Who's Canonically the Strongest Character in Smash?

[Reckless Godwin 2.0]

See above. Also, time freezing via Chaos Control could be another good option for taking away Falchion.

Elixirs take some time to drink, leaving Marth vulnerable, and the Lifesphere only heals Marth a little bit every once in a while.

Is this a joke, or...?

How are you going to pry away the Falchion from Marth when both are stuck in time?

The FE3 version of the Lifesphere restores all health at the beginning of the turn and makes elixirs redundant.

(facepalm) of course, although I speak the truth about archer accuracy and enemy evade!

Elixir + Lightsphere + Sol + Vulnerary would heal rather often.

Lifesphere not Lightsphere. Marth doesn't have skills, so no Sol.

I don't think it's a matter of Pokemon being resistant to attacks from other Pokemon; I recall humans surviving electrocution from a Pikachu once in the anime.

Once!? Pikachu electrocutes people on a semi-common basis and Ash gets burned by Charizard quite a few times as well. It makes you wonder why they can’t fight their own battle!

Similarly, Olimar tested the slicer soon after collecting it. He had the slicer and his journal on him, and it was made clear that he was preparing to initiate a test. It was also directly stated that he did so after the fact, and this is backed up by Olimar being quite observative in the past (he discovered a planet and a species).

More like the planet discovered him. If he’s so observant how did he get his ship crippled by that meteor https://youtu.be/WMF5wOnVj90 at 0:07-0:31.

Olimar uses Pikmin to beat up the officers easily.

All hail Emperor Olimar and his unstoppable army of Pikmin (the things I would do with an unstoppable army)!

Which is why the rule only takes effect if an invincibility item hasn't been shown to encounter an attack. For instance, Rainbow Mario doesn't encounter psychic attacks, so we use Protect.

That's not really what I was asking; I was asking if everyone else wanted a revote. We should come up with a policy for that, by the way.
@ Nerdicon @Dryn @ShadowLBlue @ Reckless Godwin 2.0 @BaganSmashBros
Should revotes be allowed or not, and if so, under what conditions?

Protect sucks because of it’s rapidly diminishing rate of effectiveness! Pavise (45% for Ike)>>>Protect (100%>50%>25%>12.5). I don’t know how you can compare it to an invincibility star. You can’t attack while using Protect like other “Invincibility options” and it‘s rapidly declining effectiveness with each consecutive use cripple it.

Sure. Somebody else can come up with the decisions.

Edit: As for all invincibility being treated the same, it's clear they're not. If I had to defend my position on the light beam working against Ganondorf, then anything else has to be defended separately, rather than treated with "elemental compatibility" like it is at FactPile. After all, the law of identity should prove the things are different.

Elemental Compatibility? Care to elaborate, preferably with a link?

vs is still undecided I see?

I would lean Samus over Kirby. Futuristic weapons, armor and a starship beats Kirby’s small mass and ability variety.

My Pokemon tier list. I haven’t accounted for priority moves, protect or held items:

beats with superior stats.

2HKOs with Dig and 1HKOs .

1HKOs with Stone Edge, and with Earthquake. 2HKOs with Flamethrower, and 2HKOs with assorted attacks. must use a Mewtwonite Y to avoid falling asleep and getting the strength to 1HKO with Psychic. I didn’t realize a could be so tanky!

1HKOs and with Earthquake, with Flash Cannon.

1HKOs and with Earthquake, and with Blast Burn.

1HKOs with Hydro Cannon, and with Dig, with Gunk Shot. can 2HKO by using Surf followed by Low Kick (other combinations expose to being KOed).

It seems like http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Disable can only affect one random move or the last move used depending on version.

Pokemon Tier List:

: Extremely high stats and Anime feats let him dominate.
: Six vs One is a devastating advantage.
: Protean, very high speed, high stats in general and Constant STAB.
: High speed and high stats.
: High speed and high stats.
: Unusually tanky for her tier.
: Mediocre stats with decent speed.
: Worst than .

One of the problems Pokemon face is their utter lack of Evasion under normal conditions which will hurt them against several characters on the main tier list.



You want to know what would be really effective against Samus… Lethality http://fireemblem.wikia.com/wiki/Lethality (available to Robin and Lucina)!

How do we handle attacks and abilities that are noted to ignore defenses (like the Luna skill or tome)? Is there anything like that for the Pokemon?

@ Munomario777 @Dryn How fast is Lyn https://youtu.be/9qQh1tShepo?t=41 at 0:41-1:00 (bonus: Roy at 0:22-0:40)? Are you thankful that she’s an Assist Trophy (and got nerfed) instead of playable?

@ Munomario777 , what’s up with the new avatar?

 

[Crystanium]

Elemental Compatibility? Care to elaborate, preferably with a link?

"Elements commonly associated with one franchise/universe will not be exclusive to that franchise/universe if they can be found in the opposition. For example, it is assumed that psychic powers displayed by characters hailing from Forgotten Realms can and would interact with psychic powers displayed by characters hailing from Starcraft as though they were the same.

"Although, similar arguments can be made for a great many number of elements (i.e. The Force, Chi, Magic, etc.), some of these may retain peculiar traits inherent to them that may help them retain a degree of exclusivity. All parties involved in the debate must present evidence against or in favor of this for the channels outlined in rule number “1” to make an official determination.

"Many of these are commonly associated in error with No Limit fallacies. See rule number “10” for details pertaining to what constitutes a No Limit situation." (FactPile Debating Rules)

I'm not sure how to determine Lyn's attacks. They rely on animations that are common in Japanese animation, but all one can get from these is Lyn is moving very fast. Apparently, lunging in fencing allows to cover 5 meters in the blink of an eye, according to TV Tropes. This must be including the sword to cover that distance.

 

[Munomario777]

Please address my argument instead of repeating yourself.

I apologize for that. In the video, Samus didn't instantly react to the attack. The tail grabbed her, and after about a second or so, Samus reacted and counter attacked. It took about a second for her to deal with the threat. The Light Speed Attack happens instantly, so instead of Samus being caught in a tail and able to react, she would be KO'd by the attack. The creatire's attack was simply slower than Sonic's, and while I applaud Samus for handling that situation so well, this one simply isn't doable.

We've been through this. You thought 99% the speed of light would do, but that wouldn't even work.

Was this recently, or a while ago? Because I don't recall you bringing up relativistic speeds recently.

Traveling at the speed of light while being made of mass contradicts physics.

Right, so we don't apply them to that attribute.

How are you going to pry away the Falchion from Marth when both are stuck in time?

It doesn't affect the user.

The FE3 version of the Lifesphere restores all health at the beginning of the turn and makes elixirs redundant.

This was changed in the remake, which takes precedence.

(facepalm) of course, although I speak the truth about archer accuracy and enemy evade!

Okay, good.

Once!? Pikachu electrocutes people on a semi-common basis and Ash gets burned by Charizard quite a few times as well. It makes you wonder why they can’t fight their own battle!

A good defense is a good offense (or whatever that saying is), but an actual offense would also be needed for a battle situation.

Protect sucks because of it’s rapidly diminishing rate of effectiveness! Pavise (45% for Ike)>>>Protect (100%>50%>25%>12.5). I don’t know how you can compare it to an invincibility star. You can’t attack while using Protect like other “Invincibility options” and it‘s rapidly declining effectiveness with each consecutive use cripple it.

Those are irrelevant to the attacks that it blocks.

Sure. Somebody else can come up with the decisions.

Under what conditions should a revote take place?

I would lean Samus over Kirby. Futuristic weapons, armor and a starship beats Kirby’s small mass and ability variety.

Agreed.

You want to know what would be really effective against Samus… Lethality http://fireemblem.wikia.com/wiki/Lethality (available to Robin and Lucina)!

Didn't you say that Marth had no skills in this fight?

How do we handle attacks and abilities that are noted to ignore defenses (like the Luna skill or tome)? Is there anything like that for the Pokemon?

I think we should let it bypass anything that it's been seen bypassing in the games (i.e. not Rainbow Mario), unless it has a specific reason for bypassing any defenses (i.e. creating an explosion inside the victim's body rather than attacking from the outside).

@ Munomario777 @Dryn How fast is Lyn https://youtu.be/9qQh1tShepo?t=41 at 0:41-1:00 (bonus: Roy at 0:22-0:40)? Are you thankful that she’s an Assist Trophy (and got nerfed) instead of playable?

Um, very?

@ Munomario777 , what’s up with the new avatar?

I've had it as my Skype avatar for a while now, so I thought I'd just make it consistent. As for why I chose it in the first place, it was just too great to pass up.

"Elements commonly associated with one franchise/universe will not be exclusive to that franchise/universe if they can be found in the opposition. For example, it is assumed that psychic powers displayed by characters hailing from Forgotten Realms can and would interact with psychic powers displayed by characters hailing from Starcraft as though they were the same.

"Although, similar arguments can be made for a great many number of elements (i.e. The Force, Chi, Magic, etc.), some of these may retain peculiar traits inherent to them that may help them retain a degree of exclusivity. All parties involved in the debate must present evidence against or in favor of this for the channels outlined in rule number “1” to make an official determination.

