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Who's Canonically the Strongest Character in Smash?

Munomario777

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Samus makes deliberate movement while using the light shaft and avoids face-planting as she travels from one region of Aether to the next. Samus must have nanosecond reaction time. This is supported by her ability to dodge wave beams as well. Nonsense. Link can outrun his own arrows in A Link to the Past using Pegasus boots. He must be running faster than 200 mi/h. Nonsense. LSD is 396 on the SPD. This must mean anything higher on the SPD is FTL. Nonsense.
The first two examples are based on real-life speeds that are assumed to apply in those worlds (the speed of an arrow, the speed of a wave beam), whereas the latter is based on directly stated speeds from lore (the speed of light).
Something happening once is dubious because it's treated as an outlier and therefore, inconsistent. Something is a coincidence if it happens once. If it keeps happening, it's no longer coincidence. It's fact.
And the Light Speed Dash measures at the same SPD whenever you pass through a checkpoint.
SPD is part of that.
How so?
I forgot to quote. I went back before you posted, which means you quoted me before I went back to correct it, but not posting until after I corrected it.
Ah, I see.
It doesn't look like that's what he's doing. Again, that argument is a non sequitur for reasons explained previously.
If Sonic says that exceeding light speed is no challenge, it would seem that he's done it before. Otherwise, he would have nothing to base this claim on.
So? Boosting is boosting. You'd need to prove the wisp energy is weaker than the ring energy.
Rings can fuel a Super or Hyper transformation, whereas Wisps cannot. We can see this in, say, Sonic Generations; if Sonic has collected a Wisp and is in his Super form, he will exit it after running out of Rings, and the Wisp cannot fuel it. The Wisps can fuel transformations (known as Color Powers), but they're simply weaker than Super forms. Aside from that, they're visually different as well. The boost in Unleashed is blue in hue, whereas the Sonic Colors DS version is rainbow-colored.
Or it's hubris.

Again, that's hubris. Now, let's say Runner B said, "A mile? That's small time. There's no challenge!" If that's not hubris, I don't know what is.
It seems rather out-of-character for Sonic, though. I mean, he can be a bit overconfident at times, but I don't recall him doing so to the extent of defying the laws of physics. He's an honest guy, after all. Now let's say that Runner A has been shown running a mile in ten seconds, and that speedometers etc have clocked him going at the necessary speeds. Putting aside real life physics etc limitations (since Sonic is far from real life), we'd be likely to believe him, right?
 

Reckless Godwin 2.0

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According to Wikipedia the cumulonimbus cloud can have an altitude of 6,500 – 60,000 meters. A typical lightning bolt travels 100,177.78 m/s. The time it would take to cover 6,500 m. would be 65 milliseconds. At 60,000 m., 599 milliseconds. Lightning from the ground is more powerful and deadlier. There's no way anyone could dodge that. There's no way anyone could dodge any kind of lightning because it's unpredictable in the first place. Second, no one has the reaction time to dodge lightning covering 6,500 m. In order to dodge it, one would need to be able to predict, sense, or otherwise have a low reaction time. (That's a kind of feat you want to be low, not high.)

Possibly Sonic.
So are you saying they are aim dodging rather than reflex dodging or would you classify that as a outlier? We could always calculate their reflexes with arrows and crossbow bolts (is there a notable difference between the two?) instead.

Boo Sonic!

Trick Room can't negate priority, so Vantage is superior.
Ok.

@ Kirby Dragons Kirby Dragons How would Magic Room effect Sonic’s rings or Emeralds?

Mewtwo’s Wonder Room (swaps DEF and S. DEF for 5 turns) might be useful against Pokemon Trainer’s Snorlax, Bowser and possibly others.

@ Munomario777 Munomario777 Counter and Miracle stand, so no excuses!
 

TMNTSSB4

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Pit, the man/boy killed Hades enough said.
 

Munomario777

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@ Munomario777 Munomario777 Counter and Miracle stand, so no excuses!
Let's not extrapolate. What is the most powerful attack that these work on? By the way, I noticed that the requirement for activating Counter is taking a non-lethal attack from an adjacent enemy. Does Miracle make lethal attacks fit this description? Also, given Sonic's speed, he'd be far from adjacent to Robin by the time he counter attacked. Finally, here's the biggest hole in this plan; Miracle only has a small chance of working. In fact, it is dependent on the luck stat, which is described as how much the gods of that world shine down on one. Since there's no outside help here, would Miracle etc not be disallowed?
 
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Pit, the man/boy killed Hades enough said.
Pit didn't kill Hades, the Sacred Treasure (and Palutena, once the Treasure went kerpowie) did. Pit was just the pilot.

In terms of physical strength, Samus wins. Hauling things many thousands of pounds heavier than you around with just the body is waaay harder than lifting really big rocks with gloves that give you Herculean strength or other such enhancements.

In terms of psychic strength, that would either go to Palutena or Mewtwo's Mega Y forme.

On the subject of Pokemon, though; I've wondered who the strongest Pokemon would be with maximum stats at Level 100, fully EV and IV trained with beneficial natures. Here's the stats I get for all the playable Pokemon in the Smash series;
  • Pichu (Electric) - 244 HP, 196 Attack, 141 Defense, 185 Special Attack, 185 Special Defense, 240 Speed.
  • Pikachu (Electric) - 274 HP, 229 Attack, 196 Defense, 218 Special Attack, 218 Special Defense, 306 Speed.
  • Jigglypuff (Normal/Fairy) - 434 HP, 207 Attack, 152 Defense, 207 Special Attack, 163 Special Defense, 152 Speed.
  • Squirtle (Water) - 292 HP, 214 Attack, 251 Defense, 218 Special Attack, 249 Special Defense, 203 Speed.
  • Ivysaur (Grass/Poison) - 324 HP, 245 Attack, 247 Defense, 284 Special Attack, 284 Special Defense, 240 Speed.
  • Lucario (Fighting/Steel) - 344 HP, 350 Attack, 262 Defense, 361 Special Attack, 262 Special Defense, 306 Speed.
  • Mega Lucario (Fighting/Steel) - 344 HP, 427 Attack, 302 Defense, 416 Special Attack, 262 Special Defense, 355 Speed.
  • Charizard (Fire/Flying) - 360 HP, 293 Attack, 280 Defense, 348 Special Attack, 295 Special Defense, 328 Speed.
  • Mega Charizard X (Fire/Dragon) - 360 HP, 394 Attack, 353 Defense, 394 Special Attack, 295 Special Defense, 328 Speed.
  • Greninja (Water/Dark) - 348 HP, 317 Attack, 256 Defense, 335 Special Attack, 265 Special Defense, 377 Speed.
  • Mewtwo (Psychic) - 416 HP, 350 Attack, 306 Defense, 447 Special Attack, 306 Special Defense, 394 Speed.
  • Mega Mewtwo Y (Psychic) - 416 HP, 438 Attack, 262 Defense, 535 Special Attack, 372 Special Defense, 416 Speed.
In terms of type matchups...
- Mewtwo is resistant to Lucario's primary type (Fighting) and damaged normally by his secondary type (Steel). He's damaged normally by pretty much all the other Pokemon types, too, except for Greninja's secondary typing (Dark).
- Charizard is weak to Squirtle and Pikachu's attacks, due to his Fire/Flying typing. Mega Charizard removes both issues with the added Dragon typing, which causes Water to inflict normal damage and Electric to become not very effective. Mega Charizard also resists Grass-type attacks, meaning Ivysaur is even more disadvantaged in that matchup than before; Mega Charizard also resists steel while dealing super-effective damage, meaning Lucario is pretty vulnerable to Mega Charizard. The added Dragon-typing also makes Jigglypuff super-effective, though; and Greninja remains a threat due to the Water-typing.
- Pikachu and Pichu, like Mega Charizard, resist Lucario's secondary typing and are only neutrally damaged by his primary type. In fact, no Pokemon in Smash has ever been Pikachu's, Pichu's and Charizard's weakness; Ground.
- Jigglypuff's Fairy-typing means she's weak to Lucario and Ivysaur (who have the Steel and Poison typings). She does super-effective damage against Mega Charizard X and is completely unaffected by Dragon Rush. She's damaged normally against all other represented types.
- Greninja is outright immune to Mewtwo's STAB-boosted attacks (Psychic), and resists Fire-type moves. He's also hit super-effectively by Pikachu, Jigglypuff , Ivysaur and Lucario, so really he's not as insane as the Psychic immunity makes him seem.

In terms of actual stats, Mewtwo decimates everyone else with his Mega forme (which is to this date the strongest Pokemon ever). In typings, Pikachu has the advantage since no Pokemon in the roster is Ground-type, but Charizard's Mega reigns supreme because of his resistances (even if Jigglypuff is a danger with the Fairy-typing).
 

Kirby Dragons

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That's not nearly as far as the anime.

Again, weaker than the anime.

Yes, a lot of weak, short launching.
Yet, they can launch Marx as far.
We see all of the planet that's actually hit by the explosion.
But not the things on the surface.
"Planetary threats" don't mean anything. How much force are said threats attacking Kirby with?
They are threats to planets using their attacks. The attacks they used on Kirby.
So Kirby gets electrocuted and paralyzed, and Samus follows up with a Power Bomb.
Kirby inhales the Wavebuster.
When is this stated?
Kirby creates tornadoes of varying sizes in the games.
I didn't see that in the videos.
Why not?
And Kirby doesn't show any signs of "weakening" his attacks. The velocity-based ones are a good example. The striking force of these comes from Kirby's speed and mass. He's not moving more slowly, and I doubt that he's reducing his mass. So the force is the same, yet only Marx launches that far.
Yet, Marx Soul teleports when he's defeated, so Kirby couldn't really get any good launch on him anyways.
That isn't proof.
And why not?
Negate means to nullify something, or make it ineffective. That's also what blocking means in this context.
No. It does not.
Is this proven?
If they say something, it's automatically proven.
I could be smacked with a laser emitter that could destroy the earth and survive, but that doesn't mean that I could survive something that can destroy a planet.
What does that have to do with anything?
And it doesn't "happen to" the suit of armor, as you put it.
It does happen to the armor, actually.
Pokemon do wait their turn, though; the whole battle system is turn-based.
They wait their turn, but why would they agree to have their opponent attack first?
Sonic could exit the area, freeze time, use Chaos Control to bring Mewtwo out of the room (Chaos Control can do this), and then fight outside of the AOE.
Mewtwo uses Me First, and it ends up freezing time instead of Sonic. Then, it uses Confusion until it works. Sonic gets confused
Disable can be blocked.
That rule was abolished by a 5-2 vote.
Even still, Sonic could simply freeze time instead.
Magic Room negates Sonic's Rings so he can't freeze time. Sonic would probably die instantly as well, due to ineffective Rings.
It can be blocked.
Rule abolished.
So Marx is the outlier.
Kirby just chooses not to launch enemies into space and destroy things that aren't there.
Some of it is, but that doesn't mean that all of it is.
Some of the MK clone's equipment could be the same. A varying amount of it.
I don't see Kirby flying to negate any major horizontal movement. He stops when he lands on the platform, but that's due to the friction.
He flies up right before he hits the platform, thus replacing the horizontal movement with vertical movement.
If his stomach is that big, it shouldn't fit in there to begin with. It seems to be more of a portal.
If it was a portal, it would stop the brain from connecting to anything.
What's odd about this is the fact that Kirby can actually enter that area himself.
Kirby didn't really enter it. It was an astral projection, or something like that.
I don't see how Sonic not being able to be in the area of a whole city at once means that he'd have to hit Kirby multiple times. A city is big, so Sonic has to traverse all of it. Kirby is small, so Sonic can take care of him all at once.
Except if Sonic takes so long to destroy a city, it should take him longer to destroy someone with a greater durability.
The space behind the explosion is dark, so the explosion appears dark when it really isn't. Notice that this is only around the edges, where the darkness and lightness in the image are next to each other.
There is a lot of dark purple energy dust around the explosion, which isn't due to the color of space.
And the fireballs are surrounding him.
A) Kirby turns and inhales them all.
B) Kirby becomes Water Kirby and sprays water into Bowser's mouth, preventing him from breathing fire.
Can he survive being crushed by things as massive as Giga Bowser?
You mean Giga Bowser's hands? Yes.

