Shulk survives the Mega Laser (which activates practically instantly and has multiple uses).

Sonic can move at hypersonic speeds. At a low end, that's Mach 5.5. At a high end, it can be up to Mach 25, but I'll work with 5.5 for now. That's 4,186 miles per hour, or fast enough to cross the entire ten-mile-wide arena in about eight seconds, or cross ten yards (about the distance the combatants start from one another) in less than a hundredth of a second, literally quicker than the blink of an eye. And that's not even taking into account the boost (which enhances Sonic's speed even further), the Light Speed Attack (does what it says on the tin), and the fact that Sonic can freeze time at will. Explain to me how Shulk is supposed to win this fight.

How is Shulk supposed to complete with an OHKO black hole?

No offense or anything of course, but I highly doubt that Shulk could defeat everyone you say that he could.
Shulk is a giant killer.

He can jump over or drop under him.

When does Mewtwo use Laser Beams (that might have been from the destruction of the lab rather than from Mewtwo)? Monado Shield.

Monado Shield

Same as Bowser.

Monado Shield

Sonic never freezes time and never goes far beyond Supersonic.

He kills her and the Lumas before she can finish forming a galaxy and she can't place them with any degree of accuracy.

You seriously underestimate him.

So, Shulk has the ability called "vision". Is this reliant on the existence of ether? If so, then it won't be reliable here, unless there is something in the rest of the roster that shares the properties of ether. In the cut-scene against Gadolt, Shulk says, "That's the second time I've sensed an attack without seeing a vision first." I'm not sure what to make of this because Shulk saw Gadolt coming his way and then deflected some energy orb. That itself wouldn't rely on precognition.

I'm not sure when the first time Shulk experiences this without a vision first, but perhaps if we saw this, it'd give us an idea of how it functions. I'm still not sure if this relies on ether. Also, it's interesting to note that Shulk says, "The Monado can't cut people." Is there any instance where this is contradicted? "People" here likely means "human beings in general". (OED) Also, is the Monado reliant on ether as a whole? The universe in Xenoblade must be pervaded with ether.

So this all really comes down to whether or not any character on the roster has anything like ether in their own universe. If not, then Shulk's abilities are rendered useless, except when it's used on himself. I don't think Shulk has any counter-measures against Samus' speed. Her sense move against his vision is better because her reaction time is lower, at least anywhere between 2 to 10 milliseconds. She can counter Shulk in close-combat and her beams range anywhere from high supersonic to light speed. (Super missiles move faster than Samus's shinespark, which is calculated to be Mach 2, while her top running speed is Mach 1.41.)

A single power bomb would produce 396.96 tons of TNT, if we work only with Samus being in the center of Room MW, or 3 kilotons if we use the fact that half of the power bomb can cover 30 meters, or a total of 60 meters when considering the whole blast radius. I don't think Link should be given infinite magic because the young Link incarnation is the only one who drinks the Chateau Romani.



I heard that wasn't actually canon. With Ryu as an addition to the series, we should consider his feats.
Shulk doesn’t see Jade Face until after he deflects those orbs.

“The Monado doesn’t cut people refers to the races living on the Bionis (Homs and High Entia in particular), and only held true for the Monado I.

Vision is far superior to sense move due to it activating before Samus even thinks to use her dangerous attack rendering her better reactions moot.

Monado power (Shield in particular for gameplay, and twice in Cutscenes) routinely beats out high explosives and powerful laser beams so the Power Bombs will be useless.

Ether doesn't represent all molecules/particles; see my above post on the subject.

No, because it doesn't rely on a specific substance unique to his universe.

If it was his most powerful incarnation (even though it relies on Alvis), he will still never use it as he prefers not to be a god, and strongly believes in a world without them. You simply cannot pry the personality away from the character.

Except Shulk has never demonstrated sufficient reaction time; see above.

Correction, Shulk is a human with god-like authority.

Samus is part Chozo. It's part of her physical being and character, so it comes with her. Ether is an attribute of Shulk's universe, rather than Shulk himself (at least, the ether that allows him to manipulate things), so it doesn't come with him.

Going back to my previous example, Bob is the user, but the computer (and the tank) does all the work.

When has Shulk ever blinked fifty-plus people out of existence?
Yes it does. The entire original universe was destroyed and turned into ether, both matter and energy alike.

Yes, just like Sonic wouldn’t mess around and go Super Sonic right off the bat against every opponent (including Olimar)!

Shulk has dodged plenty of beam projectiles from assorted Mechon and Telethia.

Correction. Shulk is a Homs with god like power and Alvis is just a piece of equipment.

Both the Monado and Shulk are made of ether, and Shulk needs ether to survive. A neutral battlefield will not deny a character the use of their abilities, otherwise it ceases to be neutral by giving the adversary an advantage.

Fox gets his Arwing, so Shulk gets Alvis to help operate the Monado for him.

He doesn’t hate 50 people enough to do that, and all the ones he would do that to are dead by the time he has that kind of power.

You haven't proved this, which is why we're still here. Again, vision doesn't necessarily mean Shulk can prevent something from occurring, as in the case with Fiora being harmed by Metal Face. My calculation of the power bomb presents a yield of 396.96 tons of TNT, ignoring the fact that half of the blast radius still covers 30 meters. The later would result in 3 kilotons if I calculate it this way. As far as I'm aware, Shulk has never survived a nuclear explosion.
Shulk has survived plenty of explosions.

As I pointed out before, "Monado" seems to refer to two different entities; Alvis, the program used to destroy the universe and all that, and the Monado, Shulk's sword. They're not the same entity. I don't see what the excerpt you quoted does to prove otherwise.
Alvis and the Monado are one and the same. Only three entities survived the destruction of the old universe, Claus (who became Zanza), Meyneth, and the test system Alvis/Monado.

Shulk throwing his Monado into the air is comparable to pressing a key on a computer. Both initiate an action, but cannot be done when Alvis/the computer is not present. Alvis reshaped the universe, and Shulk used his god status (in terms of authority, of course) to command him to do so.
Alvis is the Monado and therefore is always present!



Pleased to meet you @ S Sodo ! Does “God” Shulk have God level durability? You want to try arguing for the Stage Boss "Metal Face" now?

@ Munomario777 Munomario777 Bomb-obs are pitifully weak for their size. You have to remember they come from a universe with pitifully slow cannonballs.

Sonic can’t hurt or kill living beings, my evidence being all the Badniks he releases his animal friends from in the Genesis era games. Sonic should be moved to the Cranky’s Trash Can Tier now!

Do I have to analyze Ryu now too?

Where did @ Kirby Dragons Kirby Dragons disappear to?
 
