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Who's Canonically the Strongest Character in Smash?

Munomario777

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Votes that did not present arguments in favor of this.
And which were accepted because of the majority opinion.
That's your choice, but I think it needs to be discussed among everyone.

I used lore and logic. I'll present it again for you and for others to see in case anyone else missed. @ Reckless Godwin 2.0 Reckless Godwin 2.0 @ Nerdicon Nerdicon @ ShadowLBlue ShadowLBlue @ Kirby Dragons Kirby Dragons

Please give me your opinion on the matter, everyone!

  • P1: The nova beam is defined as "a high-frequency beam". [1]
  • P2: The nova beam is used in conjunction with the x-ray visor. [2]
  • P3: X-rays are high-frequency electromagnetic rays. [3]
  • C: Therefore, it is highly probable that the nova beam fires x-rays. (From P2 and P3.)

  • P1: The nova beam shares the same design as the light beam and wave beam. [4][5][6]
  • P2: The light beam fires light. [7]
  • P3: Visible light is part of the electromagnetic spectrum. [3]
  • P4: All electromagnetic radiation travels at the speed of light. [8]
  • C: Therefore, the light beam travels the speed of light. (From P2, P3, and P4.)

  • P1: The wave beam shares the same design as the light beam and nova beam. [4][5][6]
  • P2: The wave beam fires "wave energy". [9] (This phrase is redundant as all waves transfer energy.)
  • P3: Mechanical waves requires a medium and cannot travel in a vacuum.
  • P4: Electromagnetic waves can travel in a vacuum.
  • P5: The wave beam is an electromagnetic wave. (From P2 and P4.)
  • P6: Electromagnetic waves travel at the speed of light. [8]
  • C: The wave beam travels the speed of light. (From P5 and P6.)

  • P1: The wave, light, and nova beam pass through solid objects. [10][11][2]
  • P2: Super Zebesians fire beams capable of passing through solid objects.
  • P3: The wave, light, and nova beams are the only known technologies capable of passing through solid objects.
  • P4: Space pirates are known for reverse-engineering Samus' technology.
  • C: Therefore, it is highly probable that the super Zebesians are using one of these technologies, which are capable of traveling light speed.

1. "The Nova Beam is a high-frequency Beam that can shoot through certain objects." - Metroid Prime 3: Corruption, Inventory, Nova Beam
2. "The Nova Beam can shoot through objects made of Phazite and hit weak points or hidden targets. Many of these can be found by using the X-Ray Visor." - Metroid Prime 3: Corruption, Inventory, Nova Beam
3. Electromagnetic spectrum
4. Nova Beam
5. Light Beam
6. Wave Beam
7. "Find this weapon, so its great light may blind and burn our foes once more." - I-Sha
8. Speed of Light
9. Metroid: Zero Mission manual, p. 25
10. Super Metroid manual, p. 23
11. "The Light Beam can shoot through multiple enemies." - Metroid Prime 2: Echoes, Inventory, Light Beam
Now that this is a whole vote and all, I'd just like to remind everyone of the "objects move at the speeds shown" rule.
When something travels very fast, it can cover a distance greater than an object traveling slower, giving it the impression that it's not affected by gravity. Light would give us this impression, but if we saw light firing perpendicular to a black hole, but at the event horizon, we'd see it easily bend because the black hole's gravity is far greater.
The Light Speed Dash can travel straight up. Is this possible with the effects that you mentioned?
It's tied to the diagonal speed boost.
As I said before, the 1200 SPD measurement comes from a clip where Sonic is simply boosting in a straight line.
I'm sorry?
The Light Speed Dash is capable of following Ring trails with tight turns in them, and the Light Speed Attack can change direction on the spot when hitting consecutive chains of enemies. The Sonic Boost, which is faster than those two techniques, has poor turning capabilities, so it makes sense that Sonic would sacrifice speed in favor of handling in those situations.
If you're very broad with the word, but NASA defines it as greater than Mach 5. I presume they're defining "supersonic" at Mach 5, rather than Mach 4.9. High hypersonic is approximately Mach 25. That means you cannot define "hypersonic" as "Above Mach 5.5" or including light speed. At best, you could define "luminal speed" to mean 299,792,458 m/s and anything above that as "superluminal".
Fair enough. This is still from Sonic Adventure, long before Sonic was recorded going at FTL speeds.
 

Reckless Godwin 2.0

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Mar 23, 2015
Messages
89
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Philadelphia, PA
That could be Marth in different time periods. He was first a prince, but he was promoted to a king in different time periods.

A mechanical arm gun.

In terms of stats and abilities, but not items.
Both Marths are on the same map at the same time. I don’t know what else to tell you (I wish ShadowLBlue was here).

I didn’t realize they had flamethrowers, missiles, reflectors and energy shields. Is there anything I should know about the Brawler and Swordfighter?

A Mario without power ups and equipment? Dr. Mario has no business being in the upper tiers.

Lore overrides gameplay when it comes to the speeds of objects
Gameplay and Cutscene >>> Lore (Lore can have mistakes).

Unless Sonic KOs Marth quickly enough.

Blue Tornado isn't negated by things like shields, so I don't see why the Falchion would block it. Putting a sword in a sheath doesn't prevent it from being stolen by someone who can freeze time.
How are any of his ranged attacks going to KO Marth (they look a lot weaker than his melee attacks)?

Blue Tornado gets negated by the Darksphere.



If you want to know more about a particular character than ask the associated person:

:4mario::

:4drmario::

:4luigi::

:4peach::

:4bowser::

:4bowserjr:: Kirby Dragons

:rosalina::

:4yoshi::

:4wario2::

:4dk:: Dryn

:4diddy:: Dryn

:4link::

:younglinkmelee::

:4tlink::

:4zelda:: Kirby Dragons

:4sheik::

:4ganondorf::

:4samus:: Dryn

:4zss:: Dryn

:4pit:: Dryn

:4darkpit:: Dryn

:4palutena:: Dryn/Kirby Dragons

:4marth:: Kirby Dragons

:roypm::

:4myfriends:: Reckless Godwin 2.0

:4robinm:/:4robinf::

:4lucina::

:4kirby:: Kirby Dragons

:4dedede:: Kirby Dragons

:4metaknight:: Kirby Dragons

:4fox::

:4falco::

:wolf::

:pt::

:4pikachu::

:pichumelee::

:4charizard::

:4lucario::

:4jigglypuff::

:4mewtwo:: Kirby Dragons

:4greninja::

:4ness:: Kirby Dragons

:4lucas::

:4falcon::

:4villager:/:4villagerf::

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:4littlemac::

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:4shulk:: Reckless Godwin 2.0

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:4miigun:: Kirby Dragons

Copy and paste if you update this list. I would also appreciate feedback on this.



@ Kirby Dragons Kirby Dragons @ Munomario777 Munomario777 This clip should end that discussion about that knife in Pikmin 2 https://youtu.be/paCimchP3Io?t=800 at 13:20-13:58.

@Dryn Are you going by 4.8 trillion teratons Zebes calcs (official/possibly flubbed/****ed/unrealistic) or 4.8 billion teratons Zebes calcs (close to Earth standards/realistic with real physics)?
 
Last edited:

Munomario777

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Gameplay and Cutscene >>> Lore (Lore can have mistakes).
Gameplay often misrepresents high speeds due to hardware limitations of gameplay reasons.
How are any of his ranged attacks going to KO Marth (they look a lot weaker than his melee attacks)?
They won't; his melee ones will.
Blue Tornado gets negated by the Darksphere.
Darksphere gets negated by Sonic's willpower; he's been shown to resist evil influences on his mind.
If you want to know more about a particular character than ask the associated person:

:4mario::

:4drmario::

:4luigi::

:4peach::

:4bowser::

:4bowserjr::

:rosalina::

:4yoshi::

:4wario2::

:4dk::

:4diddy::

:4link::

:younglinkmelee::

:4tlink::

:4zelda::

:4sheik::

:4ganondorf::

:4samus::

:4zss::

:4pit::

:4darkpit::

:4palutena::

:4marth::

:roypm::

:4myfriends:: Reckless Godwin 2.0

:4robinm:/:4robinf::

:4lucina::

:4kirby::

:4dedede::

:4metaknight::

:4fox::

:4falco::

:wolf::

:pt::

:4pikachu::

:pichumelee::

:4charizard::

:4lucario::

:4jigglypuff::

:4mewtwo::

:4greninja::

:4ness::

:4lucas::

:4falcon::

:4villager:/:4villagerf::

:4olimar::

:4littlemac::

:4wiifit:/:4wiifitm::

:4shulk:: Reckless Godwin 2.0

:popo::

:4rob::

:4duckhunt::

:4pacman::

:4megaman::

:4sonic::

:snake::

:4miibrawl::

:4miisword::

:4miigun::

Copy and paste if you update this list. I would also appreciate feedback on this.
Good idea. I'd be glad to serve as the Sonic guru, and I'd recommend Dryn for Samus.
@ Kirby Dragons Kirby Dragons @ Munomario777 Munomario777 This clip should end that discussion about that knife in Pikmin 2 https://youtu.be/paCimchP3Io?t=800 at 13:20-13:58.
So it's a matter of marketing then. Figures.
 

Crystanium

Smash Hero
Joined
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Messages
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Kirby can use Ninja Kirby or Jet Kirby to avoid the Power Bomb.
If the explosive is TNT, then it's traveling 20 times faster than sound, which means Kirby won't be able to escape, since his top speed is a low-end Mach 5. If ninja Kirby hides in shadows, that should be easily overcome with the thermal visor, which will pick up Kirby's body temperature.

Reflect Guard and Reflect Force are instant. If Kirby isn't quick enough, he can always activate the moves as Samus raises her arm cannon.
This honestly won't matter. Let's assume Samus and Kirby are at the far ends of the battlefield. That means each are ten miles away from one another. If electrolasers (which I argued the plasma beam is one) fire man-made lightning, and if this speed travels at the speed of lightning (224,000 miles per hour), then if Samus fired at Kirby, the beam would cover ten miles in 161 milliseconds. Since Kirby and Samus will be closer, say 30 feet apart, one shot will cover that distance in 91.31 microseconds. Kirby will be too slow, especially with my new argument concerning Samus wave, light, and nova beams.

And which were accepted because of the majority opinion.
The majority can be wrong. It's happened. We shouldn't appeal to the majority. We should appeal to what's sound, and if the result ends up being the majority, then so be it.

Now that this is a whole vote and all, I'd just like to remind everyone of the "objects move at the speeds shown" rule.
That's fine, Munomario777. I simply argued for Samus' beam weapons and her ability to dodge them. I used lore, as you can see. I established my argument using that and syllogisms. I'm not arguing in favor of Mario dodging cannonballs, although my argument should allow for more investigation on the idea of objects traveling only at the speed the game demonstrates them as.

The Light Speed Dash can travel straight up. Is this possible with the effects that you mentioned?
If Sonic is traveling at light speed, then yes. Sonic would just need to be careful escaping the planet's orbit. Earth's escape velocity is 11.2 km/s, and light travels approximately 300,000 km/s.

As I said before, the 1200 SPD measurement comes from a clip where Sonic is simply boosting in a straight line.
I know, but the association between the diagonal speed boost and the SPD would make the use of the SPD dubious.

The Light Speed Dash is capable of following Ring trails with tight turns in them, and the Light Speed Attack can change direction on the spot when hitting consecutive chains of enemies. The Sonic Boost, which is faster than those two techniques, has poor turning capabilities, so it makes sense that Sonic would sacrifice speed in favor of handling in those situations.
The LSD/LSA should have poor turning because even traveling at the speed of sound would make turning more difficult as one is covering more distance in less time. You may think the sonic boost is faster than the LSD/LSA because of the SPD, but then the LSD/LSA should suffer the same problem. It doesn't matter if you think the sonic boost is faster. This should apply for all of Sonic's speed.

@ Reckless Godwin 2.0 Reckless Godwin 2.0 , I'm working with the "4.8 billion teratons". This is essentially the same as "4.8 sextillion metric tons". Earth is "5.9 billion teratons", or "5.9 sextillion metric tons".
 

Munomario777

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I know, but the association between the diagonal speed boost and the SPD would make the use of the SPD dubious.
It should be fine if we're sure that the player isn't snaking at the time the measurement is taken.
The LSD/LSA should have poor turning because even traveling at the speed of sound would make turning more difficult as one is covering more distance in less time. You may think the sonic boost is faster than the LSD/LSA because of the SPD, but then the LSD/LSA should suffer the same problem. It doesn't matter if you think the sonic boost is faster. This should apply for all of Sonic's speed.
Still, lower speeds are easier to control than higher ones. Of course, this could also be another attribute of the upgrades; for example, in Sonic Unleashed, the Light Speed Shoes are revealed to be made of the same material as Rings, which might help with sticking to that path so precisely.
 

ShadowLBlue

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Dec 8, 2014
Messages
191
For the most part they should. I never use the information from the original Metroid because it's been retconned by Metroid: Zero Mission. Yet, there are details that have not been retconned or even addressed, such as Ridley being the last native of planet Zebes, or Samus being a cyborg.
I'd vote yes.

And @ Kirby Dragons Kirby Dragons , @ Munomario777 Munomario777 , I'd be in favor of a revote for rules if someone has an argument or evidence that has convinced the majority a rule is wrong.

Anyways, what's been going on the last few pages? Did we reach an agrement on the Stealing thing?
 

Kirby Dragons

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Thus, we use the default "invincibility" description in relation to stealing items.
Invincibility doesn't mean your items can't be taken away.

Protect doesn't have an "invincibility" description, by the way.
The person is resisting, or struggling against, the item being taken away.
But that happens after Trick is used anyways.
I could attempt to charge up enough power in a generator to lift my house into orbit, but that doesn't mean that it would actually work.
And no one anticipates that you can do that. A generator's charge isn't for lifting houses into orbit.
Similarly, a mirror bounces lasers away, but can be easily crushed.
Super Sonic doesn't bounce lasers away.
It's on the left hand side.
It didn't even hit Sonic.
Marx launches off independent from the knockback from Kirby's attack once he was defeated.
You're just restating your opinion. This doesn't prove anything.
And the finger hit the button.
And launched it. Similarly, Kirby's attack launched Marx.
Know to grab on.
I think that would be a question I should be asking.
How would that help him grab onto a super-fast object?
If you want to grab something, you wouldn't have your hands away from what you're trying to grab.
In gameplay, they're practically the same. They're even similar from a visual standpoint, since Shadow was based on ancient prophecies about Super Sonic saving the world (or something along those lines).
And Shadow can do pretty much all the same things anyways.
The shields are at least, and the Boost goes straight through them. Kirby can't turn around in time.
Boost has to charge, Kirby can turn around then.
No, because the robots die in one hit.
Dying doesn't prevent one from suffering knockback.
If he can resist mind control, it's safe to say that he could prevent himself from sleeping through a battle.
But sleeping isn't any sort of mind control.
Plus, his quills can sense danger, including Kirby's attacks.
How is this relevant?
Prove it.
I'm not going to prove something I've already proved.
A human without bones, then.
Can't be flattened like a piece of paper, so no comparison here either.
Which doesn't at all damage the planet.