"Many of these are commonly associated in error with No Limit fallacies. See rule number “10” for details pertaining to what constitutes a No Limit situation." (FactPile Debating Rules)

I think we could use this for things like fire-based attacks, but not psychic attacks since those can be so varied between series.

 

[Putuk]

Most powerful being in the universe is right here:

GET SWOLE!!!

 

[Kirby Dragons]

vs is still undecided I see?

I say Kirby, he can go Hypernova Kirby to inhale her in Morph Ball form. He can also use Ninja to teleport inside the suit and attack.

Which is why the rule only takes effect if an invincibility item hasn't been shown to encounter an attack. For instance, Rainbow Mario doesn't encounter psychic attacks, so we use Protect.

Honestly, I don't see why Rainbow Mario wouldn't negate the psychic attack in the first place. It would just depend on how powerful the psychic attack is. Trick/Skill Swap/Trick Room/etc. aren't attacks, so Rainbow Mario can never block them.

I also don't even consider Protect an invincibility technique in the first place. All the Pokemon is doing is stopping attacks from hitting them; invincibility items/techniques let the attack hit, but no damage is taken.

We never see him do it.

He was about to, and it was stated various times in the movie.

Crushing damage =/= laser damage.

Correct. Laser damage (more specifically, Mewtwo's laser damage) > crushing damage > Super Sonic.

It's a disadvantage because Marx is too far away from Kirby after being launched to kill him, and he explodes afterwards.

Except at the time around when Marx was actually launched, he was close enough to attack.

Even if it isn't a weakness, it's still a quality of Marx that Kirby is taking advantage of.

Doesn't really go against the fact that Kirby is using the force of his attack to launch Marx.

The Magic summon moves at high speeds.

I still don't see that a lot faster than how Kirby can fly. And if Kirby wanted him to fly him across the level, I'm guessing he would have tried to grab on, or made a sad/angry face to express how the summon was misbehaving.

And? As you said in the past, the real Meta Knight is trapped in another dimension, is he not?

I'm not saying he isn't a copy, I'm saying he isn't different from MK, so he should be able to do the same things.

Me too. See the Unleashed opening.

Sonic dodged that by sliding under it. There's not any room to slide under Hypernova's inhalation, or the beam when fired downward. Also, that isn't using the Spin Dash/Light Speed Attack, which Sonic would be doing here.

True. Still, Needle Kirby and Sonic are different because Sonic is spinning at high speeds whereas Needle Kirby is not.

Spinning at high speeds doesn't make you unaffectable by sleep.

Which one?

Cutscene at the end of KTD.

How about a light-speed buzzsaw attack?

Same thing applies.

They're two different types of damage.

That doesn't mean anything. The durability used against a spinning buzzsaw attack is the same as the durability used against an explosion.

Ah, right. Replace Marx with Sectonia, then.

So Sectonia let Kirby do his job? I don't see how that means anything.

And the beam caused the explosion.

But the explosion didn't defeat Sectonia.

Which are?

Kirby being flattened when under something, and Kirby lifting something heavy.

He'd need to get height, or else he'd hit the ground first.

He does have height; he's on Giga Bowser.

Giga Bowser is too heavy.

Kirby is clinging onto him after teleporting.

Who said that the Clown Car was on top of Bowser? It's the other way around.

This is taking place after Kirby teleports onto Giga Bowser.

A) Prove it.

See 6:00.

B) He lands face-first on the ground, and he doesn't get to his senses until he lands.

He is at his senses; he creates a facial expression.

When does he "steer perfectly" in a situation like this?

I have shown him turning around perfectly. Since Kirby is moving at mach speeds, it is basically like Bowser isn't spinning at all to him, and he can fly in without trouble.

You can see here that the bricks themselves are being broken apart.

Okay. Well, each block is about half the size of Mario, so I don't think any stacks would equate to 40 feet (the size of the Dedede Stone).

Kirby would be between the walls, not between the wall and the ground.

And after he shrinks and pushes himself, he would be between the wall and the ground.

No, it's not. We've been over this before, but aside from the lack of distortion and all,

Artwork proves/disproves nothing.

there's also the approach to physics (which seems to be the popular one here) that says that real-life physics don't apply unless it's unspecified by the games. The behavior of Schwarz is specified in-game, so we don't use the real life behavior of black holes. Same goes for the ones from Galaxy/

Again, Schwarz ≠ black hole. Schwarz creates a black hole, but he isn't a black hole.

I fail to see how "weakness exploiting" is relevant.

It is an unfair action that doesn't work on things of lower quality.

When is this intent stated?

And the "points to use the powers" is energy being consumed.

Energy is never measured with points.

Perhaps not the best example. Hydro Pump's PP equates to force used to propel the water instead, or something of that nature.

Let's say Squirtle has Water Gun and Hydro Pump. Squirtle runs out of PP for Water Gun. Is it out of force to propel Water Gun? No; it can still propel Hydro Pump, which is basically a stronger version.

Think of PP like an energy meter. One PP is one use, which equates to X amount of volts. Thunder uses X amount of volts to use, so the PP goes from 9 to 8 per use of Thunder. The attack's strength doesn't change with PP, but the energy left to use it does.

So you're saying that Pokemon with electric attacks use volts as PP to use them? That doesn't make sense. When running out of PP for Thundershock, you still have PP for Thunder. If the Pokemon was out of volts after Thundershock, it wouldn't be able to use an even greater amount of volts for Thunder (seeing as Thunder is more powerful, and would therefore require more volts).

By virtue of the fact that Schwarz doesn't match up with said celestial object.

See above.

And likely killing them.

Not really. You might be injured, but that's about it.

Yes, a hole with a black coloration.

"A hole with black coloration" is not an attack.

Gameplay serves to provide a fun experience for the player, among other things. Cutscenes are built to progress the story.

Cutscenes don't necessarily progress the story. They can appear at the end of a story, or there can be bonus cutscenes that aren't part of the main story.

A goal, not the goal.

Reaching the goal isn't always a result of plot armor.

And death would result in a failure.

He didn't die, due to squishy skin.

It doesn't fit either, so we don't categorize it as one. It doesn't need to be a cutscene or gameplay.

It fits cutscenes better. In both cutscenes and these fights, no one is playing these guys, we would just watch what would happen.

Since when does squishy skin equal durability?

When attacked, the skin squishes rather than being destroyed, and the character isn't hurt.

He can block laser beams.

Rather, he blocks the damage from the laser beams. Baton Kirby's beam does no such damage. It also seems like his beam is made of a different kind of energy.

Also, you didn't address my other points.

What other points?

Yes, provided Sonic is also at that altitude.

Then Kirby counters with Sleep/Hypernova forms.

Prove it.

Stressed people are quite unwilling to do work.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_ignorance

It's not an argument from ignorance to say that something that obviously didn't happen, didn't happen. In fact, I don't even know where you got this "tumbling out of the ship" from anyways.

The helmets are durable, so they don't crack. This doesn't stop Olimar from hitting his head unless it's somehow unable to touch the glass.

It's Louie we're talking about. His head is close to the glass of the helmet, so bumping into it couldn't exactly cause a concussion.

When?

He didn't do it, but he could if he needed to. He has taken out more powerful foes than the law.

If your friend owes you money, do you ignore it due to your friendship?

I could see that actually happening, yeah.

Provide video evidence of Olimar seeing the knife rip a hole in spacetime, then.

Written evidence from the game is enough.

It's evidenced in Pikmin 1, which takes place directly before.

After what, 56 days? Olimar isn't even on the planet that long in Pikmin 2.

It's a logical conclusion.

I don't find it logical that losing your friend leads to stress great enough to make you write things you don't actually mean. It probably wouldn't even lead to stress in the first place, worry is more likely.

It seems rather obvious that being insane would make you a bit off in the head.

AFAIK, the insanity we saw in Pikmin didn't lead to Olimar seeing things that didn't happen, or him writing things that were false.

Right, that's why I'm basing my claims on the games.

The claims are speculation. Too much of it isn't necessarily, well, good.

As in, quotes from a WoG or something of the sort.

If I need a WoG quote for this, you need a WoG quote saying that Sonic teleported.

Rosalina has 9,999 Star Bits at her disposal. At minimum, a galaxy takes 400 Star Bits and a few seconds to create, and with many Lumas firing their own streams, this time would be greatly reduced.

How many Star Bits can they fire at once in one stream? If the Lumas fired bits into the mouth of another Luma all at once, Star Bits would just end up deflecting each other.

Yes, used them to defeat Kirby.

That's what you think. Kirby can easily dodge the power-ups with the Warp Star, Air Ride Vehicles, Wheel, or Jet. Furthermore, he can always use Ninja + Invincibility Candy + his pure strength to teleport inside Rosalina's forcefield and toss her with force powerful enough to surpass the Starman.

Right. It follows moving enemies. As in, as the enemy moves, Sonic Wind moves.

Oh. Well, Marth picks the swords back up, and his damage will eventually heal.

You mentioned the Risen and Marth dealing some damage.

I mentioned the Risen holding Sonic off.