Also, Sleep Kirby puts Bowser to sleep. Baton Kirby blows up his eyes. Ultra Sword Kirby chops him in half.
Burning logs are fire. Star Spits are stars.
Point?
I have. Kirby cannot move after falling off of his Warp Star. The evidence is in the games.
If there isn't a logical explanation for that, it's a game mechanic.
Do we see him charging prior to this?
We don't see if he does.
So, what about someone using a telescope to observe the enemy proves that said enemy is in outer space?
Telescopes are used to view space.
Mario is faster than that.
What about the fireball?
The Gold Flower still takes effect.
But Kirby dodges it.

Also, you're assuming that Kirby is a regular enemy, and he obviously isn't.
You said that Mario switching power-ups gives Kirby an opening to use Stone. I pointed out that since it's instantaneous, Kirby would have no such window before Mario used a Mega Mushroom, Starman, etc.
Mario already used those.
It's literally Mario with a different hat on. The in-game animation actually shows him putting it on (given you don't skip it by using the item in midair).
Nevertheless, it's still a transformation.
He has a drill item.
Can it go through concrete?
He can wake up instantly, as seen in his idle animations in games like Mario 64.
Fair enough.
Starman, etc,
Which Mario already used.
or just escaping Kirby's tiny and rather weak grab.
Kirby doesn't have a weak grab.
So do Mario's. Reveal Glass has less similarities here.
Explain.
And there are more Mega Stones than Reveal Glasses. Reveal Glass is the rare case, so we use the more common case, that being Mega Stones.
Right, but it cannot destroy cardboard.
Then it has less force.
You are creating conditions for objects (spinning wheel, certain pairs of scissors), making your argument unrelated to the unconditional attacks here.
Either way, we agreed that at most, it's a deity attack.
Which is more than a crushing wall, so it kills Mario.
I don't see how this is an opinion. So in your opinion, if I turned into a jar containing pickles (and said pickles were absent beforehand), I didn't also morph into the pickles?
Yes.

If there's one of you, how did you transform into multiple pickles?
Which Pokemon often throws out the window.
And often keeps, too.
If they're not non-canon, then why was this matter even brought up?
I was saying that cutscenes aren't made specifically for a certain topic, but gameplay is, so cutscenes are more accurate.
He changes which hand he's swinging with, but the baton itself is still spinning counterclockwise.
It switches direction too.
Sonic could come from below the Warp Star. Inhale simply cannot cover all angles at once.
Except Kirby's spinning the Warp Star around, so Inhale does cover all angles.
See the Shadow the Hedgehog opening clip I provided earlier, showing Chaos Control's speed.
A) That isn't time freezing.
B) That's about 1/4 a second.
C) Even if Kirby couldn't pick it up, he could still touch it, thus gaining invincibility.
Sonic would likely boost at the start of the match.
A) Actually, he'd likely become Super Sonic at the start of the match.
B) They are too far away from each other for the Boost to reach Kirby. After Kirby saw Sonic using the Boost, he'd know to keep his inhale up.
It's stated to move at light speed.
When?
You said that since the battery is mentioned, the love must come from the battery. The battery isn't present or mentioned in Pikmin 1, yet Olimar expresses love. The love is not coming from the battery.
Olimar expresses love in Pikmin 1 because there's nothing else to express. In Pikmin 2, Olimar is expressing the battery, and he mentions love.
The ship as a whole has a personality. I could see something with my eyes, which lack a personality, but I still have a personality.
And your eyes don't lie, thus proving my point.
How does one lose stress from undergoing recovery meant for getting rid of a concussion?
He doesn't. He loses stress from undergoing recovery meant for getting rid of stress.
I seriously doubt that plants could stop a bullet at all, at least on that small of a scale.
The bullet would be smaller than the plants are.
Since they became a decent military force.
And how do you know they became one?
He's the one approving the deceptive sales pitches.
He didn't create them though.
Does he always destroy all of the monsters in the area before acquiring the knife?
Depends on the playthrough.
Louie calls himself the "king of bugs". The ship backs this theory up. Olimar is the only disbeliever here, and he's wrong.
In his own mind, he's right due to logic.
Ah.
All apples are fruits, but not all fruits are apples. My leg could have growing pains, but I'm not actually damaged.
But in Pikmin, things that cause pain cause damage.
Irresponsibility.
Irresponsibility isn't a symptom.
Throwing tiny plant people at gigantic beasts. Dangerous for the Pikmin, anyway.
And destroying the beasts.
There's irresponsibility, faulty conclusion-making (or whatever you wanna call the king of bugs deal), etc.
None of those are symptoms.
They're held together. Everything technically has a tiny gap in between the molecules, but water droplets are bigger than those gaps, so they don't get through. This is just that principle on a larger scale.
Water has loose molecules. They'd slip through small spaces.
I'm pretty sure bits of stars aren't energy for talking stars that will one day become full stars.
Thus, supporting my point.
When is this proven/stated/demonstrated?
By logic. If she is using a forcefield, she is already using the wand's power, and can't use it for anything else.
There is no solid "diagonal" in space.
So, what does this prove?
No, they don't. Mario black holes have a larger AOE, and a more powerful pulling force.
How do you know they have a larger AoE? Kirby black holes have a pulling force that's an OHKO, meaning they have equal pulling force.
Because that area is the actual black part.
The area that isn't in front of the black hole has the same black, meaning that the black in front of the black hole isn't caused by distortion.
Schwarz =/= Mario black hole,
False.
and both =/= IRL black holes.
Irrelevant.
There are a lot of galaxies containing them.
A lot of them?
They can control where they go; they go away from the Observatory.
They are launched away from the Observatory.
They don't in-game.
A game mechanic.
It's too fast to actually see it happen, of course. Destroying something requires interacting with it in some way.
But not taking it away, like Sonic would try to do to Falchion.
If you're saying that the car can explode while time is frozen, then why can Sonic not move the sword while time is frozen?
He isn't making it explode.
Look again, then.
He rose up, and the tornado was created. That wasn't instant.
The Blue Tornado is created using speed, so the Boost would work fine.
Sonic can't control his direction when boosting, so no.
Still, Sonic could Boost and curl up into a ball at the same time if he needed to.
Sonic needs his legs to boost. He can't use them in ball form.
His body is feral. His personality is intact.
A body can't be feral.
It isn't his body that causes him to howl.
Not exactly. I think it may have to do with natural wolf instinct. See, wolves howl for multiple reasons. Firstly, they might howl to defend their territory, or rally packs together. Sonic howls at the beginning of a night mission, which would make sense since he's defending "territory", in this case the earth, from Dark Gaia's monsters. Wolves also howl at sunset and sunrise, and this could also make sense since Sonic is howling at the start of the night mission. I'm not sure if he howls right when he transforms, but if so, this would explain it.
Sonic knows that Dark Gaia's monsters aren't present until he arrives, and thus that howling won't scare them away.
Sonic's drowning is due to lack of oxygen, since he prevents drowning by breathing in air bubbles for their oxygen.
He can go without breathing in other situations, though.
He does have the ability to use Chaos Control.
But he doesn't have complete control over it.
If Kirby is busy attacking, Samus uses a Power Bomb.
Jet Kirby can strike at Mach 5 speeds. That's enough time to escape before the Power Bomb explodes, especially since it has some lag.
She presses a button, and the ship does the rest of the work. After pressing the button, Samus would be able to do whatever she wants.
Its force hits the guard, and gets reflected back.
If the force hit the guard, it wouldn't hit anything else.
If it melts the guard, then the Power Bomb/other attack hits Kirby and he dies.
A) The attack is melting the guard, it can't hit Kirby.
B) Some of the attack would still be reflected back.
C) Under Mirror Kirby's guard is another guard. Miraculous, eh?
It's quick enough to handle quite a few fighters.
None of those guys were trying to escape. Even so, all of the top tier characters have counters for Mega Mario.
:4shulk:: M100 Armor
:mewtwopm:: Flying
:kirby2:: Flying/Invisibility Stone
:4palutena:: Flying/Transparency
:ness2:: Teleport/Bicycle
:metaknight:: Flying/Invisibility Stone
:marth:: Falchion
:ganondorf:: Immunity
:sonic:: Running
:samus2:: Speed Booster
:rosalina:: Flying
:link2:: Pegasus Boots
:dedede:: Flying/Invisibility Stone/Tank
:ike:: Sol/Patience
:younglinkmelee:: Bunny Hood
:toonlink:: Pegasus Boots
:pit:: Brawler Claws
:4darkpit:: Brawler Claws
:pt:: Protect
And we don't, so there is no proof. There's also no proof that Olimar observes this, or that it even happened to begin with.
The journal proves everything.
The battery is not the source of Olimar's love.
See above.
So we can't assume that Kirby is enduring "infinite force", especially when he dies from finite force much more often.
How does Magolor wearing the crown prove that Kirby isn't enduring infinite force?
We shouldn't assume that something like this can handle anything unless there's some sort of explanation for it doing so (i.e. storing the attack force in a magical, endless bottle and delivering it back, or gaining back a sliver of health after being "killed" by a fatal attack).
Force shouldn't really determine what Counter returns, nor should it determine what Miracle negates. It's not like the skills withstand the attacks or anything. They basically cause effects on the attacks.
Yes. I will also let you know that there is a material known as cordite in that game, which requires multiple military-grade missiles to destroy, and yet, all it takes is a single super missile to destroy it. Meta Ridley takes quite a number of super missiles to defeat him, and even then, after he's knocked right off the Artifact Temple, which I've calculated to be 13 storeys (42.9 meters; 140.75 feet), he still survives as evinced in Metroid Prime 3: Corruption.
If Samus is attacking Meta Ridley's weak spot, it doesn't really prove anything about the strength of her attacks. The cordite, and Ridley's fall, are more impressive, but I still don't believe they stack up to planetary durability.
Then you can show me ones equivalent to that of Marx.
Here you go.
@ Kirby Dragons Kirby Dragons How would Magic Room effect Sonic’s rings or Emeralds?
I see the emeralds as equivalents to Mega Stones and unaffected by Magic Room, but using Magic Room on the Rings would probably kill Sonic.
Mewtwo’s Wonder Room (swaps DEF and S. DEF for 5 turns) might be useful against Pokemon Trainer’s Snorlax, Bowser and possibly others.
Yeah, pretty much anyone who's durable.
 