And in Triple Deluxe's case, we don't see the damage because there is no damage to see.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circular_reasoning
A tornado doesn't necessarily injure you that much, but sends you flying into the air.
The explosion is made of fire, which causes injury.
A bullet will likely kill you, but won't knock you back.
How is that relevant here?
Prove that Kirby's squishy enough to accomplish this. He cannot flatten himself without getting crushed between two objects, so why would he be able to here?
After becoming Mini Kirby and ducking, he'd become nigh flat. Impossibly tiny as well, just like the crack. He'd be small enough to crush himself between the car and the ground, because he is strong enough to force himself through.
And it would then hit him when he reappears.
Does said fireball last forever? If not, Kirby would just keep teleporting until it disappears.

I also imagine that if Kirby is gone after teleporting, it wouldn't have anything to home into, and would just become a normal fireball.
I'd say solid earth is rather durable.
Oh yeah, that's what I meant to say.
Either way, fire doesn't break like a solid object. It gets extinguished.
The fire would be extinguished then.
Really.
It's still like going around a round object; you need to turn.
Slightly. Not that big a deal.
He could just constantly vary his speed; no reaction needed.
He can't constantly do anything if Kirby's moving so much faster than him. Kirby will be in the hole before Bowser can even think of varying his speed.
Can the attack you mention be curved?
I didn't mention any specific attack.
No, Kirby is near Bowser at this point; he tried to approach, but Bowser deterred him.
When would Kirby even try to approach Bowser?
I'm not sure why we're comparing the Stone ability and the Ground Pound in the first place; it wouldn't really affect the matchup.
Ground Pound is the most powerful attack Bowser can resist, so he wouldn't be able to resist an attack that's even more powerful.
Unless he's in Stone form.
A) Stone form protects Kirby from dying, so the golden fireball wouldn't work here anyways.
B) Kirby can switch to Animal Statues ability, so he can jump over the fireball.

By the way, for the match of Mewtwo vs Mario, I'd like to bring up Mewtwo's Magic Room. It negates all items, so Mario can't use power-ups.
"If you're flat". Kirby is not flat.
He becomes nigh flat.
Real black holes don't lack distortion.
Again, artwork doesn't prove/disprove anything.
Real black holes cause spaghettification. Schwarz pulls Kirby in slowly.
And kills him.
Why would a car explode?
Because their fuel is being attacked by fire.
That's not logical.
And why not?
The Lumas transform into the galaxies. The objects are never shown, implied, stated, etc to be there beforehand.
That doesn't mean the Lumas actually turn into the objects. Maybe they are just spawned.
They can't become a black hole individually either.
No, because there are so many to choose from. Just look at a few on the page I linked you to.
"Why Making a Pokemon Game With All Regions Would Be Illogical" This refers to the creation of a game, not something that happens within the game.
"Questioning the Real Logic in Pokemon" This is comparing the anime to the games.
"Contribute to the illogical of pokemon" Mainly talks about behavior of characters, or something there is a logical explanation for.
"Illogical stuff in Pokemon" That talks mainly about anime.
"So many illogical things" Talks about Ash's behavior in the anime.

None of the links I looked at really said anything at all.
They happen at the end of the story.
They happen at the end of the game, but not the story. They are their own individual stories, so they don't progress another one.
A chunk of ballistics gel, then.
Same thing applies.
Then Sonic should be able to use Chaos Control to escape.
Kirby will twirl the baton to make Sonic dizzy.
When Silver says "It's no use!", he's trying to grab Shadow.
With telekinesis?
And the suction isn't below Kirby.
I never said it was. The suction and Sonic are both above Kirby, so Sonic goes into Kirby's mouth.
I was talking about using Chaos Control for time freezing.
When he steps onto the front of the Extreme Gear.
And yet he never does.
Do we see him step to the front of the EG at a high speed?
He can go from running to riding in an instant; this happens often during gameplay, as a matter of fact.
But not running to charging the Spin Attack to riding, so there'd be delay.
Do you have a source for this?
http://www.helpguide.org/articles/stress/stress-symptoms-causes-and-effects.htm
Inability to concentrate. If he was stressed, he wouldn't be able to concentrate on writing/making observations.
The giant monsters could be a source for concussions, now that I think about it.
They aren't. Olimar doesn't show the recovery of someone that just got a concussion, so we know that he doesn't get them.
Prove that bullets would get stopped by the Pikmin.
The bullets would hit them, but not Olimar.
Except getting the guns back.
That would be difficult when a bunch of Pikmin are attacking them.
Except we don't know that he saw it.
Then why would he write about it and say that he saw it?
And then he goes insane again; he claims that a normal knife can slice through dimensions, in a game where no other dimension slicing exists.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circular_reasoning
On PNF-404, the source of his stress etc.
PNF-404 wouldn't be the source of his stress. It would be the giant monsters and caves that he never has to see again.
Right, but there's another definition. The King of Bugs description refers to a silly thought or idea, the EEE description refers to 2), and Olimar is being diagnosed with 1) and 4).

It's a silly thought, not an insane person.
Saying the slicer cuts through space and time when it doesn't is a silly thought.
Right; he's dealing with them, leading to stress, anxiety, etc.
And suffering several points of relief from inching ever so closer to his goal.
Olimar is helpless. The Pikmin just happen to be helping him, and could turn on him at any time.
Olimar isn't helpless when he has a large army at his disposal. Even if they did turn on him, he wouldn't be helpless before they did.
When do we see this process, and when is it proven true?
It is a fully functional scanner, so it would make correct statements. We see the process happening.
If they can hit enemies, logic says they can hit each other (which would deflect them). There's no reason the Star Bits wouldn't deflect each other.
And Rosalina goes in front of where Kirby is flying towards.
And Kirby flies in another direction. Or, attacks with one of his several wall-passing attacks.
And Rosalina creates another forcefield again, or creates a bigger forcefield so Kirby can't teleport out (it has a limited range for all we know).
The Mega Mushroom is gone, so she doesn't have any way to attack. When has Rosalina created big forcefields? Even if she could, Kirby would just teleport multiple times.
Unless Sonic KOs Marth quickly enough.
Not likely, because his projectiles aren't fast enough to do that, and his physical attacks are negated by Falchion.
Blue Tornado isn't negated by things like shields, so I don't see why the Falchion would block it.
Big difference. Shields block attacks, Falchion negates them.
Putting a sword in a sheath doesn't prevent it from being stolen by someone who can freeze time.
He'd freeze Falchion in time too.
Unless Falchion is gone.
Through what methods? Blue Tornado is negated.
Sonic attacks him before then.
Marth does a backwards kick to hold him off. The Risen also works here.
Actually, Team Dark's Team Blast in Sonic Heroes involves the team attacking enemies during Chaos Control's time freezing.
And do they take knockback?
Prove that his personality is feral.
Who said regular Sonic's personality is feral? Regular Sonic's personality isn't feral, and that's why Sonic's attacks are negated by Darksphere.
The product is a dagger.
Which is made to the best of its ability.
If the suit is skin-tight or near skin-tight (which the Power Suit is), there's nowhere for Kirby to teleport.
Kirby can flatten, so no amount of tightness will stop him from going in.
You can touch air.
Prove this.
Then how are they moving?
Air can't be touched.
Any time they hit an enemy.
And Samus uses more Power Bombs. The gunship is faster than Jet Kirby.
Are you suggesting Samus would fire Power Bombs from the Gunship? She'd just end up destroying the ship.
Can Mirror Kirby withstand explosions of this strength?
That isn't relevant. As I said earlier, Mirror Kirby can reflect things that he can't withstand.
A Mario without power ups and equipment? Dr. Mario has no business being in the upper tiers.
Regular Mario doesn't have any business being up there, either.
@ Kirby Dragons Kirby Dragons @ Munomario777 Munomario777 This clip should end that discussion about that knife in Pikmin 2 https://youtu.be/paCimchP3Io?t=800 at 13:20-13:58.
The ship talks about naming items. How does that settle anything?
If the explosive is TNT, then it's traveling 20 times faster than sound, which means Kirby won't be able to escape, since his top speed is a low-end Mach 5. If ninja Kirby hides in shadows, that should be easily overcome with the thermal visor, which will pick up Kirby's body temperature.
Unless we see the explosive moving at that speed, or it is said to move at that speed in the game, it doesn't.
This honestly won't matter. Let's assume Samus and Kirby are at the far ends of the battlefield. That means each are ten miles away from one another. If electrolasers (which I argued the plasma beam is one) fire man-made lightning, and if this speed travels at the speed of lightning (224,000 miles per hour), then if Samus fired at Kirby, the beam would cover ten miles in 161 milliseconds. Since Kirby and Samus will be closer, say 30 feet apart, one shot will cover that distance in 91.31 microseconds. Kirby will be too slow, especially with my new argument concerning Samus wave, light, and nova beams.
Same as above.


:4mario::

:4drmario::

:4luigi::

:4peach::

:4bowser::

:4bowserjr:: Kirby Dragons

:rosalina::

:4yoshi::

:4wario2::

:4dk::

:4diddy::

:4link::

:younglinkmelee::

:4tlink::

:4zelda:: Kirby Dragons

:4sheik::

:4ganondorf::

:4samus:: Dryn

:4zss::

:4pit::

:4darkpit::

:4palutena:: Kirby Dragons

:4marth:: Kirby Dragons

:roypm::

:4myfriends:: Reckless Godwin 2.0

:4robinm:/:4robinf::

:4lucina::

:4kirby:: Kirby Dragons

:4dedede:: Kirby Dragons

:4metaknight:: Kirby Dragons

:4fox::

:4falco::

:wolf::

:pt::

:4pikachu::

:pichumelee::

:4charizard::

:4lucario::

:4jigglypuff::

:4mewtwo:: Kirby Dragons

:4greninja::

:4ness:: Kirby Dragons

:4lucas::

:4falcon::

:4villager:/:4villagerf::

:4olimar::

:4littlemac::

:4wiifit:/:4wiifitm::

:4shulk:: Reckless Godwin 2.0

:popo::

:4rob::

:4duckhunt::

:4pacman::

:4megaman::

:4sonic:: Munomario777

:snake::

:4miibrawl:: Kirby Dragons

:4miisword:: Kirby Dragons

:4miigun:: Kirby Dragons
 

Munomario777

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Invincibility doesn't mean your items can't be taken away.
It technically doesn't mean resilient to damage either; it means "incapable of being conquered, defeated, or subdued."
Protect doesn't have an "invincibility" description, by the way.
And yet Mewtwo can't use Trick on Protect users.
But that happens after Trick is used anyways.
True.
And no one anticipates that you can do that. A generator's charge isn't for lifting houses into orbit.
Is Mewtwo made for doing what he plans to?
Super Sonic doesn't bounce lasers away.
And?
It didn't even hit Sonic.
I'm referring to the boss fight in Sonic Adventure, where perfect Chaos also uses this attack. I can't find a source for Super Sonic being damaged by the laser, so I'll assume that he doesn't, as that fits in with the majority of cases.
You're just restating your opinion. This doesn't prove anything.
Kirby knocking Marx about a foot sideways and then Marx suddenly launching off into space isn't an opinion.
And launched it. Similarly, Kirby's attack launched Marx.
Right. The finger doesn't possess the force required for launch.
I think that would be a question I should be asking.
Would you like to answer it?
If you want to grab something, you wouldn't have your hands away from what you're trying to grab.
I wouldn't want to grab onto a blazing-fast object personally; I value my limbs.
And Shadow can do pretty much all the same things anyways.
He can't run as quickly.
Boost has to charge, Kirby can turn around then.
The Sonic Boost is instant.
Dying doesn't prevent one from suffering knockback.
They explode into smithereens before they get a chance to, and when they don't, they actually do get knocked back.
But sleeping isn't any sort of mind control.
It's an influence on the state of one's mind.
How is this relevant?
It could wake him like a natural "alarm clock". It's speculation though.
I'm not going to prove something I've already proved.
Prove this, then.
Can't be flattened like a piece of paper, so no comparison here either.
With enough force.
We see no damage, therefore there is no damage. How is this circular reasoning?
The explosion is made of fire, which causes injury.
Looks more like magic pink energy to me.
How is that relevant here?
Knockback and damage aren't indicative of one another.
After becoming Mini Kirby and ducking, he'd become nigh flat. Impossibly tiny as well, just like the crack. He'd be small enough to crush himself between the car and the ground, because he is strong enough to force himself through.
The crack is smaller.
Does said fireball last forever? If not, Kirby would just keep teleporting until it disappears.
I don't think it disappears unless it hits a solid surface.
I also imagine that if Kirby is gone after teleporting, it wouldn't have anything to home into, and would just become a normal fireball.
It would go in a straight line most likely, but it would resume chasing after Kirby reappears.
Oh yeah, that's what I meant to say.
It still won't "break" a fireball.
The fire would be extinguished then.
When has the attack been shown to extinguish flames?
Notice how he doesn't tumble here. Kirby would have no time to react and slow down, so he would tumble off like in the clip I showed.
Slightly. Not that big a deal.
Bowser isn't big enough for the curve to go unnoticed.
He can't constantly do anything if Kirby's moving so much faster than him. Kirby will be in the hole before Bowser can even think of varying his speed.
Fair enough.
I didn't mention any specific attack.
Weren't you referring to the projectile that Jet Kirby used in the anime clip?
When would Kirby even try to approach Bowser?
When he tried to fly into the holes.
Ground Pound is the most powerful attack Bowser can resist, so he wouldn't be able to resist an attack that's even more powerful.
Ah, right. Normal Bowser can resist the Ground Pound, so it seems likely that Giga Bowser could resist Stone.
A) Stone form protects Kirby from dying, so the golden fireball wouldn't work here anyways.
Has it protected from a similarly King Midas-esque attack?
B) Kirby can switch to Animal Statues ability, so he can jump over the fireball.
Unless Mario gets up close, or just fires multiple fireballs.
By the way, for the match of Mewtwo vs Mario, I'd like to bring up Mewtwo's Magic Room. It negates all items, so Mario can't use power-ups.
I see. Mario could equip one item before this occurred, most likely, such as a Starman or Mega Mushroom.
He becomes nigh flat.
And not flat.
Again, artwork doesn't prove/disprove anything.
Why not?
And kills him.
Right, but not via spaghettification.
Because their fuel is being attacked by fire.
And Marx flies off because his body is being attacked by Kirby.
And why not?
Kirby launching Marx sideways doesn't lead to Marx launching upwards without another force.
That doesn't mean the Lumas actually turn into the objects. Maybe they are just spawned.
The Lumas turn into the galaxies, including black holes.
They can't become a black hole individually either.
That doesn't stop them from using black holes within galaxies.
"Why Making a Pokemon Game With All Regions Would Be Illogical" This refers to the creation of a game, not something that happens within the game.
"Questioning the Real Logic in Pokemon" This is comparing the anime to the games.
"Contribute to the illogical of pokemon" Mainly talks about behavior of characters, or something there is a logical explanation for.
"Illogical stuff in Pokemon" That talks mainly about anime.
"So many illogical things" Talks about Ash's behavior in the anime.