By the way, Sonic resisted Dark Gaia's influences as Sonic the Werehog, correct? I'm guessing this is because with his feral mind, there wasn't anything to influence. Sonic isn't Sonic the Werehog in his fight against Marth.

A blacksmith could use the power of a flame to craft a sword, but that sword doesn't necessarily have fire abilities.

A) The power of flame isn't actually his. It's the power of fire that he's using.
B) That isn't what I was saying. I didn't say the gems would have the abilities of Naga, I said they'd have the power (as in, force) of Naga.

Lifesphere not Lightsphere.

My bad.

Marth doesn't have skills, so no Sol.

Why no skills?

I would lean Samus over Kirby. Futuristic weapons, armor and a starship beats Kirby’s small mass and ability variety.

Kirby could counter the weapons by dodging on as Jet Kirby, and reflecting most of them back as Mirror Kirby. He can dish out tons of force as well, enough to send Marx to another planet.

My Pokemon tier list. I haven’t accounted for priority moves, protect or held items:

beats with superior stats.

2HKOs with Dig and 1HKOs .

1HKOs with Stone Edge, and with Earthquake. 2HKOs with Flamethrower, and 2HKOs with assorted attacks. must use a Mewtwonite Y to avoid falling asleep and getting the strength to 1HKO with Psychic. I didn’t realize a could be so tanky!

1HKOs and with Earthquake, with Flash Cannon.

1HKOs and with Earthquake, and with Blast Burn.

1HKOs with Hydro Cannon, and with Dig, with Gunk Shot. can 2HKO by using Surf followed by Low Kick (other combinations expose to being KOed).

It seems like http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Disable can only affect one random move or the last move used depending on version.

Pokemon Tier List:

: Extremely high stats and Anime feats let him dominate.
: Six vs One is a devastating advantage.
: Protean, very high speed, high stats in general and Constant STAB.
: High speed and high stats.
: High speed and high stats.
: Unusually tanky for her tier.
: Mediocre stats with decent speed.
: Worst than .

This is actually really accurate.

One of the problems Pokemon face is their utter lack of Evasion under normal conditions which will hurt them against several characters on the main tier list.

The reason they don't dodge under normal conditions is because the game doesn't allow them to.

You want to know what would be really effective against Samus… Lethality http://fireemblem.wikia.com/wiki/Lethality (available to Robin and Lucina)!

That would be really effective against anybody, really.

It doesn't affect the user.

It affects Falchion, so Sonic can't pry it away.

This was changed in the remake, which takes precedence.

The vote for that didn't pass yet. It's 2 (you/Dryn) against 2 (me/Godwin).

Didn't you say that Marth had no skills in this fight?

He was referring to .

 

[j29736]

Pichu from Melee, obviously.

 

[Munomario777]

I say Kirby, he can go Hypernova Kirby to inhale her in Morph Ball form. He can also use Ninja to teleport inside the suit and attack.

Samus only needs to enter ball form for a couple of seconds (to deploy a Power Bomb). The Power Suit is too tight of a fit for Kirby to fit inside.

Honestly, I don't see why Rainbow Mario wouldn't negate the psychic attack in the first place. It would just depend on how powerful the psychic attack is. Trick/Skill Swap/Trick Room/etc. aren't attacks, so Rainbow Mario can never block them.

I don't see how Trick and the like would be more effective on an invincible character than a vulnerable character surrounded by an invincible shield.

I also don't even consider Protect an invincibility technique in the first place. All the Pokemon is doing is stopping attacks from hitting them; invincibility items/techniques let the attack hit, but no damage is taken.

It makes the user invulnerable to most attacks.

He was about to, and it was stated various times in the movie.

I could plot to take over the world, but that doesn't mean that I could actually accomplish it.

Correct. Laser damage (more specifically, Mewtwo's laser damage) > crushing damage > Super Sonic.

As in, they're different categories, so we can't really compare them.

Except at the time around when Marx was actually launched, he was close enough to attack.

When Marx is launched off into space, he can't attack Kirby. The definition of "weakness" doesn't mean much anyways.

Doesn't really go against the fact that Kirby is using the force of his attack to launch Marx.

And I could use the force of my finger to launch a rocket (via a button).

I still don't see that a lot faster than how Kirby can fly.

I do. Show Kirby moving at those speeds.

And if Kirby wanted him to fly him across the level, I'm guessing he would have tried to grab on, or made a sad/angry face to express how the summon was misbehaving.

He seems too fast for that.

I'm not saying he isn't a copy, I'm saying he isn't different from MK, so he should be able to do the same things.

Prove that he's the same (or not different).

Sonic dodged that by sliding under it. There's not any room to slide under Hypernova's inhalation, or the beam when fired downward.

Right, so he moves to the side instead.

Also, that isn't using the Spin Dash/Light Speed Attack, which Sonic would be doing here.

Sonic still has good maneuverability while in ball form. The aforementioned Quick Step is also available during the Sonic Boost.

Spinning at high speeds doesn't make you unaffectable by sleep.

Right, and using Sleep doesn't make you invulnerable to Sonic spinning at high speeds. See my point now?

Cutscene at the end of KTD.

Plot armor, and the rest of the series.

Same thing applies.

Prove it.

That doesn't mean anything. The durability used against a spinning buzzsaw attack is the same as the durability used against an explosion.

Prove it.

So Sectonia let Kirby do his job? I don't see how that means anything.

No, Kirby caused Sectonia to explode, making it "his" attack.

But the explosion didn't defeat Sectonia.

It defeated the rest of Sectonia's plants and all on the planet. Worth noting is that it doesn't actually destroy anything on the planet other than these plants, by the way, meaning that either the explosion is rather weak, only affects the plants, or this is a case of friendly fire/plot armor.

Kirby being flattened when under something, and Kirby lifting something heavy.

And Giga Bowser is too heavy.

He does have height; he's on Giga Bowser.

No, he's on the ground, about to get covered up by the Clown Car. The context is Kirby dodging the Clown Car.

Kirby is clinging onto him after teleporting.

"Even if Bowser could put the Clown Car over Kirby, he'd just throw it away and out of Bowser's reach."

This is taking place after Kirby teleports onto Giga Bowser.

How does that correlate to the Clown Car being on top of Bowser?

See 6:00.

I don't see him crashing without tumbling into the ground.

He is at his senses; he creates a facial expression.

Yes, one of shock. That doesn't mean that he's at his senses.

I have shown him turning around perfectly. Since Kirby is moving at mach speeds, it is basically like Bowser isn't spinning at all to him, and he can fly in without trouble.

Kirby still has to turn constantly, and Bowser could vary the speed of his rotation to throw Kirby off.

Okay. Well, each block is about half the size of Mario, so I don't think any stacks would equate to 40 feet (the size of the Dedede Stone).

Mario has no signs of slowing down even when crushing the tallest stacks of blocks, showing that he could crush much more than that.

And after he shrinks and pushes himself, he would be between the wall and the ground.

When does he "shrink and push himself" through a nearly nonexistent crack?

Artwork proves/disproves nothing.

In that case, Kirby isn't pink.

Again, Schwarz ≠ black hole. Schwarz creates a black hole, but he isn't a black hole.

No, Schwarz's attack =/= a black hole.

It is an unfair action that doesn't work on things of lower quality.

And how is that relevant?

View attachment 52344

"I hope you can rescue the Grand Stars."
A) The Hungry Luma galaxies don't contain Grand Stars.
B) This is Rosalina talking, not the Lumas.
C) This doesn't mention any intent of helping Mario in the way you describe.

Energy is never measured with points.

It is here.

Let's say Squirtle has Water Gun and Hydro Pump. Squirtle runs out of PP for Water Gun. Is it out of force to propel Water Gun? No; it can still propel Hydro Pump, which is basically a stronger version.

Separate energy reserves.

So you're saying that Pokemon with electric attacks use volts as PP to use them? That doesn't make sense. When running out of PP for Thundershock, you still have PP for Thunder. If the Pokemon was out of volts after Thundershock, it wouldn't be able to use an even greater amount of volts for Thunder (seeing as Thunder is more powerful, and would therefore require more volts).

Separate energy reserves.

Not really. You might be injured, but that's about it.

It depends on how deep it is.

"A hole with black coloration" is not an attack.

Right. A hole with black coloration and a purple aura that sucks Kirby in and kills him is.

Cutscenes don't necessarily progress the story. They can appear at the end of a story, or there can be bonus cutscenes that aren't part of the main story.

Those are still built to work around a specific storyline.

Reaching the goal isn't always a result of plot armor.

It is here.

He didn't die, due to squishy skin.

I'm covered with squishy skin (as are most people), and yet I doubt that I could survive a bomb's explosion.

It fits cutscenes better. In both cutscenes and these fights, no one is playing these guys, we would just watch what would happen.

Cutscenes are in-game; this is not. I don't see why you feel the need to classify this as either a cutscene or gameplay.

When attacked, the skin squishes rather than being destroyed, and the character isn't hurt.

A person with a lot of squishy skin won't survive an explosion.

Rather, he blocks the damage from the laser beams. Baton Kirby's beam does no such damage. It also seems like his beam is made of a different kind of energy.