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Munomario777

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Sorry for being gone so long! My worst fears came true when my PC refused to boot and just kept beeping at me. After performing some research with a burrowed Netbook, I had figured out the cause of this failure and previous system failures (this isn’t the first time this has happened, although the PC has recovered erratically the previous times) and lack of stability (System lockups, Blue screens of death from multiple causes, the Wireless USB adapter randomly losing power and connection, the PC as a whole running slowly). It turns out the PC’s 300 watt PSU (Power Supply Unit) had just died and the erratic symptoms above that have persisted for a year were caused by it being on it’s last legs. So I removed the offending piece of hardware and put an order in for a 450 watt replacement (about $30) on the 18th of this month. I received the replacement during the afternoon of the 24th and installed it the same day as well as replacing the CMOS battery which also failed (no more worrying about resetting the time). My computer runs much better and faster than it has in years and you can barely hear the new fan. I wonder how much I would have spent sending it to a PC repair shop?
Hopefully my experience can help you all with similar problems in the future.
No worries. Welcome back! :)
Then why should we allow the game mechanics that Counter and such moves present?
Circular reasoning!
How so?
No. I had to go cold turkey from the Internet because none of the PCs in reserve possess enough memory to run Firefox or Chrome without crashing (they need at least 512 MBs of RAM while the two best substitutes only had 256 MBs of RAM. Compare that with my fixed PC which has 1GB of RAM and renewed system stability.) The only contact I had with the internet during that time frame was by using my father’s Netbook to order a replacement PSU from Amazon.
Ah, yikes.
Shulk beats Giant Mario, Luigi and Bowser the same way he beat Metal Face, Yaldabaoth, and Zanza, he blocks their attacks with his frightfully high strength and jumps on top of them to inflict massive damage.
What feats has Metal Face demonstrated? Can he crush and snap metal pipes with no loss of velocity at all (which Mega Mario/Luigi and presumably Bowser do)?
He beats the Blue Falcon by jumping over it or by going prone and bisecting it as it goes by.
The Blue Falcon is extremely fast. Has Shulk done this to an object moving at 457 km/h?
Team Star Fox falls because their charged shots can’t lock-on to personal
When is this stated?
and their Smart Bombs would be blocked by Monado Shield.
Prove that Monado Shield is more potent. Remember, it only blocks attacks of an equal or lower level.
They will have to close distance to get an acceptable hit rate with their twin lasers and then they will be in range of projectile Monado Arts.
Such as?
The Arwings don’t fly that long before returning to the Great Fox so Shulk can win that way as well.
Prove that this is not a game mechanic.
Lol. Ganondorf won’t last five minutes if he tries to play tennis with Shulk.
What if he does the same thing that flattened an entire castle?
Shulk has no trouble hitting flying insects or weak Bunnits so he should have no trouble hitting Kirby and Monado Cyclone should be able to get past his assorted guards. Hypernova is rendered useless by Solid Foundation or Good Footing Gems and Kirby has a tendency to crash the Warp Star when it’s near the ground and it doesn’t travel that fast anyway.
Very true.
Adult Link’s Magic Armor runs off rupees not magic, so you must be thinking about Nayru‘s Love. Nayru’s Love doesn’t provide perfect invincibility (think lava) and it might fail against Monado Purge’s aura sealing capabilities, or just holding him in place for three days like he did to the Leone Telethia in east Makna Forest (Link still suffers knock-back and other secondary effects when he gets hit). There is also the fact that the Monado might be able to pierce his force field since he has no trouble cutting through Mechon and Zanza alike.
I was referring to Composite Link, and his Magic Armor (TWW version) plus Chateau Romani combination.
I’ve seen the Darksphere’s effects described two ways. It either possess the attacker’s mind to protect it’s bear from harm or shield it’s bear from harm. The second definition can likely be bested by Shulk’s Monado III due to it being on a much higher power tier and Shulk has proven to resist mind attacks so he might be able to get pass the first definition as well.
It seems to be the first (at least, that's the most precise definition I've heard besides "the attacker cannot be harmed").
I see no reason why the Monado can’t match the Lightsphere’s power to counteract the Darksphere.
I see no reason why it can.
Shulk will see the dirty trick ahead of time and will ensure Monado Armor is in place to ensure he survives the attack
Can he activate it quickly enough?
or he wears a Spike gem that OHKOs Mega Man on the Blue Bomber’s first attack.
Is it literally a spike that protrudes from Shulk, and does it affect projectile users?
Shulk has already resisted divine grade mind control/psychic suggestion and has bested mind reading beasts (Telethia), so beating Mewtwo is still doable.
What about the aforementioned island beam?
The only powers that Palutena has that are particularly dangerous to Shulk is her ability to turn him into a ring (might be blocked by Debuff Resist) and maybe Black Hole depending on exactly how it behaves. Her Power of Caging will fail because he will just slice his way out and all her normal attacks can be blocked, dodged, parried, reflected or shielded (Mega Laser, Explosive Flame). He also has a track record of killing deities.
Mega Laser activates instantly. Visions won't save Shulk if he can't physically dodge the attack.
Pit is just a far weaker Palutena with less durability, maneuverability and less capacity for powers, not to mention no divinity powers or omniscience.
His weapons are very potent, especially since he has one for almost every situation.
Monado Cyclone, all the Lumas die, Rosalina dies soon after.
Is that not only within a small area?
Pit isn’t anymore of a god killer than Shulk is.
Point?
Power Bomb gets blocked by Monado Shield (massive explosions have a pitiful track record against Monado wielders, examples include the explosion that Jade Face causes at Mechonis Field and the blast that consumes Agniratha, not accounting for the smaller blasts that get blocked in gameplay by Shulk), though Samus probably still takes this as long as Shulk doesn’t catch her with Monado Purge.
The Power Bomb has been calculated to equal about 400 tons of TNT by Dryn (using a low-end example at that). What is the force of the explosions you're referring to?
Sonic moves at low speed
Since when is Mach 5.5 (at low end) "low speed"? Sonic will reach Shulk in under a hundredth of a second at this speed. That's literally far faster than the blink of an eye.
and Super Sonic is easy meat for the Monado due to it’s god slaying capabilities
Gods cannot kill Super Sonic (at least, not in only one hit; they only take away a few Rings if anything).
and because Robotnik’s missiles can hurt him.
Deity attacks only take away a few Rings at most. Prove that the Monado is more powerful.
Most of Sonic’s attacks involve slamming into Shulk at very high speeds similar to Avalanche Abaasy’s Ultra Air Crush X (http://xenoblade.wikia.com/wiki/Avalanche_Abaasy) will be negated by Monado Shield and then promptly punished as Sonic is recovering from his attacks blatant failure.
Sonic is moving at at least Mach 5.5 (not factoring in the boost, Light Speed Attack, etc). Slamming into Shulk at that speed with Sonic's weight equals approximately 61,300,187 joules of energy. That translates to around 45212697.67 pounds of force, or as if Shulk had over eleven thousand cars stacked on top of the point of impact all at once, on top of one another. Prove that Shulk has withstood this level of force before.
Toon Link doesn’t have invincible Magic Armor, as it is powered by rupees.
How does that make it not invincible?
Basically Shulk has his high position thanks to his visions,
Which rely on ether, which isn't present here.
versatile melee weapon,
Which is outranged by many characters' projectiles.
excellent Mechon based armor,
What is the durability of this armor?
excellent ether gem selection, excellent skill and skill link selections, health recovery via light heal, gems and skills, respectable durability, tons of damage mitigation in the form of the Monado Arts: Shield, Speed and Armor, and enough stamina to start a fight with a superboss at night (19:00-4:59), lose most effectiveness at sunrise (5:00), survive through the whole day (5:00-18:59) and then finish the boss off during the second night when the advantage shifts back to him.
Fair enough.
Shulk is a giant killer.
Are these giants identical to the Mega forms?
He can jump over or drop under him.
He's not near quick enough.
When does Mewtwo use Laser Beams (that might have been from the destruction of the lab rather than from Mewtwo)?
Did Mewtwo not cause said destruction?
Monado Shield.
Prove that it's withstood attacks of this level. Also, it has a cooldown (so Mewtwo or anyone else could simply attack again).
Monado Shield
Prove its durability.
Same as Bowser.
See above, then.
Monado Shield
You know the drill.
Sonic never freezes time
He uses the same technique that freezes time. Plus, he actually does freeze time in the multiplayer mode of SA2:Battle.
and never goes far beyond Supersonic.
He's stated to go at hypersonic speeds in the Sonic Adventure manual. Note that this is far before he even learned the speed-enhancing boost.
He kills her and the Lumas before she can finish forming a galaxy
How?
and she can't place them with any degree of accuracy.
Why not?
You seriously underestimate him.
You seriously underestimate everyone else.
Yes it does. The entire original universe was destroyed and turned into ether, both matter and energy alike.
It represents everything in Shulk's universe, but it shows vastly different properties to every other universe's building blocks (see my above post on the subject).
Yes, just like Sonic wouldn’t mess around and go Super Sonic right off the bat against every opponent (including Olimar)!
It's not necessary. He's not hesitant to hold back if he knows he's facing off against a powerful opponent, though (his quills can sense danger, perhaps lending to this). Shulk, on the other hand, has never once used his powers for combat, and expresses major objection to being a god.
Shulk has dodged plenty of beam projectiles from assorted Mechon and Telethia.
How fast are they?
Correction. Shulk is a Homs
AKA a human, for all intents and purposes.
with god like power and Alvis is just a piece of equipment.
Alvis is the equipment that actually does everything. I see no indication of Shulk doing any more than the equivalent of pressing a button on a computer.
Both the Monado and Shulk are made of ether, and Shulk needs ether to survive. A neutral battlefield will not deny a character the use of their abilities, otherwise it ceases to be neutral by giving the adversary an advantage.
The environment will be inhabitable for all fighters, but it will give none an advantage. If it was composed of ether, Shulk would have the advantage, so in the interest of giving no fighter a specific advantage, it will not be composed of ether.
Fox gets his Arwing, so Shulk gets Alvis to help operate the Monado for him.
Alvis is alive. The Arwings are not.
He doesn’t hate 50 people enough to do that, and all the ones he would do that to are dead by the time he has that kind of power.
Does anyone die when Shulk resets the universe and all that?
Shulk has survived plenty of explosions.
Prove that they're equal in force to the Power Bomb.
Alvis and the Monado are one and the same. Only three entities survived the destruction of the old universe, Claus (who became Zanza), Meyneth, and the test system Alvis/Monado.
"Monado" is a shared name between two different entities; the system used to destroy the universe and the sword(s) that Shulk wields. Lending to this is the fact that Alvis is seen holding the Monado (the sword), and that he refers to the Monado (the sword) in the third person ("The Monado is ______").
Alvis is the Monado and therefore is always present!
See above. If Alvis was the Monado, the sword, then he wouldn't be allowed anyways as sentient beings/AI/etc all count as allies and are thus not allowed.
@ Munomario777 Munomario777 Bomb-obs are pitifully weak for their size. You have to remember they come from a universe with pitifully slow cannonballs.
And?
Sonic can’t hurt or kill living beings, my evidence being all the Badniks he releases his animal friends from in the Genesis era games. Sonic should be moved to the Cranky’s Trash Can Tier now!
Seems to mostly be a game mechanic (they're "allies", and if Sonic did kill someone, I suspect the "E for everyone" rating might not last too long :p).
Do I have to analyze Ryu now too?
Only if you want to. He doesn't look too special to me.
I dunno. :confused:
 

Crystanium

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Welcome back, Reckless Godwin 2.0!