None of the links I looked at really said anything at all.
Okay, then. Pokemon without hands holding things. Ice being weak to steel. Magikarp using Splash when no water is in sight. The list goes on, really.
They happen at the end of the game, but not the story. They are their own individual stories, so they don't progress another one.
A story is an account of events. I don't see how something taking place after the main boss is defeated separates it from all other events in the game.
Same thing applies.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=mW72OPR4UQ0
Kirby will twirl the baton to make Sonic dizzy.
If Sonic can spin around at the speeds he does on a regular basis, I doubt a bit of twirling will make him dizzy.
With telekinesis?
Yes.
I never said it was. The suction and Sonic are both above Kirby, so Sonic goes into Kirby's mouth.
Sonic is coming from below.
I was talking about using Chaos Control for time freezing.
Ah, okay. It takes about a second in Team Dark's Team Blast in Heroes, but that's mainly due to getting in formation and saying "Chaos Control!" Since we know saying that can be bypassed for teleportation, we can assume the same goes for time freezing as well.
When he steps onto the front of the Extreme Gear.
Sonic would already be moving at high speeds.
Do we see him step to the front of the EG at a high speed?
Actually, no. Now that I think about it, moving forward isn't really necessary when riding an Extreme Gear.
But not running to charging the Spin Attack to riding, so there'd be delay.
He'd go from running to riding to charging.
http://www.helpguide.org/articles/stress/stress-symptoms-causes-and-effects.htm
Inability to concentrate. If he was stressed, he wouldn't be able to concentrate on writing/making observations.
Which would explain the inaccuracies.
They aren't. Olimar doesn't show the recovery of someone that just got a concussion, so we know that he doesn't get them.
The lack of recovery time would actually make the effects more severe, would it not? Either way, he gets a good night's sleep aboard his ship every night.
The bullets would hit them, but not Olimar.
Prove it.
That would be difficult when a bunch of Pikmin are attacking them.
Pikmin wouldn't get there in time, and they need to be up close in order to attack.
Then why would he write about it and say that he saw it?
That's insanity for ya.
How so?
PNF-404 wouldn't be the source of his stress. It would be the giant monsters and caves that he never has to see again.
And yet here he is in Pikmin 2, once again fighting giant monsters and spelunking through dangerous caved.
Saying the slicer cuts through space and time when it doesn't is a silly thought.
It is, but that's besides the point (and not what I was saying in the first place).
And suffering several points of relief from inching ever so closer to his goal.
A few moments of triumph cannot compare to the days of agony, fear, and pain.
Olimar isn't helpless when he has a large army at his disposal. Even if they did turn on him, he wouldn't be helpless before they did.
Helpless means unable to defend oneself or act without help. The Pikmin are help, and Olimar cannot defend himself without them.
It is a fully functional scanner, so it would make correct statements. We see the process happening.
It calls a regular Duracell battery a "courage reactor" and claims that it emits love (or something to that effect).
If they can hit enemies, logic says they can hit each other (which would deflect them). There's no reason the Star Bits wouldn't deflect each other.
Gameplay says that they don't, so they don't. Either way, a Luma's mouth is wide enough for multiple streams.
And Kirby flies in another direction. Or, attacks with one of his several wall-passing attacks.
And Rosalina once again goes in front of Kirby. When Kirby uses a wall-passing attack, Rosalina moves the force field.
The Mega Mushroom is gone, so she doesn't have any way to attack.
Except, you know, black holes, Starmen, etc.
When has Rosalina created big forcefields? Even if she could, Kirby would just teleport multiple times.
Not likely, because his projectiles aren't fast enough to do that, and his physical attacks are negated by Falchion.
Falchion is gone.
Big difference. Shields block attacks, Falchion negates them.
And both can be removed by strong winds.
He'd freeze Falchion in time too.
He can still interact with it. In fact, in Team Dark's Team Blast, enemies are defeated while time is frozen.
Through what methods? Blue Tornado is negated.
It's not an attack. Has Falchion negated techniques of this nature before?
Marth does a backwards kick to hold him off. The Risen also works here.
Super Sonic b
And do they take knockback?
No, they explode, which involves movement/interaction.
Who said regular Sonic's personality is feral?
I was referring to the Werehog.
Regular Sonic's personality isn't feral, and that's why Sonic's attacks are negated by Darksphere.
When is it stated or shown that the Darksphere negates attacks from those who lack feral personalities?
[/quote]Which is made to the best of its ability.[/quote]
Right.
Kirby can flatten, so no amount of tightness will stop him from going in.
When has Kirby gone completely flat on his own?
Prove this.

Air can't be touched.
"You are always touching and being in physical contact with air. This is because air is made up of gases that float all around us." - a user on answers.com
Any time they hit an enemy.
Could you provide a video please?
Are you suggesting Samus would fire Power Bombs from the Gunship? She'd just end up destroying the ship.
And Kirby.
That isn't relevant. As I said earlier, Mirror Kirby can reflect things that he can't withstand.
Does that include explosions of this force?
Regular Mario doesn't have any business being up there, either.
The Mega Mushroom alone earns him a decent spot.
The ship talks about naming items. How does that settle anything?
The sales pitch is equally false.
 

Crystanium

Smash Hero
Joined
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Messages
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Location
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Unless we see the explosive moving at that speed, or it is said to move at that speed in the game, it doesn't.
If a character who can travel at the speed of sound or faster actually traveled at that speed in game play, it would be impossible to play. So it is with projectiles that should be traveling faster, but fail to do so during game play. It's been established that Samus' weapons are directed-energy weapons. These weapons travel either at the speed of sound (sonic weapons), near the speed of light (some plasma weapons and particle beams), or at the speed of light (lasers, microwaves).

I've already used lore and logic to present Samus' wave beam traveling at light speed. I've presented what makes sense of the plasma beam in the 2D games (it fires lasers, but it's a plasma weapon, and yet it produces an electrical discharge, which all lead to an electrolaser, as electrolasers take advantage of laser-induced plasma channels).

Also, since TNT is one of the most common explosives in the military. Samus was part of the Galactic Federation Army. I think you can see where this is going. So regardless of what you think about some vote that wasn't given much thought, I've already proved why Samus' weapons travel faster than what they look like during game play.
 
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Kirby Dragons

Smash Hero
Joined
Aug 30, 2014
Messages
5,184
Location
Another Dimension
It technically doesn't mean resilient to damage either; it means "incapable of being conquered, defeated, or subdued."
This isn't reflected in gameplay. And also Invincible Mario's items can be taken away from him. He can create a 1-UP, but someone else can steal it.
And yet Mewtwo can't use Trick on Protect users.
Point?
Is Mewtwo made for doing what he plans to?
Believe it or not, yes. He was created to be the most powerful Pokemon, and destroying a planet is more powerful than anything that another Pokemon was shown to do at the time.
If not, that means Super Sonic can't be compared to a mirror, and both strong crushing and laser attacks will hurt him.
I'm referring to the boss fight in Sonic Adventure, where perfect Chaos also uses this attack. I can't find a source for Super Sonic being damaged by the laser, so I'll assume that he doesn't, as that fits in with the majority of cases.
The laser isn't as powerful as Mewtwo's island lasers.
Kirby knocking Marx about a foot sideways and then Marx suddenly launching off into space isn't an opinion.
It doesn't prove that "Marx being defeated" is a trigger, so that would throw off your finger -> button -> fire -> rocket comparison.
Right. The finger doesn't possess the force required for launch.
Point? The finger is launching the button with its force, which is the thing it actually hits.
Would you like to answer it?
Why wouldn't Kirby know to grab on the second time he summoned Meta Knight? Honestly, I don't see how this helps either of our cases.
I wouldn't want to grab onto a blazing-fast object personally; I value my limbs.
He could've readied his hands before he actually saw MK travel quickly.
He can't run as quickly.
Like most other characters in the series, Shadow can move at super speeds, an innate talent that members of the hedgehog species possess,[9] and he can equally match even Sonic's speed,[10][11] who can move at hypersonic speeds at least.
The Sonic Boost is instant.
Then Kirby's durability would allow him to survive it, while he attacks Sonic right afterward.
They explode into smithereens before they get a chance to, and when they don't, they actually do get knocked back.
That wasn't very high. Even if it was, Kirby could use flight to resist the knockback.
It's an influence on the state of one's mind.
This isn't an influence on the mind; it hits the body.
It could wake him like a natural "alarm clock". It's speculation though.
I doubt it, because sensing danger doesn't wake people up.
Prove this, then.
Kirby > planetary explosion > Light Speed Attack.
With enough force.
How much force, exactly?
We see no damage, therefore there is no damage. How is this circular reasoning?
You: The explosion didn't do any damage.
Me: The explosion did some damage.
You: We didn't see any damage.
Me: It was too far for us to see anything.
You: We didn't see any damage, because the explosion didn't do any damage.

That is circular reasoning. Your argument starts and ends with itself.
Looks more like magic pink energy to me.
The same magic pink energy was shown hurting Dedede in the same game.
Knockback and damage aren't indicative of one another.
See above.
The crack is smaller.
Kirby squishes up into any space he's in, so Kirby would become as small as the crack.
I don't think it disappears unless it hits a solid surface.
Oh.
It would go in a straight line most likely, but it would resume chasing after Kirby reappears.
The fireball would probably hit Bowser's body then before Kirby reappears, seeing as the entire teleport takes about five seconds.
It still won't "break" a fireball.
See below.
When has the attack been shown to extinguish flames?
Two energy attacks often cancel each other out.
Notice how he doesn't tumble here. Kirby would have no time to react and slow down, so he would tumble off like in the clip I showed.
Tumbling and shock don't prevent one from moving, though.
Bowser isn't big enough for the curve to go unnoticed.
How would noticing the curve help Bowser at all (especially since he can't move quick enough to do anything)?
Weren't you referring to the projectile that Jet Kirby used in the anime clip?
Yep.
When he tried to fly into the holes.
If he tried to fly into the holes, he'd be moving at Mach 5, and he'd succeed because of it.
Ah, right. Normal Bowser can resist the Ground Pound, so it seems likely that Giga Bowser could resist Stone.
Kirby can launch things off into space (proved by encounters with Hardy, Octagon, and Marx). Launching a rocket into space takes 7.2 million pounds of force. Those villains are a lot smaller and lighter than a rocket, so that would decrease the required force quite a bit, but we would still get at least thousands of pounds of force (with gravitational pull in mind). Can Giga Bowser survive something like that?
Has it protected from a similarly King Midas-esque attack?
No, but it protects against anything that causes damage. The fireball causes damage (it kills), so Stone would work against it.
Unless Mario gets up close, or just fires multiple fireballs.
Neither of those account for Kirby being in the air.

In the long run, I don't see Mario surviving or dodging two Mach 5 attacks from Jet Kirby. Unless he's using Starman or Mega Mushroom, but Kirby would wait until after those wear off. Other invincibility items can't be activated in time.
I see. Mario could equip one item before this occurred, most likely, such as a Starman or Mega Mushroom.
True, but either of those could easily be waited out by Mewtwo taking flight. Also, neither item protects against a crushing wall, so a vastly superior island beam should work against them.
And not flat.
Nigh flat, like the crack.
The artwork is just what someone wants something to look like. It isn't meant for telling things about something.
Right, but not via spaghettification.
Is spaghettification caused by the force of a black hole?
And Marx flies off because his body is being attacked by Kirby.
And launched.
Kirby launching Marx sideways doesn't lead to Marx launching upwards without another force.
Again, slingshot action, or moment of suspense.
The Lumas turn into the galaxies, including black holes.
The Lumas turn into the galaxies, containing black holes.
That doesn't stop them from using black holes within galaxies.
They don't use them for anything.
Okay, then. Pokemon without hands holding things. Ice being weak to steel. Magikarp using Splash when no water is in sight. The list goes on, really.
Allow me to provide some counterexamples.
  • Thunder and Twister can both hit Pokemon using Fly. Logic.
  • Sunny Day raises the Special Attack of Pokemon with Solar Power. Logic.
  • Bug Bite can be used to eat items. Logic.
  • Entrainment doesn't affect a Pokemon with Imposter. Logic.
  • Electrify, when used on Freeze-Dry, doesn't affect its ability to hit a water Pokemon. Logic.
Also, how is ice being weak to steel illogical? Magikarp using Splash is because Water-type Pokemon often generate water.
A story is an account of events. I don't see how something taking place after the main boss is defeated separates it from all other events in the game.
Because it isn't a part of the main story, so it doesn't progress that story.
That didn't squish up when the guy smacked it, so it doesn't have the same properties as Kirby.
If Sonic can spin around at the speeds he does on a regular basis, I doubt a bit of twirling will make him dizzy.
Kirby can alternate his twirling. This would make Sonic confused, since he's only used to spinning in one direction. Eventually, he explodes.
Sonic is coming from below.
Sonic using Yellow Drill is affected by gravity, so he'd just fall.
Ah, okay. It takes about a second in Team Dark's Team Blast in Heroes, but that's mainly due to getting in formation and saying "Chaos Control!" Since we know saying that can be bypassed for teleportation, we can assume the same goes for time freezing as well.
Okay.
Sonic would already be moving at high speeds.
Does he ever run at high speeds while standing on top of the Extreme Gear?
Actually, no. Now that I think about it, moving forward isn't really necessary when riding an Extreme Gear.
If he wants to keep the Extreme Gear moving while he charges, he'd have to move forward.
He'd go from running to riding to charging.
After starting the ride, how would he move to the front and charge? Without delay or falling off?
Which would explain the inaccuracies.
What inaccuracies?
The lack of recovery time would actually make the effects more severe, would it not?
How?
Either way, he gets a good night's sleep aboard his ship every night.
Wouldn't that mean he's not stressed? If I'm not mistaken, stress can cause insomnia.
Prove it.
They'd get on Olimar, and the bullets would shoot them instead of Olimar.
Pikmin wouldn't get there in time, and they need to be up close in order to attack.
Olimar has a lot of Pikmin, they'd be everywhere.
That's insanity for ya.
Olimar isn't insane though.
You: The Dimensional Slicer doesn't cut through space and time.
Me: Olimar observed that it did.
You: Olimar is insane, he doesn't make correct observations.
Me: Olimar isn't insane.
You: He got stress and insanity from fighting monsters.
Me: The monsters are gone, so he lost the insanity.
You: And then he goes insane again; he claims that a normal knife can slice through dimensions, in a game where no other dimension slicing exists.