Munomario777

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Yet, they can launch Marx as far.
They launch Marx about a foot sideways, and then he is propelled upwards by another force.
But not the things on the surface.
We do in the credits.
They are threats to planets using their attacks. The attacks they used on Kirby.
Such as?
Kirby inhales the Wavebuster.
Samus shoots another one while his mouth is full. Can Kirby actually inhale electricity in the first place?
Kirby creates tornadoes of varying sizes in the games.
Show one that's the size of that found in the anime, then.
A yard is three feet, and Kirby is only eight inches tall. The scale seems to suggest that it's not a yard, but I might be wrong.
Yet, Marx Soul teleports when he's defeated, so Kirby couldn't really get any good launch on him anyways.
There's a sizeable delay between the final hit and the teleport, and he doesn't get knocked back at all.
And why not?
Because he could very well be lying, misled, etc.
No. It does not.
Why not?
If they say something, it's automatically proven.
Are you talking about the creators of the Pokemon series/movie/etc, or the creators of Mewtwo in-universe?
What does that have to do with anything?
An object having the power to destroy a planet doesn't mean that every attack from that object has the power to destroy a planet.
It does happen to the armor, actually.
The effect of the sword (cutting through something) doesn't.
They wait their turn, but why would they agree to have their opponent attack first?
Because that's how Pokemon rules work, and all trainers agree to them.
Mewtwo uses Me First, and it ends up freezing time instead of Sonic. Then, it uses Confusion until it works. Sonic gets confused
"If the foe has not made the first move, Me First copies any damage-dealing move that the target is about to use and increases the power by 50%. It will fail if the foe uses a non-damaging move." - Bulbapedia
A) Time freezing doesn't deal damage.
B) Sonic will always make the first move.
That rule was abolished by a 5-2 vote.
Prove that it could penetrate Super Sonic, then.
Magic Room negates Sonic's Rings so he can't freeze time. Sonic would probably die instantly as well, due to ineffective Rings.
Magic Room negates held items. Sonic doesn't hold his Rings, and he'd be using the Emeralds here anyways.
Rule abolished.
Prove that it affects Super Sonic.
Kirby just chooses not to launch enemies into space and destroy things that aren't there.
He's using the same attacks, with the same amount of force. One does not simply choose when physics do and do not apply.
Some of the MK clone's equipment could be the same. A varying amount of it.
And thus we can't assume that all of it is the same.
He flies up right before he hits the platform, thus replacing the horizontal movement with vertical movement.
Do you have a clearer demonstration?
If it was a portal, it would stop the brain from connecting to anything.
Why is that? His mouth could be a portal, and that would leave plenty of room for internal organs.
Kirby didn't really enter it. It was an astral projection, or something like that.
Interesting.
Except if Sonic takes so long to destroy a city, it should take him longer to destroy someone with a greater durability.
You don't seem to understand the concepts at work here. If a city was condensed into a small enough space, Sonic could likely take it out in one or maybe two hits. However, since it's so big, and Sonic can only be in one place at once, he has to traverse that entire city, which even at light speed, is slower than the alternative (although not by much). Since Kirby is such a small target, Sonic can hit all of him at once, so he can take him out very quickly. It's not the durability that would give him "trouble", it's the area the city takes up.
There is a lot of dark purple energy dust around the explosion, which isn't due to the color of space.
The main explosion is pink, and space is dark. Purple is almost like a darker pink, so pink + dark = purple.
A) Kirby turns and inhales them all.
B) Kirby becomes Water Kirby and sprays water into Bowser's mouth, preventing him from breathing fire.
A) His mouth would be full after inhaling a few, and then they would hit him.
B) Meanwhile, Kirby is vulnerable from being in his water form and having to switch Copy Abilities, so Bowser strikes.
You mean Giga Bowser's hands? Yes.
No, I mean his entire weight. What if Giga Bowser sits on Kirby, or better yet, lies on him with his spiky shell?
Also, Sleep Kirby puts Bowser to sleep. Baton Kirby blows up his eyes. Ultra Sword Kirby chops him in half.
Sleep Kirby is vulnerable to attacks. He's defenseless. Baton Kirby wouldn't be able to get through due to Bowser's hands etc getting in the way, and if he did, it takes a while to explode a Baton victim. Ultra Sword hasn't been shown to chop through something as tough as Bowser.
Thus, burning logs are closer to flamethrowers.
If there isn't a logical explanation for that, it's a game mechanic.
If you get in a car crash, you'll be put into a state of shock. If Kirby crashes his Warp Star, he's put into a state of shock.
We don't see if he does.
Then we can't assume that it's the same technique, because there's no evidence that it is.
Telescopes are used to view space.
And faraway things that are not in space.
What about the fireball?
It is too.
But Kirby dodges it.
But he's far too slow.
Also, you're assuming that Kirby is a regular enemy, and he obviously isn't.
Right, he's smaller than one.
Mario already used those.
Alternatively, Mario could just dodge the rather telegraphed attack. He's the master of stomping on things; he knows a stomping attack when he sees one.
Nevertheless, it's still a transformation.
Mario doesn't transform. He simply wears a different hat.
Can it go through concrete?
I can't remember off of the top of my head, but real life drills can.
Which Mario already used.
Any other attack, then.
Kirby doesn't have a weak grab.
Prove its strength.
Mario's abilities change, like the Mega Evolutions change abilities. Mega Evolutions are both more similar to power-ups and more common than the Reveal Glass, so we use them as the comparison.
Then it has less force.
A wheel spinning at 10,000 RPM (hypothetical number) has less force than a pair of scissors, then?
You are creating conditions for objects (spinning wheel, certain pairs of scissors), making your argument unrelated to the unconditional attacks here.
I don't see how a spinning wheel and a chopping pair of scissors are more conditional than an active laser and a moving wall.
Which is more than a crushing wall, so it kills Mario.
This is about Sonic. Also, Mario's invincibility items do destroy crushing walls when they're not part of the environment, such as Thwomps.
Then where did the pickles come from?
If there's one of you, how did you transform into multiple pickles?
Seeing as how Lumas already turn into multiple planetoids etc, this doesn't seem to be a limitation for them.
And often keeps, too.
But as we can see from the multiple nonsensical things in Pokemon, simply "making sense" in our world isn't solid proof.
I was saying that cutscenes aren't made specifically for a certain topic, but gameplay is, so cutscenes are more accurate.
Cutscenes are made to progress the story.
It switches direction too.
No, it's still spinning counterclockwise.
Except Kirby's spinning the Warp Star around, so Inhale does cover all angles.
Not all at once. If Kirby is spinning the Warp Star around, Sonic simply attacks from below, through the Warp Star.
A) That isn't time freezing.
B) That's about 1/4 a second.
C) Even if Kirby couldn't pick it up, he could still touch it, thus gaining invincibility.
A) They're both Chaos Control.
B) I suppose.
C) Does the stone become invincible too? If not, Sonic could simply remove it.
A) Actually, he'd likely become Super Sonic at the start of the match.
B) They are too far away from each other for the Boost to reach Kirby. After Kirby saw Sonic using the Boost, he'd know to keep his inhale up.
A) Yes, while racing towards Kirby. The transformation takes only a fraction of a second.
B) The boost travels at extremely high speeds. The exact speeds are unknown (it's being debated currently whether or not it's FTL), but we know that Sonic can run at hypersonic speeds without the boost. Hypersonic is, at minimum, Mach 5.5, or around 4186.63 mph. And Sonic can reach these speeds instantly. Has Kirby been shown to react to that?
Olimar expresses love in Pikmin 1 because there's nothing else to express.
What is that supposed to mean?
In Pikmin 2, Olimar is expressing the battery, and he mentions love.
How does one "express" a battery?
And your eyes don't lie, thus proving my point.
And my brain can. My brain = the ship's A.I.
He doesn't. He loses stress from undergoing recovery meant for getting rid of stress.
Such as?
The bullet would be smaller than the plants are.
And thus it's easier for the bullet to penetrate the plants. A smaller point of impact makes it easier to penetrate something; that's why a sharp knife cuts more easily than a dull one.
And how do you know they became one?
If this society has spaceships, then I'd imagine they also have access to missiles. They're an advanced society.
He didn't create them though.
He approved them. Doing nothing to stop a bad thing from happening is almost as bad as doing it yourself.
Depends on the playthrough.
Do you have a video of a playthrough where there are no monsters remaining when the knife is obtained?
In his own mind, he's right due to logic.
And his mind is wrong.
But in Pikmin, things that cause pain cause damage.
And why does this mean that depression isn't present because Olimar doesn't take damage?
Irresponsibility isn't a symptom.
It does show that he might not be the best at decision making.
And destroying the beasts.
And running the risk of destroying the Pikmin.
None of those are symptoms.
King of bugs syndrome (original disorder, do not steal) shows that he's bad at making accurate conclusions, which tells us that the dimensional cutter's description is even more likely to be faulty.
Water has loose molecules. They'd slip through small spaces.
Except here, they're held together.
Thus, supporting my point.
How so?
By logic. If she is using a forcefield, she is already using the wand's power, and can't use it for anything else.
When is this limitation shown?
So, what does this prove?
That your "it doesn't work diagonally" argument both makes no sense and has no footing.
How do you know they have a larger AoE?
Mario can be pulled in from very far away in the games.
Kirby black holes have a pulling force that's an OHKO, meaning they have equal pulling force.
The OHKO isn't the pulling force. The pulling force is what's bringing the victim to that OHKO. Mario can't escape from his, and they pull him in faster than Schwarz does Kirby, so they have a higher pulling force.
The area that isn't in front of the black hole has the same black, meaning that the black in front of the black hole isn't caused by distortion.
Right, it's caused by light not being able to escape, like in real life. Or it could just be that the black hole is actually black, but I'm not sure.
True.
Irrelevant.
Relevant to Kirby's durability/resistance to forces/etc.
A lot of them?
Yes, a lot of them.
They are launched away from the Observatory.
No, they propel themselves away from the Observatory.
A game mechanic.
Becuase...?
But not taking it away, like Sonic would try to do to Falchion.
Taking something away is an interaction, as is destroying something. Both would not work if Sonic couldn't interact with objects while time is frozen, but he can.
He isn't making it explode.
Knocking something back, tearing it apart, etc also require interaction and movement.
He rose up, and the tornado was created. That wasn't instant.
It takes less than a second, and again, with a higher speed, this time would be greatly reduced.
Sonic can't control his direction when boosting, so no.
Right, the boost doesn't have great handling. I suppose hypersonic speeds will have to do, then.
Sonic needs his legs to boost. He can't use them in ball form.
He can roll and boost in games like Sonic Colors for the DS. If Sonic can't roll and boost at the same time, it's usually because he's missing one of the techniques in that particular game.
A body can't be feral.
Why can't a body be feral?
It isn't his body that causes him to howl.
It enables him to, and wolf instincts seem to be the cause.
Sonic knows that Dark Gaia's monsters aren't present until he arrives, and thus that howling won't scare them away.
The purpose of a wolf's howl isn't to scare away foes. It's more like a war cry.
He can go without breathing in other situations, though.
But not underwater.
But he doesn't have complete control over it.
Prove it.
Jet Kirby can strike at Mach 5 speeds. That's enough time to escape before the Power Bomb explodes, especially since it has some lag.
Jet Kirby has lag, too; he needs to charge up.
If the force hit the guard, it wouldn't hit anything else.
Unless the attack is strong enough to break through the guard.
A) The attack is melting the guard, it can't hit Kirby.
B) Some of the attack would still be reflected back.
C) Under Mirror Kirby's guard is another guard. Miraculous, eh?
A) It melts through the guard and gets to Kirby.
B) Prove it.
C) You mean the regular one? That one is much weaker.
None of those guys were trying to escape.
The speed speaks for itself.
Even so, all of the top tier characters have counters for Mega Mario.
:4shulk:: M100 Armor
How durable is it?
How fast is it?
:4palutena:: Flying/Transparency
:ness2:: Teleport/Bicycle
How fast?
:marth:: Falchion
How much force can it "seal"?
:ike:: Sol/Patience
Sol can't heal after the user has already been killed, can it? What does Patience do?
:pt:: Protect
Can it protect the Trainer?
The journal proves everything.
The journal is unreliable, because it comes from Olimar, who is unreliable.
How does Magolor wearing the crown prove that Kirby isn't enduring infinite force?
Magolor is mortal, correct? Mortal beings often cannot handle or control infinite power.
Force shouldn't really determine what Counter returns, nor should it determine what Miracle negates. It's not like the skills withstand the attacks or anything. They basically cause effects on the attacks.
What is the explanation for this?
If Samus is attacking Meta Ridley's weak spot, it doesn't really prove anything about the strength of her attacks. The cordite, and Ridley's fall, are more impressive, but I still don't believe they stack up to planetary durability.
Is Kirby hit by the same exact attack that destroys a planet?
First round. Nightmare explodes a bit, and then floats off. No launching here.
Second round. Nightmare is launched a small distance, teleports to the center of the screen, and explodes. No Marx-level launching here.
Third round. Wait, there isn't one.
I see the emeralds as equivalents to Mega Stones and unaffected by Magic Room, but using Magic Room on the Rings would probably kill Sonic.
Sonic doesn't automatically die when he loses his Rings. Even so, they're not "held" by him; they're absorbed into his body.
 