Mega Man has used charged shots in a few of his games.
In the originals? I know X can charge, but as I stated, lumites will channel solar energy to fire powerful blasts. This seems to indicate that what they're shooting is already being charged.

Power Bomb gets blocked by Monado Shield (massive explosions have a pitiful track record against Monado wielders, examples include the explosion that Jade Face causes at Mechonis Field and the blast that consumes Agniratha, not accounting for the smaller blasts that get blocked in gameplay by Shulk), though Samus probably still takes this as long as Shulk doesn’t catch her with Monado Purge.
With the ability to cover up to 60 meters in 8.7 milliseconds, the yield of the power bomb is 3.01 kilotons of TNT. Has the Monado Shield ever protected Shulk from anything like that? Has it ever protected him even from 376.36 tons of TNT? The burden of proof is on you to support this. Before you can say the power bomb won't work on Shulk, you'll need to demonstrate an explosion that's equal or greater than one of those two numbers. To be fair, I'll use the blast radius from Metroid Prime and Metroid Prime 2: Echoes, which would result in a yield of 13.94 tons of TNT.

Say Shulk is able to avoid being killed by the shock wave (assuming the shield is impenetrable to sound energy and pressure). What about the intense light generated by the explosion? The light would have to be so bright that it'd blind Shulk if he's nearby. Or, it would incinerate him. Has the Monado Shield ever protected Shulk from vaporization? I've dealt with Munomario777 in the past concerning Link's magic armor and finding how much it could withstand, but I wasn't going to let Munomario777 commit no-limits fallacies.

Besides, Samus' wave beam can shoot through opaque, translucent, and transparent objects. It has limits, but the limitations are few and far between. It's capable of passing through a psychic barrier produced by Fumbleyes. She also has the light beam, which can pierce through enemies, and the nova beam, which can pass through Phazite, a very durable material in Metroid Prime 3: Corruption. When used with the x-ray visor, Samus can hit critical points. Against a creature like a Metroid Hatcher, she can kill it instantly. In a normal battle against a Metroid Hunter, it takes quite some time to defeat. Then there's the plasma beam's ability to penetrate through multiple enemies. I've only seen the Queen Metroid's hide and silver space pirates in Super Metroid resist the plasma beam. The latter when charged.

About Monado Purge, do you have in-game descriptions or descriptions from manuals, or do you have any information from any of the characters in Xenoblade regarding Monado Purge and other Monado-related abilities? I would like to get all the information I can about these. In order for Monado Purge to work, Samus would need an aura. If you can, please explain the properties of aura and I'll compare these to anything Samus might have. If we're working with the law of identity, then even one difference will make it unusable. If we all agree to use elemental compatibility to equalize everything, then it won't matter the differences, just as long as they're similar.

Shulk doesn’t see Jade Face until after he deflects those orbs.
Will you please provide a video?

“The Monado doesn’t cut people refers to the races living on the Bionis (Homs and High Entia in particular), and only held true for the Monado I.
Ah, see. This is what I'm talking about. If we had elemental compatibility, then any human wouldn't be affected. Since this refers only to the people on Bionis (which makes the most sense), Monado I should be able to harm anyone who is not from Bionis.

Vision is far superior to sense move due to it activating before Samus even thinks to use her dangerous attack rendering her better reactions moot.
Vision depends on ether. Samus lacks ether, so it won't work. Unless you can give me a description of ether from the Xenoblade series and I could try to see if there's anything in the Metroid series that shares the same properties. Otherwise, vision seems to depend on impending danger like sense move and it doesn't occur as a stream of thought. The way I see it'd play out is Samus would get ready to attack, Shulk would experience vision, then he'd try to avoid Samus' attack (because he still has to move out of the way), but then Samus would either counter, or she would use sense move to prevent an attack from Shulk. Her reaction time would go into effect and allow for quick movement.

Monado power (Shield in particular for gameplay, and twice in Cutscenes) routinely beats out high explosives and powerful laser beams so the Power Bombs will be useless.
What's the yield of these explosions? What's Monado Power?

Shulk has survived plenty of explosions.
Anything on par with 13.94 tons of TNT, 376.36 tons of TNT, or 3.01 kilotons of TNT?
 
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Munomario777

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@Dryn

Mega Man can charge his Mega Buster from Mega Man 4 onwards as far as the classic series goes, although he cannot in 9 and 10 (likely to mimic the original games). Time Stopper appeared in Mega Man 2, although he can't actually shoot anything using Time Stopper; I believe this is granted with an ability from the X series or something along those lines.
 

Kirby Dragons

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Meta Cyclone doesn’t look like it would be great against the normal sized fighters.
Why not? It's about the size of his competitors.
None of Masked Dedede new attacks look like they would be game changing.
Dedede has a lot of power that he demonstrates in his fights with Sectonia DX, Magolor, Galacta Knight, and Dark Meta Knight.

How does Olimar beat so many people?

All the Fire Emblem characters can wreck Ganondorf and how is Ryu better than Falco and Wolf? Your tier list has lots of flaws.
Ganondorf can defeat people who can defeat the Fire Emblem characters. Ryu has defeated a variety of characters in his games, and is an experienced fighter.
Shulk beats Giant Mario, Luigi and Bowser the same way he beat Metal Face, Yaldabaoth, and Zanza, he blocks their attacks with his frightfully high strength and jumps on top of them to inflict massive damage.
He beats the Blue Falcon by jumping over it or by going prone and bisecting it as it goes by.
Team Star Fox falls because their charged shots can’t lock-on to personal and their Smart Bombs would be blocked by Monado Shield. They will have to close distance to get an acceptable hit rate with their twin lasers and then they will be in range of projectile Monado Arts. The Arwings don’t fly that long before returning to the Great Fox so Shulk can win that way as well.
Lol. Ganondorf won’t last five minutes if he tries to play tennis with Shulk.
Shulk has no trouble hitting flying insects or weak Bunnits so he should have no trouble hitting Kirby and Monado Cyclone should be able to get past his assorted guards. Hypernova is rendered useless by Solid Foundation or Good Footing Gems and Kirby has a tendency to crash the Warp Star when it’s near the ground and it doesn’t travel that fast anyway.
Adult Link’s Magic Armor runs off rupees not magic, so you must be thinking about Nayru‘s Love. Nayru’s Love doesn’t provide perfect invincibility (think lava) and it might fail against Monado Purge’s aura sealing capabilities, or just holding him in place for three days like he did to the Leone Telethia in east Makna Forest (Link still suffers knock-back and other secondary effects when he gets hit). There is also the fact that the Monado might be able to pierce his force field since he has no trouble cutting through Mechon and Zanza alike.
I’ve seen the Darksphere’s effects described two ways. It either possess the attacker’s mind to protect it’s bear from harm or shield it’s bear from harm. The second definition can likely be bested by Shulk’s Monado III due to it being on a much higher power tier and Shulk has proven to resist mind attacks so he might be able to get pass the first definition as well. I see no reason why the Monado can’t match the Lightsphere’s power to counteract the Darksphere.
Shulk will see the dirty trick ahead of time and will ensure Monado Armor is in place to ensure he survives the attack, or he wears a Spike gem that OHKOs Mega Man on the Blue Bomber’s first attack.
Shulk has already resisted divine grade mind control/psychic suggestion and has bested mind reading beasts (Telethia), so beating Mewtwo is still doable.
The only powers that Palutena has that are particularly dangerous to Shulk is her ability to turn him into a ring (might be blocked by Debuff Resist) and maybe Black Hole depending on exactly how it behaves. Her Power of Caging will fail because he will just slice his way out and all her normal attacks can be blocked, dodged, parried, reflected or shielded (Mega Laser, Explosive Flame). He also has a track record of killing deities.
Pit is just a far weaker Palutena with less durability, maneuverability and less capacity for powers, not to mention no divinity powers or omniscience.
Monado Cyclone, all the Lumas die, Rosalina dies soon after. Pit isn’t anymore of a god killer than Shulk is.
Power Bomb gets blocked by Monado Shield (massive explosions have a pitiful track record against Monado wielders, examples include the explosion that Jade Face causes at Mechonis Field and the blast that consumes Agniratha, not accounting for the smaller blasts that get blocked in gameplay by Shulk), though Samus probably still takes this as long as Shulk doesn’t catch her with Monado Purge.
Sonic moves at low speed and Super Sonic is easy meat for the Monado due to it’s god slaying capabilities and because Robotnik’s missiles can hurt him. Most of Sonic’s attacks involve slamming into Shulk at very high speeds similar to Avalanche Abaasy’s Ultra Air Crush X (http://xenoblade.wikia.com/wiki/Avalanche_Abaasy) will be negated by Monado Shield and then promptly punished as Sonic is recovering from his attacks blatant failure.
Toon Link doesn’t have invincible Magic Armor, as it is powered by rupees.