Lasers in Sonic also deal knockback, yet they don't knock Super Sonic back. I don't see why the properties of Baton would be any different. Has the beam been shown to affect enemies that are resistant to laser beams?

What other points?

The stuff about confusing and avoiding Kirby. Also, riding an Extreme Gear hoverboard could keep Sonic mobile while charging.

Then Kirby counters with Sleep/Hypernova forms.

He can't activate them in time.

Stressed people are quite unwilling to do work.

He's being forced to here.

It's not an argument from ignorance to say that something that obviously didn't happen, didn't happen.

An argument from ignorance is saying that something is false because it hasn't been proven true (even though there's evidence on the true side). You said he didn't have a concussion because we didn't see it. Anyways, you don't really "see" a concussion without the proper medical equipment and all.

In fact, I don't even know where you got this "tumbling out of the ship" from anyways.

It's when he first lands on the planet.

It's Louie we're talking about. His head is close to the glass of the helmet, so bumping into it couldn't exactly cause a concussion.

I'm saying that Olimar got a concussion. Having your head close to the glass doesn't prevent you from getting a concussion.

He didn't do it, but he could if he needed to. He has taken out more powerful foes than the law.

Prove that Hocotate's police force (who are likely armed) are easier to defeat than the Pikmin enemies.

I could see that actually happening, yeah.

So you'd just ignore, say, a $100,000 debt they owed you (or whatever it was in Pikmin 2)?

Written evidence from the game is enough.

It's not from the game, though. It's from Olimar.

After what, 56 days? Olimar isn't even on the planet that long in Pikmin 2.

He's been there long enough in the previous game.

I don't find it logical that losing your friend leads to stress great enough to make you write things you don't actually mean. It probably wouldn't even lead to stress in the first place, worry is more likely.

It's more the overall situation. The "losing your friend and having to save him before he gets eaten" thing does contribute, though.

AFAIK, the insanity we saw in Pikmin didn't lead to Olimar seeing things that didn't happen, or him writing things that were false.

Pikmin 2 just adds to that.

The claims are speculation. Too much of it isn't necessarily, well, good.

Concussions are caused by hitting the head. Olimar hits his head. Therefore, Olimar likely suffered a concussion.

Olimar is in a dangerous situation. Dangerous situations cause stress. Therefore, Olimar is likely in stress.

Also, I'd like to bring up PTSD, or post-traumatic stress disorder. It's a rather common condition (about 3 million cases in the U.S. per year), and is basically a place, object, etc triggering memories of a traumatic situation. It can last for months or even years, and can cause, among other things, hallucinations. Olimar was definitely in a traumatic situation in Pikmin 1, and since it lasts for such a long time, it wouldn't wear off between these close games. Olimar is visiting the same planet where he was traumatized, and the "ripping through spacetime" deal sounds like a hallucination (especially since it's not even hinted at elsewhere in the game). Coincidence? I think not.

If I need a WoG quote for this, you need a WoG quote saying that Sonic teleported.

How about the physical proof of Sonic not being inside the capsule when it exploded?

How many Star Bits can they fire at once in one stream? If the Lumas fired bits into the mouth of another Luma all at once, Star Bits would just end up deflecting each other.

However many Lumas there are. I don't think that happens in Galaxy, but I'd have to double check.

That's what you think. Kirby can easily dodge the power-ups with the Warp Star, Air Ride Vehicles, Wheel, or Jet. Furthermore, he can always use Ninja + Invincibility Candy + his pure strength to teleport inside Rosalina's forcefield and toss her with force powerful enough to surpass the Starman.

Rosalina's TK prevents Kirby from escaping, and I don't see how Kirby could toss Rosalina to get past the Starman.

Oh. Well, Marth picks the swords back up, and his damage will eventually heal.

Except Sonic is constantly attacking, leaving Marth no chance to get the swords back.

I mentioned the Risen holding Sonic off.

How exactly?

By the way, Sonic resisted Dark Gaia's influences as Sonic the Werehog, correct? I'm guessing this is because with his feral mind, there wasn't anything to influence. Sonic isn't Sonic the Werehog in his fight against Marth.

The Werehog form was a result of Dark Gaia's influence. There's definitely something there to possess; Sonic loses no intelligence in Werehog form.

A) The power of flame isn't actually his. It's the power of fire that he's using.
B) That isn't what I was saying. I didn't say the gems would have the abilities of Naga, I said they'd have the power (as in, force) of Naga.

A) The flame helped make the sword, and it doesn't have the flame's power.
B) A dull dagger could be made using a hammer, and it wouldn't have the same amount of force.

Kirby could counter the weapons by dodging on as Jet Kirby, and reflecting most of them back as Mirror Kirby. He can dish out tons of force as well, enough to send Marx to another planet.

Power Bomb. /battle

It affects Falchion, so Sonic can't pry it away.

The user of Chaos Control can move things while it's active; air molecules, for example, don't get in the way or anything.

The vote for that didn't pass yet. It's 2 (you/Dryn) against 2 (me/Godwin).

Ah, right. It's still the more recent game, or latest "version" of the canon.

He was referring to .

I don't see why they would be treated differently from Marth.

 

[Crystanium]

I apologize for that. In the video, Samus didn't instantly react to the attack. The tail grabbed her, and after about a second or so, Samus reacted and counter attacked. It took about a second for her to deal with the threat. The Light Speed Attack happens instantly, so instead of Samus being caught in a tail and able to react, she would be KO'd by the attack. The creatire's attack was simply slower than Sonic's, and while I applaud Samus for handling that situation so well, this one simply isn't doable.

Again, you failed to address my argument. Two posts ago, you said the tail grabbed Samus. I said this is simply the grab animation from the ghalmanian. Had the player not countered, Samus would have been picked up, swung around, and then thrown. Since the counter-attack was performed, Samus is outside of the tail instead. This is the counter animation. What it's supposed to look like is as the tail from the ghalmanian swings at Samus, she is to grab the end of its tail. That's what it would actually look like. This is the second time you've repeated yourself without actually addressing these points I made.

Was this recently, or a while ago? Because I don't recall you bringing up relativistic speeds recently.

I explained to you that infinite energy requires infinite mass. You suggested 99% the speed of light, but I also mentioned that even at this speed, Sonic would be generating nuclear explosions, which would end up killing him in the process. The same is likely if at 1% the speed of light. So we were going to work with 0.9% the speed of light, even though that is not light speed, meaning "light speed attack" is a misnomer.

Right, so we don't apply them to that attribute.

Apply what? You need mass to produce a considerable amount of force. You need infinite energy to travel at the speed of light. Traveling at light speed would also make Sonic become blue (he already is anyway, but his shoes would) as he approached anyone, due to the blueshift. He'd become red as he went away, due to redshift. He'd be flatter. He also wouldn't be able to see what's in front of him because light is not making it into his eyes. If he looked back, he might be able to see things, but in front of him, it'd be black. This means Sonic would be blind and crash into things. So either Sonic is massless during travel, but full of mass on impact (though generating the same force from a simple homing attack), or "light speed" is a misnomer and means nothing more than "really fast".

 

[Munomario777]

Again, you failed to address my argument. Two posts ago, you said the tail grabbed Samus. I said this is simply the grab animation from the ghalmanian. Had the player not countered, Samus would have been picked up, swung around, and then thrown. Since the counter-attack was performed, Samus is outside of the tail instead. This is the counter animation. What it's supposed to look like is as the tail from the ghalmanian swings at Samus, she is to grab the end of its tail. That's what it would actually look like. This is the second time you've repeated yourself without actually addressing these points I made.

Is Samus not inside the tail at first?

I explained to you that infinite energy requires infinite mass. You suggested 99% the speed of light, but I also mentioned that even at this speed, Sonic would be generating nuclear explosions, which would end up killing him in the process. The same is likely if at 1% the speed of light. So we were going to work with 0.9% the speed of light, even though that is not light speed, meaning "light speed attack" is a misnomer.

The game states that Sonic travels at light speed to perform the attack, and he doesn't create a nuclear explosion. It might be an ability of the item Sonic uses to achieve these speeds (the Light Speed Shoes) that causes Sonic not to explode everything around him and all.

Apply what?

Real-life physics.

You need mass to produce a considerable amount of force. You need infinite energy to travel at the speed of light. Traveling at light speed would also make Sonic become blue (he already is anyway, but his shoes would) as he approached anyone, due to the blueshift. He'd become red as he went away, due to redshift. He'd be flatter. He also wouldn't be able to see what's in front of him because light is not making it into his eyes. If he looked back, he might be able to see things, but in front of him, it'd be black. This means Sonic would be blind and crash into things. So either Sonic is massless during travel, but full of mass on impact (though generating the same force from a simple homing attack), or "light speed" is a misnomer and means nothing more than "really fast".

Or it's the Light Speed Shoes giving him this power, or it's just a case of video game physics.

Based on the current vote for the physics deal, using video game physics and filling in the gaps with real life physics seems to be in the lead with two votes (three if Dryn also voted for this, but it's unclear atm). Does anyone else have a vote on this?