Your argument begins and ends with itself, so it's circular reasoning.
And yet here he is in Pikmin 2, once again fighting giant monsters and spelunking through dangerous caved.
He deals with all of those too.
It is, but that's besides the point (and not what I was saying in the first place).
You were saying that the King of Bugs' description is a different kind of insanity. It isn't. Olimar can tell what's crazy and what isn't.
A few moments of triumph cannot compare to the days of agony, fear, and pain.
After all that "agony, fear, and pain", there's triumph. They both come in the same amount.
Helpless means unable to defend oneself or act without help. The Pikmin are help, and Olimar cannot defend himself without them.
Olimar doesn't feel this feeling though, because he's being helped.
It calls a regular Duracell battery a "courage reactor" and claims that it emits love (or something to that effect).
It actually does. Read Olimar's journal notes, he expresses love in them.
Gameplay says that they don't, so they don't.
Gameplay says that the Chateau Romani freezes time. Are we going to allow that?
Either way, a Luma's mouth is wide enough for multiple streams.
Doesn't look like it to me.
And Rosalina once again goes in front of Kirby. When Kirby uses a wall-passing attack, Rosalina moves the force field.
Laser Kirby's Big Laser Blast passes through walls and is long-ranged, so moving the forcefield won't stop it. Also, it counts as two hits, so it would OHKO Rosalina.
Except, you know, black holes, Starmen, etc.
Starman is gone too. The black hole would suck up Rosalina, and no one can control where the black holes go anyways.
Did Rosalina actually create that?
Falchion is gone.
Not by methods that will actually work.
And both can be removed by strong winds.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circular_reasoning
He can still interact with it. In fact, in Team Dark's Team Blast, enemies are defeated while time is frozen.
But are the enemies knocked back? That's what I'm wondering.
It's not an attack. Has Falchion negated techniques of this nature before?
No, but doesn't Blue Tornado do damage?
Super Sonic b
Um.
No, they explode, which involves movement/interaction.
If the explosion doesn't move anything, there's no movement.
I was referring to the Werehog.
He chooses to fight in a more ferocious way.
When is it stated or shown that the Darksphere negates attacks from those who lack feral personalities?
That's not what I'm talking about. Regular Sonic doesn't have resistance to the Darksphere.

Which is made to the best of its ability.
Right.
When has Kirby gone completely flat on his own?
Never, he's gone nigh flat on his own. The crack lets him go completely flat.
"You are always touching and being in physical contact with air. This is because air is made up of gases that float all around us." - a user on answers.com
How would that guy know anything about air?
Could you provide a video please?
See 0:25.
And Kirby.
The Gunship would block the Power Bomb from hitting Kirby.
Does that include explosions of this force?
Yes, it includes anything of any force.
The Mega Mushroom alone earns him a decent spot.
The Mega Mushroom only lasts about twenty seconds. Any character who can run, fly, or teleport would be able to avoid it. There are also some durable characters that Mario wouldn't be able to harm that much. Also, Mega Mario can still be hurt by strong attacks, so characters like Shulk or Ness can still harm Mario.
The sales pitch is equally false.
Prove it.
If a character who can travel at the speed of sound or faster actually traveled at that speed in game play, it would be impossible to play. So it is with projectiles that should be traveling faster, but fail to do so during game play. It's been established that Samus' weapons are directed-energy weapons. These weapons travel either at the speed of sound (sonic weapons), near the speed of light (some plasma weapons and particle beams), or at the speed of light (lasers, microwaves).

I've already used lore and logic to present Samus' wave beam traveling at light speed. I've presented what makes sense of the plasma beam in the 2D games (it fires lasers, but it's a plasma weapon, and yet it produces an electrical discharge, which all lead to an electrolaser, as electrolasers take advantage of laser-induced plasma channels).

Also, since TNT is one of the most common explosives in the military. Samus was part of the Galactic Federation Army. I think you can see where this is going. So regardless of what you think about some vote that wasn't given much thought, I've already proved why Samus' weapons travel faster than what they look like during game play.
Okay. Well, Kirby would be durable enough to withstand the beams anyways. He has taken planetary attacks without dying.
 

Reckless Godwin 2.0

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Mar 23, 2015
Messages
89
Location
Philadelphia, PA
@ Reckless Godwin 2.0 Reckless Godwin 2.0 , I'm working with the "4.8 billion teratons". This is essentially the same as "4.8 sextillion metric tons". Earth is "5.9 billion teratons", or "5.9 sextillion metric tons".
Good, so we are working with the more sensible version of Samus. The difference between the two is a factor of 1000 times in regards to strength thanks to Zebes gravity being a lot more realistic for its size. Was that calc where Samus throws the lava monster based on a normal or 1000X gravity world?

@Dryn Do you want to be the go to source for Samus and/or Zero Suit Samus.

I'd vote yes.

And @ Kirby Dragons Kirby Dragons , @ Munomario777 Munomario777 , I'd be in favor of a revote for rules if someone has an argument or evidence that has convinced the majority a rule is wrong.

Anyways, what's been going on the last few pages? Did we reach an agreement on the Stealing thing?
@ ShadowLBlue ShadowLBlue

Make any headway on Binding Blade?

Main villains: Nergal>Lyon>FE10 Villain>Ashnard. I’ve noticed that Zephiel (FE6) and Manfroy (FE4) get some love from the fan base as well.

Supporting villains: FE10 (Multiple come to mind)>FE7 (Sonia)>FE9 (Black Knight)>FE8.

Final Bosses: FE10 (has most durability and some nasty tricks and one of the few times fortify is a must)>FE9 (will move on higher difficulties)>FE7 (can be trivialized with Luna)>FE8 (can die on 1st player phase).

Nohr seems to be the more interesting choice in FE:if, what do you think?

If you want more news on FE:if, you can find the weekly Famitsu leaks at Serenes Forest.

I’m looking forward to some news from this year’s E3 for news about XCX and FE:if, how about you?

Kirby Dragons and I are arguing about skills on Marth (he wants to use Einherjar Marth), about Pokemon being unable to dodge innately, the effectiveness of Robin and Lucina’s Lethality.

Munomario777 and I are arguing about how Sonic will get past Marth’s Falchion and Darksphere, and Sonic’s speed in general, as well as Protect again (It’s not invincibility, it’s blocking). He also seems to be confused on the nature of the Darksphere.

Munomario777 and Kirby Dragons are arguing about the knife that can cut the fabric of time and space in Pikmin 2, you might want to intervene.

I don't think there has been a consensus with the stealing debate.

I’ve also posted a tier list for Pokemon on page 142, post 5641.

There also seems to be some confusion on what exactly PP are in Pokemon.

I left a post on page 140, post 5593 you might want to look at. Where have you been the past eight days?

You want to be a character reference like me, Munomario777, and Kirby Dragons?

By the way, for the match of Mewtwo vs Mario, I'd like to bring up Mewtwo's Magic Room. It negates all items, so Mario can't use power-ups.

Because their fuel is being attacked by fire.

Then why would he write about it and say that he saw it?

It is a fully functional scanner, so it would make correct statements. We see the process happening.

The Risen also works here.
Does Magic Room apply to equipment as well?

It’s not the gas itself but the fumes that would be responsible in a car explosion.

Olimar’s company is going to sell these “treasures” and they would have the motive to stretch the truth on their sale pitches. Ex: http://pikmin.wikia.com/wiki/Courage_Reactor They claim a Duracell battery’s energy is made by Love and Courage.

This should prove how terrible Olimar and his ship’s computer are at appraising http://pikmin.wikia.com/wiki/Doomsday_Apparatus#Olimar.27s_Journal .

Only Robin and Lucina would have access to Reeking Boxes.

Looks more like magic pink energy to me.

And both can be removed by strong winds.
Looks like no Ontological Inertia in effect to me ( http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/NoOntologicalInertia ).

No limits fallacy! Even the most potent wind tombs can’t disarm Marth, the only way to disarm a combatant in the Fire Emblem series is with the Disarm skill.



@ Kirby Dragons Kirby Dragons I’m putting you down for Bowser Jr., Zelda, Palutena, Marth, the Kirby characters, Mewtwo, Ness, and the Mii Fighters.

We can have more than one person assigned to a given character!
 

Munomario777

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This isn't reflected in gameplay. And also Invincible Mario's items can be taken away from him. He can create a 1-UP, but someone else can steal it.
That's only when he willingly ejects them from his body. Nothing has stolen Rainbow Mario's items when he has them in storage to my knowledge.
If Mewtwo can't get items from inside a simple force field, I doubt he'll be able to get them out of hammerspace.
Believe it or not, yes. He was created to be the most powerful Pokemon, and destroying a planet is more powerful than anything that another Pokemon was shown to do at the time.
That's not specific enough. My generator could be made to be the most powerful generator in the world, and no other generators can lift up houses.
If not, that means Super Sonic can't be compared to a mirror, and both strong crushing and laser attacks will hurt him.
Super Sonic is invulnerable to lasers, and so is a mirror.
The laser isn't as powerful as Mewtwo's island lasers.
Do you have an image of the island lasers?
It doesn't prove that "Marx being defeated" is a trigger, so that would throw off your finger -> button -> fire -> rocket comparison.
Marx launches off as a result of him being defeated. That's what a trigger is.
Point? The finger is launching the button with its force, which is the thing it actually hits.
The force of the finger is initiating the launch, but not powering it.
Why wouldn't Kirby know to grab on the second time he summoned Meta Knight? Honestly, I don't see how this helps either of our cases.
True.
He could've readied his hands before he actually saw MK travel quickly.
He doesn't have time; Meta Knight comes in almost instantly.
Like most other characters in the series, Shadow can move at super speeds, an innate talent that members of the hedgehog species possess,[9] and he can equally match even Sonic's speed,[10][11] who can move at hypersonic speeds at least.
While there is some inconsistency about how fast Shadow ultimately is compared to Sonic, Shadow has admitted that Sonic is the faster of the two of them.[14]
Then Kirby's durability would allow him to survive it, while he attacks Sonic right afterward.
Has Kirby survived an attack of this nature and force before?
That wasn't very high. Even if it was, Kirby could use flight to resist the knockback.
It was very far.
This isn't an influence on the mind; it hits the body.
And it puts one's mind into a state of sleep.
I doubt it, because sensing danger doesn't wake people up.
It's unsure; people don't really have this sort of sense normally.
Kirby > planetary explosion > Light Speed Attack.
Prove it.
How much force, exactly?
I'm not sure. It's certainly possible, though.
You: The explosion didn't do any damage.
Me: The explosion did some damage.
You: We didn't see any damage.
Me: It was too far for us to see anything.
You: We didn't see any damage, because the explosion didn't do any damage.

That is circular reasoning. Your argument starts and ends with itself.
You said that the planet was too far away. I said that this cannot be the case, since we see the giant crack just fine in Megaton Punch, so it must be a result of no damage being done to the planet in the first place.
The same magic pink energy was shown hurting Dedede in the same game.
Was it the same explosion?
Kirby squishes up into any space he's in, so Kirby would become as small as the crack.
He's not in the crack yet. He squishes into any space he's in, but he has to be put in there first.
Oh.

The fireball would probably hit Bowser's body then before Kirby reappears, seeing as the entire teleport takes about five seconds.
And Bowser shoots more.
See below.

Two energy attacks often cancel each other out.
If you throw two burning logs at each other, they won't cancel out.
Tumbling and shock don't prevent one from moving, though.
They prevent Kirby from moving in the games.
How would noticing the curve help Bowser at all (especially since he can't move quick enough to do anything)?
Not much; just saying that Kirby would have to be constantly turning for this to work.
Then that's what I meant.
If he tried to fly into the holes, he'd be moving at Mach 5, and he'd succeed because of it.
If anything, high speeds would just make it tougher to control.
Kirby can launch things off into space (proved by encounters with Hardy, Octagon, and Marx). Launching a rocket into space takes 7.2 million pounds of force. Those villains are a lot smaller and lighter than a rocket, so that would decrease the required force quite a bit, but we would still get at least thousands of pounds of force (with gravitational pull in mind). Can Giga Bowser survive something like that?
Do you have video of these encounters?
No, but it protects against anything that causes damage. The fireball causes damage (it kills), so Stone would work against it.
That's a no-limits fallacy.
Neither of those account for Kirby being in the air.
The Cape Feather does.
In the long run, I don't see Mario surviving or dodging two Mach 5 attacks from Jet Kirby. Unless he's using Starman or Mega Mushroom, but Kirby would wait until after those wear off. Other invincibility items can't be activated in time.
Mario activates the Starman/Mega Mushroom once Kirby starts flying at him, and Kirby crashes into him, taking damage and likely losing the Jet ability.
True, but either of those could easily be waited out by Mewtwo taking flight.
Cape Feather, Wing Cap, etc would counter this.
Also, neither item protects against a crushing wall, so a vastly superior island beam should work against them.
Prove that the island beam has more force.
Nigh flat, like the crack.
Here's a little experiment we could do. Take an image of small Kirby crouching, calculate how tall he is based on that image, find an object of a similar thickness, and try to squeeze it through a near-nonexistent crack (say, underneath a piece of furniture that's flat to the ground).
The artwork is just what someone wants something to look like. It isn't meant for telling things about something.
In that case, we can't say that Kirby is pink, since artwork tells us nothing.
Is spaghettification caused by the force of a black hole?
Yes.
And launched.
Not by Kirby.
Again, slingshot action, or moment of suspense.
A slingshot pulls back and then forwards, not sideways and then up. A moment of suspense doesn't explain the sudden change in direction.
The Lumas turn into the galaxies, containing black holes.
Right, so they turn into black holes.
They don't use them for anything.
They could here.
Allow me to provide some counterexamples.
  • Thunder and Twister can both hit Pokemon using Fly. Logic.
  • Sunny Day raises the Special Attack of Pokemon with Solar Power. Logic.
  • Bug Bite can be used to eat items. Logic.
  • Entrainment doesn't affect a Pokemon with Imposter. Logic.
  • Electrify, when used on Freeze-Dry, doesn't affect its ability to hit a water Pokemon. Logic.
You said that Pokemon is always logical, so illogical things cannot happen. I provided one example of an illogical occurence in Pokemon, and one positive is enough to disprove a universal negative.
Also, how is ice being weak to steel illogical?
There doesn't seem to be a logical reason, unless you're aware of one that I'm not.
Magikarp using Splash is because Water-type Pokemon often generate water.
There's no water in the animation.
Because it isn't a part of the main story, so it doesn't progress that story.
What makes them separate in the first place?
That didn't squish up when the guy smacked it, so it doesn't have the same properties as Kirby.
Kirby doesn't squish up when slapped either.
Kirby can alternate his twirling. This would make Sonic confused, since he's only used to spinning in one direction. Eventually, he explodes.
Sonic can spin through loop-de-loops, corkscrews, you name it without getting dizzy at all, so a bit of spinning in two directions shouldn't pose too much of a problem. It might give him a headache, but that's probably it.
Sonic using Yellow Drill is affected by gravity, so he'd just fall.
He's underground.
So Sonic wins against Kirby regardless of the other arguments by virtue of time freezing.
Does he ever run at high speeds while standing on top of the Extreme Gear?
No, but I don't see how this is relevant.
If he wants to keep the Extreme Gear moving while he charges, he'd have to move forward.
He never has to.
After starting the ride, how would he move to the front and charge? Without delay or falling off?
He doesn't have to move to the front.
What inaccuracies?
A Duracell battery using love and courage, a 1kg training weight being a doomsday weapon, and a regular knife cutting through time and space.
If he doesn't recover, the effects won't lessen as quickly.
Wouldn't that mean he's not stressed? If I'm not mistaken, stress can cause insomnia.
This isn't stated, it's just an assumption on my part. He could very well have insomnia, though.
They'd get on Olimar, and the bullets would shoot them instead of Olimar.
Prove that the Pikmin would stop the bullets.
Olimar has a lot of Pikmin, they'd be everywhere.
They could spread out over time, but they can't get to places in an instant.
Olimar isn't insane though.
Then why would he write about something that doesn't exist and claim that he saw it? Well, I suppose deceptive marketing is the more likely explanation.
You: The Dimensional Slicer doesn't cut through space and time.
Me: Olimar observed that it did.
You: Olimar is insane, he doesn't make correct observations.
Me: Olimar isn't insane.
You: He got stress and insanity from fighting monsters.
Me: The monsters are gone, so he lost the insanity.
You: And then he goes insane again; he claims that a normal knife can slice through dimensions, in a game where no other dimension slicing exists.