Basically Shulk has his high position thanks to his visions, versatile melee weapon, excellent Mechon based armor, excellent ether gem selection, excellent skill and skill link selections, health recovery via light heal, gems and skills, respectable durability, tons of damage mitigation in the form of the Monado Arts: Shield, Speed and Armor, and enough stamina to start a fight with a superboss at night (19:00-4:59), lose most effectiveness at sunrise (5:00), survive through the whole day (5:00-18:59) and then finish the boss off during the second night when the advantage shifts back to him.


Shulk is a giant killer.

He can jump over or drop under him.

When does Mewtwo use Laser Beams (that might have been from the destruction of the lab rather than from Mewtwo)? Monado Shield.

Monado Shield

Same as Bowser.

Monado Shield

Sonic never freezes time and never goes far beyond Supersonic.

He kills her and the Lumas before she can finish forming a galaxy and she can't place them with any degree of accuracy.

You seriously underestimate him.


Shulk doesn’t see Jade Face until after he deflects those orbs.

“The Monado doesn’t cut people refers to the races living on the Bionis (Homs and High Entia in particular), and only held true for the Monado I.

Vision is far superior to sense move due to it activating before Samus even thinks to use her dangerous attack rendering her better reactions moot.

Monado power (Shield in particular for gameplay, and twice in Cutscenes) routinely beats out high explosives and powerful laser beams so the Power Bombs will be useless.


Yes it does. The entire original universe was destroyed and turned into ether, both matter and energy alike.

Yes, just like Sonic wouldn’t mess around and go Super Sonic right off the bat against every opponent (including Olimar)!

Shulk has dodged plenty of beam projectiles from assorted Mechon and Telethia.

Correction. Shulk is a Homs with god like power and Alvis is just a piece of equipment.

Both the Monado and Shulk are made of ether, and Shulk needs ether to survive. A neutral battlefield will not deny a character the use of their abilities, otherwise it ceases to be neutral by giving the adversary an advantage.

Fox gets his Arwing, so Shulk gets Alvis to help operate the Monado for him.

He doesn’t hate 50 people enough to do that, and all the ones he would do that to are dead by the time he has that kind of power.


Shulk has survived plenty of explosions.


Alvis and the Monado are one and the same. Only three entities survived the destruction of the old universe, Claus (who became Zanza), Meyneth, and the test system Alvis/Monado.


Alvis is the Monado and therefore is always present!
Shulk beats everyone. He's a universal god.



Do I have to analyze Ryu now too?
It might help.
Where did @ Kirby Dragons Kirby Dragons disappear to?
Right here, sorry. I've been busy doing other things, like creating fanon Death Battles.

Also, I'm about to go to camp for a week, so this might be my last time replying for a while.
Except it doesn't.
Lore says that it does.
If there's a black hole, there's gravity. Suction doesn't just make gravity nonexistent.
The stomach is a black hole, so it would be different.
And if it's not said, implied, etc to be metaphorical, we should assume that it's being literal.
Actually, the Schwarz' black hole is quite powerful anyways.
Lore says that Hypernova uses suction. Black holes don't use suction.
Lore also says that Hypernova is a black hole. Directly stating something > indirectly stating something.
A) He needs energy. In the case of the bombs, the heat energy of the fire does this. In the case of Baton, the kinetic energy of the spinning foe/baton does this.
Baton Kirby uses energy, but that doesn't mean he has to charge it.
Does this occur in all playthroughs?
Yes.
Or that the explosion doesn't damage things.
It's energy, and it struck Kirby and launched him up. Therefore, the explosion can do damage.
This is only in terms of the boss fight.

A bat could be used to destroy things, but it cannot destroy a planet.
You would have to find something that uses both my reasons for a valid counterargument.
How?
Being near high-voltage electricity will cause injury, electrocution, and the like.
Only if the electricity actually hits you.
And the vortex won't stop the bolt from touching Kirby. Wind doesn't affect electricity (at least, not noticeably).
Kirby's wind has affected electricity notably in the games.
The tornado in the games is small. The tornado in the anime is big. Games overrule anime, so the tornado is small.
He creates tornadoes of different sizes in the games and the anime.
I didn't need to "disprove" it. Rather, I pointed out that you had no real proof to begin with.
Proof that Kirby's attack launched Marx?
Flying applies an upwards force, to contradict gravity. If Marx is flying, that wouldn't resist an upwards force; it would only increase it.
What stopped Marx from flying down to contradict the upwards force?
So how does that mean that people cannot lie?
They can, but you don't really have enough proof saying that Olimar did.
It's about a second.
I counted about five.
How does the EX bosses using certain attacks mean that those must be the "planetary" attacks?
Because the EX bosses are meant to be more powerful, and therefore use their strongest and planetary atatcks, and they use the same attacks as the regular bosses.
It's easy to poke something with a needle multiple times. This would kill Kirby, no?
If his health bar was being used, but otherwise no. Also, Kirby has multiple methods of countering the needle.
The rule that slower Pokemon, quote, "get to go first".
The rule happens at the same moment the move comes out, so the rule is a result of the move.
What does that actually mean, exactly? "A speed stat of 15" doesn't really tell us much.
Really, really slow.
Quote the descriptions in question.
It enables the user to evade all attacks. Its chance of failing rises if it is used in succession.

Also, I'm not saying that Protect is the only thing that can block those moves; I'm saying that things with effects that block those moves can block those moves.
Do you have examples of that same enemy being hit in a different place, and launched differently as a result?
Meta Knight also doesn't just fly across the screen and then ditch Kirby. In Return to Dream Land, he stayed with Kirby throughout the whole adventure. Here, he just kills things and leaves.
Because of the time limit of Magic, not behavior.
I didn't. Either way, the knockback dealt by the boost is much stronger.
So Kirby justs needs to puff up multiple times.
How does that prove that Kirby's mouth isn't a portal?
I never said it wasn't.
Any life form would need some sort of internal organs to function.
Unless you are completely different from all other lifeforms.
I used the pistol/RPG analogy in relation to Kirby boss attacks. You said that "they're both guns", and I said that "they're both attacks [in the case of the Kirby bosses]".
Yeah, I was saying that they were both guns to support my point.
"Causing impact" simply means coming into contact with another thing. The rays come into contact with the skin.
Impact: the action of one object coming forcibly into contact with another.
A) That's only in one arc around Kirby; it doesn't protect all angles.
B) Yes, and?
Shadow does.
A) He doesn't need to protect all angles, because he isn't in all angles. He only has to worry about the fireballs that actually might hit him.
B) So Kirby doesn't need to raise his arm.
C) Okay.
A) I'm pretty sure that getting punched in the gut counts as getting hit.
B) It does to get its maximum speed, as shown in Air Ride.
A) Point? The boxer isn't stunned.
B) Actually, it doesn't.
The Boost Ball allows for quick movement in morph ball form. The Speed Booster/Shinespark could also buy her some time.
A) Dedede has never used Inhale to copy things. Sonic has used Chaos Control to warp time.
B) How so?
A) Give a video of that, or according to you, it's unusable.
B) You don't have a video of that either.
How does that mean that having fun whilst charging is impossible?
Fun slips your mind.
How does the gameplay not fit the lore? The lore says "mountain", and Kirby chops a mountain.
The lore says that mountains will fall, but the mountain in the gameplay didn't fall.
Except he's too busy swinging at his arm to attempt chopping it off.
That doesn't make sense.
Prove that it's the same attack (the charging one). The games say that Kirby must charge up to reach Mach 5 speeds.
It's visually the same.
Pain and flinching don't necessitate damage. We went over this.
Every time in the games where he's hurt, he takes damage.
The island is far away, and Octacon is far away. The telescope is being used to see far away things both times.
It's not being used to see the island, it's being used to make it clearer. The island can already be seen.
Which isn't all that fast really.
It should be fast enough.
Flying over something and dodging something at point-blank are two different actions.
Except he'd be flying over the fireball.
Can it destroy energy attacks that cause everything they touch to turn into gold?
Yes, because he can destroy energy attacks. That question's about as good as me saying, "Can Mario attack a pink puffball that can inhale things?"
The shockwave goes through the air.
Kirby can fly much higher.
When does Kirby survive falling into a pool of lava?
In pretty much every game he's been in.
I don't see any major increased gravity effects on Popstar (if anything, I'd say it's reduced a bit compared to earth).
There's evidence that Popstar's gravity is the same as Earth's.
It's still not incredibly fast. The bird form might be able to get some sort of thing done, but it's a random chance. Most of them are slow, so Kirby has a higher chance of being slow.
He can switch what form he goes into, so if he doesn't get the one he wants, he can try again.
The hat is falling onto Mario's head; he's jumping into it.
The same thing would happen if he jumped into the side of the hat. It doesn't fall into his head then.
If Mario picks up the hat on the ground, the proper animation plays out of Mario putting on the hat.
Can I see a video?
Large enough to do some major damage.
I doubt that.
75,764,945.72 joules.
What's that equivalent to?
Prove that they'll OHKO Mario (who is currently packing a durability-increasing power-up).
I didn't say they'd OHKO him, I said that two attacks would KO him. Though, Kirby is on a planetary level, so logic says he would be able to OHKO Mario.
In that case, are all fruits the same thing?
Fruits aren't recognized to be the same to everything, so no.
In order for yours to work, we'd also need to see the insides of a Pokemon. It can't be proved either way, so it shouldn't be used as evidence for either side.
Since we don't see the insides of a Pokemon, we can use the insides of any living creature (as a lot of Pokemon resemble creatures alive in the real world).
When is it described as a "bonus" cutscene?
It isn't.
A car crashing into you will certainly damage you. The same principle applies here.
Depends mainly on the distance of the car away from me when it starts.
It accelerated at the speed of light.
When was the bolt in the same place as Kirby?
Right at 15:33.
That's reflex, which won't do much good here.
He can jump over tiny Sonic.
Alright. Still, turning into Super Sonic will give Kirby the chance to start Inhale.
This isn't proven.
It doesn't exactly need to be proven if it's a statement from the game.
If Olimar found something that could kill anything by ripping a hole in space-time, why wouldn't he use it?
Because he needs to take it back to Hocotate.
And question blocks stay floating when gravity is present. Clearly the Mario universe has some rather selective laws of physics. :p
Most things in Mario use normal gravity.
When the Star Bits don't pass through the nets.
Since they were human beings. The Ice Climbers never had the ability to do those things; Rosalina's wand has the ability to teleport and create force fields.
My hand has the ability to punch and slap, but it can't do those things at the same time.
How come?
She needs
A) a lot of Star Bits
B) a Luma
C) galaxies that actually put black holes where her opponents are
Lore says it uses suction, which black holes do not.
See above.
He could definitely move her. What I'm wondering is if she would actually fit (or rather, if Hypernova could make her fit).
She's skinny, so she could always bend. Regardless, Kirby can inhale the Lumas, her wand, and her Star Bits and leave her with nothing left.
A) The Lumas can go anywhere, and they can make black holes wherever they are. Combining these means that Lumas can make black holes anywhere (by going there and then transforming).
B) Maybe a second or two.
A) Fire Kirby can go anywhere, and he can create fire wherever he goes. Can he create fire anywhere he wants?
B) Which is enough time for Kirby to attack. That also isn't including the lag where the Lumas eats the Star Bits.
When in the video, and could you clarify which one you're referring to (to avoid confusion)?
At 18:10.
She could react to it during the charge-up.