TMNTSSB4

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Pit didn't kill Hades, the Sacred Treasure (and Palutena, once the Treasure went kerpowie) did. Pit was just the pilot.
Link has to kill Ganondorf and others with a sword, Samus has to use a power suit to kill Ridley, and Mario uses powerups to defeat Bowser, everyone in Nintendo use something to defeat a final boss. Pit was all by himself defeating Medusa and others at the age of probably 8 or something. Plus the fact that he had to go through suffering WAY worse than Samus did in any of her games. Pit had to watch the place he lived in and loved destroyed, human dying, his goddess corrupted, and pretty much died(all as a 13-16 year old), yet he still didn't affect him. The only time Samus was hurt was Super Metroid when that baby metroid died and the virus from Fusion. I don't count Other M at all for anything.
 

Munomario777

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Link has to kill Ganondorf and others with a sword, Samus has to use a power suit to kill Ridley, and Mario uses powerups to defeat Bowser, everyone in Nintendo use something to defeat a final boss. Pit was all by himself defeating Medusa and others at the age of probably 8 or something. Plus the fact that he had to go through suffering WAY worse than Samus did in any of her games. Pit had to watch the place he lived in and loved destroyed, human dying, his goddess corrupted, and pretty much died(all as a 13-16 year old), yet he still didn't affect him. The only time Samus was hurt was Super Metroid when that baby metroid died and the virus from Fusion. I don't count Other M at all for anything.
Characters are getting their tools here, so using tools isn't really an issue. Still, just "defeating a god" isn't anything special. Kid Icarus gods are far from all-powerful.
 
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Link has to kill Ganondorf and others with a sword, Samus has to use a power suit to kill Ridley, and Mario uses powerups to defeat Bowser, everyone in Nintendo use something to defeat a final boss. Pit was all by himself defeating Medusa and others at the age of probably 8 or something. Plus the fact that he had to go through suffering WAY worse than Samus did in any of her games. Pit had to watch the place he lived in and loved destroyed, human dying, his goddess corrupted, and pretty much died(all as a 13-16 year old), yet he still didn't affect him. The only time Samus was hurt was Super Metroid when that baby metroid died and the virus from Fusion. I don't count Other M at all for anything.
We can't just discredit Other M as a game because of it's story; it's still a canon game, so it still counts as far as Samus goes.

And saying Samus hasn't gone through hell is a goddamn lie; Pit didn't see his mother be murdered in front of him by the leader of an army at the age of 3 years old, did he? He doesn't need to suffer the emotional baggage of being the only survivor of an genocidal attack and having to constantly see the thing that murdered his family revive itself from the dead; which is far worse than really anything Pit goes through in Uprising. Sure, he's close to Palutena, but she is in no way extremely close to him in a maternal sense. Samus had a mother and father, but both of them were killed by Ridley; her mother directly and her father killing himself to try and destroy Ridley. Hades is the god of death, but he doesn't do ANYTHING CLOSE to what Ridley has done to Samus.

If Pit went through the same hell Samus did, I'm absolutely certain he'd become a recluse.
 

Crystanium

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The first two examples are based on real-life speeds that are assumed to apply in those worlds (the speed of an arrow, the speed of a wave beam), whereas the latter is based on directly stated speeds from lore (the speed of light).
Speed of light is a real world speed. This is applicable to both Samus and Sonic.

And the Light Speed Dash measures at the same SPD whenever you pass through a checkpoint.
Only in Unleashed. However, I think you might find it interesting that Sonic's speed with the boost has been calculated to be 1,729.78 km/h. However, they used 331.1 m/s, not 343 m/s, so it should actually be 1,743.4368 km/h, or Mach 1.41. I tested this out with Samus and found the same results for her. Interesting they have very similar or exact cone angles. In other words . . .

  • Sonic is faster than Samus if she's outside her power suit.
  • Samus is faster than Sonic if she's in her power suit using the speed booster and if Sonic isn't using any boosts.
  • Sonic is on equal footing with Samus if he uses his boosts.
  • Samus is faster than Sonic when using the shinespark, which is evinced not only by Super Metroid, but the fact that the Mach angle is lower, about by 25°, which is Mach 2 (2,472.96 km/h)
  • Sonic is faster than Samus since we're told he can reach hypersonic speed.
  • Sonic is faster than Samus with the light speed dash, but only briefly.

The HUD shows the timer and SPD.

If Sonic says that exceeding light speed is no challenge, it would seem that he's done it before. Otherwise, he would have nothing to base this claim on.
Or he's overly self-confident. He's been that way a number of times throughout the series, has he not? Sonic probably has pushed himself beyond his limits before in order to reach the speeds he's at now.

Rings can fuel a Super or Hyper transformation, whereas Wisps cannot. We can see this in, say, Sonic Generations; if Sonic has collected a Wisp and is in his Super form, he will exit it after running out of Rings, and the Wisp cannot fuel it. The Wisps can fuel transformations (known as Color Powers), but they're simply weaker than Super forms. Aside from that, they're visually different as well. The boost in Unleashed is blue in hue, whereas the Sonic Colors DS version is rainbow-colored.
That doesn't tell us the wisps are weaker. All it tells us is that it's a different fuel. You'd use gasoline to power your car, but you wouldn't use wind.

It seems rather out-of-character for Sonic, though. I mean, he can be a bit overconfident at times, but I don't recall him doing so to the extent of defying the laws of physics. He's an honest guy, after all. Now let's say that Runner A has been shown running a mile in ten seconds, and that speedometers etc have clocked him going at the necessary speeds. Putting aside real life physics etc limitations (since Sonic is far from real life), we'd be likely to believe him, right?
If you can travel FTL in our universe, you're defying the laws of physics, or demonstrating that Einstein was wrong. In fact, if you can run at the speed of light, you're already showing Einstein was wrong. This is clearly not defying physics in the Sonicverse, so I don't see the issue of FTL, especially if Sonic thinks it's not a challenge.

We would believe Runner A if he actually did it. So you'll say that the SPD records Sonic doing that, but considering that's part of the HUD, which you dismiss, it's not worth accepting. If you did accept the HUD, then you'd have to accept the timer, which contradicts the SPD.

Aside from that, Sonic is showing a shock wave, meaning he's not running at the speed of light. That's another visual you'll have to accept, especially since it's been seen consistently throughout the 3D Sonic games. It'd be more reasonable to take 2,800 SPD to refer to km/h, since 2,800 SPD would translate to Mach 2.27, which falls into the supersonic range where shock waves occur.

So are you saying they are aim dodging rather than reflex dodging or would you classify that as a outlier? We could always calculate their reflexes with arrows and crossbow bolts (is there a notable difference between the two?) instead.
If the former, that'd probably be based on the fact that the characters in FE need to do certain motions. It's like in Metroid: Zero Mission where the mural of the Chozo god of war glows, giving Samus the chance to get out of the way, or in the case of Mega Man against Cloud Man where a flash occurs, letting Mega Man know he should dodge.

If Samus is attacking Meta Ridley's weak spot, it doesn't really prove anything about the strength of her attacks. The cordite, and Ridley's fall, are more impressive, but I still don't believe they stack up to planetary durability.
It's only considered a "weak spot" because the plating is thinner in that area. Considering it can take multiple super missiles, whereas cordite can only take one super missile and is known for withstanding multiple military-grade missiles, that's pretty impressive. I wasn't saying Ridley has planetary durability, though. Dark Samus, on the other hand . . .

I'm not seeing anything here, except Enemy's death resulting in the destruction of a large portion of the Moon, which I wouldn't even say is our moon.
 
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Munomario777

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Speed of light is a real world speed. This is applicable to both Samus and Sonic.
Still, the Samus example doesn't mean that she has that kind of reaction time. She could be "aim dodging", as you put it.
Only in Unleashed.
Because no other game uses SPD.
However, I think you might find it interesting that Sonic's speed with the boost has been calculated to be 1,729.78 km/h. However, they used 331.1 m/s, not 343 m/s, so it should actually be 1,743.4368 km/h, or Mach 1.41. I tested this out with Samus and found the same results for her. Interesting they have very similar or exact cone angles. In other words . . .

  • Sonic is faster than Samus if she's outside her power suit.
  • Samus is faster than Sonic if she's in her power suit using the speed booster and if Sonic isn't using any boosts.
  • Sonic is on equal footing with Samus if he uses his boosts.
  • Samus is faster than Sonic when using the shinespark, which is evinced not only by Super Metroid, but the fact that the Mach angle is lower, about by 25°, which is Mach 2 (2,472.96 km/h)
  • Sonic is faster than Samus since we're told he can reach hypersonic speed.
  • Sonic is faster than Samus with the light speed dash, but only briefly.
A) They calculated this in Sonic Generations, not Unleashed.
B) They're assuming that the aura of blue energy is a mach cone, whereas it's really a manifestation of energy to create a destructive aura. We can see similar blue energy fly into Sonic's body when he gains boost power by, say, defeating a Badnik.
C) Sonic has been stated to go at least at hypersonic speeds way before he got the boost (in Sonic Adventure), so him going only at Mach 1.41 with his speed-enhancing boost ability doesn't make much sense.
Or he's overly self-confident. He's been that way a number of times throughout the series, has he not? Sonic probably has pushed himself beyond his limits before in order to reach the speeds he's at now.
He can be a bit over-confident, but I don't remember him ever saying that he can do something that he can't.
That doesn't tell us the wisps are weaker. All it tells us is that it's a different fuel. You'd use gasoline to power your car, but you wouldn't use wind.
Fair enough. Another explanation could be that Sonic is simply better at using Rings for fuel than he is at using Wisps. Sonic has picked up thousands of Rings by this point, whereas in Sonic Colors, he's just met them for the first time. He manages to make do with an altered version of the boost, but it's not quite as fast as the other version.
If you can travel FTL in our universe, you're defying the laws of physics, or demonstrating that Einstein was wrong. In fact, if you can run at the speed of light, you're already showing Einstein was wrong. This is clearly not defying physics in the Sonicverse, so I don't see the issue of FTL, especially if Sonic thinks it's not a challenge.
Traveling at the speed of light and faster than the speed of light are two different things, but I see your point.
We would believe Runner A if he actually did it. So you'll say that the SPD records Sonic doing that, but considering that's part of the HUD, which you dismiss, it's not worth accepting. If you did accept the HUD, then you'd have to accept the timer, which contradicts the SPD.
The timer is based on real-world time, whereas the SPD is based on in-universe events. Either way, the speed statements override gameplay, since gameplay is not capable of accurately showing FTL speeds. If they slowed the timer down, it would just be really confusing for speed runs and such, and that's why the timer is there in the first place.
Aside from that, Sonic is showing a shock wave, meaning he's not running at the speed of light. That's another visual you'll have to accept, especially since it's been seen consistently throughout the 3D Sonic games.
Why would a FTL object not create a shock wave?
It'd be more reasonable to take 2,800 SPD to refer to km/h, since 2,800 SPD would translate to Mach 2.27, which falls into the supersonic range where shock waves occur.
Then why is light speed only 396 km/h?​
 

Crystanium

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Odd that my quotes didn't properly go through. I'll correct that.