 

[Crystanium]

Is Samus not inside the tail at first?

She is.

The game states that Sonic travels at light speed to perform the attack, and he doesn't create a nuclear explosion. It might be an ability of the item Sonic uses to achieve these speeds (the Light Speed Shoes) that causes Sonic not to explode everything around him and all.

Can you support this Speed Force-esque feature?

Real-life physics.

Then Sonic loses his ability to travel 299,792,458 m/s, regardless of having the words "light speed".

Or it's the Light Speed Shoes giving him this power, or it's just a case of video game physics.

It's likely both, but the latter doesn't function as it should in the real world.

Based on the current vote for the physics deal, using video game physics and filling in the gaps with real life physics seems to be in the lead with two votes (three if Dryn also voted for this, but it's unclear atm). Does anyone else have a vote on this?

I'm not quite sure yet.

 

[Munomario777]

She is.

Okay. In the clip you provided, Samus counter attacks after she's already been "hit" by the attack. The enemy's attack connected, and Samus is in the tail (the result of said attack). Samus then manipulates the situation to her advantage. In the case of Sonic's speed attacks and such, when Samus is hit by the attack (like she is with the tail wrap), she won't be trapped in a tail and able to work around it. She'll be torn apart/damaged/etc by the attack, and Sonic will be too far away to counter attack.

Can you support this Speed Force-esque feature?

Sure. Sonic doesn't explode the city or anything when he uses the LSA.

Then Sonic loses his ability to travel 299,792,458 m/s, regardless of having the words "light speed".

How does not applying real life physics to light speed travel limit its speed?

It's likely both, but the latter doesn't function as it should in the real world.

Right.

I'm not quite sure yet.

 

[Crystanium]

Okay. In the clip you provided, Samus counter attacks after she's already been "hit" by the attack. The enemy's attack connected, and Samus is in the tail (the result of said attack). Samus then manipulates the situation to her advantage. In the case of Sonic's speed attacks and such, when Samus is hit by the attack (like she is with the tail wrap), she won't be trapped in a tail and able to work around it. She'll be torn apart/damaged/etc by the attack, and Sonic will be too far away to counter attack.

She isn't hit, though. (She receives no damage.) She's merely grabbed, but upon countering, you'll notice Samus is immediately outside of the tail. It doesn't show her wiggling her way out. It doesn't show any indication of struggling. It shows her left hand holding the end of the ghalmanian's tail, which means with that window of opportunity for the player to counter, what we would actually be seeing is Samus grabbing the tail as it swung her way. Otherwise, Samus would be able to counter at any time as long as she was grounded. Considering the Chozo possess psionics and the ability to see the future (and Samus' integration with Chozo DNA), it's possible that Samus' sense move is precognitive.

Sure. Sonic doesn't explode the city or anything when he uses the LSA.

That's as much proof as Sonic isn't traveling light speed and that's just a misnomer.

How does not applying real life physics to light speed travel limit its speed?

Well, for one, it's not light speed. That's a severe limitation.

 

[Munomario777]

She isn't hit, though. (She receives no damage.) She's merely grabbed, but upon countering, you'll notice Samus is immediately outside of the tail. It doesn't show her wiggling her way out. It doesn't show any indication of struggling. It shows her left hand holding the end of the ghalmanian's tail, which means with that window of opportunity for the player to counter, what we would actually be seeing is Samus grabbing the tail as it swung her way. Otherwise, Samus would be able to counter at any time as long as she was grounded. Considering the Chozo possess psionics and the ability to see the future (and Samus' integration with Chozo DNA), it's possible that Samus' sense move is precognitive.

This is all true for the monster's attack. However, whereas the tail attack merely immobilizes Samus, the LSA and other attacks from Sonic would damage her instead.

That's as much proof as Sonic isn't traveling light speed and that's just a misnomer.

Lore takes precedence.

Well, for one, it's not light speed. That's a severe limitation.

I don't see how withholding real life physics from that attribute gives it that limitation.

 

[Reckless Godwin 2.0]

"Elements commonly associated with one franchise/universe will not be exclusive to that franchise/universe if they can be found in the opposition. For example, it is assumed that psychic powers displayed by characters hailing from Forgotten Realms can and would interact with psychic powers displayed by characters hailing from Starcraft as though they were the same.

"Although, similar arguments can be made for a great many number of elements (i.e. The Force, Chi, Magic, etc.), some of these may retain peculiar traits inherent to them that may help them retain a degree of exclusivity. All parties involved in the debate must present evidence against or in favor of this for the channels outlined in rule number “1” to make an official determination.

"Many of these are commonly associated in error with No Limit fallacies. See rule number “10” for details pertaining to what constitutes a No Limit situation." (FactPile Debating Rules)

I'm not sure how to determine Lyn's attacks. They rely on animations that are common in Japanese animation, but all one can get from these is Lyn is moving very fast. Apparently, lunging in fencing allows to cover 5 meters in the blink of an eye, according to TV Tropes. This must be including the sword to cover that distance.

Thanks

I think we should let it bypass anything that it's been seen bypassing in the games (i.e. not Rainbow Mario), unless it has a specific reason for bypassing any defenses (i.e. creating an explosion inside the victim's body rather than attacking from the outside).

Ike's Radiant Dawn (FE10) Aether’s 2nd hit ignores defense entirely https://youtu.be/AEOfO3_HCsw?t=43 at 0:43-1:01 for Axe and Sword variants. Fun Fact: Ike can activate Aether on doors when he tries to bust them down.

Most powerful being in the universe is right here:

GET SWOLE!!!

Ike+Ragnell+Birdfoe+Aether=GG Dedede.

My bad.

Why no skills?

This is actually really accurate.

The reason they don't dodge under normal conditions is because the game doesn't allow them to.

That would be really effective against anybody, really.

It affects Falchion, so Sonic can't pry it away.

The vote for that didn't pass yet. It's 2 (you/Dryn) against 2 (me/Godwin).

He was referring to .

No biggie

We’re using the real Hero-King Marth rather than the doppelgangers (there’s at least two Marths and One Tiki despite Tiki still being alive at the time of the game) in Awakening and Marth’s original games lacked a skill system. If you used one of the multiple Marth Einherjars then you would not have any of the Spheres at all.

I made a spreadsheet and ran some calcs with it (including neutral nature, full IVs and balanced EVs).

You would think GameFreak would have the sense to make accuracy and evasion stats in Pokemon to make more Pokemon viable in high level play.

Activation chance is somewhere around a 16% chance for Robin and a 27% chance for Lucina (thanks to Rightful King). If Brave weapons are involved (weapons that grant an extra consecutive strike) the chances rise to 29.5% and 46.7% respectively. So yes that would be highly effective against the majority of the cast.

Thanks for helping clear up Munomario777's misconceptions.

I'm covered with squishy skin (as are most people), and yet I doubt that I could survive a bomb's explosion.

I don't see why they would be treated differently from Marth.

Kirby’s squishier. You'd be surprised at what a human being can live through.

Skills are a major part of Awakening's metagame.

He also wouldn't be able to see what's in front of him because light is not making it into his eyes. If he looked back, he might be able to see things, but in front of him, it'd be black. This means Sonic would be blind and crash into things.

Did you get these mixed up? I would think it would be the other way around at Light speed or above (the light from behind wouldn't be able to catch up).



@ Munomario777 @ Kirby Dragons Can we just ignore the intricacies of the Pokemon PP deal (It‘s there to prevent you from spamming the high end attacks against everything and I doubt running out of PP will be a major problem in a One on One match)? You guys don’t seem to be getting anywhere.

 

[Munomario777]

Ike's Radiant Dawn (FE10) Aether’s 2nd hit ignores defense entirely https://youtu.be/AEOfO3_HCsw?t=43 at 0:43-1:01 for Axe and Sword variants. Fun Fact: Ike can activate Aether on doors when he tries to bust them down.

If there's no explanation that implies that it could bust through any defense, then we should limit it to what it's busted through in the games.

Kirby’s squishier. You'd be surprised at what a human being can live through.

I don't see how being squishy would help one survive a planet-sized explosion.

Skills are a major part of Awakening's metagame.

Does Marth ever use skills in his games?

@ Munomario777 @ Kirby Dragons Can we just ignore the intricacies of the Pokemon PP deal (It‘s there to prevent you from spamming the high end attacks against everything and I doubt running out of PP will be a major problem in a One on One match)? You guys don’t seem to be getting anywhere.

In that case, Mega Man gets unlimited ammo, Sonic gets unlimited Rings, Mario gets unlimited Flower Points and such (from the RPGs), etc etc.

 

[Crystanium]

This is all true for the monster's attack. However, whereas the tail attack merely immobilizes Samus, the LSA and other attacks from Sonic would damage her instead.

In Samus' case, the two second charge is more than enough for Samus to attack. It would be unwise for Sonic to leave himself open. If the plasma beam travels 62.22 miles per second (Mach 291.67), then things are going to look bad for Sonic.

Lore takes precedence.