Your argument begins and ends with itself, so it's circular reasoning.
I'm saying that he goes insane because he's on that planet again, which results in the claim. An argument starting and ending with the same thing isn't circular reasoning. "Cars can go quickly because their engine propels them forwards, so they can go quickly" isn't a circular argument.
He deals with all of those too.
Leading to his condition.
You were saying that the King of Bugs' description is a different kind of insanity. It isn't. Olimar can tell what's crazy and what isn't.
"Crazy" in Olimar's case is insanity, a mental condition. "Crazy" in the description's case is a silly thought, a ridiculous idea. Even still, Louie controlling the King of Bugs isn't a silly idea; it has quite a bit of supporting evidence.
After all that "agony, fear, and pain", there's triumph. They both come in the same amount.
When Olimar writes the description (aboard his ship after a day on the planet's surface), he hasn't had that triumph in a major amount; he was on PNF-404 all day.
Olimar doesn't feel this feeling though, because he's being helped.
He can't defend himself without help, the definition of helplessness.
It actually does. Read Olimar's journal notes, he expresses love in them.
How is that a result of the battery?
Gameplay says that the Chateau Romani freezes time. Are we going to allow that?
No, because it's a gameplay mechanic.
Doesn't look like it to me.
It does to me, at least when the mouth is at its widest.
Laser Kirby's Big Laser Blast passes through walls and is long-ranged, so moving the forcefield won't stop it. Also, it counts as two hits, so it would OHKO Rosalina.
Invincibility item.
Starman is gone too.
When did that happen?
The black hole would suck up Rosalina, and no one can control where the black holes go anyways.
Rosalina would simply keep her distance. The Luma turning into the black hole (and possibly the galaxy/planetoid around it) could control its flight path.
Did Rosalina actually create that?
It would appear so.
Not by methods that will actually work.
Why wouldn't they work?
Swords can be removed from their sheaths by strong winds, and the Blue Tornado consists of strong winds. Therefore, the Blue Tornado can remove swords from their sheaths.
But are the enemies knocked back? That's what I'm wondering.
We don't get to see if they are. Either way, causing something to explode requires moving them in some way or another (i.e. denting/breaking the metal).
No, but doesn't Blue Tornado do damage?
Not that I know of.
Oops, meant to just say "Super Sonic."
If the explosion doesn't move anything, there's no movement.
See above.
He chooses to fight in a more ferocious way.
Because he has the means to do so.
That's not what I'm talking about. Regular Sonic doesn't have resistance to the Darksphere.
He resists Dark Gaia's influences on his mind, and the Darksphere relies on influencing minds.
Never, he's gone nigh flat on his own. The crack lets him go completely flat.
So, Kirby can go completely flat by standing next to a crack, or...?
How would that guy know anything about air?
I just thought he said it well, so I quoted him.
See 0:25.
That's not Chaos Control. In fact, it seems like a glitch.
The Gunship would block the Power Bomb from hitting Kirby.
Samus could simply drop it outside the gunship. Still, I don't see how it would block the Power Bomb.
Yes, it includes anything of any force.
Prove it.
The Mega Mushroom only lasts about twenty seconds. Any character who can run, fly, or teleport would be able to avoid it. There are also some durable characters that Mario wouldn't be able to harm that much.
Of course.
Also, Mega Mario can still be hurt by strong attacks, so characters like Shulk or Ness can still harm Mario.
When is Mega Mario harmed?
Prove it.
Duracell batteries don't create love.
Looks like no Ontological Inertia in effect to me ( http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/NoOntologicalInertia ).
How so? Either way, this is irrelevant to the force of the explosion.
No limits fallacy! Even the most potent wind tombs can’t disarm Marth, the only way to disarm a combatant in the Fire Emblem series is with the Disarm skill.
Do said wind tomes disarm targets at all, and do they consist of strong winds similar to the Blue Tornado?
 

Nerdicon

Smash Journeyman
Joined
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Messages
339
Location
Planet Pop-Star
The Arena was designed to make an equal playing field for all combatants, but is it really as fair as it was intended to be? Currently (unless something changed while I was gone) the arena is a 10x10x10 cube surrounded by a 15x15x15 cube of unbreakable material. Everything in between the walls and unbreakable material is concrete. Nothing else has really been stated so I will continue my analysis

First off is the shape of the arena which is already extremely flawed. A cube has corners, and corners are extremely exploitable. Take for example Hypernova Kirby, he creates a funnel shaped vortex that sucks in nearby objects. This is already a powerful technique, but what if it is used in a corner? Then Kirby's only previous blind spot, his back, is protected leaving him practically invincible to all methods of attack. All options are covered. Kirby's not the only example but he's definitely the most powerful one. Therefore I propose that the arena should be a cylinder like the old Roman coliseums. This way there are no places to hide or to easily defend. This should be 10 miles in diameter and 10 miles high.

Another big issue is lighting, yes lighting. Pretty much none of the combatants have night vision, the only one that comes to mind is Samus who can use her thermal visor. Not to mention that Ganondorf can become invincible in darkness, to everything. As such I propose a system of floodlights made of a transparent material harder than diamond to cover the ceiling. Keep in mind these can still be destroyed or covered up, just not as easily as say a few torches or something.

A commonly disputed topic is where the fighters should start. Should it be a couple meters or miles? Should it vary based on character match-up or not? In my personal opinion the fighters should start at around 10 meters apart. A lot of characters can't cover that much ground quickly *cough*Mega Man*cough* so they need to start pretty close. On a side note the character should be given a short countdown before the fighting starts to take in their surroundings, about 10 seconds should suffice.

A few miscellaneous things for those who care, the arena is filled with a gas that aids life for all characters (so Olimar won't die of oxygen poisoning). Unless stated otherwise, fires won't really sustain in the environment due to the concrete not being too flammable. 60 miles beyond the unbreakable walls there is a void that causes instant death to whoever enters regardless of invincibility, this is a secret to the fighters so unless someone can see through the walls and recognize the void, it will fulfill it's goal of only catching teleporters.

Now some interesting strategies that can come about in this arena
  • A general one is to use the concrete to attack with, it's a very weak material to some of these characters. It's excellent for crushing opponents
  • :4samus::4ganondorf:Taking out the lights is beneficial for both characters. Samus can still see most characters and attack them while they can't see her, and Ganon becomes invincible
  • :rosalina:Putting in a large planetoid would dramatically increase the air pressure causing more air resistance and friction
  • etc
While it's still not completely unbiased, the arena I feel would benefit from these small changes. Not to mention the possibilities for the smarter combatants. I wish you all happy debating!


This was way too long in the making. Curse you school!
 

Crystanium

Smash Hero
Joined
Apr 28, 2008
Messages
5,921
Location
California
Is spaghettification caused by the force of a black hole?
Yes. Stellar black holes are more destructive than supermassive black holes on the basis stellar black holes have a higher average density that supermassive black holes. In other words, approach the event horizon of a stellar black hole and spaghettification will occur, due to the tidal forces. Enter a supermassive black hole and spaghettification won't begin until you're in its singularity.

Okay. Well, Kirby would be durable enough to withstand the beams anyways. He has taken planetary attacks without dying.
If you're talking about what I think you're talking about, that doesn't look very destructive. It ended as a result of Kirby firing back the beam that Queen Sectonia shot. If the destruction was planetary, then Popstar would have not gone unscathed. It looks more like whatever it was that was gripped around Popstar exploded, releasing some kind of pink magic and flower petals, resulting in a new stalk.

Good, so we are working with the more sensible version of Samus. The difference between the two is a factor of 1000 times in regards to strength thanks to Zebes gravity being a lot more realistic for its size. Was that calc where Samus throws the lava monster based on a normal or 1000X gravity world?
The calculation involving Vorash was under a 9.81 m/s^2 gravitational acceleration, or 1 g.

@Dryn Do you want to be the go to source for Samus and/or Zero Suit Samus.
Sure.
 
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Reckless Godwin 2.0

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Mar 23, 2015
Messages
89
Location
Philadelphia, PA
Do said wind tomes disarm targets at all, and do they consist of strong winds similar to the Blue Tornado?
No the only special property of wind tomes is they inflict bonus damage on flyers.

The A and S rank tomes are up in the category of strong winds although they may be mixed with ice as well in the case of Fimbulvetr and Rexcalibur:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pWgm5tgpybg for Fimbulvetr (FE8/GBA).
https://youtu.be/DGwWWL8Orc4?list=PL4DE3B321F3EB9055&t=493 Tornado at 8:13-8:21 (FE9/Gamecube).
https://youtu.be/SXb5moPCWYY?t=199 Tornado at 3:19-3:25, Rexcalibur at 3:25-3:36 (FE10/Wii).

@ ShadowLBlue ShadowLBlue You think you can get me a link showing comparable wind tomes in Awakening?

It’s good to see you use the dumbbell from Pikmin 2, hopefully that will end that tangent.

The Arena was designed to make an equal playing field for all combatants, but is it really as fair as it was intended to be? Currently (unless something changed while I was gone) the arena is a 10x10x10 cube surrounded by a 15x15x15 cube of unbreakable material. Everything in between the walls and unbreakable material is concrete. Nothing else has really been stated so I will continue my analysis

First off is the shape of the arena which is already extremely flawed. A cube has corners, and corners are extremely exploitable. Take for example Hypernova Kirby, he creates a funnel shaped vortex that sucks in nearby objects. This is already a powerful technique, but what if it is used in a corner? Then Kirby's only previous blind spot, his back, is protected leaving him practically invincible to all methods of attack. All options are covered. Kirby's not the only example but he's definitely the most powerful one. Therefore I propose that the arena should be a cylinder like the old Roman coliseums. This way there are no places to hide or to easily defend. This should be 10 miles in diameter and 10 miles high.

Another big issue is lighting, yes lighting. Pretty much none of the combatants have night vision, the only one that comes to mind is Samus who can use her thermal visor. Not to mention that Ganondorf can become invincible in darkness, to everything. As such I propose a system of floodlights made of a transparent material harder than diamond to cover the ceiling. Keep in mind these can still be destroyed or covered up, just not as easily as say a few torches or something.

A commonly disputed topic is where the fighters should start. Should it be a couple meters or miles? Should it vary based on character match-up or not? In my personal opinion the fighters should start at around 10 meters apart. A lot of characters can't cover that much ground quickly *cough*Mega Man*cough* so they need to start pretty close. On a side note the character should be given a short countdown before the fighting starts to take in their surroundings, about 10 seconds should suffice.

A few miscellaneous things for those who care, the arena is filled with a gas that aids life for all characters (so Olimar won't die of oxygen poisoning). Unless stated otherwise, fires won't really sustain in the environment due to the concrete not being too flammable. 60 miles beyond the unbreakable walls there is a void that causes instant death to whoever enters regardless of invincibility, this is a secret to the fighters so unless someone can see through the walls and recognize the void, it will fulfill it's goal of only catching teleporters.

Now some interesting strategies that can come about in this arena
  • A general one is to use the concrete to attack with, it's a very weak material to some of these characters. It's excellent for crushing opponents
  • :4samus::4ganondorf:Taking out the lights is beneficial for both characters. Samus can still see most characters and attack them while they can't see her, and Ganon becomes invincible
  • :rosalina:Putting in a large planetoid would dramatically increase the air pressure causing more air resistance and friction
  • etc
While it's still not completely unbiased, the arena I feel would benefit from these small changes. Not to mention the possibilities for the smarter combatants. I wish you all happy debating!


This was way too long in the making. Curse you school!
So your going to put Ether in for Shulk?

Agreed schools are a terrible waste of time and money.

The calculation involving Vorash was under a 9.81 m/s^2 gravitational acceleration, or 1 g.

Sure.
Understood, no complaints from me.

Ok, It’s Dryn time.
 
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Crystanium

Smash Hero
Joined
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Messages
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Location
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When I always do match-ups, I always think of the location as a limitless terrain and a limitless sky. Open fields aren't beneficial to all characters, though. It would be difficult to come up with terrains that balanced match-ups. For example, Link might benefit being in a forest. He's not the fastest, but against fast characters with projectiles, they'd be limited.
 

Lenrap

Smash Rookie
Joined
Sep 24, 2014
Messages
24
I'm not sure anyone has challenged Duck Hunt's godly presence, so Duck Hunt op confirmed?
 