Still, the Samus example doesn't mean that she has that kind of reaction time. She could be "aim dodging", as you put it.
You can't aim-dodge if something isn't being shot at you. Samus is traveling at light speed. She makes movements during this period. She reacts to avoid face-planting. Do I accept nanosecond reaction time? Using the wave beams as another example, I could. Am I? No. Why? There's not enough evidence, just like the 396 SPD.

Because no other game uses SPD.
I know. That's the problem.

A) They calculated this in Sonic Generations, not Unleashed.
So?

B) They're assuming that the aura of blue energy is a mach cone, whereas it's really a manifestation of energy to create a destructive aura. We can see similar blue energy fly into Sonic's body when he gains boost power by, say, defeating a Badnik.
The visuals aren't always the same. See below. Also, I thought this image was interesting.



300 mi/h? And what does that read from the SPD? Apparently, this comes from a rep of Sega.

C) Sonic has been stated to go at least at hypersonic speeds way before he got the boost (in Sonic Adventure), so him going only at Mach 1.41 with his speed-enhancing boost ability doesn't make much sense.
It's not contradictory, since it's not under supersonic speed.

He can be a bit over-confident, but I don't remember him ever saying that he can do something that he can't.
He can't, but if he has pushed himself beyond his limits in the past, then it comes as no surprise for him to eventually get there.

Fair enough. Another explanation could be that Sonic is simply better at using Rings for fuel than he is at using Wisps. Sonic has picked up thousands of Rings by this point, whereas in Sonic Colors, he's just met them for the first time. He manages to make do with an altered version of the boost, but it's not quite as fast as the other version.
That could be the case. It could also not be the case. We don't know. This would tell me Sonic isn't good at adapting. The color powers are described as being "REALLY powerful energy". (Emphasis in original.) We don't know if it's on the same level as the rings, but only because neither can be quantified.

The timer is based on real-world time, whereas the SPD is based on in-universe events. Either way, the speed statements override gameplay, since gameplay is not capable of accurately showing FTL speeds. If they slowed the timer down, it would just be really confusing for speed runs and such, and that's why the timer is there in the first place.
We don't know if the timer is based on real-world time, especially if it's used to record Sonic's overall rank for the level. He's clearly aware of the results since if he gets something like rank A, he'll jump excitedly and say, "Yes!"

Why would a FTL object not create a shock wave?
Because it's not sound.

Then why is light speed only 396 km/h?
I don't know.​
 

Munomario777

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You can't aim-dodge if something isn't being shot at you. Samus is traveling at light speed. She makes movements during this period. She reacts to avoid face-planting. Do I accept nanosecond reaction time? Using the wave beams as another example, I could. Am I? No. Why? There's not enough evidence, just like the 396 SPD.
Oh, so Samus was able to dodge things while she was moving at light speed? I don't see why we should ignore something just because it only happened once.
I know. That's the problem.
Why is it a problem? It still happened.
We're discussing the boost as it appears in Unleashed.
The visuals aren't always the same. See below. Also, I thought this image was interesting.



300 mi/h? And what does that read from the SPD? Apparently, this comes from a rep of Sega.
That's from an earlier build of the game. Seems to be from some sort of expo, from the article's wording. Also, again, it contradicts other statements about Sonic's speed.
It's not contradictory, since it's not under supersonic speed.
I said hypersonic.
He can't, but if he has pushed himself beyond his limits in the past, then it comes as no surprise for him to eventually get there.
Sonic has never even come close to running at light speed (ignoring the Unleashed example). He's pushed himself beyond his limits, but I doubt that he'd call something about 160,000 times his highest known speed "no challenge".
That could be the case. It could also not be the case. We don't know. This would tell me Sonic isn't good at adapting. The color powers are described as being "REALLY powerful energy". (Emphasis in original.) We don't know if it's on the same level as the rings, but only because neither can be quantified.
Right, so it shouldn't be used as evidence for either side.
We don't know if the timer is based on real-world time, especially if it's used to record Sonic's overall rank for the level. He's clearly aware of the results since if he gets something like rank A, he'll jump excitedly and say, "Yes!"
Or he's just satisfied with the run. I wouldn't be surprised if Sonic did give himself a ranking though. :p

By the way, said ranking also involves the score in points, and I somewhat doubt that that's in-universe.
Because it's not sound.
Neither is a hypersonic jet.
I don't know.
So it appears that SPD =/= km/h.​
 

TMNTSSB4

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We can't just discredit Other M as a game because of it's story; it's still a canon game, so it still counts as far as Samus goes.

And saying Samus hasn't gone through hell is a goddamn lie; Pit didn't see his mother be murdered in front of him by the leader of an army at the age of 3 years old, did he? He doesn't need to suffer the emotional baggage of being the only survivor of an genocidal attack and having to constantly see the thing that murdered his family revive itself from the dead; which is far worse than really anything Pit goes through in Uprising. Sure, he's close to Palutena, but she is in no way extremely close to him in a maternal sense. Samus had a mother and father, but both of them were killed by Ridley; her mother directly and her father killing himself to try and destroy Ridley. Hades is the god of death, but he doesn't do ANYTHING CLOSE to what Ridley has done to Samus.

If Pit went through the same hell Samus did, I'm absolutely certain he'd become a recluse.
I never said Samus didn't go though hell, Pit's was just worse. Hades may have not made him suffer, but Chaos Kin did. The whole Chaos Kin arc pretty much mad him suffer. Ridley was gonna kill her because he didn't want her to see her parents die(made no sense), but at least she knew her parents, Pit probably never met them or know he had parents. Palutena is the closest thing to him having a parent/mom/dad, so she would be maternally close to him. Samus kills people and never shows emotion to most of them, Pit kills/almost killed people, and most of the time felt bad(Chariot Master, Dark Lord Gaol). Also, I'm not saying Other M isn't canon, I just didn't count it due to her acting helpless.
 

Crystanium

Smash Hero
Joined
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Messages
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Oh, so Samus was able to dodge things while she was moving at light speed?
No. She was able to react to landing at light speed by avoiding face-planting. You only need to react at light speed in order to have nanosecond reaction time. It doesn't necessarily require dodging things. That's just one of many ways of testing reaction time.

I don't see why we should ignore something just because it only happened once.
Because it can be treated as an outlier. If Sonic is known for traveling from the speed of sound to hypersonic speed, and light speed with light speed abilities, that's all we can work with. We've never seen Sonic travel FTL, especially without any assistance.

Why is it a problem? It still happened.
Because it contradicts every other game.

We're discussing the boost as it appears in Unleashed.
Since when did we ignore all other games? It's kind of important to consider all of the games in order to be consistent. If I took every other time Sonic's boost showed up, would you ignore those, too?

That's from an earlier build of the game. Seems to be from some sort of expo, from the article's wording. Also, again, it contradicts other statements about Sonic's speed.
It's still from someone who worked on the game. I'm not sure how it contradicts other statements about Sonic.

I said hypersonic.
I know you did. Why assume Sonic is always running at hypersonic speed?

Sonic has never even come close to running at light speed (ignoring the Unleashed example). He's pushed himself beyond his limits, but I doubt that he'd call something about 160,000 times his highest known speed "no challenge".
Maybe he's already close to attaining light speed by that point. The problem is, we don't know how close it is. Assuming this is the case, we might ask 130% of what is 299,792,458 m/s? Simple math.

299,792,458 = (1.3)(x)
299,792,458 / 1.3 = x
230,609,583.0769230769230769 m/s, or 77% the speed of light.

Makes sense for the light speed dash to still be necessary to reach light speed. Not so much if light speed dash is unnecessary in the first place. Well, even not being at 77% the speed of light would still make sense for the necessity of light speed dash.

Right, so it shouldn't be used as evidence for either side.
Only because you want Sonic's speed to be FTL.

Or he's just satisfied with the run. I wouldn't be surprised if Sonic did give himself a ranking though. :p
That only happens after receiving the rank.

By the way, said ranking also involves the score in points, and I somewhat doubt that that's in-universe.
It keeps track of speed. Should that be ignored, too?

Neither is a hypersonic jet.
The jet is an object traveling through a medium at hypersonic speed, however. Mach number is a dimensionless quantity.

So it appears that SPD =/= km/h.
It would appear so, if we assume 396 SPD is light speed. It makes more sense for the SPD to record supersonic speed, since that's more consistent with Sonic's speed range. Arguing 396 SPD to be light speed and anything higher as superluminal relies on ad hoc hypotheses. It's not a reliable method. The balance of probability would not favor proponents of your position. By this point, I'm no longer addressing this topic and will treat Sonic as having light speed only with the LSD. If you find more evidence, please tell me. Until then, I'm suspending myself from further discussion on the matter.
I never said Samus didn't go though hell, Pit's was just worse. Hades may have not made him suffer, but Chaos Kin did. The whole Chaos Kin arc pretty much mad him suffer. Ridley was gonna kill her because he didn't want her to see her parents die(made no sense), but at least she knew her parents, Pit probably never met them or know he had parents. Palutena is the closest thing to him having a parent/mom/dad, so she would be maternally close to him. Samus kills people and never shows emotion to most of them, Pit kills/almost killed people, and most of the time felt bad(Chariot Master, Dark Lord Gaol). Also, I'm not saying Other M isn't canon, I just didn't count it due to her acting helpless.
Samus kills aliens, not humans
 
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Munomario777

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No. She was able to react to landing at light speed by avoiding face-planting. You only need to react at light speed in order to have nanosecond reaction time. It doesn't necessarily require dodging things. That's just one of many ways of testing reaction time.
I see.
Because it can be treated as an outlier. If Sonic is known for traveling from the speed of sound to hypersonic speed, and light speed with light speed abilities, that's all we can work with. We've never seen Sonic travel FTL, especially without any assistance.
In that case, we may as well disregard, say, Samus lifting up Vorash. That only happened once, correct?
Because it contradicts every other game.
How so?
Since when did we ignore all other games? It's kind of important to consider all of the games in order to be consistent. If I took every other time Sonic's boost showed up, would you ignore those, too?
No. I'm just saying that, since the topic at hand is Sonic's maximum speed, and said speed is demonstrated in Unleashed, using another game to disprove the speed shown in Unleashed seems rather irrelevant.
It's still from someone who worked on the game.
And the speed measurements were changed in the final game. Even ignoring those facts, the boost appears different as well. In fact, it seems like there, it's just wind, rather than an aura comprised of energy.
I'm not sure how it contradicts other statements about Sonic.
300 mph < hypersonic.
I know you did. Why assume Sonic is always running at hypersonic speed?
I'm not. However, if the boost, Sonic's fastest technique, is slower than his top speed before he even learned said technique, it seems like something is off.
Maybe he's already close to attaining light speed by that point.
He is. In fact, he surpassed it three times over.
The problem is, we don't know how close it is. Assuming this is the case, we might ask 130% of what is 299,792,458 m/s? Simple math.

299,792,458 = (1.3)(x)
299,792,458 / 1.3 = x
230,609,583.0769230769230769 m/s, or 77% the speed of light.