^
Can it block attacks that create craters, such as Jet Kirby's blast?
Care to elaoborate?

Once again, mind explaining?
Let's see here.
  1. Lumas can't turn into black holes.
  2. Kirby can escape powerful black holes.
  3. Kirby wouldn't let the Luma do that.
  4. Rosalina would be dead by then.
  5. The Luma would suck up Rosalina before she sucked up Kirby.
  6. Jet Kirby's too fast for the Luma.
  7. The Luma would be sucked into the black hole that Rosalina's about to go into.
It proves that a black hole could be present on the battlefield, and that Rosalina could utilize them in battle.
It doesn't prove that Rosalina can use them wherever she wants them.
Why would he have to ht the sword?
Whenever time is frozen, Sonic doesn't move anything unless he hits it hard.
Because he's running, trying to take the sword, or freezing time.
I'm sure Sonic can manage walking up to Marth, grabbing his sword, and attacking.
Marth has ways to resist.
Those aren't constant.
Actually, they are.
Nothing about them being difficult to pull from an animal's jaw (or whatever it is that you said earlier).
I don't actually remember what I was saying.
I'm not quite sure. Sonic uses the positive energies from the Chaos Emeralds to turn into Super Sonic (Sonic Adventure), and the Werehog form uses negative energies. Positive Chaos Emerald energies override negative ones (once again, Sonic Adventure), so I'd imagine that a similar thing would occur here.
That didn't happen the last time Sonic was attacked with dark influences.
Farther than a sword.
Not farther than the Geosphere.
The planet split apart. I'm sure he knew that the planet needed defending.
Yet, it doesn't make sense for him to use a battle cry at that point, when he didn't see anything related to the situation.
So can the Overmind, if I'm not mistaken.
Do you have video?
The Chaos Emeralds are also deity-related.
How powerful are said deities?
Omega and Rouge don't.
Interesting.
How exactly does evil corrupt something?
It's a powerful force.
Powerful mirrors can penetrate mirrors.
Um, what?
Mario also has a variety of items and power-ups.
Most of those items aren't attacks, they give Mario attacks.
How would he go about doing that?
The Eight Melodies put him on a level higher than that of Sonic's, so his attacks would be able to defeat him easily.
Timestamp please?
No specific place. The enemies use their attacks all throughout the video.
Explain it, then.
I was bringing up things with the same force of destruction as the FE attacks, and matching the amount of joules together.
A) It's activating part of the computer setup.
B) Provide such lore for the crown-induced transformation, then.
A) But not the computer.
B) Not lore about the transformation, but lore about the power.
Then how is Marth not damaged?
Marth is damaged.
When do they destroy planets?
Offscreen.
Except Sonic already killed him.
How?
Rings are more comparable to HP/PP than they are usable items.
HP and PP aren't things you can collect and add to a character, while Rings and items in Pokemon are.
Only the animals attached to them.
Starting lag doesn't exist in Pokemon.
Prove it.
Not with a strong grip.
Who said that he had a strong grip?
Which doesn't always deliver universal attacks; they don't destroy the universe, or even OHKO the target.
They don't destroy the universe because they aren't used to, and they don't OHKO the target because the target is on a similar level.
No, because that's stated throughout the game series and it makes some sense.
It's only stated once, and it doesn't make any sense.
The Hyper Flash, boost, etc.
Not canon.
Ah, yes. I don't believe it hits a single target more than once, but I don't see why it would need to.
You're right, it wouldn't
I don't believe it is, so the attacks don't seem to be universal.
Fair enough.
Explain to me how Wario can be both vulnerable and invincible at the same time.
He can't. Invincibility is one of his abilities (and we use abilities), and it's his best situation (we use best situations), so he can get it here.
Yes, and the example you provided is irrelevant to this case. Reliability of a source =/= sending out armies.
You said that Wario's invincibility should be disregarded because it's an outlier. I proved that being an outlier doesn't mean things should be disregarded.
I do like the idea of using a roster maker for these, but I don't think that the "they can beat anyone below and to the right" thing really works out. Toon Link beats Mega Man because of Magic Armor, Bowser beats the Kongs because of obvious reasons, Ganon beats Ness and Meta Knight because he can't be hit by them, etc etc.
Mega Man can use the Mega Buster and destroy the Magic Armor. The Kongs just have to hit Bowser once to defeat him. MK's sword is holy, so he can defeat Ganondorf.

In response to what @Dryn brought up about MO, I'll say that Rosalina doesn't use her wand or Lumas for battle, so she can't use them here if we use behavior traits.
 

Kirby Dragons

Smash Hero
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Messages
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Location
Another Dimension
Define "cosmic level". I'll list off some fighters I feel could defeat Shulk (at least based on my knowledge). I'd be glad to explain in more detail if you ask.
:4bowser: (Giant Bowser crushes Shulk in one hit, and visions won't help if he can't get out of the way in time)
Shulk survived an attack that wiped existence, and has defeated enemies with sizes comparable to Giga Bowser.
:4falcon:(Blue Falcon's speed is way too much for Shulk to react to)
Shulk doesn't have to react. He can just survive the hits.
:4falco:(vehicle with lasers and bombs < no vehicle)
:4fox:(see Falco)
Monado with universal power > vehicle with lasers and bombs
:4ganondorf:? (extreme durability even against his holy weapon weakness, but Shulk has one of those)
Shulk wrecks.
:4kirby:(decent durability and is a hard target thanks to being small, and Hypernova and the Warp Star give him quite the edge)
Shulk cuts Kirby in half.
:4link:(Chateau Romani + Magic Armor = 3 day invincibility = win)
See Kirby.
:4luigi:(Mega Mushroom; see Bowser)
:4mario:(see Luigi)
Mechon Armor. Plus, Mega Mushroom doesn't prevent them from getting cut in half.
:4marth:(immune to all non-dragon attacks thanks to his sword, and Darksphere prevents foes from attacking via a form of mind control)
Marth can't hurt Shulk either due to Mechon Armor.
:4megaman:(can stop time to prepare an attack or dodge Shulk's, which is in a sense better than visions)
Stopping time has its limits. Plus, Shulk's attacks are strong enough to destroy Mega Man no matter where he is.
:4mewtwo:(Mega Mewtwo is extremely powerful, and in the anime even regular Mewtwo is a force to be reckoned with)
Gets sliced in half.
:4palutena:(while the name of "goddess" doesn't mean much, she still has the Powers which are very, well, powerful)
His Monado can slay gods.
:4pit:(god slayer, and has the various weapons to help him out)
Monado > any of Pit's weapons. Plus, Shulk can slay gods much stronger than anyone Pit has slayed.
:rosalina:(black hole. /battle)
Universe busting attack. /battle
:4samus:(Power Bomb. /battle)
Shulk's survived stronger.
:4sonic:(Moves at hypersonic speeds, is invincible via Super Sonic, and the other things I've been saying for a while now)
Gets cut in half.
:4tlink:(Doesn't have Chateau Romani, but still has the Magic Armor for invincibility)
Magic Armor is much too weak.
 