Diddy Kong

Smash Obsessed
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Messages
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Switch FC
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You could ask me question regarding the Kongs. :4dk::4diddy:

And I guess also Ike. :4myfriends:

All others I think can be represented well on their own. But I'm also interessted in how high Mewtwo and Ness are going to rank. :4mewtwo::4ness:

Others I have slight interesst in are Marth and Lucas. :4marth::4lucas: Maybe Roy to. :roypm:

But yeah, the Kongs are best represented by me I'd think.
 

Crystanium

Smash Hero
Joined
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Messages
5,921
Location
California
You could ask me question regarding the Kongs. :4dk::4diddy:
I was going to say I could also be asked about Donkey and Diddy Kong as well. I've played DKC, DKC2, DKC3, DK64, and DKCR. I'm more knowledgeable about the DKC series, though. It's been a long time since I've played DK64. I also thought Pit would be another character I could be asked about. The only Kid Icarus game I haven't played is Kid Icarus: Of Myths and Monsters for the Game Boy.
 

Reckless Godwin 2.0

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Mar 23, 2015
Messages
89
Location
Philadelphia, PA
When I always do match-ups, I always think of the location as a limitless terrain and a limitless sky. Open fields aren't beneficial to all characters, though. It would be difficult to come up with terrains that balanced match-ups. For example, Link might benefit being in a forest. He's not the fastest, but against fast characters with projectiles, they'd be limited.
What would be a balanced field for Snake (although he does have the stealth camouflage device).

You could ask me question regarding the Kongs. :4dk::4diddy:

And I guess also Ike. :4myfriends:

All others I think can be represented well on their own. But I'm also interested in how high Mewtwo and Ness are going to rank. :4mewtwo::4ness:

Others I have slight interest in are Marth and Lucas. :4marth::4lucas: Maybe Roy to. :roypm:

But yeah, the Kongs are best represented by me I'd think.
I don’t know… how can I be sure you won’t go to town with the knocking the moon out of orbit feat considering hitting a planetary object is far easier than hitting an enemy that is actively evading you? I’d rather trust Dryn on this one.

What experience do you have with Ike and his world?

I know Ness would beat Lucas on statistics, PK variety and equipment alone.
Roy is either at the bottom of the Fire Emblem cast or above Marth if he can get past the Darksphere.

I was going to say I could also be asked about Donkey and Diddy Kong as well. I've played DKC, DKC2, DKC3, DK64, and DKCR. I'm more knowledgeable about the DKC series, though. It's been a long time since I've played DK64. I also thought Pit would be another character I could be asked about. The only Kid Icarus game I haven't played is Kid Icarus: Of Myths and Monsters for the Game Boy.
Ok you can have the Kongs.
The GameBoy installment of the Kid Icarus series seems to be a questionable part of canon and your knowledge of Uprising will prove valuable. You can have the Kid Icarus cast.



Besides Mario stomps and spins, what other attacks has Rosalina’s force field defeated?

If Pokemon can have more than 4 moves does that mean the Fire Emblem characters can have more than 5 skills?
 

Kirby Dragons

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Joined
Aug 30, 2014
Messages
5,184
Location
Another Dimension
Kirby Dragons and I are arguing about skills on Marth (he wants to use Einherjar Marth), about Pokemon being unable to dodge innately, the effectiveness of Robin and Lucina’s Lethality.
I'm not arguing about the effectiveness of Lethality.
Does Magic Room apply to equipment as well?
Yep.
It’s not the gas itself but the fumes that would be responsible in a car explosion.
Ah.
Olimar’s company is going to sell these “treasures” and they would have the motive to stretch the truth on their sale pitches. Ex: http://pikmin.wikia.com/wiki/Courage_Reactor They claim a Duracell battery’s energy is made by Love and Courage.
Are they even trying to sell the treasures?
This should prove how terrible Olimar and his ship’s computer are at appraising http://pikmin.wikia.com/wiki/Doomsday_Apparatus#Olimar.27s_Journal .
How does that prove it?
Only Robin and Lucina would have access to Reeking Boxes.
Oh, okay.
@ Kirby Dragons Kirby Dragons I’m putting you down for Bowser Jr., Zelda, Palutena, Marth, the Kirby characters, Mewtwo, Ness, and the Mii Fighters.
Sounds good.
If Pokemon can have more than 4 moves does that mean the Fire Emblem characters can have more than 5 skills?
Yeah, that seems fair.
That's only when he willingly ejects them from his body. Nothing has stolen Rainbow Mario's items when he has them in storage to my knowledge.
A 1-UP can be created for an invincible character, and it can reach them, but still be stolen. No ejection involved.
If Mewtwo can't get items from inside a simple force field, I doubt he'll be able to get them out of hammerspace.
Hammerspace doesn't block things.
That's not specific enough. My generator could be made to be the most powerful generator in the world, and no other generators can lift up houses.
The energy Mewtwo was charging was for planetary storms.
Super Sonic is invulnerable to lasers, and so is a mirror.
A mirror isn't invulnerable to lasers, it sends lasers back.
Do you have an image of the island lasers?

Marx launches off as a result of him being defeated. That's what a trigger is.
You don't have any statements to back this up.
The force of the finger is initiating the launch, but not powering it.
The force of the finger isn't initiating the launch, it's pushing the button.
He doesn't have time; Meta Knight comes in almost instantly.
He has time right after he lifts the hat.
While there is some inconsistency about how fast Shadow ultimately is compared to Sonic, Shadow has admitted that Sonic is the faster of the two of them.[14]
Wait, is Shadow even a clone of Sonic in the first place?
Has Kirby survived an attack of this nature and force before?
Force, yes, and the nature isn't exactly relevant here.
It was very far.
I didn't see any distance, really.
And it puts one's mind into a state of sleep.
Kirby doesn't have a mind, but the Sleep crashing works on him. That proves that this doesn't affect the mind.
Prove it.
The Light Speed Attack can't attack a giant portion of a planet.
You said that the planet was too far away. I said that this cannot be the case, since we see the giant crack just fine in Megaton Punch, so it must be a result of no damage being done to the planet in the first place.
Except we know that the explosion did some damage. The pink energy that the explosion was made of has caused damage in the past, and it launched Kirby and caused him to be scared.
Was it the same explosion?
It wasn't the same explosion, but it was made of the exact same type of energy.
He's not in the crack yet. He squishes into any space he's in, but he has to be put in there first.
He's putting himself in there.
And Bowser shoots more.
Kirby would discard his current ability and just inhale all of the fireballs.
If you throw two burning logs at each other, they won't cancel out.
Burning logs ≠ energy attacks.
They prevent Kirby from moving in the games.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circular_reasoning
Not much; just saying that Kirby would have to be constantly turning for this to work.
Okay.
If anything, high speeds would just make it tougher to control.
Jet Kirby has always controlled it well when moving at maximum charge (highest speeds).
Do you have video of these encounters?
You've seen Marx.
19:20.
20:09.
That's a no-limits fallacy.
Not unless the fireball is more powerful than the attacks Stone has blocked.
The Cape Feather does.
Cape Mario doesn't have that great control over flying. He can only glide.
Mario activates the Starman/Mega Mushroom once Kirby starts flying at him, and Kirby crashes into him, taking damage and likely losing the Jet ability.
A) This would happen after the Starman/Mega Mushroom.
B) Mario can't react to Mach 5 speeds, so no.
Cape Feather, Wing Cap, etc would counter this.
Magic Room.
Prove that the island beam has more force.
Crushing walls can't destroy islands. Island beam can. Therefore, island beam > crushing wall.
Here's a little experiment we could do. Take an image of small Kirby crouching, calculate how tall he is based on that image, find an object of a similar thickness, and try to squeeze it through a near-nonexistent crack (say, underneath a piece of furniture that's flat to the ground).
Mini Kirby is about 1/3 the size (2.666 inches), and his size is halved when ducking, so about 1.333 inches. I will do that with something the same size.
In that case, we can't say that Kirby is pink, since artwork tells us nothing.
A) Nothing in lore/gameplay/cutscenes contradicts this, so he's pink.
B) The artwork doesn't tell us Kirby's pink. The artwork is that he's pink.
Yes.

Yes. Stellar black holes are more destructive than supermassive black holes on the basis stellar black holes have a higher average density that supermassive black holes. In other words, approach the event horizon of a stellar black hole and spaghettification will occur, due to the tidal forces. Enter a supermassive black hole and spaghettification won't begin until you're in its singularity.
In that case, I will agree that the Schwarz' black hole doesn't have as much force as a black hole in real life.
Not by Kirby.
Then why did he launch after hit by Kirby's attack?
A slingshot pulls back and then forwards, not sideways and then up. A moment of suspense doesn't explain the sudden change in direction.
Those still make more sense than Marx launching himself into a planet and killing himself.
Right, so they turn into black holes.
They turn into galaxies, actually. The black holes are just there.
They could here.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circular_reasoning
You said that Pokemon is always logical, so illogical things cannot happen. I provided one example of an illogical occurence in Pokemon, and one positive is enough to disprove a universal negative.
I never said it was always logical, I said it was usually logical. If it's usually logical, that means it's logical more often than it isn't. There's a much greater chance of Pokemon following my logical reasoning, than it following your illogical reasoning.
There doesn't seem to be a logical reason, unless you're aware of one that I'm not.
No logical reason ≠ illogical. There is no logical reason why I would pick up a crumb and crush it, but that doesn't make it illogical.
There's no water in the animation.
Actually, Splash isn't supposed to be a water move anyways.
What makes them separate in the first place?
The fact that the bonus cutscene isn't a part of the story.
Kirby doesn't squish up when slapped either.
No one's slapped him, so we don't know. Furthermore, we've seen Kirby squish when he's dropped. Does a chunk of ballistics gel squish when it's dropped?
Sonic can spin through loop-de-loops, corkscrews, you name it without getting dizzy at all, so a bit of spinning in two directions shouldn't pose too much of a problem. It might give him a headache, but that's probably it.
While he's tending to the headache, Kirby blows him up.
He's underground.
How does that relate to anything?
So Sonic wins against Kirby regardless of the other arguments by virtue of time freezing.
Prove it.
No, but I don't see how this is relevant.

He never has to.

He doesn't have to move to the front.
You said Sonic could charge the Spin Dash on the front of the Extreme Gear to keep it from moving. He'd have to go to the front of the gear to do that.
A Duracell battery using love and courage, a 1kg training weight being a doomsday weapon, and a regular knife cutting through time and space.
I've proven that the battery actually does use love and courage. We can automatically conclude that the weight isn't a weapon, because there's nothing weaponized about it.
If he doesn't recover, the effects won't lessen as quickly.
Why wouldn't he recover?
This isn't stated, it's just an assumption on my part. He could very well have insomnia, though.
I doubt that.
Prove that the Pikmin would stop the bullets.
That was the proof.
They could spread out over time, but they can't get to places in an instant.
Then why would he write about something that doesn't exist and claim that he saw it?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circular_reasoning
Well, I suppose deceptive marketing is the more likely explanation.
He's not using his journal to market things.
I'm saying that he goes insane because he's on that planet again, which results in the claim.
That's not what you said.
An argument starting and ending with the same thing isn't circular reasoning. "Cars can go quickly because their engine propels them forwards, so they can go quickly" isn't a circular argument.
If you try to use your argument as proof, it's circular reasoning. You tried to use your argument as proof for "Olimar goes insane again", so it's circular reasoning.
Leading to his condition.
Yeah, I don't think something he got rid of is going to cause him stress/insanity.
"Crazy" in Olimar's case is insanity, a mental condition. "Crazy" in the description's case is a silly thought, a ridiculous idea.
Insanity would lead to silly thoughts.
Even still, Louie controlling the King of Bugs isn't a silly idea; it has quite a bit of supporting evidence.
Like what?
When Olimar writes the description (aboard his ship after a day on the planet's surface), he hasn't had that triumph in a major amount; he was on PNF-404 all day.
Collecting treasures, which would be success.
He can't defend himself without help, the definition of helplessness.
And he doesn't feel it.
How is that a result of the battery?
The love is only expressed while the battery is around.
No, because it's a gameplay mechanic.
Exactly. Just like the Star Bits not deflecting each other.
It does to me, at least when the mouth is at its widest.
The bits would still deflect each other.
Invincibility item.
Is gone. Try again.
When did that happen?
After a mere eleven seconds, spent by Kirby teleporting around..
Rosalina would simply keep her distance. The Luma turning into the black hole (and possibly the galaxy/planetoid around it) could control its flight path.
Lumas can't control the flight paths of galaxies when they're already transformed.
Why wouldn't they work?
Marth holding the swords in.
Swords can be removed from their sheaths by strong winds, and the Blue Tornado consists of strong winds. Therefore, the Blue Tornado can remove swords from their sheaths.
Marth would simply use his hands to hold in the swords, so they don't fly out.
We don't get to see if they are. Either way, causing something to explode requires moving them in some way or another (i.e. denting/breaking the metal).
You can blow up a bomb without moving it.
Not that I know of.
It flings enemies into the ground, hurting them.
Oops, meant to just say "Super Sonic."
What about Super Sonic?
Because he has the means to do so.
Sonic the Werehog also runs on all fours and howls like a wolf. That seems pretty feral to me.
He resists Dark Gaia's influences on his mind, and the Darksphere relies on influencing minds.
This is likely due to Sonic the Werehog's feral mind.
So, Kirby can go completely flat by standing next to a crack, or...?
No, but he can by slipping through it.
I just thought he said it well, so I quoted him.
The gases float all around you, but they don't get in the way.
That's not Chaos Control. In fact, it seems like a glitch.
Then can you show me a video of using Chaos Control to freeze time?
Samus could simply drop it outside the gunship.
How would she do that without falling? Even if she could, she'd no longer be piloting the ship, and Kirby could fly in the other direction.
Still, I don't see how it would block the Power Bomb.
The Power Bomb's blast isn't intangible.
Prove it.
Reflect Guard/Reflect Force reflect everything in the games, no matter the force. Why would force even be a problem anyways? It's not like the explosion could actually hit Kirby. Everything goes away from him when he's using those moves. Force is irrelevant.
Of course.
I would also like to ask what Mario's actually destroyed with this thing at best. A wall?
When is Mega Mario harmed?
Mega Mario is hurt by Chain Chomps (Super Sluggers), Bullet Bills (Kart Wii), and other invincible characters (both).
Duracell batteries don't create love.
Olimar's journal entry proves that they do.
If you're talking about what I think you're talking about, that doesn't look very destructive. It ended as a result of Kirby firing back the beam that Queen Sectonia shot. If the destruction was planetary, then Popstar would have not gone unscathed. It looks more like whatever it was that was gripped around Popstar exploded, releasing some kind of pink magic and flower petals, resulting in a new stalk.
The explosion was caused by the defeat of Queen Sectonia, not really Kirby's beam. We observe the planet from space, so we don't really see the effects of the blast.