Makes sense for the light speed dash to still be necessary to reach light speed. Not so much if light speed dash is unnecessary in the first place. Well, even not being at 77% the speed of light would still make sense for the necessity of light speed dash.
The Light Speed Dash is necessary, but not to reach light speed. I've gone over this before. The name stems from a time before the boost existed, so at the time, it was Sonic's only way of reaching light speed, and the name stuck.
Only because you want Sonic's speed to be FTL.
More like because things that we're unsure of shouldn't be used as proof.
That only happens after receiving the rank.
He could be remembering his performance, and grading himself based on what he remembers (apparently, the whole thing). Or something else could be happening. There's no way to know for sure what's going on inside his head.
It keeps track of speed. Should that be ignored, too?
It appears to be different from the checkpoints' SLD measurement.
The jet is an object traveling through a medium at hypersonic speed, however. Mach number is a dimensionless quantity.
Similarly, Sonic is an object traveling through a medium above hypersonic speed.
It would appear so, if we assume 396 SPD is light speed. It makes more sense for the SPD to record supersonic speed, since that's more consistent with Sonic's speed range. Arguing 396 SPD to be light speed and anything higher as superluminal relies on ad hoc hypotheses. It's not a reliable method. The balance of probability would not favor proponents of your position.
Ad hoc hypothesis is a hypothesis added after the original theory is presented, is it not? I pointed out the Light Speed Dash's SPD measurement when I first presented this theory.​
 

monzer

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This is going no where, at this piont im convinced that fights between Kirby, Meta Kinght, Dedede, Shulk, Sonic, Samus, Mewtwo, and Red could really go either way. These characters are all way to evenly matched, we should start discussing done of the middle tier characters.
 

Munomario777

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This is going no where, at this piont im convinced that fights between Kirby, Meta Kinght, Dedede, Shulk, Sonic, Samus, Mewtwo, and Red could really go either way. These characters are all way to evenly matched, we should start discussing done of the middle tier characters.
Explain to me, then, how Dedede beats any of those fighters, how Shulk, Meta Knight, or Kirby beat Samus, how Meta Knight beats Red, and how all of these are somehow "evenly matched".
 

Crystanium

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In that case, we may as well disregard, say, Samus lifting up Vorash. That only happened once, correct?
She also tossed this gear into the air. It's roughly 7'5" in diameter. Now if I said Samus is able to withstand 960 g without her power suit as it was the case among few fans, then you'd be right to be skeptical of it. It required ad hoc hypotheses, such as the Chozo creating a gravity device to normalize the gravity on Zebes to prevent death of all life on the planet as well as allowing it to rain, gravity devices on other planets and ships to avoid 1 g where Samus would obliterate everyone easily, the uselessness of the gravity suit since Samus wouldn't be affected by extreme gravity, and the uselessness of the speed booster, since Samus would be able to run hypersonic speeds. So it is with Sonic's supposed FTL speed.

  • It requires the light speed dash and the like to be useless and demands an explanation where an explanation is adding an unnecessary assumption when saying Sonic can run at light speed with LSD doesn't require any assumptions.
  • It requires us to assume Sonic is able to run FTL even when we don't observe it in games after Unleashed where devs could have clarified, either by a clear statement from Omega and/or others, or by adding new features to demonstrate it.
  • It requires us to assume SPD is accurate, even though we can never see this in another game to see if using light speed dash or the like will give similar results. (I tested the Pegasus boots in A Link Between Worlds and Link cannot outrun his arrows, though he can in A Link to the Past.)
  • It requires us to ignore the timer, the environment, and the visuals, such as Sonic generating shock waves because shock waves will tell us Sonic is running supersonic.

Does it mean these are wrong? No, but when you have to bring up one after another to defend your position, it becomes very questionable, which is why science doesn't rely on these. Furthermore, Ockham's razor favors fewest assumptions and your argument relies on too many.


I already pointed out the use of light speed dash in spite of Sonic being capable of running FTL. You depending on two ad hocs, one of which I addressed, and the other I dismissed because while it seemed reasonable, it was just another explanation without any backing.

No. I'm just saying that, since the topic at hand is Sonic's maximum speed, and said speed is demonstrated in Unleashed, using another game to disprove the speed shown in Unleashed seems rather irrelevant.
Sonic's maximum speed is light speed with light speed enhancements.

And the speed measurements were changed in the final game. Even ignoring those facts, the boost appears different as well. In fact, it seems like there, it's just wind, rather than an aura comprised of energy.
Which would mean they intended for that supposed aura to be a shock wave. Like I said, they differ in color in Sonic Colors.

300 mph < hypersonic.

I'm not. However, if the boost, Sonic's fastest technique, is slower than his top speed before he even learned said technique, it seems like something is off.
When Sonic uses sonic boost, does he generate a shock wave like one below?



He is. In fact, he surpassed it three times over.
Uh huh.

The Light Speed Dash is necessary, but not to reach light speed. I've gone over this before. The name stems from a time before the boost existed, so at the time, it was Sonic's only way of reaching light speed, and the name stuck.
But that's another ad hoc hypothesis. All you've done is assert, not prove.

More like because things that we're unsure of shouldn't be used as proof.
Like the 396 SPD?

He could be remembering his performance, and grading himself based on what he remembers (apparently, the whole thing). Or something else could be happening. There's no way to know for sure what's going on inside his head.
He could, he could not. You'll need to do better than that. It's no fun relying on arguments from ignorance, as it works both ways.

It appears to be different from the checkpoints' SLD measurement.
What's SLD?

Similarly, Sonic is an object traveling through a medium above hypersonic speed.
But not always.

Ad hoc hypothesis is a hypothesis added after the original theory is presented, is it not? I pointed out the Light Speed Dash's SPD measurement when I first presented this theory.
It is, and it serves as a means to avoid being disproved. It could be true or not, but only if it can be supported by evidence. Otherwise, it's to be treated as dubious.
This is going no where, at this piont im convinced that fights between Kirby, Meta Kinght, Dedede, Shulk, Sonic, Samus, Mewtwo, and Red could really go either way. These characters are all way to evenly matched, we should start discussing done of the middle tier characters.
That list should look like so. And I'll do this first part for Munomario777.

:4sonic::4samus:
:4shulk::4mewtwo:
:pt:
:4kirby:
:4metaknight:
:4dedede:
 
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Reckless Godwin 2.0

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Let's not extrapolate. What is the most powerful attack that these work on? By the way, I noticed that the requirement for activating Counter is taking a non-lethal attack from an adjacent enemy. Does Miracle make lethal attacks fit this description? Also, given Sonic's speed, he'd be far from adjacent to Robin by the time he counter attacked. Finally, here's the biggest hole in this plan; Miracle only has a small chance of working. In fact, it is dependent on the luck stat, which is described as how much the gods of that world shine down on one. Since there's no outside help here, would Miracle etc not be disallowed?
I told you already, Lethality and critical hits (due to being 3 times more destructive than normal).
Of course.
Doesn’t matter.
58% chance of activating is not a small chance by any stretch of the imagination.
What games have ever described the Luck stat like that? There is no solid evidence of deities in most games (FE1, 3-7, 11, 12, 13), they are unable to help you (FE2, 9, most of 10), or they are against you (FE 2, 10). The only exception is in FE8 and that's only because of the 5 stones and L'Arachel's supernatural luck http://serenesforest.net/the-sacred-stones/scripts/supports/larachel-joshua/.
How does Luck prevent weapon degeneration with Armsthrift then? You do realize that Priests and Monks typically have terrible Luck bases and growths compared to the lords right? Examples:
Lucius: 2+20% at Lv 3
Moulder: 1+20% at Lv 3
Artur: 2+25% at Lv 2
Roy: 7+60% at Lv 1
Ike (FE10): 14+30% at Lv ??/11
I’ll never understand why male clergy are so terrible with their Luck stat unlike their female counterparts.
If you are going to take away a significant stat like that then I will take your emeralds!

In terms of psychic strength, that would either go to Palutena or Mewtwo's Mega Y form.

On the subject of Pokemon, though; I've wondered who the strongest Pokemon would be with maximum stats at Level 100, fully EV and IV trained with beneficial natures. Here's the stats I get for all the playable Pokemon in the Smash series;
  • Pichu (Electric) - 244 HP, 196 Attack, 141 Defense, 185 Special Attack, 185 Special Defense, 240 Speed.
  • Pikachu (Electric) - 274 HP, 229 Attack, 196 Defense, 218 Special Attack, 218 Special Defense, 306 Speed.
  • Jigglypuff (Normal/Fairy) - 434 HP, 207 Attack, 152 Defense, 207 Special Attack, 163 Special Defense, 152 Speed.
  • Squirtle (Water) - 292 HP, 214 Attack, 251 Defense, 218 Special Attack, 249 Special Defense, 203 Speed.
  • Ivysaur (Grass/Poison) - 324 HP, 245 Attack, 247 Defense, 284 Special Attack, 284 Special Defense, 240 Speed.
  • Lucario (Fighting/Steel) - 344 HP, 350 Attack, 262 Defense, 361 Special Attack, 262 Special Defense, 306 Speed.
  • Mega Lucario (Fighting/Steel) - 344 HP, 427 Attack, 302 Defense, 416 Special Attack, 262 Special Defense, 355 Speed.
  • Charizard (Fire/Flying) - 360 HP, 293 Attack, 280 Defense, 348 Special Attack, 295 Special Defense, 328 Speed.
  • Mega Charizard X (Fire/Dragon) - 360 HP, 394 Attack, 353 Defense, 394 Special Attack, 295 Special Defense, 328 Speed.
  • Greninja (Water/Dark) - 348 HP, 317 Attack, 256 Defense, 335 Special Attack, 265 Special Defense, 377 Speed.
  • Mewtwo (Psychic) - 416 HP, 350 Attack, 306 Defense, 447 Special Attack, 306 Special Defense, 394 Speed.
  • Mega Mewtwo Y (Psychic) - 416 HP, 438 Attack, 262 Defense, 535 Special Attack, 372 Special Defense, 416 Speed.
In terms of type matchups...
- Mewtwo is resistant to Lucario's primary type (Fighting) and damaged normally by his secondary type (Steel). He's damaged normally by pretty much all the other Pokemon types, too, except for Greninja's secondary typing (Dark).
- Charizard is weak to Squirtle and Pikachu's attacks, due to his Fire/Flying typing. Mega Charizard removes both issues with the added Dragon typing, which causes Water to inflict normal damage and Electric to become not very effective. Mega Charizard also resists Grass-type attacks, meaning Ivysaur is even more disadvantaged in that matchup than before; Mega Charizard also resists steel while dealing super-effective damage, meaning Lucario is pretty vulnerable to Mega Charizard. The added Dragon-typing also makes Jigglypuff super-effective, though; and Greninja remains a threat due to the Water-typing.
- Pikachu and Pichu, like Mega Charizard, resist Lucario's secondary typing and are only neutrally damaged by his primary type. In fact, no Pokemon in Smash has ever been Pikachu's, Pichu's and Charizard's weakness; Ground.
- Jigglypuff's Fairy-typing means she's weak to Lucario and Ivysaur (who have the Steel and Poison typings). She does super-effective damage against Mega Charizard X and is completely unaffected by Dragon Rush. She's damaged normally against all other represented types.
- Greninja is outright immune to Mewtwo's STAB-boosted attacks (Psychic), and resists Fire-type moves. He's also hit super-effectively by Pikachu, Jigglypuff , Ivysaur and Lucario, so really he's not as insane as the Psychic immunity makes him seem.

In terms of actual stats, Mewtwo decimates everyone else with his Mega form (which is to this date the strongest Pokemon ever). In typings, Pikachu has the advantage since no Pokemon in the roster is Ground-type, but Charizard's Mega reigns supreme because of his resistances (even if Jigglypuff is a danger with the Fairy-typing).
@ Dastardly Ridleylash Dastardly Ridleylash Check Page 142, Post 5641.

B) Sonic will always make the first move.

You don't seem to understand the concepts at work here. If a city was condensed into a small enough space, Sonic could likely take it out in one or maybe two hits. However, since it's so big, and Sonic can only be in one place at once, he has to traverse that entire city, which even at light speed, is slower than the alternative (although not by much). Since Kirby is such a small target, Sonic can hit all of him at once, so he can take him out very quickly. It's not the durability that would give him "trouble", it's the area the city takes up.