Which is why ignoring everything that comes with traveling at light speed while being made of mass includes Sonic's light speed attack to not be at light speed. All the features of what would happen if you ran at the speed of light or even 1% the speed of light comes with the package. You dismiss one, you dismiss all, unless you're someone like the Flash, whose Speed Force prevents this. And that's canon.

I don't see how withholding real life physics from that attribute gives it that limitation.

If LSA is supposed to be an attack that travels 299,792,458 m/s, but we use the way it looks during game play, then that's a severe limitation because that speed during game play is not 299,792,458 m/s.

 

[Munomario777]

In Samus' case, the two second charge is more than enough for Samus to attack. It would be unwise for Sonic to leave himself open. If the plasma beam travels 62.22 miles per second (Mach 291.67), then things are going to look bad for Sonic.

The two-second charge would have occurred before Sonic used Chaos Control to teleport in front of (or even better, behind) Samus. Once the charge is taken care of, the activation is practically instant.

Which is why ignoring everything that comes with traveling at light speed while being made of mass includes Sonic's light speed attack to not be at light speed. All the features of what would happen if you ran at the speed of light or even 1% the speed of light comes with the package. You dismiss one, you dismiss all, unless you're someone like the Flash, whose Speed Force prevents this. And that's canon.

The popular vote at the moment is using what we have from the games and filling in the gaps with real life physics. Sonic moves at light speed (the value of which we pull from real life), and he doesn't explode everything around him and all that because the games overrule real life physics when attributes contradict each other. That's the current leading vote.

As for the whole Flash deal, I wouldn't be surprised if Sonic was using something similar to the Speed Force (or a modified, weaker version of it thanks to the "all games are connected" theory and all). In fact, now that I think about it, Sonic's abilities are rather similar to some of the ones found in Speed Force users. Aside from the obvious super speed and all, there are also quite a few other parallels. Speed Force users often have sped-up thinking, and this is reflected in Sonic's quick reaction time. The Flash can lend speed to objects, and Sonic does something similar in Sonic Generations; by simply standing on a mining platform in Planet Wisp, he can make it move faster with no physical effort shown, without even spending any Boost energy. He can vibrate his molecules to heal himself like the Flash's healing abilities. Sonic also possesses a form of ESP (granted to Speed Force users); his quills can sense danger. Granted, this could just be a coincidence, but I felt it was interesting enough to point out.

If LSA is supposed to be an attack that travels 299,792,458 m/s, but we use the way it looks during game play, then that's a severe limitation because that speed during game play is not 299,792,458 m/s.

Lore > gameplay when it comes to the speed of things.

 

[Crystanium]

The two-second charge would have occurred before Sonic used Chaos Control to teleport in front of (or even better, behind) Samus. Once the charge is taken care of, the activation is practically instant.

All right, so I'm going to ask if Sonic has ever done this before. Also, what about sense move? It's clearly not coming from the suit, as Samus can perform this outside of her armor. Her integration with Chozo DNA and the fact that the Chozo possess psychic abilities would highly suggest Samus' sense move is some sort of precognition.

The popular vote at the moment is using what we have from the games and filling in the gaps with real life physics. Sonic moves at light speed (the value of which we pull from real life), and he doesn't explode everything around him and all that because the games overrule real life physics when attributes contradict each other. That's the current leading vote.

That honestly makes no difference. If Sonic is traveling 299,792,458 m/s, and if everything isn't blowing up, then maintaining our physics with lore means Sonic must be massless when he travels at light speed, but not when he comes into direct contact with his opponent.

As for the whole Flash deal, I wouldn't be surprised if Sonic was using something similar to the Speed Force (or a modified, weaker version of it thanks to the "all games are connected" theory and all). In fact, now that I think about it, Sonic's abilities are rather similar to some of the ones found in Speed Force users. Aside from the obvious super speed and all, there are also quite a few other parallels. Speed Force users often have sped-up thinking, and this is reflected in Sonic's quick reaction time. The Flash can lend speed to objects, and Sonic does something similar in Sonic Generations; by simply standing on a mining platform in Planet Wisp, he can make it move faster with no physical effort shown, without even spending any Boost energy. He can vibrate his molecules to heal himself like the Flash's healing abilities. Sonic also possesses a form of ESP (granted to Speed Force users); his quills can sense danger. Granted, this could just be a coincidence, but I felt it was interesting enough to point out.

Lore > gameplay when it comes to the speed of things.

While that's interesting, it's no surprise as the Flash might be an inspiration for similar abilities. Even Quicksilver from Marvel can vibrate his molecules to phase through objects and obviously has a superior reaction time to many people who are speedsters. Of course, not all gain their speed from the Speed Force. Superman is one example of this.

 

[Kirby Dragons]

Samus only needs to enter ball form for a couple of seconds (to deploy a Power Bomb). The Power Suit is too tight of a fit for Kirby to fit inside.

Kirby can inhale Samus in less than a couple of seconds. Morph Ball is a meter (3 feet) tall, so Hypernova Kirby can inhale it.

I don't see how Trick and the like would be more effective on an invincible character than a vulnerable character surrounded by an invincible shield.

The shield is made specifically for blocking off Trick and the like. Starman isn't.

It makes the user invulnerable to most attacks.

Trick ≠ attack. It isn't violent in any way.

I could plot to take over the world, but that doesn't mean that I could actually accomplish it.

No one anticipates you taking over the world, and you aren't on the brink of taking it over either.

As in, they're different categories, so we can't really compare them.

We're seeing Super Sonic's resistance to force. He can't resist the force of the wall, so he can't resist the superior force of Mewtwo's beam.

When Marx is launched off into space, he can't attack Kirby. The definition of "weakness" doesn't mean much anyways.

During the actual launch, he can, because he is there.

And I could use the force of my finger to launch a rocket (via a button).

You use the force of your finger to push the button, not launch the rocket. The thing that actually launches the rocket is the fire, which has enough force to launch the rocket.

I do. Show Kirby moving at those speeds.

That isn't really relevant, because Kirby didn't see the speed of the summon before the summon.

He seems too fast for that.

Really? I could make a sad/angry face in that time.

Prove that he's the same (or not different).

The things we see him do are flying and slashing. Both things the actual MK has done.

Right, so he moves to the side instead.

But then, he wouldn't be able to hit Kirby anyways.

Sonic still has good maneuverability while in ball form. The aforementioned Quick Step is also available during the Sonic Boost.

Well, then he'd maneuver away from Kirby, and not hit him.

Right, and using Sleep doesn't make you invulnerable to Sonic spinning at high speeds. See my point now?

Kirby's durability + healing items will help with the spinning at high speeds.

Plot armor, and the rest of the series.

Squishy skin.

Prove it.

A light speed buzzsaw attack can't attack the side of a whole planet.

Prove it.

The explosion hit Kirby's body, and the body was shown to take no effect from it. Sonic's attacks would hit Kirby's body, and therefore, the body would take no effect from them.

No, Kirby caused Sectonia to explode, making it "his" attack.

I can cause a glass window to break by punching it. The window breaking isn't my attack.

It defeated the rest of Sectonia's plants and all on the planet. Worth noting is that it doesn't actually destroy anything on the planet other than these plants, by the way, meaning that either the explosion is rather weak, only affects the plants, or this is a case of friendly fire/plot armor.

We don't really see what it did to the planet, as we observed it from far away. The explosion also launched Kirby high into the air, so it obviously has a greater effect than destroying plants.

And Giga Bowser is too heavy.

Kirby isn't.

No, he's on the ground, about to get covered up by the Clown Car. The context is Kirby dodging the Clown Car.

Kirby teleporting onto Bowser > Clown Car.

"Even if Bowser could put the Clown Car over Kirby, he'd just throw it away and out of Bowser's reach."

This was taking into account the fact that Kirby can teleport onto Bowser.

How does that correlate to the Clown Car being on top of Bowser?

Kirby is on top of Bowser. Clown Car is on top of Kirby. Therefore, Clown Car is on top of Bowser.

I don't see him crashing without tumbling into the ground.

Then Kirby could always fly away from Bowser instead of crashing.

Yes, one of shock. That doesn't mean that he's at his senses.

Being shocked doesn't mean you aren't at your senses.

Kirby still has to turn constantly, and Bowser could vary the speed of his rotation to throw Kirby off.

Kirby would only have to turn once to fly into the hole. Bowser can't vary his speed at mach speeds, nor can he vary his speed to mach speeds.

Also, it's not like Bowser would be spinning around the whole time, or nothing would happen in the battle.

He could also get worn out/dizzy.

Mario has no signs of slowing down even when crushing the tallest stacks of blocks, showing that he could crush much more than that.

What's the tallest stack we've actually seen Mario crush through?

When does he "shrink and push himself" through a nearly nonexistent crack?

Now. Canon sources have been provided.

In that case, Kirby isn't pink.

That sentence doesn't make sense. Kirby being pink isn't proved by the artwork, it is the artwork.

No, Schwarz's attack =/= a black hole.

If we've got word that it's a black hole, and it has the qualities of a black hole, it's obviously a black hole.

And how is that relevant?

A match can make a car explode, but it can't make a plank (less durable) explode. This means that matches don't have the power to make things explode, that is the car's reaction to matches.