Kirby can also tank attacks from the Master Crown, which has limitless power, and can conquer a universe.
 

Crystanium

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What would be a balanced field for Snake (although he does have the stealth camouflage device).
A balanced field would probably require Snake to play against someone else who would equally gain an advantage from being in a location where the camo could be heavily used, such as a forest, jungle, woods, bog, marsh, or a city. Characters with the ability to detect the presence of another through sight, sound, or odor would remove Snake's advantage.

I don’t know… how can I be sure you won’t go to town with the knocking the moon out of orbit feat considering hitting a planetary object is far easier than hitting an enemy that is actively evading you? I’d rather trust Dryn on this one.
The Moon feat is considered by the majority of those who defend Donkey Kong to be an actual feat, rather than humor. If the Moon smashed into the island as it did, everything would have been destroyed, not just by the Moon's direct contact with the island, but just by the fact that the Moon's mass would affect Earth's gravity in such a devastating way that life would be wiped out. Tidal force comes to mind. Yet, no wave shows up.

That being said, the Moon is exponentially smaller than our own, just barely having a diameter greater than DK Island. Not to mention, from what seems to be volcanic activity, that force would not toss the Moon into the air like that and back into orbit. For that to happen, the Moon would have to be extremely light. I personally think the whole thing was for humor, not an actual strength feat. If physics is ignored for what would happen if the Moon was that close to Earth, then the physics for that feat shall be ignored, as Donkey Kong's physical strength hasn't been explicitly stated. It'd be an outlier if we accepted it anyway.

The explosion was caused by the defeat of Queen Sectonia, not really Kirby's beam. We observe the planet from space, so we don't really see the effects of the blast.
The effects would be on Pop Star, which we can see when Kirby is returning onto the surface.

Kirby can also tank attacks from the Master Crown, which has limitless power, and can conquer a universe.
During game play, I presume, and yet no evidence of Kirby's health being at all any kind of durability.
 
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Munomario777

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Are they even trying to sell the treasures?
How else would they use the treasures to pay off the debt?
How does that prove it?
He calls an ordinary dumbbell heavy artillery.
A 1-UP can be created for an invincible character, and it can reach them, but still be stolen. No ejection involved.
The 1-UP is not in the possession of the character in this case, whereas the power-ups are in this fight.
Hammerspace doesn't block things.
Things aren't usually stolen from it.
The energy Mewtwo was charging was for planetary storms.
Was Mewtwo created to cause planetary storms, and has he been proven to be able to do that?
A mirror isn't invulnerable to lasers, it sends lasers back.
It isn't harmed by them, so yes, it is invulnerable.
How big is the island?
You don't have any statements to back this up.
Google Search said:
Trigger: an event or circumstance that is the cause of a particular action, process, or situation.
The force of the finger isn't initiating the launch, it's pushing the button.
Which initiates the launch.
He has time right after he lifts the hat.
Then why, may I ask, does Kirby not grab onto Meta Knight?
Wait, is Shadow even a clone of Sonic in the first place?
It's likely that he was based on an ancient mural of Super Sonic that appeared in Sonic 3, since they share a similar appearance. Another comparison would be Sonic and Metal Sonic.
Force, yes, and the nature isn't exactly relevant here.
A) Prove that they're equal in force.
B) The nature is relevant. A buzzsaw concentrates its energy and force on a smaller area.
I didn't see any distance, really.
Then try watching the video again. The Badniks are knocked backwards quite a distance.
Kirby doesn't have a mind, but the Sleep crashing works on him. That proves that this doesn't affect the mind.
Wait, Kirby doesn't have a mind? Since when?
The Light Speed Attack can't attack a giant portion of a planet.
And Kirby isn't a giant portion of a planet.
Except we know that the explosion did some damage. The pink energy that the explosion was made of has caused damage in the past, and it launched Kirby and caused him to be scared.

It wasn't the same explosion, but it was made of the exact same type of energy.
Does the other attack destroy the evil plants around the planet?
He's putting himself in there.
How?
Kirby would discard his current ability and just inhale all of the fireballs.
How many can he inhale at once?
Burning logs ≠ energy attacks.
Fire is energy.
How so? I disproved your assertion with examples from the games.
Jet Kirby has always controlled it well when moving at maximum charge (highest speeds).
Was Kirby stated to move at Mach 5 in the anime?
You've seen Marx.
19:20.
That took a while, and it wasn't escape velocity or anything.
I'd expect a tornado to launch a few-feet-high dental assistant into the air.
Not unless the fireball is more powerful than the attacks Stone has blocked.
The fireball is effective against bricks. Kirby is made of stone. It seems like it would be effective.
Cape Mario doesn't have that great control over flying. He can only glide.
1:39.
A) This would happen after the Starman/Mega Mushroom.
B) Mario can't react to Mach 5 speeds, so no.
Kirby would likely go into Jet and ram at the beginning, and Mario would likely use a Mega Mushroom or Starman at the beginning as well.
Magic Room.
What exactly does it affect?
Crushing walls can't destroy islands. Island beam can. Therefore, island beam > crushing wall.
A pair of scissors can cut through cardboard, but a car cannot. Does that mean that the scissors are more powerful than the car? No.
Mini Kirby is about 1/3 the size (2.666 inches), and his size is halved when ducking, so about 1.333 inches. I will do that with something the same size.
Okay, let me know how that works out. I doubt that you'll be able to get even something 1 inch tall into a crack like that.
A) Nothing in lore/gameplay/cutscenes contradicts this, so he's pink.
B) The artwork doesn't tell us Kirby's pink. The artwork is that he's pink.
A) Similarly, nothing from lore/gameplay/cutscenes contradicts the Schwarz not being similar to our black holes.
B) Same goes for the Schwarz artwork.
In that case, I will agree that the Schwarz' black hole doesn't have as much force as a black hole in real life.
Okay, then.
Then why did he launch after hit by Kirby's attack?
Because his health ran out, and that's what happens when his health runs out.
Those still make more sense than Marx launching himself into a planet and killing himself.
They defy physics, even in the Kirby series.
They turn into galaxies, actually. The black holes are just there.
The black holes are part of the galaxies.
How so? I said that since they can turn into black holes, they could use that here for battle.
I never said it was always logical, I said it was usually logical. If it's usually logical, that means it's logical more often than it isn't. There's a much greater chance of Pokemon following my logical reasoning, than it following your illogical reasoning.
A greater chance is not proof, especially when the other side has greater proof.
No logical reason ≠ illogical. There is no logical reason why I would pick up a crumb and crush it, but that doesn't make it illogical.
Really?
Actually, Splash isn't supposed to be a water move anyways.
When why is it even called Splash?
The fact that the bonus cutscene isn't a part of the story.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circular_reasoning
Me: What makes them separate in the first place?
You: The fact that the bonus cutscene isn't a part of the story. (AKA separate)
No one's slapped him, so we don't know.
Many Kirby enemies simply ram into him, which is similar to slapping.
Furthermore, we've seen Kirby squish when he's dropped. Does a chunk of ballistics gel squish when it's dropped?
Not sure, but if it doesn't, this would only make the ballistics gel more durable, no?
While he's tending to the headache, Kirby blows him up.
This is assuming that A) Sonic gets a headache in the first place when he never does in-game and B) Sonic doesn't get away from Kirby/use Chaos Control.
How does that relate to anything?
Kirby's inhale is above Kirby. Sonic is below Kirby.
Prove it.
Kirby cannot do anything while time is frozen.
You said Sonic could charge the Spin Dash on the front of the Extreme Gear to keep it from moving. He'd have to go to the front of the gear to do that.
And then I later said that I was wrong and he doesn't have to be at the front to travel forwards on the EG.
I've proven that the battery actually does use love and courage.
How does Olimar loving his family relate to the battery?
We can automatically conclude that the weight isn't a weapon, because there's nothing weaponized about it.
And we can conclude that the knife doesn't rip through time and space because there's nothing time-and-space-y (?) about it.
Why wouldn't he recover?
He's not going through the recovery that someone would after a concussion, as you said earlier.
I doubt that.
It's a possibility, but it doesn't have that much of an effect on the outcome.
That was the proof.
No, it's an assertion that needs to be proved.
The proof that the Pikmin wouldn't get there in time is the fact that bullets are faster than their appearance in-game.
How is asking why Olimar would say something that's false circular reasoning?
He's not using his journal to market things.
The sales pitch is, "A dimensional cutter that slices through space and time, this is nothing to be trifled with. Good children will know not to play with this item."
That's not what you said.
It's what I've been implying (if I haven't said it). My apologies if it didn't come through right.
If you try to use your argument as proof, it's circular reasoning. You tried to use your argument as proof for "Olimar goes insane again", so it's circular reasoning.
Olimar goes insane again because he's on the planet again, where he previously went insane. In addition to other factors, of course.
Yeah, I don't think something he got rid of is going to cause him stress/insanity.
Does he not fight monsters and go into caves in Pikmin 2?
Insanity would lead to silly thoughts.
And?
Like what?
Read the first paragraph of this page.
Collecting treasures, which would be success.
That success and relief is momentary, whereas the long day on PNF-404 was major.
And he doesn't feel it.
Prove it.
The love is only expressed while the battery is around.
I'm pretty sure that Olimar loved his family before this point. In face, he mentions them throughout Pikmin 1.
Exactly. Just like the Star Bits not deflecting each other.
Or it could be a result of them being composed of energy.
The bits would still deflect each other.
Unless they're some sort of energy.
Is gone. Try again.
Teleportation.
After a mere eleven seconds, spent by Kirby teleporting around.
Rosalina creates a black hole near the spot where Kirby teleported from, and since we've only seen him teleport short distances, he'd likely end up near the black hole and get sucked in and killed.
Lumas can't control the flight paths of galaxies when they're already transformed.
When they're in the "shooting out into space to become a galaxy" they likely can.
Marth holding the swords in.

Marth would simply use his hands to hold in the swords, so they don't fly out.
Sonic's too fast for Marth to react.
You can blow up a bomb without moving it.
The bomb must move some sort of internal mechanism, such as lighting an internal fuse. Either way, Badniks are not meant to explode.
It flings enemies into the ground, hurting them.
So Marth isn't hurt. That doesn't prevent him from getting his swords and shield stolen.
What about Super Sonic?
He's invincible.
Sonic the Werehog also runs on all fours and howls like a wolf. That seems pretty feral to me.
These are a result of his physical transformation. His legs aren't as quick as before, so he runs on all fours to take advantage of his arm strength. Similarly, his voice changed, and it now involves a howl.
This is likely due to Sonic the Werehog's feral mind.
Except his personality etc are intact.
No, but he can by slipping through it.
When does he demonstrate this?
The gases float all around you, but they don't get in the way.
Because they're glad to move out of the way.
Then can you show me a video of using Chaos Control to freeze time?
Sure.
How would she do that without falling?
By standing on top.
Even if she could, she'd no longer be piloting the ship, and Kirby could fly in the other direction.
It has an autopilot.
The Power Bomb's blast isn't intangible.
A) Things can move through it.
B) How is this actually relevant?
Reflect Guard/Reflect Force reflect everything in the games, no matter the force.
And other characters' attacks aren't in Kirby games, and many are more powerful than attacks within.
Why would force even be a problem anyways? It's not like the explosion could actually hit Kirby. Everything goes away from him when he's using those moves. Force is irrelevant.
More force equals more ability to get through.
I would also like to ask what Mario's actually destroyed with this thing at best. A wall?
He can destroy pipes and the like, which no other attacks can do.
Mega Mario is hurt by Chain Chomps (Super Sluggers), Bullet Bills (Kart Wii), and other invincible characters (both).
Mega Mario is invincible to all of these things in the main series games.
Olimar's journal entry proves that they do.
Olimar's journal entry is an assertion, and assertions need to be proven.
The explosion was caused by the defeat of Queen Sectonia, not really Kirby's beam. We observe the planet from space, so we don't really see the effects of the blast.
We see the Megaton Punch Championships from space, and yet we see the damage the punches cause.
Kirby can also tank attacks from the Master Crown, which has limitless power, and can conquer a universe.
Does the attack specifically have limitless power, or rather, is it stated to?
 
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Reckless Godwin 2.0

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Nothing that I can think of, although considering how the Ground Pound can crush multiple layers of rock/bricks, that is a rather impressive feat.
So it seems like her force field will stop physical/kinetic type attacks but won’t stop lasers or sound based ones and has no feats against energy/special/magic type attacks. That is still a significant part of the cast that could pierce her force field.

Are they even trying to sell the treasures?

How does that prove it?

Yeah, that seems fair.
How else are they going to pay off the company’s debt, which is the whole reason to return to the Pikmin planet.

Because a dumbbell isn’t an artillery piece.

It will take me a while to compile a list of the useful skills for Ike, Robin and Lucina.

That 1st Kirby video was disturbing. How could they show a sheep massacre like that in a kids show!?

A balanced field would probably require Snake to play against someone else who would equally gain an advantage from being in a location where the camo could be heavily used, such as a forest, jungle, woods, bog, marsh, or a city. Characters with the ability to detect the presence of another through sight, sound, or odor would remove Snake's advantage.

The Moon feat is considered by the majority of those who defend Donkey Kong to be an actual feat, rather than humor. If the Moon smashed into the island as it did, everything would have been destroyed, not just by the Moon's direct contact with the island, but just by the fact that the Moon's mass would affect Earth's gravity in such a devastating way that life would be wiped out. Tidal force comes to mind. Yet, no wave shows up.

That being said, the Moon is exponentially smaller than our own, just barely having a diameter greater than DK Island. Not to mention, from what seems to be volcanic activity, that force would not toss the Moon into the air like that and back into orbit. For that to happen, the Moon would have to be extremely light. I personally think the whole thing was for humor, not an actual strength feat. If physics is ignored for what would happen if the Moon was that close to Earth, then the physics for that feat shall be ignored, as Donkey Kong's physical strength hasn't been explicitly stated. It'd be an outlier if we accepted it anyway.
The Stealth Camouflage device of MGS1 bends light in a way that renders it’s user invisible, so sight wouldn’t be all that useful against it and not many characters will have good enough hearing or smell to detect him. The Star Fox characters won’t be able to smell him when they are in their vehicles.

You might have a hard time convincing Diddy Kong with that statement but I understand where your coming from. Do you have a link for the moon feat?

Cape Mario would have difficulty evading the attacks that can reach him thanks to his inability to change direction and he can’t fight back at all when airborne because his hands are busy with the gliding.



Do we know how powerful Captain Falcon’s sidearm is?
Can the Blue Falcon be evaded by ducking under it?
 