Munomario777

Smash Master
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Messages
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Location
Charleston, South Carolina
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0387-9596-4480
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Lore says that it does.
No, lore says that Hypernova uses suction. Black holes do not use suction.
The stomach is a black hole, so it would be different.
Kirby's stomach isn't a black hole; it relies on suction, and when we see inside his stomach, there's no signs of spaghettification.
Actually, the Schwarz' black hole is quite powerful anyways.
Not anywhere near the level of an actual black hole. It's a glorified bottomless pit.
Lore also says that Hypernova is a black hole. Directly stating something > indirectly stating something.
Black holes don't rely on suction.
Baton Kirby uses energy, but that doesn't mean he has to charge it.
The explosion has more energy, so it requires charging of said energy.
So in every playthrough that has ever been played of this game, Kirby always hits Marx in the wings? Even then, it would only be for one of the wings; both of them spread.
It's energy, and it struck Kirby and launched him up. Therefore, the explosion can do damage.
A cannon doesn't damage its cannonball, and yet it launches it up into the air.
You would have to find something that uses both my reasons for a valid counterargument.
Why can I not have two counterarguments for your two arguments?
You're saying that because Kirby can inhale the electrical energy in his games, then he can inhale Samus's much more powerful blast. It's extrapolation.
Only if the electricity actually hits you.
Electricity is attracted to skin; in close proximity, it'll jump right to the skin. The same principle applies here.
Kirby's wind has affected electricity notably in the games.
Do you have a video of this?
He creates tornadoes of different sizes in the games and the anime.
Show me the game examples.
Proof that Kirby's attack launched Marx?
Yes, but more specifically, a counter to my argument that Kirby did not launch Marx Soul.
What stopped Marx from flying down to contradict the upwards force?
If he's flying downwards, he's going towards the ground; but here, he's staying in the air.
They can, but you don't really have enough proof saying that Olimar did.
And you have no proof that he told the truth.
I counted about five.
Oh, I thought you were referring to the spinning attack. He's in the background during most of it, so he's safe from Kirby.
Because the EX bosses are meant to be more powerful, and therefore use their strongest and planetary atatcks, and they use the same attacks as the regular bosses.
Prove that they use their strongest attacks. "More powerful" =/= "most powerful".
If his health bar was being used, but otherwise no.
Kirby's durability represented by his health bar, even if we're not actually using the health bar.
Also, Kirby has multiple methods of countering the needle.
Yes, but that's not my point; my point is that it takes few hits (depending on their power) to destroy him.
The rule happens at the same moment the move comes out, so the rule is a result of the move.
Yes, but the rule is not in effect in these battles.
Really, really slow.
I figured you'd say that. Mega Mewtwo is about nine times faster than the Slowpoke, so we can deduce that Magic Room speeds up the user by about nine times their regular speed.
It enables the user to evade all attacks. Its chance of failing rises if it is used in succession.
Nothing about the specific moves in there.
Also, I'm not saying that Protect is the only thing that can block those moves; I'm saying that things with effects that block those moves can block those moves.
Do these effects include invincibility?
That's a different game, and a different attack.
Because of the time limit of Magic, not behavior.
So we apply Magic's time limit here, then.
So Kirby justs needs to puff up multiple times.
That's only adding upwards momentum. It doesn't negate horizontal knockback. Unless you can provide an example of Kirby getting launched a far distance by an enemy attack, and then another example of that same attack hitting Kirby and Kirby puffing up to negate the knockback, I can't reach that conclusion.
I never said it wasn't.
Then what are you trying to say?
Unless you are completely different from all other lifeforms.
Prove that Kirby is different.
Yeah, I was saying that they were both guns to support my point.
And the analogy is still intact; both are guns in the analogy, and both are attacks in the case of the bosses.
Impact: the action of one object coming forcibly into contact with another.
Yes, it's forced by the sun emitting rays.
A) He doesn't need to protect all angles, because he isn't in all angles. He only has to worry about the fireballs that actually might hit him.
B) So Kirby doesn't need to raise his arm.
C) Okay.
A) Which would be surrounding him at this point.
B) He'd need to wait for the Copy Ability to take effect.
A) Point? The boxer isn't stunned.
B) Actually, it doesn't.
A) He's flinching, which is very similar (and very similar to what Kirby experiences).
B) Don't you have to charge it in that game?
A) Give a video of that, or according to you, it's unusable.
B) You don't have a video of that either.
A) Okay.
B) I could probably find a video of this, but I don't think I need to. Boosting while using the Spin Attack shouldn't be necessary when Sonic is already packing 45212697.67 pounds of force with just ramming into opponents.
Fun slips your mind.
I have fun while playing Smash Brothers, but it doesn't hamper my abilities.
The lore says that mountains will fall, but the mountain in the gameplay didn't fall.
I seem to remember the front half of the volcano that was mentioned way back when sliding down, or falling.
That doesn't make sense.
Whoops, my words got strange there. :p Kirby is chopping, say, Bowser's right arm off, correct? While he's busy doing that, Bowser's left fist can punch him since Kirby is focused on the right arm.
It's visually the same.
It's also visually the same as the other attacks, which don't involve charging and thus don't move at Mach 5.
Every time in the games where he's hurt, he takes damage.
I'd imagine that tumbling out of the spaceship like he does at the beginning of the game would hurt a bit.
It's not being used to see the island, it's being used to make it clearer. The island can already be seen.
And this is relevant because...?
It should be fast enough.
Mario is shooting Kirby with a projectile bigger than he is at point blank range. The fireball will reach Kirby in far less than a second, likely less than even half of one. Kirby's flight just seems far too slow to dodge the fireball itself, let alone the large shockwave it creates when it hits something.
Except he'd be flying over the fireball.
Except he's still hit by the shockwave.
Yes, because he can destroy energy attacks.
Not ones that turn anything they touch into gold.
That question's about as good as me saying, "Can Mario attack a pink puffball that can inhale things?"
Kirby doesn't turn anything that tries to attack him into gold; he doesn't have any properties that would get in the way of Mario attacking him. The Gold Flower has projectiles that turn things into gold upon contact, so if Kirby tries to punch it, he'll get turned into gold.
Kirby can fly much higher.
Not nearly quick enough.
In pretty much every game he's been in.
Do you have video of this?
There's evidence that Popstar's gravity is the same as Earth's.
Which is?
He can switch what form he goes into, so if he doesn't get the one he wants, he can try again.
Meanwhile, the fireball hits him while he's shuffling through his forms.
The same thing would happen if he jumped into the side of the hat. It doesn't fall into his head then.
Because of a game mechanic. It's the same reason Sonic can eat food while curled into a ball (where his mouth isn't very accessible) in Smash Brothers.
Can I see a video?
Everyone seems to jump into the hat, which is understandable. Sadly, this means that I cannot find a video of anyone doing it on the ground. It does happen, though.
I doubt that.
If you throw a hammer at someone's head, I can guarantee that it'll do some major damage.
What's that equivalent to?
Quite a bit over 45212697.67 pounds of force (that's the pound force equivalent of 61,300,187 joules).
I didn't say they'd OHKO him, I said that two attacks would KO him.
It'll take three hits, actually, and Mario's foot won't be stopped.
Though, Kirby is on a planetary level, so logic says he would be able to OHKO Mario.
When does Kirby destroy a planet?
Fruits aren't recognized to be the same to everything, so no.
And neither are Mega Stones.
Since we don't see the insides of a Pokemon, we can use the insides of any living creature (as a lot of Pokemon resemble creatures alive in the real world).
In the real world, muscles store energy separately. This is most likely an exaggerated example of that principle.
It isn't.
Then where are you getting the "bonus" part from?
Depends mainly on the distance of the car away from me when it starts.
Yes, that would add to the speed, which would determine the force.
It accelerated at the speed of light.
The speed of light isn't an acceleration; it's, well, a speed. A measurement of acceleration would be, say, 1/5 of the speed of light per second.
Right at 15:33.
The flash of light was, but the bolt wasn't at Kirby's position.
He can jump over tiny Sonic.
Except he's spinning on his Warp Star, busy inhaling.
Alright. Still, turning into Super Sonic will give Kirby the chance to start Inhale.
And Kirby inhaling gives Sonic the chance to freeze time or simply go behind Kirby.
It doesn't exactly need to be proven if it's a statement from the game.
It's not a statement from the game; it's a statement from Olimar.
Because he needs to take it back to Hocotate.
So using the knife will destroy it?
Most things in Mario use normal gravity.