B) Meanwhile, Kirby is vulnerable from being in his water form and having to switch Copy Abilities, so Bowser strikes.

Sleep Kirby is vulnerable to attacks. He's defenseless. Baton Kirby wouldn't be able to get through due to Bowser's hands etc getting in the way, and if he did, it takes a while to explode a Baton victim. Ultra Sword hasn't been shown to chop through something as tough as Bowser.

Thus, burning logs are closer to flamethrowers.

A) Yes, while racing towards Kirby. The transformation takes only a fraction of a second.
B) The boost travels at extremely high speeds. The exact speeds are unknown (it's being debated currently whether or not it's FTL), but we know that Sonic can run at hypersonic speeds without the boost. Hypersonic is, at minimum, Mach 5.5, or around 4186.63 mph. And Sonic can reach these speeds instantly. Has Kirby been shown to react to that?


And thus it's easier for the bullet to penetrate the plants. A smaller point of impact makes it easier to penetrate something; that's why a sharp knife cuts more easily than a dull one.

If this society has spaceships, then I'd imagine they also have access to missiles. They're an advanced society.

Why can't a body be feral?

How durable is it?

How fast is it?

How fast?

How much force can it "seal"?

Sol can't heal after the user has already been killed, can it? What does Patience do?
Even Sonic needs to go through acceleration first and he is going up against the speed of thought.

When was the last time Sonic destroyed a city? Simple walls stop him even when he is going full force.

Shouldn’t Bowser be drowning at this point in time?

Baton Kirby doesn’t need to make Bowser explode, he can just spin him like a top or just smack him against the ground repeatedly, face first.

Ha! Do you know how silly you sound comparing burning logs to flamethrowers which are proper weapons!

I’m unimpressed.

Don’t plants have rigid cell walls?

Having space travel doesn't guarantee any type of weapons technology.

Feral refers to a type of behavior.

As durable as Mechon armor is, because that is what it is made from.

Fast enough.

Fast enough and Ness’s teleport quickly ramps up the speed https://youtu.be/AaxENaWI65U.

Mario isn’t a dragon.

A giant plumber, Ike is so scared. Giant Mario is slower than a horse riding Knight and Ike has no problems with them what so ever.
Where do you get the idea that Giant Mario is a OHKO on competent adversaries when it has only been demonstrated on Goombas, Koopas and Hammer Bros..

Characters are getting their tools here, so using tools isn't really an issue. Still, just "defeating a god" isn't anything special. Kid Icarus gods are far from all-powerful.
They would stomp most of the upper tier and below characters into the ground though!

We can't just discredit Other M as a game because of it's story; it's still a canon game, so it still counts as far as Samus goes.

And saying Samus hasn't gone through hell is a goddamn lie; Pit didn't see his mother be murdered in front of him by the leader of an army at the age of 3 years old, did he? He doesn't need to suffer the emotional baggage of being the only survivor of an genocidal attack and having to constantly see the thing that murdered his family revive itself from the dead; which is far worse than really anything Pit goes through in Uprising. Sure, he's close to Palutena, but she is in no way extremely close to him in a maternal sense. Samus had a mother and father, but both of them were killed by Ridley; her mother directly and her father killing himself to try and destroy Ridley. Hades is the god of death, but he doesn't do ANYTHING CLOSE to what Ridley has done to Samus.

If Pit went through the same hell Samus did, I'm absolutely certain he'd become a recluse.
Hades does some disturbing things to human souls though.

I'm not seeing anything here, except Enemy's death resulting in the destruction of a large portion of the Moon, which I wouldn't even say is our moon.
Isn’t that moon supposed to be Mr. Shine?

Why would a FTL object not create a shock wave?
Then why is light speed only 396 km/h?
Because it would cause a nuclear blast instead?

Because it isn't the speed of light. If it was the speed of light, problems like gravity would cease to be a concern.

He could be remembering his performance, and grading himself based on what he remembers (apparently, the whole thing). Or something else could be happening. There's no way to know for sure what's going on inside his head.
Judging oneself is pretty irresponsible to do. There is a reason why you let third parties do the judging (except in Nintendo’s case (I’m clearly biased)).

@ monzer monzer This is going no where, at this point I'm convinced that fights between Kirby, Meta Knight, Dedede, Shulk, Sonic, Samus, Mewtwo, and Red could really go either way. These characters are all way to evenly matched, we should start discussing done of the middle tier characters.
Red and King Dedede have no business in that group and even Meta Knight is pushing it without a fully crewed Halberd. The rest benefit from a combination of really high stats in multiple areas, great equipment and potent out of context abilities. Ness might be in this group too.

You should use the Spell Checker a bit more often buddy.

She also tossed this gear into the air. It's roughly 7'5" in diameter. Now if I said Samus is able to withstand 960 g without her power suit as it was the case among few fans, then you'd be right to be skeptical of it. It required ad hoc hypotheses, such as the Chozo creating a gravity device to normalize the gravity on Zebes to prevent death of all life on the planet as well as allowing it to rain, the uselessness of the gravity suit since Samus wouldn't be affected by extreme gravity, and the uselessness of the speed booster, since Samus would be able to run hypersonic speeds. So it is with Sonic's supposed FTL speed.

  • It requires the light speed dash and the like to be useless and demands an explanation where an explanation is adding an unnecessary assumption when saying Sonic can run at light speed with LSD doesn't require any assumptions.
  • It requires us to assume Sonic is able to run FTL even when we don't observe it in games after Unleashed where devs could have clarified, either by a clear statement from Omega and/or others, or by adding new features to demonstrate it.
  • It requires us to assume SPD is accurate, even though we can never see this in another game to see if using light speed dash or the like will give similar results. (I tested the Pegasus boots in A Link Between Worlds and Link cannot outrun his arrows, though he can in A Link to the Past.)
  • It requires us to ignore the timer, the environment, and the visuals, such as Sonic generating shock waves because shock waves will tell us Sonic is running supersonic.

This is more ad hoc hypotheses than required for Zebes' gravity. Does it mean these are wrong? No, but when you have to bring up one after another to defend your position, it becomes very questionable, which is why science doesn't rely on these. Furthermore, Ockham's razor favors fewest assumptions and your argument relies on too many.
You forgot to mention how no one in universe acknowledges those worlds as having much higher gravity.

Great Job bringing up Ockham’s Razor. Keep it up!



Does Bowser Jr. get Megahammer and the Boomsday Machine from Galaxy 2?

Does Bowser get his meteor summons from Galaxy 2?

@ Munomario777 Munomario777 When did you change your Smash Wii U main?
 

Munomario777

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Really? It doesn't seem that large to me. Even so, would a gear have the same weight as a giant lava whale?
Now if I said Samus is able to withstand 960 g without her power suit as it was the case among few fans, then you'd be right to be skeptical of it. It required ad hoc hypotheses, such as the Chozo creating a gravity device to normalize the gravity on Zebes to prevent death of all life on the planet as well as allowing it to rain, gravity devices on other planets and ships to avoid 1 g where Samus would obliterate everyone easily, the uselessness of the gravity suit since Samus wouldn't be affected by extreme gravity, and the uselessness of the speed booster, since Samus would be able to run hypersonic speeds. So it is with Sonic's supposed FTL speed.

  • It requires the light speed dash and the like to be useless and demands an explanation where an explanation is adding an unnecessary assumption when saying Sonic can run at light speed with LSD doesn't require any assumptions.
  • It requires us to assume Sonic is able to run FTL even when we don't observe it in games after Unleashed where devs could have clarified, either by a clear statement from Omega and/or others, or by adding new features to demonstrate it.
  • It requires us to assume SPD is accurate, even though we can never see this in another game to see if using light speed dash or the like will give similar results. (I tested the Pegasus boots in A Link Between Worlds and Link cannot outrun his arrows, though he can in A Link to the Past.)
  • It requires us to ignore the timer, the environment, and the visuals, such as Sonic generating shock waves because shock waves will tell us Sonic is running supersonic.
  • It's not useless. The description says it all; they allow Sonic to dash along a trail of Rings. The boost lacks this ability.
  • There is a statement from Sonic, actually. He says that exceeding light speed is "no challenge". If he hadn't done this before, he'd be more likely to say, for instance, that exceeding light speed would be no challenge.
  • If it's the game telling us something, we should treat it as accurate unless proven inaccurate, at least IMO.
  • The timer and the environment have been shown to incorrectly portray FTL speeds before; just look at the Light Speed Dash. I don't see how Sonic creating a shockwave means that he's not travelling at FTL speeds.
Does it mean these are wrong? No, but when you have to bring up one after another to defend your position, it becomes very questionable, which is why science doesn't rely on these. Furthermore, Ockham's razor favors fewest assumptions and your argument relies on too many.
Understood.
I already pointed out the use of light speed dash in spite of Sonic being capable of running FTL. You depending on two ad hocs, one of which I addressed, and the other I dismissed because while it seemed reasonable, it was just another explanation without any backing.
I'll ask again. How does Sonic running FTL contradict every other game?
Which would mean they intended for that supposed aura to be a shock wave.
And they changed it in the final game.
Like I said, they differ in color in Sonic Colors.
And they also have different fuel sources in that game.
When Sonic uses sonic boost, does he generate a shock wave like one below?

Yes, but I don't see how this is relevant to this particular quote block.
But that's another ad hoc hypothesis. All you've done is assert, not prove.
The usefulness of the Light Speed Dash is proven by its better cornering (opposed to the boost), ability to defy gravity, and ability to automatically home into opponents via the Light Speed Attack.
Like the 396 SPD?
It's the common consensus within the community, if I'm not mistaken. I'll take their word for it, but if you find evidence to the contrary, I'll change my stance.
He could, he could not. You'll need to do better than that. It's no fun relying on arguments from ignorance, as it works both ways.
Similarly, he could or could not be aware of the results screen and its ranking.
What's SLD?
Whoops, meant to type SPD.
But not always.
A jet isn't always travelling at super/hypersonic speeds either. Point?
It is, and it serves as a means to avoid being disproved. It could be true or not, but only if it can be supported by evidence. Otherwise, it's to be treated as dubious.
Well, as I said, the Light Speed Dash's SPD measurement was pointed out from the beginning.

Anyway, I feel this almost isn't worth arguing anymore. Hypersonic speeds should be enough to destroy most targets, and if not, then the Light Speed Attack oughta do the trick.​
That list should look like so. And I'll do this first part for Munomario777.