Munomario777

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So it seems like her force field will stop physical/kinetic type attacks but won’t stop lasers or sound based ones and has no feats against energy/special/magic type attacks. That is still a significant part of the cast that could pierce her force field.
Mhm.
You might have a hard time convincing Diddy Kong with that statement but I understand where your coming from. Do you have a link for the moon feat?
With a bit of Falcon flair to boot. :p
Cape Mario would have difficulty evading the attacks that can reach him thanks to his inability to change direction and he can’t fight back at all when airborne because his hands are busy with the gliding.
If you look at the beginning, he can fly upwards for a while. This allows him to have better control (IIRC) and his hands are also free.
Can the Blue Falcon be evaded by ducking under it?
It seems rather low to the ground, but it's possible.
 

Crystanium

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The Stealth Camouflage device of MGS1 bends light in a way that renders it’s user invisible, so sight wouldn’t be all that useful against it and not many characters will have good enough hearing or smell to detect him. The Star Fox characters won’t be able to smell him when they are in their vehicles.
I was thinking Link's lens of truth would reveal Snake. Samus' visors would allow her to track Snake through body heat (thermal visor), his skeleton (x-ray visor), and even "see" Snake by the sound he makes (echo visor). This visor slightly enhances Samus' hearing as well.

You might have a hard time convincing Diddy Kong with that statement but I understand where your coming from. Do you have a link for the moon feat?
I don't think I have to. Even if the issues that come with the Moon being present on Earth is dismissed, there's no arguing about the size of the Moon. From what I recall, I think I measured the Moon to be 333 pixels and Donkey Kong was only 1 pixel. You can't see Donkey Kong when the video pans out to show the entire moon, so yeah. Anyway, if we go with the low-end height of an adult gorilla (1.6764 m.), the Moon would have a diameter of 558.2412 meters. This would mean the volume would be 91,088,652.88 m^3.

The moon is rather light. I base this off the fact that a volcano propelled it back to orbit. Or maybe it's not light at all. Maybe Earth's gravitational acceleration in the Donkey Kong universe is incredibly low. I will assume the Moon has a density of helium, or 147 kg/m^3. This isn't the same as the Moon being made of helium. If the Moon's density is comparable to helium, then the Moon's mass would be 13,390,031,974 kg., which would be 0.000000000018228% of our moon's mass.

Since I have the mass and the diameter, I could find out its surface gravity, which ends up being 1.147×10^-5 m/s^2. When Donkey Kong was launched into the air and he passed the moon, he should have kept going because the acceleration is so weak to pull him back down. Yet, he falls back down as if he's on Earth, rather than slowing down. These inconsistencies make the feat rather dubious based on physics alone, and the cut-scene is rather comedic. Nevertheless, throughout DKCR, after defeating bosses, Donkey Kong is able to punch those tiki creatures out of orbit, though I think they'd actually splatter upon impact. This should be further evinced by the multiple punches DK can perform before causing those tiki creatures to fly out of orbit.

Simply put, this feat is a mess.
 
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Nerdicon

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Nothing that I can think of, although considering how the Ground Pound can crush multiple layers of rock/bricks, that is a rather impressive feat.
Multiple layers of cracked stones and bricks.
I would consider myself the resident Kirby and Pokémon expert. I'm also fairly versed in Kid Icarus.
So it seems like her force field will stop physical/kinetic type attacks but won’t stop lasers or sound based ones and has no feats against energy/special/magic type attacks. That is still a significant part of the cast that could pierce her force field.
I thought I already established that.
That 1st Kirby video was disturbing. How could they show a sheep massacre like that in a kids show!?
Japan?:lol:

Can the Blue Falcon be evaded by ducking under it?
Probably, considering Kirby would be about 2.6 inches tall when crouching.

Just want to remind everyone that Sonic has never been adept enough with chaos control to freeze time, and the only way he can freeze time is via gathering 60 rings...
And that no one actually agreed to any of the arena suggestions I made...
And that the various spheres are negated when placed into the Fire Emblem...
And that Hypernova is pretty much invincible from frontal assault so if Kirby put a prism shield or mirror clone or something behind him he'd have near perfect coverage...
etc
 

Munomario777

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Multiple layers of cracked stones and bricks.
Still rather impressive.
Just want to remind everyone that Sonic has never been adept enough with chaos control to freeze time, and the only way he can freeze time is via gathering 60 rings...
It's the same technique. Not to mention that he can initiate time travel without Shadow being present (he performs it with Silver).
And that no one actually agreed to any of the arena suggestions I made...
I agree with them.
And that Hypernova is pretty much invincible from frontal assault so if Kirby put a prism shield or mirror clone or something behind him he'd have near perfect coverage...
etc
Doesn't Kirby have to hold the Prism Shield above his head for it to work?

What can Simirror block, and does he cover Kirby entirely?
 

Crystanium

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Here's my thoughts on the arena. I am personally going to refer to it as the "Chaos Chamber". Three reasons. 1. I thought of Dracula's castle, which Alucard tells Maria in Symphony of the Night that the castle is "a creature of Chaos", so it's never the same. 2. "Chamber" is a large room. 3. I like alliterations. Because physics has made me grow fond of kilometers, the chamber will be ten kilometers long, ten kilometers wide, and ten kilometers tall, not miles.

The chamber is a magical, transparent barrier, so it allows for light and air to enter and leave the chamber. Participants are unable to escape until there is a loser, either by incapacitatation, battlefield removal, or death. Battlefield removal will only involve sending the opponent to another dimension. Characters who can leave dimensions on their own accord cannot do this if it's meant to serve as a way to form a strategy, or else they are automatically disqualified. They have their respective regions to do this.

The Chaos Chamber will have three kilometers on all sides dedicated to each character of opposite ends. The transitional region will be four kilometers on all sides in the center. Should either character avoid entering the transitional region where they can do battle, the transitional region will expand a kilometer every ten minutes, which will force both characters to leave their familiar region, which we may call "safe zones". Once in the transitional region, both have to wait at least five minutes before returning to their safe zone. This helps prevent stalling and abuse of the system.

Give me your thoughts, everyone.
 
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Munomario777

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@Dryn

I do like the idea for the barrier, but I'm not sure on it yet. I don't like the idea of having "safe zones", since this is supposed to be a one-on-one fight to the death, and having areas where you can't actually fight doesn't seem right.
 

Reckless Godwin 2.0

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With a bit of Falcon flair to boot. :p

It seems rather low to the ground, but it's possible.
What the hell just happened? Was that the Japanese version? How did he get above the moon in the 1st place.

(lies down, sticks sharp weapon up in the air and lets the Blue Falcon bisect itself)

Tunneling Pokemon might be able to dig traps for the Blue Falcon as well.

I was thinking Link's lens of truth would reveal Snake. Samus' visors would allow her to track Snake through body heat (thermal visor), his skeleton (x-ray visor), and even "see" Snake by the sound he makes (echo visor). This visor slightly enhances Samus' hearing as well.



I don't think I have to. Even if the issues that come with the Moon being present on Earth is dismissed, there's no arguing about the size of the Moon. From what I recall, I think I measured the Moon to be 333 pixels and Donkey Kong was only 1 pixel. You can't see Donkey Kong when the video pans out to show the entire moon, so yeah. Anyway, if we go with the low-end height of an adult gorilla (1.6764 m.), the Moon would have a diameter of 558.2412 meters. This would mean the volume would be 91,088,652.88 m^3.

The moon is rather light. I base this off the fact that a volcano propelled it back to orbit. Or maybe it's not light at all. Maybe Earth's gravitational acceleration in the Donkey Kong universe is incredibly low. I will assume the Moon has a density of helium, or 147 kg/m^3. This isn't the same as the Moon being made of helium. If the Moon's density is comparable to helium, then the Moon's mass would be 13,390,031,974 kg., which would be 0.000000000018228% of our moon's mass.

Since I have the mass and the diameter, I could find out its surface gravity, which ends up being 1.147×10^-5 m/s^2. When Donkey Kong was launched into the air and he passed the moon, he should have kept going because the acceleration is so weak to pull him back down. Yet, he falls back down as if he's on Earth, rather than slowing down. These inconsistencies make the feat rather dubious based on physics alone, and the cut-scene is rather comedic. Nevertheless, throughout DKCR, after defeating bosses, Donkey Kong is able to punch those tiki creatures out of orbit, though I think they'd actually splatter upon impact. This should be further evinced by the multiple punches DK can perform before causing those tiki creatures to fly out of orbit.

Simply put, this feat is a mess.
Good points but Link can’t use the lens of truth and fight competently at the same time unless he duct tapes it to his face (sort of like that useful Doom 3 mod, the one that tapes the flashlight to the guns) and he would still have his peripheral vision be useless.

The moon feat is definitely weird.

I would consider myself the resident Kirby and Pokémon expert. I'm also fairly versed in Kid Icarus.

I thought I already established that.

Japan?:lol:

Probably, considering Kirby would be about 2.6 inches tall when crouching.

And that no one actually agreed to any of the arena suggestions I made...
And that the various spheres are negated when placed into the Fire Emblem...
And that Hypernova is pretty much invincible from frontal assault so if Kirby put a prism shield or mirror clone or something behind him he'd have near perfect coverage...
etc
you want me to put you down for those?

The way you described her she sounded invincible.

Lol, because it‘s true.

So your saying Kirby and Olimar don’t have to worry about being run over. I’d still like to get the ground clearance stat on the Blue Falcon.
You do realize that a mere thief was able to remove them from the shield in the 1st place right?
You do know that Sonic can come from below in a drill form and the Fire Emblem mages can cause minor eruptions and tornados without having to use projectiles right?

Sorry about that. Your ideas sound good but Olimar has a spacesuit so you don’t have to worry about him. I’m not sure the Pokemon will be able to “dig” through concrete.

It's the same technique. Not to mention that he can initiate time travel without Shadow being present (he performs it with Silver).
There you go with confusing time travel with time stoppage again (sighs).

@Dryn I agree with Munomario777’s statement.



Anyone who wants to use a Reeking Box must remember that they may get anywhere between 6 and 24 Risen units and they would be hostile to both sides. Details here http://fireemblem.wikia.com/wiki/Reeking_Box .

Does Ike get to use the Path of Radiance or the Radiant Dawn version of the skills when they are slightly different? Would we use the better version or the more recent version (Radiant Dawn)? An example would be Vantage which lets you get the 1st blow in combat, and the Radiant Dawn version activation rate would equal Ike’s speed stat while the Path of Radiance version has a higher 100% activation rate.

I hope to give a more detailed analysis on the Fire Emblem characters soon.
 

Crystanium

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@Dryn

I do like the idea for the barrier, but I'm not sure on it yet. I don't like the idea of having "safe zones", since this is supposed to be a one-on-one fight to the death, and having areas where you can't actually fight doesn't seem right.
I could always correct it. As long as an opponent is in another opponent's safe zone, then the Chaos Chamber won't do anything to alter it. I was simply proposing an idea where combatants would have to fight. If they avoided fighting, the chamber would force them to battle. Characters who have been in different terrains will especially benefit from this, but I'm thinking they should be placed in what they're commonly seen in.
 
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Munomario777

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What the hell just happened? Was that the Japanese version? How did he get above the moon in the 1st place.
That's a version edited to have the audio from the famous "Falcon Punch" scene in the F-Zero anime. :p Here's the regular version, at about 4:18:
(lies down, sticks sharp weapon up in the air and lets the Blue Falcon bisect itself)
Depends on A) the reaction time of the character and B) the Blue Falcon's durability.
Tunneling Pokemon might be able to dig traps for the Blue Falcon as well.
How would a pothole work on a hovering car?
There you go with confusing time travel with time stoppage again (sighs).
They're both time manipulation. If Sonic isn't good enough at Chaos Control to freeze time, then how exactly can he time travel? Not to mention that he has stopped time before in SA2, except without using Chaos Control.
I could always correct it. As long as an opponent is in another opponent's safe zone, then the Chaos Chamber won't do anything to alter it. I was simply proposing an idea where combatants would have to fight. If they avoided fighting, the chamber would force them to battle. Characters who have been in different terrains will especially benefit from this, but I'm thinking they should be placed in what they're commonly seen in.
So, what's the point of the safe zones then? If we're forcing them to battle, doesn't having no-fighting zones work against that?
 

Crystanium

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So, what's the point of the safe zones then? If we're forcing them to battle, doesn't having no-fighting zones work against that?
It's not really safe, nor is it a "no-fighting zone", it's just a place where that character would be most familiar, and therefore have an advantage. I suppose it could be called "advantage zone". Of course, that depends on each character's background and what they've explored before. I might say for Samus, starting in an enclosed area, such as a cavern or abandoned spaceship will make her feel safer because of her familiarity. For Link, he would feel in his element if he started out in a woodsy area. We could just have the opposite ends based on a map from one of each character's own game and work from there.
 

Munomario777

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It's not really safe, nor is it a "no-fighting zone", it's just a place where that character would be most familiar, and therefore have an advantage. I suppose it could be called "advantage zone". Of course, that depends on each character's background and what they've explored before. I might say for Samus, starting in an enclosed area, such as a cavern or abandoned spaceship will make her feel safer because of her familiarity. For Link, he would feel in his element if he started out in a woodsy area. We could just have the opposite ends based on a map from one of each character's own game and work from there.
Ah, I see. I'd rather just have a standard battlefield that's universal to all fighters, A) to keep things simple and B) so we don't have to debate over what's the "optimal situation" for each fighter. I do think we could add things to the battlefield that benefit characters, though, but have them the same for each matchup.
 

Crystanium

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Ah, I see. I'd rather just have a standard battlefield that's universal to all fighters, A) to keep things simple and B) so we don't have to debate over what's the "optimal situation" for each fighter. I do think we could add things to the battlefield that benefit characters, though, but have them the same for each matchup.
I'm not sure if a standard battlefield will benefit everyone, though. Like I said, I tend to think of battlefields as a flat terrain that's limitless with a limitless sky, but that can make some characters suffer more than others. Nerdicon showed issues with the battlefield you presented.
 
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Munomario777

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I'm not sure if a standard battlefield will benefit everyone, though. Like I said, I tend to think of battlefields as a flat terrain that's limitless with a limitless sky, but that can make some characters suffer more than others. Nerdicon showed issues with the battlefield you presented.
What I mean by that is, have a lot of variety in the battlefield. For example, we could have slopes and hills for Sonic to build up speed and all, trees for Link, soft ground for burrowers, open skies for Fox and Falco, etc. Something for each character to work with, basically.
 

Crystanium

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What I mean by that is, have a lot of variety in the battlefield. For example, we could have slopes and hills for Sonic to build up speed and all, trees for Link, soft ground for burrowers, open skies for Fox and Falco, etc. Something for each character to work with, basically.
That's technically what I'm doing, but this diversity cannot all be present at once, which is why I think the Chaos Chamber will present what's suitable for each character at a time, not all at once.
 
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