Explain the platforms, coins, and brick blocks here then. Not to mention that the Star Bits are from Super Mario Galaxy, which introduces a whole new mess of nonsensical gravity.
When the Star Bits don't pass through the nets.
Then they're compressed liquid.
My hand has the ability to punch and slap, but it can't do those things at the same time.
Your hand can't slap and punch at the same time because one involves it being a fist, whereas the other involves your hand being open. The wand doesn't have to be in two different states to create a force field and allow Rosalina to teleport.
She needs
A) a lot of Star Bits
B) a Luma
C) galaxies that actually put black holes where her opponents are
She has all of those.
She's skinny, so she could always bend.
I wonder how Kirby would manage to do that.
Regardless, Kirby can inhale the Lumas, her wand, and her Star Bits and leave her with nothing left.
Except there are many Lumas firing many Star Bits and creating many galaxies containing many black holes. Strength in numbers.
A) Fire Kirby can go anywhere, and he can create fire wherever he goes. Can he create fire anywhere he wants?
B) Which is enough time for Kirby to attack. That also isn't including the lag where the Lumas eats the Star Bits.
A) If he truly can go anywhere, then yes (given he actually goes there first).
B) He can only attack so many Lumas during that time, though. He won't get to them all in time (especially if Rosalina uses some force fields).
At 18:10.
That's not nearly far enough to escape a black hole's AOE.
Can it block attacks that create craters, such as Jet Kirby's blast?
How large are the craters?
Let's see here.
  1. Lumas can't turn into black holes.
  2. Kirby can escape powerful black holes.
  3. Kirby wouldn't let the Luma do that.
  4. Rosalina would be dead by then.
  5. The Luma would suck up Rosalina before she sucked up Kirby.
  6. Jet Kirby's too fast for the Luma.
  7. The Luma would be sucked into the black hole that Rosalina's about to go into.
  1. They can by turning into galaxies that contain them.
  2. When does he escape a black hole with his amount of suction power?
  3. There are too many Lumas for Kirby to stop in time.
  4. How would that happen?
  5. Unless Rosalina planned carefully and kept her distance. Even if it did, Rosalina & Luma still win, because the Lumas are still alive.
  6. Once he tries to attack, he's done for.
  7. Why would it get sucked in?
It doesn't prove that Rosalina can use them wherever she wants them.
The Lumas can go anywhere on the battlefield.
Whenever time is frozen, Sonic doesn't move anything unless he hits it hard.
Why exactly could he not move something?
Because he's running, trying to take the sword, or freezing time.
After which he commences attacking.
Marth has ways to resist.
Which are?
Actually, they are.
They only occur every turn.
I don't actually remember what I was saying.
Okay, then.
That didn't happen the last time Sonic was attacked with dark influences.
Because the Chaos Emeralds had lost their energy.
Not farther than the Geosphere.
He could use an invincibility power-up.
Yet, it doesn't make sense for him to use a battle cry at that point, when he didn't see anything related to the situation.
He saw the earth, which was being split apart.
Do you have video?
Yes.
How powerful are said deities?
They're stated to contain "ultimate power" (the Chaos Emeralds, that is). Their origins aren't known for sure, but since the Master Emerald was created by the gods (the creators of Sonic's world), then it seems that they created the Chaos Emeralds as well.
Interesting.
Quite.
It's a powerful force.
I said, "exactly". A bomb is a powerful force, but it does not corrupt (at least, not in this sense of the word).
Um, what?
Whoops! I meant powerful lasers. :p
Most of those items aren't attacks, they give Mario attacks.
And?
The Eight Melodies put him on a level higher than that of Sonic's, so his attacks would be able to defeat him easily.
Level systems are irrelevant here. Prove why, in a level-system-free environment (although still with the force, attack power, buffs, etc they present), Ness would defeat Sonic, who can freeze time and speedblitz Ness before he could begin to blink.
No specific place. The enemies use their attacks all throughout the video.
I don't see them destroying cities.
I was bringing up things with the same force of destruction as the FE attacks, and matching the amount of joules together.
Prove that they're the same.
A) But not the computer.
B) Not lore about the transformation, but lore about the power.
A) The monitor is part of the computer.
B) We're discussing the power here.
Marth is damaged.
Then Marth is dead, because the damage caused by Sonic kills him.
Offscreen.
Prove this.
By using an attack during the time freezing. For instance, the boost.
HP and PP aren't things you can collect and add to a character, while Rings and items in Pokemon are.
You can collect potions, which add PP/HP. The method of obtaining them is irrelevant.
Only the animals attached to them.
Do you have a source for this?
Prove it.
It's turn-based, and attack speed is determined by the Speed stat. It doesn't vary with each attack.
Who said that he had a strong grip?
It's only logical that that's how he'd be able to hold an item.
They don't destroy the universe because they aren't used to,
If they pack enough force to destroy the universe, then the application is irrelevant; it's still hitting (part of) the universe.
and they don't OHKO the target because the target is on a similar level.
This is circular reasoning.
It's only stated once,
Ah.
and it doesn't make any sense.
Why is it nonsensical?
Not canon.
The Super Sonic Boost is, and uses the Emeralds' energy.
He can't. Invincibility is one of his abilities (and we use abilities), and it's his best situation (we use best situations), so he can get it here.
We also use weaknesses. Being able to be hit is a weakness. Advantages to the character are irrelevant. In the case of a contradiction, we go with the more common example.
You said that Wario's invincibility should be disregarded because it's an outlier. I proved that being an outlier doesn't mean things should be disregarded.
Sending out armies =/= choosing a reliable source.
Mega Man can use the Mega Buster and destroy the Magic Armor.
Prove that it would destroy the Magic Armor.
The Kongs just have to hit Bowser once to defeat him.
Why is that?
MK's sword is holy, so he can defeat Ganondorf.
If he could actually get a hit in before Ganondorf decimates him. Remember, it takes multiple hits with even the Master Sword to defeat Ganondorf.
In response to what @Dryn brought up about MO, I'll say that Rosalina doesn't use her wand or Lumas for battle, so she can't use them here if we use behavior traits.
Rosalina uses the wand and Lumas to create force fields, teleport, make black holes, etc, so he can do so here. Shulk never blinks anyone out of existence, so he wouldn't here.
Shulk survived an attack that wiped existence,
Which one? How much force does it pack?
and has defeated enemies with sizes comparable to Giga Bowser.
Are they exactly the same?
Shulk doesn't have to react. He can just survive the hits.
Prove that he can survive a vehicle moving at that velocity.
Monado with universal power > vehicle with lasers and bombs
If it had universal power, it would OHKO any target (which it doesn't).
Shulk wrecks.
It could go either way.
Shulk cuts Kirby in half.
That's a strong possibility.
See Kirby.
Except Magic Armor.
Mechon Armor.
Prove its durability.
Plus, Mega Mushroom doesn't prevent them from getting cut in half.
It protects them from both physical and energy attacks.
Marth can't hurt Shulk either due to Mechon Armor.
Shulk definitely has the edge here.
Stopping time has its limits.
They can be worked around, however.
Plus, Shulk's attacks are strong enough to destroy Mega Man no matter where he is.
Power =/= range.
Gets sliced in half.
He can fly.
His Monado can slay gods.
This doesn't guarantee a win.
Monado > any of Pit's weapons. Plus, Shulk can slay gods much stronger than anyone Pit has slayed.
It could go either way.
Universe busting attack. /battle
Which Shulk never uses.
Shulk's survived stronger.
Prove it.
Gets cut in half.
Sonic reaches Shulk in under .00 seconds. Shulk wouldn't even be able to watch his full vision, let alone dodge the attack or activate his sword.
Magic Armor is much too weak.
Prove it.
 

Crystanium

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It's odd to me that no one is actually proving that Shulk has survived worse attacks. Assertions aren't proof, people.
 

Mizzy Moe

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id have to say kirby hands down.

he can withstand a crazy amount of damage, use that one power up (i cant think of what its called but its like hyper suction) that can suck up everything and anything he needs too, (i know its not cannon but in death battle he could suck up and spit back a spirit bomb type attack from majin buu i dont know about you but thats pretty damn impressive to me) and must i remind everyone he can can throw a huge monster on a frying pan to the sun and back just to cook it into some food
 

Munomario777

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id have to say kirby hands down.

he can withstand a crazy amount of damage,
Which attacks?
use that one power up (i cant think of what its called but its like hyper suction) that can suck up everything and anything he needs too,
Only things of a certain size.
(i know its not cannon but in death battle he could suck up and spit back a spirit bomb type attack from majin buu i dont know about you but thats pretty damn impressive to me)
It would be impressive, if it was canon.
and must i remind everyone he can can throw a huge monster on a frying pan to the sun and back just to cook it into some food
Yes, that is an impressive feat of physical strength.

Welcome to the thread! :)
 

Mizzy Moe

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Which attacks?
i dont remember too much of the anime but hasnt he withstood a couple of explosions? Also isnt he made of some sorta rubbery stretchy substance? and sure hes still like a baby with barely any to no strategy in mind but even if he were to go up against someone as fast and with not as much power as sonic couldnt he use his warp star to keep up with if not outspeed him and if he wanted coulnt he absorb that star for a star rod and just make another warp star?

Only things of a certain size.
I thought that he was able to stretch his mouth to the size of whatever he needed to inhale?

It would be impressive, if it was canon.
Yeah thats true its not, but i feel like he would still be able to its not like its the craziest thing hes done

Welcome to the thread! :)
thanks i feel welcomed :p
 

Munomario777

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i dont remember too much of the anime but hasnt he withstood a couple of explosions?