:4sonic::4samus:
:4shulk::4mewtwo:
:pt:
:4kirby:
:4metaknight:
:4dedede:
That seems fairly accurate.
I told you already, Lethality and critical hits (due to being 3 times more destructive than normal).
And how powerful are they?
Doesn’t matter.
Why not? It only works on adjacent enemies. What weapon does Robin use to counter attack?
58% chance of activating is not a small chance by any stretch of the imagination.
True.
What games have ever described the Luck stat like that?
According to the Fire Emblem Wiki, "Luck (運) is a stat whose tooltip often describes it as a measurement of the divine favor a character has, or some variant thereof."
There is no solid evidence of deities in most games (FE1, 3-7, 11, 12, 13), they are unable to help you (FE2, 9, most of 10), or they are against you (FE 2, 10). The only exception is in FE8 and that's only because of the 5 stones and L'Arachel's supernatural luck http://serenesforest.net/the-sacred-stones/scripts/supports/larachel-joshua/.
How does Luck prevent weapon degeneration with Armsthrift then? You do realize that Priests and Monks typically have terrible Luck bases and growths compared to the lords right? Examples:
Lucius: 2+20% at Lv 3
Moulder: 1+20% at Lv 3
Artur: 2+25% at Lv 2
Roy: 7+60% at Lv 1
Ike (FE10): 14+30% at Lv ??/11
I’ll never understand why male clergy are so terrible with their Luck stat unlike their female counterparts.
Hey, I'm just pointing out what I found on the wiki. :p
If you are going to take away a significant stat like that then I will take your emeralds!
The Chaos Emeralds don't require a deity to shine down on Sonic in order for him to use them.
Even Sonic needs to go through acceleration first and he is going up against the speed of thought.
The boost gets him up to top speed instantly.
When was the last time Sonic destroyed a city? Simple walls stop him even when he is going full force.
He hasn't, because of the game mechanic of non-destructible environments.
Shouldn’t Bowser be drowning at this point in time?
Not unless drinking the equivalent of a glass of water drowns him. Seriously, Kirby is eight inches tall.
Baton Kirby doesn’t need to make Bowser explode, he can just spin him like a top or just smack him against the ground repeatedly, face first.
Baton Kirby has only been shown to manipulate objects his own size. Which reminds me, Sonic shouldn't be affected either in the first place.
Ha! Do you know how silly you sound comparing burning logs to flamethrowers which are proper weapons!
Fire is fire.
I’m unimpressed.
By Sonic travelling at light speed?
Don’t plants have rigid cell walls?
Not rigid enough to stop a bullet, if I'm not mistaken.
Having space travel doesn't guarantee any type of weapons technology.
It implies an advanced society.
Feral refers to a type of behavior.
Then why does the entry I linked to mention "feral teeth"?
As durable as Mechon armor is, because that is what it is made from.
And how durable is that?
Fast enough.
How fast?
Fast enough and Ness’s teleport quickly ramps up the speed https://youtu.be/AaxENaWI65U.
How fast?
Mario isn’t a dragon.
You didn't answer my question. How does Falchion "seal" attacks, and what is the most powerful attack that it can negate?
A giant plumber, Ike is so scared. Giant Mario is slower than a horse riding Knight and Ike has no problems with them what so ever.
How fast is he?
Where do you get the idea that Giant Mario is a OHKO on competent adversaries when it has only been demonstrated on Goombas, Koopas and Hammer Bros..
It can destroy pipes and large brick blocks as well.
Because it would cause a nuclear blast instead?
Not in the sonicverse.
Because it isn't the speed of light. If it was the speed of light, problems like gravity would cease to be a concern.
Actually, the Light Speed Dash does ignore gravity.
Judging oneself is pretty irresponsible to do. There is a reason why you let third parties do the judging (except in Nintendo’s case (I’m clearly biased)).
I don't see why Sonic can't be pleased or displeased with his own runs.
Does Bowser Jr. get Megahammer and the Boomsday Machine from Galaxy 2?
If other fighters get their vehicles, then I don't see why not.
Does Bowser get his meteor summons from Galaxy 2?
We don't know where they come from, so I'd say no.
@ Munomario777 Munomario777 When did you change your Smash Wii U main?
I dunno. :confused:
 

Crystanium

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Really? It doesn't seem that large to me. Even so, would a gear have the same weight as a giant lava whale?
It doesn't have the same mass, but that'd explain why Samus only uses the flick of her wrist with one arm, rather than both, as in the case against Vorash.

It's not useless. The description says it all; they allow Sonic to dash along a trail of Rings. The boost lacks this ability.
Because the light speed boots are made of the same material as the rings, according to one of the games. Makes sense for it to function that way, then. Not only is Sonic's ability to run at light speed with these boots is supported by lore, but being made of the same material as the rings also is supported by lore. You'll need to present another argument if you wish to keep supporting this. I'd appreciate it if you had a description from the series to support it as well. After all, going on a trail of rings isn't really necessary when Sonic can run fast enough to launch himself off the ground and cover distances, as with his ability, Mach boost.

There is a statement from Sonic, actually. He says that exceeding light speed is "no challenge". If he hadn't done this before, he'd be more likely to say, for instance, that exceeding light speed would be no challenge.
Again, hubris. Also, it's interesting to note from another fellow I've debated with before has told me that Sonic can run at the speed of lightning. It's called "bolt of lightning". Tikal says, "When you reach maximum speed, you'll turn into a bolt of lightning." How awesome is that? Of course, that requires Sonic to be in his super form. Still, let's say he can do this outside of that form. With the 130% increase, that's 80.89 miles per second. It's not near light speed, but it's closer by comparison to Mach 5.

If it's the game telling us something, we should treat it as accurate unless proven inaccurate, at least IMO.
I agree, which is why nothing has come up to prove what you've been claiming.

The timer and the environment have been shown to incorrectly portray FTL speeds before; just look at the Light Speed Dash. I don't see how Sonic creating a shockwave means that he's not travelling at FTL speeds.
Because going faster than the speed of sound generates shock waves.

I'll ask again. How does Sonic running FTL contradict every other game?
We never see it in any other game. No one ever speaks of it in any other game.

Yes, but I don't see how this is relevant to this particular quote block.
It's relevant because if the sonic boost generates a shock wave, then I will dismiss the 300 mi/h in favor of 921.6 mi/h (low-end supersonic). Because that's what scientists do.

The usefulness of the Light Speed Dash is proven by its better cornering (opposed to the boost), ability to defy gravity, and ability to automatically home into opponents via the Light Speed Attack.
Light speed dash having better cornering doesn't mean anything. Walking gives you better cornering. Defying gravity isn't actually occurring, since Sonic is traveling on rings. Sonic can already home in on targets. LSA just allows Sonic to perform it quicker, well if we ignore the 2 second charge.

It's the common consensus within the community, if I'm not mistaken. I'll take their word for it, but if you find evidence to the contrary, I'll change my stance.
It's a common consensus among fans. Fans tend to skew things. See Zebes' 960 g for details. I don't have to prove otherwise because I'm not claiming anything. I'm not making ad hoc hypotheses.

Similarly, he could or could not be aware of the results screen and its ranking.
Could or could not, but it looks to me like he's breaking the fourth wall by being aware of the score. Or maybe it's off the screen and he's observing it from there like a meteorologist uses a green screen to present the audience the weather while using monitors that's out of the camera range.

Whoops, meant to type SPD.
So shouldn't the differences be telling us something about the check point's SPD being faulty?

A jet isn't always travelling at super/hypersonic speeds either. Point?
I forgot where you were going with the jet.

Well, as I said, the Light Speed Dash's SPD measurement was pointed out from the beginning.
And?

Anyway, I feel this almost isn't worth arguing anymore. Hypersonic speeds should be enough to destroy most targets, and if not, then the Light Speed Attack oughta do the trick.
All right.​
 
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Crystanium

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@Dryn

So, agree to disagree then?
That's perfectly fine. In spite of it this, Sonic will still be on top.

Also, have you seen the recent Game Theory? I can see the strong connection from one game to the next. I wondered why they didn't bring up Paper Mario. I thought MatPat was going to say that was an alternate universe, but he didn't mention it. Using the timeline he and the two others worked with, Paper Mario lacks the Koopalings and Bowser Jr., meaning it probably takes place before Super Mario Bros. 3.
 

Munomario777

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That's perfectly fine. In spite of it this, Sonic will still be on top.
Agreed. Three times light speed does seem a bit overkill. :p
Also, have you seen the recent Game Theory? I can see the strong connection from one game to the next. I wondered why they didn't bring up Paper Mario. I thought MatPat was going to say that was an alternate universe, but he didn't mention it. Using the timeline he and the two others worked with, Paper Mario lacks the Koopalings and Bowser Jr., meaning it probably takes place before Super Mario Bros. 3.
I have! I really enjoyed watching it, and I did like the crossover with... well, Crossover. :p I think why he didn't mention Paper Mario is because it seems to simply be some sort of storybook in the Marioverse. In Japan it's called "Mario Story", and in Luigi's Mansion, we even see a ghost reading a book called "Mario Story". Now, whether this book fictional or nonfictional (within the Marioverse, of course) would be interesting to find out. I'm leaning towards fictional since it's called a "story" in the original Japanese version.

By the way, to those who haven't seen the episode in question, I definitely recommend giving it a watch! :)
 

monzer

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Agreed. Three times light speed does seem a bit overkill. :p

I have! I really enjoyed watching it, and I did like the crossover with... well, Crossover. :p I think why he didn't mention Paper Mario is because it seems to simply be some sort of storybook in the Marioverse. In Japan it's called "Mario Story", and in Luigi's Mansion, we even see a ghost reading a book called "Mario Story". Now, whether this book fictional or nonfictional (within the Marioverse, of course) would be interesting to find out. I'm leaning towards fictional since it's called a "story" in the original Japanese version.

By the way, to those who haven't seen the episode in question, I definitely recommend giving it a watch! :)
If paper Mario is canon then the Mario characters would be much higher because super dimentio was as strong as some of the Kirby or metriod villains. I also agree that we should agree to dissagree with who wins among the top tier characters.

@Dryn In the games, is zero suit Samus less durable than normal?
 
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Crystanium

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Agreed. Three times light speed does seem a bit overkill. :p

I have! I really enjoyed watching it, and I did like the crossover with... well, Crossover. :p I think why he didn't mention Paper Mario is because it seems to simply be some sort of storybook in the Marioverse. In Japan it's called "Mario Story", and in Luigi's Mansion, we even see a ghost reading a book called "Mario Story". Now, whether this book fictional or nonfictional (within the Marioverse, of course) would be interesting to find out. I'm leaning towards fictional since it's called a "story" in the original Japanese version.

By the way, to those who haven't seen the episode in question, I definitely recommend giving it a watch! :)
That's interesting, but reading up on this, I found Herringway, the penguin in Paper Mario, wrote the book, "Paper Mario". So it's possible that Neville is reading Herringway's book and maybe we're playing through the story like how someone in fiction would tell the audience their story and we'd get to watch.

I'm not too worried about Super Dimentio, however, and what Mario did to defeat him. A few think Super Dimentio is a multi-universal threat that Mario was able to stop.
 

Munomario777

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That's interesting, but reading up on this, I found Herringway, the penguin in Paper Mario, wrote the book, "Paper Mario". So it's possible that Neville is reading Herringway's book and maybe we're playing through the story like how someone in fiction would tell the audience their story and we'd get to watch.
Interesting. Is it the same book that we see being read in Luigi's Mansion? The one in LM is called "Mario Story", of course, but this seems to be a translation error.
I'm not too worried about Super Dimentio, however, and what Mario did to defeat him. A few think Super Dimentio is a multi-universal threat that Mario was able to stop.
Well, that and the fact that Super Dimentio is, quote, "a freakish blend of Dimentio, the Chaos Heart, and Luigi," whereas we're only discussing solo Luigi.
 

Crystanium

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Interesting. Is it the same book that we see being read in Luigi's Mansion? The one in LM is called "Mario Story", of course, but this seems to be a translation error.
I'm not sure. I'm just using Mario Wiki right now. I have Paper Mario, but I'm too lazy to check.

Well, that and the fact that Super Dimentio is, quote, "a freakish blend of Dimentio, the Chaos Heart, and Luigi," whereas we're only discussing solo Luigi.
I think the point was mostly that Mario defeated Super Dimentio, a multi-universal threat, therefore, Mario is a multi-universal threat. They said that about Ness, but yeah . . . Not true.
 

Munomario777

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I think the point was mostly that Mario defeated Super Dimentio, a multi-universal threat, therefore, Mario is a multi-universal threat. They said that about Ness, but yeah . . . Not true.
Ah, I see. I don't quite remember that fight, but the wiki says that "the power of love" defeated it. I'm assuming that that means the Pure Hearts. So yeah, this doesn't say much about Mario.
 
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