"I hope you can rescue the Grand Stars."
A) The Hungry Luma galaxies don't contain Grand Stars.
B) This is Rosalina talking, not the Lumas.
C) This doesn't mention any intent of helping Mario in the way you describe.

Oh. Well, it is rather obvious that the intent of becoming galaxies is not to use hazards, or Mario wouldn't go there/the Lumas wouldn't let him go there.

It is here.

Circular reasoning.

Separate energy reserves.

Separate energy reserves.

Why would Pokemon have a reserve with a bit of fire, and a reserve with a lot of fire? That makes no sense whatsoever.

It depends on how deep it is.

Most manholes aren't that deep.

Right. A hole with black coloration and a purple aura that sucks Kirby in and kills him is.

Right. A celestial black hole.

Those are still built to work around a specific storyline.

But not the main storyline, so they don't progress the story.

It is here.

More circular reasoning, I see.

I'm covered with squishy skin (as are most people), and yet I doubt that I could survive a bomb's explosion.

Your skin isn't as squishy as Kirby's. He often squishes up a lot when he falls, and he's even been flattened.

Cutscenes are in-game; this is not. I don't see why you feel the need to classify this as either a cutscene or gameplay.

I'm not classifying it as a cutscene; I'm comparing it to one.

A person with a lot of squishy skin won't survive an explosion.

See above.

Lasers in Sonic also deal knockback, yet they don't knock Super Sonic back. I don't see why the properties of Baton would be any different. Has the beam been shown to affect enemies that are resistant to laser beams?

Knockback is a property of most attacks, and Super Sonic can resist most attacks. Controlling isn't a property of most attacks, so Super Sonic shouldn't be able to resist it..

The stuff about confusing and avoiding Kirby.

After Kirby observes Sonic's speed, he won't be confused by Sonic moving around the arena quickly.

Also, riding an Extreme Gear hoverboard could keep Sonic mobile while charging.

Can Sonic pilot a hoverboard when he's charging an attack? His feet aren't exactly usable.

He can't activate them in time.

He activates while Sonic is charging up.

He's being forced to here.

No one's forcing him to make observations.

An argument from ignorance is saying that something is false because it hasn't been proven true (even though there's evidence on the true side). You said he didn't have a concussion because we didn't see it.

We saw Olimar without a concussion, so that's my proof that something is false.

Anyways, you don't really "see" a concussion without the proper medical equipment and all.

You can observe the effects of a concussion.

It's when he first lands on the planet.

I watched the cutscene, and I didn't see that happen.

I'm saying that Olimar got a concussion.

Oh, I thought we were talking about Louie.

Having your head close to the glass doesn't prevent you from getting a concussion.

Concussions are gained after hitting your head hard. I think it would be pretty hard to hit your head on something that's 1/4 of an inch away from you.

Prove that Hocotate's police force (who are likely armed) are easier to defeat than the Pikmin enemies.

Titan Dweevil is larger and is armed with the Flare Cannon among other weapons, and he was defeated.

So you'd just ignore, say, a $100,000 debt they owed you (or whatever it was in Pikmin 2)?

No.

It's not from the game, though. It's from Olimar.

Who's in the game.

He's been there long enough in the previous game.

Not necessarily, Pikmin can be completed in a lesser amount of time.

It's more the overall situation. The "losing your friend and having to save him before he gets eaten" thing does contribute, though.

The thing that Olimar wrote in the journal was rather calm. Olimar seemed quite excited and enthusiastic, things that he wouldn't really be if he was worried to much about his friend.

Pikmin 2 just adds to that.

Olimar is insane because of time. There isn't much time in Pikmin 2, so not really any adding.

Concussions are caused by hitting the head. Olimar hits his head. Therefore, Olimar likely suffered a concussion.

See above.

Olimar is in a dangerous situation. Dangerous situations cause stress. Therefore, Olimar is likely in stress.

Dangerous situations cause fright, not stress.

Also, I'd like to bring up PTSD, or post-traumatic stress disorder. It's a rather common condition (about 3 million cases in the U.S. per year), and is basically a place, object, etc triggering memories of a traumatic situation. It can last for months or even years, and can cause, among other things, hallucinations. Olimar was definitely in a traumatic situation in Pikmin 1, and since it lasts for such a long time, it wouldn't wear off between these close games. Olimar is visiting the same planet where he was traumatized, and the "ripping through spacetime" deal sounds like a hallucination (especially since it's not even hinted at elsewhere in the game). Coincidence? I think not.

Did the events of the first Pikmin game actually traumatize him though?

How about the physical proof of Sonic not being inside the capsule when it exploded?

The physical proof here would be the sharpness of the slicer.

However many Lumas there are.

So one Star Bit per Luma?

I don't think that happens in Galaxy, but I'd have to double check.

I'm guessing that's because there's not a multitude being shot all at once in one place.

Rosalina's TK prevents Kirby from escaping, and I don't see how Kirby could toss Rosalina to get past the Starman.

TK prevents Kirby from escaping what?Rosalina's fall could have as much force as a crushing wall, so it could work.

Except Sonic is constantly attacking, leaving Marth no chance to get the swords back.

He only needs to get his hand on Falchion for Sonic's quickest attacks to have no effect, and the projectiles can be dodged.

How exactly?

Grabbing him.

The Werehog form was a result of Dark Gaia's influence.

So wouldn't that mean regular Sonic can be influenced? He's influenced to be transformed.

There's definitely something there to possess; Sonic loses no intelligence in Werehog form.

He's feral, so he'd be wild. Hard to control, basically.

A) The flame helped make the sword, and it doesn't have the flame's power.

By power, do you mean force? The sword would have about the same amount of force as the flame.

B) A dull dagger could be made using a hammer, and it wouldn't have the same amount of force.

A dull dagger isn't made to the best of its potential, unlike these spheres.

Power Bomb. /battle

's Counter: Hypernova
Kirby can inhale Samus while in Morph Ball mode.
's Counter: Ninja
Kirby can go intangible while teleporting.
's Counter: Attacking
The Power Bomb's charge is cancelled when Samus is attacked.

The user of Chaos Control can move things while it's active; air molecules, for example, don't get in the way or anything.

Air molecules are intangible, they wouldn't get in the way anyways.

Ah, right. It's still the more recent game, or latest "version" of the canon.

We'll see.

I don't see why they would be treated differently from Marth.

So they should both get skills.

We’re using the real Hero-King Marth rather than the doppelgangers (there’s at least two Marths and One Tiki despite Tiki still being alive at the time of the game) in Awakening and Marth’s original games lacked a skill system. If you used one of the multiple Marth Einherjars then you would not have any of the Spheres at all.

I'd say they're all the same Marth.

Activation chance is somewhere around a 16% chance for Robin and a 27% chance for Lucina (thanks to Rightful King). If Brave weapons are involved (weapons that grant an extra consecutive strike) the chances rise to 29.5% and 46.7% respectively. So yes that would be highly effective against the majority of the cast.

Interesting.

Kirby’s squishier. You'd be surprised at what a human being can live through.

Yep.

I don't see how being squishy would help one survive a planet-sized explosion.

The explosion causes the body to squish up, but not break.

Does Marth ever use skills in his games?

Yep.

In that case, Mega Man gets unlimited ammo, Sonic gets unlimited Rings, Mario gets unlimited Flower Points and such (from the RPGs), etc etc.

I'd actually be okay with all of that, but Rings are a different thing entirely.

 

[Munomario777]

All right, so I'm going to ask if Sonic has ever done this before. Also, what about sense move? It's clearly not coming from the suit, as Samus can perform this outside of her armor. Her integration with Chozo DNA and the fact that the Chozo possess psychic abilities would highly suggest Samus' sense move is some sort of precognition.

How quick are Samus's movements with Sense Move? Also, the Light Speed Attack still follows moving enemies.

That honestly makes no difference. If Sonic is traveling 299,792,458 m/s, and if everything isn't blowing up, then maintaining our physics with lore means Sonic must be massless when he travels at light speed, but not when he comes into direct contact with his opponent.

Game physics show that Sonic moves at light speed without blowing things up, so that's what we're working with.

While that's interesting, it's no surprise as the Flash might be an inspiration for similar abilities. Even Quicksilver from Marvel can vibrate his molecules to phase through objects and obviously has a superior reaction time to many people who are speedsters. Of course, not all gain their speed from the Speed Force. Superman is one example of this.

Right. By the way, I've just remembered something interesting. In Sonic Colors for the DS, Sonic meets E-123 Omega, the most advanced of Dr. Robotnik's E-Series robots. Omega says that Sonic is approaching light speed (he just completed a time trial mission IIRC), and Sonic replies saying that light speed is "no challenge". However, character quotes can be unreliable, so I won't base my claim off them entirely. Instead, I'll refer to Sonic Unleashed. I've mentioned this in the past, but I'd like to reiterate here. In that game, the checkpoints measure Sonic's current speed in "SPD" (not miles per hour). For a point of comparison, the Light Speed Dash clocks in at 396 SPD. Meanwhile, Sonic's running approaches about 2,800 SPD. That's about seven times the Light Speed Dash, and by extension the speed of light. Forget the Light Speed Attack; the Sonic Boost is where it's at!