Not sure. If he has, the games take priority.
Also isnt he made of some sorta rubbery stretchy substance?
Yes, but that doesn't necessarily add durability.
and sure hes still like a baby with barely any to no strategy in mind but even if he were to go up against someone as fast and with not as much power as sonic couldnt he use his warp star to keep up with if not outspeed him
The Warp Star hasn't shown speeds surpassing those of Sonic (he can go at Mach 5.5 at a low end, plus his boost and Light Speed Dash techniques), and Sonic's speed also comes with acceleration. Sonic can reach top speed from a standstill in an instant, whereas the Warp Star can't.
and if he wanted coulnt he absorb that star for a star rod and just make another warp star?
Yes, but then he loses his best movement option.
I thought that he was able to stretch his mouth to the size of whatever he needed to inhale?
We can only assume that he can inhale what he's been shown to inhale in his games; otherwise, it's extrapolation.
Yeah thats true its not, but i feel like he would still be able to its not like its the craziest thing hes done
What is, then?
thanks i feel welcomed :p
Glad to hear. :)
 

Mizzy Moe

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Not sure. If he has, the games take priority.
oh well then i guess the frying pan thing doesnt matter?

The Warp Star hasn't shown speeds surpassing those of Sonic (he can go at Mach 5.5 at a low end, plus his boost and Light Speed Dash techniques), and Sonic's speed also comes with acceleration. Sonic can reach top speed from a standstill in an instant, whereas the Warp Star can't.
yeah i know at any given time sonic can reach his fastest without other abilitys or powerups (hes actually my favorite character in smash and cartoon as a kid but always loved shadow more :p) but if there are no buildings or anything to run up kirby could get on his warp star fly up and start blasting him but thats assuming sonic doesnt have some sorta gadget to combat that from tails or just using the plane in general but i dont know how deep were goin into this

Yes, but then he loses his best movement option.
no like him have both and if im not mistaken it has happened at least once in one of the games as a final boss encounter i dont remeber which though. he had to use his warp star to fly and and the star rod to attack

What is, then?
id say the frying pan thing XD[/quote]
 
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Munomario777

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oh well then i guess the frying pan thing doesnt matter?
We can include things from the anime, but if there's a contradiction, then the games overrule the anime. For instance, you say that Kirby survived large explosions in the anime, but he's damaged by them in the games, so the games take priority.
yeah i know at any given time sonic can reach his fastest without other abilitys or powerups (hes actually my favorite character in smash and cartoon as a kid but always loved shadow more :p) but if there are no buildings or anything to run up kirby could get on his warp star fly up and start blasting him but thats assuming sonic doesnt have some sorta gadget to combat that from tails or just using the plane in general but i dont know how deep were goin into this
Well, this wouldn't really happen in an actual battle, since Sonic would reach his opponent in under .01 seconds, or far faster than a blink of an eye, and ram into them for an OHKO due to his massive velocity. If an opponent did manage to get in the air, Sonic could simply enter his Super Sonic form, which has flight, added speed (as if he needed any more :p), invincibility, and added strength, among other things.
no like him have both and if im not mistaken it has happened at least once in one of the games as a final boss encounter i dont remeber which though. he had to use his warp star to fly and and the star rod to attack
I've seen that Kirby can use the Star Rod created from his Warp Star to summon another Warp Star. However, Kirby still has to summon the second Warp Star, leaving him open to attack.
id say the frying pan thing XD
Yes, that is pretty over-the-top. :p

By the way, your quotes seem to be broken. Might wanna fix that :p
 

Mizzy Moe

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We can include things from the anime, but if there's a contradiction, then the games overrule the anime. For instance, you say that Kirby survived large explosions in the anime, but he's damaged by them in the games, so the games take priority.
makes sense i guess since it was his first appearance

Well, this wouldn't really happen in an actual battle, since Sonic would reach his opponent in under .01 seconds, or far faster than a blink of an eye, and ram into them for an OHKO due to his massive velocity. If an opponent did manage to get in the air, Sonic could simply enter his Super Sonic form, which has flight, added speed (as if he needed any more :p), invincibility, and added strength, among other things.
yeah i guess that makes sense as well but doesnt he need the 7 chaos emeralds to go super sonic kinda like how shadow needs them for chaos control?

I've seen that Kirby can use the Star Rod created from his Warp Star to summon another Warp Star. However, Kirby still has to summon the second Warp Star, leaving him open to attack.
yeah i guess he wouldnt have too much time to react i guess his best move would just be try to eat him and put him in his stomach diminsion XD

By the way, your quotes seem to be broken. Might wanna fix that :p
yeah i thought id have to copy your whole name and post code but im just using quote now so lets see if this works :p
 

Munomario777

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makes sense i guess since it was his first appearance
Mhm.
yeah i guess that makes sense as well but doesnt he need the 7 chaos emeralds to go super sonic kinda like how shadow needs them for chaos control?
Yes he does need the Chaos Emeralds, but he has them here since fighters get all of their equipment.
yeah i guess he wouldnt have too much time to react i guess his best move would just be try to eat him and put him in his stomach diminsion XD
Even then, he probably wouldn't be able to open his mouth in time. :p
yeah i thought id have to copy your whole name and post code but im just using quote now so lets see if this works :p
It seems to be working! :D
 

Mizzy Moe

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Yes he does need the Chaos Emeralds, but he has them here since fighters get all of their equipment.

Even then, he probably wouldn't be able to open his mouth in time. :p
stone kirby stallout til sonic gets bored XD
i dont know with only the games to go off of i dont know how much kirby can do seeing as i havent played the kirby games since the gameboy advance XD

oh another thing i thought of is it cannon that his stomach is his own dimension cuz he can stop time in our (sayin that as a general term for not his stomach :p) dimension to go into his own stomach get and take the power of whatever he would need at them time aka anything he has ever eaten while in the games its not included (probably to make the game not so easy)
 

Munomario777

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stone kirby stallout til sonic gets bored XD
I somewhat doubt that he could survive 45212697.67 pounds of force. :p
i dont know with only the games to go off of i dont know how much kirby can do seeing as i havent played the kirby games since the gameboy advance XD

oh another thing i thought of is it cannon that his stomach is his own dimension cuz he can stop time in our (sayin that as a general term for not his stomach :p) dimension to go into his own stomach get and take the power of whatever he would need at them time aka anything he has ever eaten while in the games its not included (probably to make the game not so easy)
Does it actually freeze time?
 

Mizzy Moe

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I somewhat doubt that he could survive 45212697.67 pounds of force. :p
yeah i felt like he was invincible during the time he was a stone and would smash somewhat be cannon cuz a 9 hammer from game and watch ignores the stone completly which pissed me of to no end when it first happened to me XD


Does it actually freeze time?
i believe so but ill have to look it up honestly i think it does but if not slows it down a whole lot where sonic would probably be at a slight jog speed
 

Munomario777

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yeah i felt like he was invincible during the time he was a stone and would smash somewhat be cannon cuz a 9 hammer from game and watch ignores the stone completly which pissed me of to no end when it first happened to me XD
No, we're not counting Smash as canon. :p
i believe so but ill have to look it up honestly i think it does but if not slows it down a whole lot where sonic would probably be at a slight jog speed
Well, even so, it would unfreeze as soon as Kirby exited the stomach state (it might just represent Kirby instantly choosing a Copy Ability), so not much would be able to be done in the way of dodging.
 

Mizzy Moe

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No, we're not counting Smash as canon. :p
good XD

Well, even so, it would unfreeze as soon as Kirby exited the stomach state (it might just represent Kirby instantly choosing a Copy Ability), so not much would be able to be done in the way of dodging.
yeah i couldnt find like anything about it but since were goin off the games one hit sonic dies without rings so maybe he could go spike kirby from 64 the stone cutter combo and its sonic hittin spikes just like the old days XD

i dont know man you got me i love sonic so much and that speed changes everything XD
 

Munomario777

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yeah i couldnt find like anything about it but since were goin off the games one hit sonic dies without rings so maybe he could go spike kirby from 64 the stone cutter combo and its sonic hittin spikes just like the old days XD
Haha. Sonic does lose all of his Rings in one hit, but Super Sonic doesn't, so he should be fine. :p
i dont know man you got me i love sonic so much and that speed changes everything XD
Indeed it does.
 

Mizzy Moe

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Haha. Sonic does lose all of his Rings in one hit, but Super Sonic doesn't, so he should be fine. :p
haha come on you think sonic would be that worried about kirby that he would go super sonic at the start of facing kirby since he doesnt look all that intimidating and sonics not sure what hes capable of he beats more intimidating people all the time, chaos and all his forms, shadow (well i feel like theyre more even but i do think sonic has bested him at least once), eggmans robots (that e something in particular with all those rockets and guns but he beats the rest of the robots as well except metal sonic) and even knuckles without having to go super i dont think he would think this little pink balloon would be that strong so it would be either he just so happen to have at least one ring and lose it to running into the spikes or he would get inpaled. i know speed is sonics specialty but i dont think hed be able to stop in time to notice what happened granted kirby wasnt TOO far away and used it at the right time when sonic was closing in
 
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