Kirby can inhale Samus in less than a couple of seconds. Morph Ball is a meter (3 feet) tall, so Hypernova Kirby can inhale it.

Samus could avoid Kirby in ball form. Dryn, can Samus release the Power Bomb without charging up for a couple of seconds?

The shield is made specifically for blocking off Trick and the like. Starman isn't.

Prove that Protect is specifically made to fend off Trick.

Trick ≠ attack. It isn't violent in any way.

This is assuming that there's no resistance from the person holding the item.

No one anticipates you taking over the world, and you aren't on the brink of taking it over either.

How was Mewtwo on the brink of doing what you say he was?

We're seeing Super Sonic's resistance to force. He can't resist the force of the wall, so he can't resist the superior force of Mewtwo's beam.

Resistance to crushing =/= resistance to a laser beam. I think Perfect Chaos fired one in the final boss of Sonic Adventure, and I don't think that that damages Super Sonic.

During the actual launch, he can, because he is there.

And after a few seconds, he cannot. Again, I fail to see how this is relevant.

You use the force of your finger to push the button, not launch the rocket. The thing that actually launches the rocket is the fire, which has enough force to launch the rocket.

Right. Kirby = finger, button = defeating Marx, and fire = Marx's energy.

That isn't really relevant, because Kirby didn't see the speed of the summon before the summon.

He would the second time he uses it.

Really? I could make a sad/angry face in that time.

Character expressions aren't often shown in games (i.e. when you miss a moving platform you needed to cross a pit, Mario is still all jolly and everything).

The things we see him do are flying and slashing. Both things the actual MK has done.

In that case, Mario has Sonic's abilities since both can run and jump.

But then, he wouldn't be able to hit Kirby anyways.

He could simply turn around once he's behind Kirby.

Well, then he'd maneuver away from Kirby, and not hit him.

No, he'd maneuver around the Hypernova vortex and attack Kirby from behind.

Kirby's durability + healing items will help with the spinning at high speeds.

He's either dead or asleep at this point. Once Sonic gets Kirby one time, he's sent tumbling backwards, stunned by the impact, and Sonic can get in the rest of the hits he needs with his speed.

Squishy skin.

People have squishy skin. Point?

A light speed buzzsaw attack can't attack the side of a whole planet.

Right. The force is instead concentrated into one area, which in reality makes it all the more deadly.

The explosion hit Kirby's body, and the body was shown to take no effect from it. Sonic's attacks would hit Kirby's body, and therefore, the body would take no effect from them.

All other attacks throughout the series hit Kirby's body, and Kirby is harmed by then.

I can cause a glass window to break by punching it. The window breaking isn't my attack.

Real life has no concept of attack ownership. In fact, this argument won't go anywhere because the concept of attack ownership isn't clearly defined in the Kirby series.

We don't really see what it did to the planet, as we observed it from far away.

We observe the planet from far away after a Megaton Punch, yet we see what that did to the planet.

The explosion also launched Kirby high into the air, so it obviously has a greater effect than destroying plants.

So your basis for the explosion being powerful is the fact that it launches Kirby into the air?

Kirby isn't.

How is Kirby's weight relevant to this?

Kirby teleporting onto Bowser > Clown Car.

This was taking into account the fact that Kirby can teleport onto Bowser.

Kirby is on top of Bowser. Clown Car is on top of Kirby. Therefore, Clown Car is on top of Bowser.

Then Bowser simply attacks Kirby while he's on top of him. Homing flames should do the trick.

Then Kirby could always fly away from Bowser instead of crashing.

The context here is Kirby going for Bowser's eye, and Bowser closing it just before Kirby hits. Can Kirby stop the Warp Star that quickly?

Being shocked doesn't mean you aren't at your senses.

Then why can't Kirby act before landing?

Kirby would only have to turn once to fly into the hole. Bowser can't vary his speed at mach speeds, nor can he vary his speed to mach speeds.

Kirby is constantly going in a circle, since Bowser is rotating. I don't see why Bowser wouldn't be able to speed up or slow down his rotation.

Also, it's not like Bowser would be spinning around the whole time, or nothing would happen in the battle.

Right; this is only when Kirby's attacking with certain techniques.

He could also get worn out/dizzy.

He wouldn't have to keep at this for that long.

What's the tallest stack we've actually seen Mario crush through?

Not sure. I'd have to go check.

Now. Canon sources have been provided.

Provide a canonical source for Kirby "shrinking and push himself" through a nearly nonexistent crack.

That sentence doesn't make sense. Kirby being pink isn't proved by the artwork, it is the artwork.

The same could be said for Schwarz's lack of distortion.

If we've got word that it's a black hole, and it has the qualities of a black hole, it's obviously a black hole.

It might be a Kirby version of a black hole, but it's clearly not the same thing as a real life black hole. Same goes to the Mario Galaxy black holes, although those more closely resemble the real-life equivalent.

A match can make a car explode, but it can't make a plank (less durable) explode. This means that matches don't have the power to make things explode, that is the car's reaction to matches.

Right. Car = Marx, and match = Kirby.

Oh. Well, it is rather obvious that the intent of becoming galaxies is not to use hazards, or Mario wouldn't go there/the Lumas wouldn't let him go there.

That might not be the intent (I think they're just in this for the Star Bits), but it's a consistent byproduct at the very least.

Circular reasoning.

What I'm saying is, just because something hasn't been done before doesn't mean that it can't be done at all (especially with something like a way of measuring energy reserves).

Why would Pokemon have a reserve with a bit of fire, and a reserve with a lot of fire? That makes no sense whatsoever.

A lot of things in games make no sense. A good example is Mario and co. just standing there while Peach is getting kidnapped (for example, the intro to NSMBU).

Most manholes aren't that deep.

Some are.

Right. A celestial black hole.

Last I checked, Schwarz isn't in outer space.

But not the main storyline, so they don't progress the story.

It's still progressing the story. Things are occurring.

More circular reasoning, I see.

See above.

Your skin isn't as squishy as Kirby's. He often squishes up a lot when he falls, and he's even been flattened.

So if a chunk of Play-Doh came alive, it would be able to survive a planet-sized explosion?

I'm not classifying it as a cutscene; I'm comparing it to one.

Ah, I see.

Knockback is a property of most attacks, and Super Sonic can resist most attacks. Controlling isn't a property of most attacks, so Super Sonic shouldn't be able to resist it..

I don't see the logic in this.

After Kirby observes Sonic's speed, he won't be confused by Sonic moving around the arena quickly.

He likely wouldn't be able to track him in the first place at those speeds.

Chaos Control's time freezing could also work for the charge time.

Can Sonic pilot a hoverboard when he's charging an attack? His feet aren't exactly usable.

He could just keep cruising in a straight line.

He activates while Sonic is charging up.

Time freezing prevents this.

No one's forcing him to make observations.

He's being forced to stay on the planet and work the debt off.

We saw Olimar without a concussion, so that's my proof that something is false.

How can you tell that he doesn't have a concussion?

You can observe the effects of a concussion.

Right. When do you observe that Olimar does not have a concussion?

I watched the cutscene, and I didn't see that happen.

I could have sworn that Olimar tumbled out of the ship upon landing.

Concussions are gained after hitting your head hard. I think it would be pretty hard to hit your head on something that's 1/4 of an inch away from you.

The force of the impact the glass is experiencing from hitting the ground is being transferred to Olimar's head since they're so close.

Titan Dweevil is larger and is armed with the Flare Cannon among other weapons, and he was defeated.

One bullet to the head and Olimar is out cold.

No.

Then why should the President?

Who's in the game.

I'm in the United States, yet my statements don't reflect the position of the U.S. as a whole.

Not necessarily, Pikmin can be completed in a lesser amount of time.

When does Olimar acquire the knife in Pikmin 2? I'm curious if that combined with the average playthrough of Pikmin 1 equals the amount of time after which Olimar goes nutty in the first game.

The thing that Olimar wrote in the journal was rather calm. Olimar seemed quite excited and enthusiastic, things that he wouldn't really be if he was worried to much about his friend.

Has he faced the more... troubling parts of PNF-404 (i.e. monsters, caves, etc) by this point?

Olimar is insane because of time. There isn't much time in Pikmin 2, so not really any adding.

Pikmin 1 + Pikmin 2 = enough time to go nutty.

Dangerous situations cause fright, not stress.

http://www.m.webmd.com/a-to-z-guides/causes-of-stress

Did the events of the first Pikmin game actually traumatize him though?

I'd imagine that nearly getting killed by giant monsters would do that to a guy.

The physical proof here would be the sharpness of the slicer.

Since when does a sharp blade equal ripping through space and time?

So one Star Bit per Luma?

No, more like a steady stream.

I'm guessing that's because there's not a multitude being shot all at once in one place.

With Co-Star mode, you can shoot two overlapping streams.

TK prevents Kirby from escaping what?

The Mega Mushroom.

Rosalina's fall could have as much force as a crushing wall, so it could work.

Mhm.

He only needs to get his hand on Falchion for Sonic's quickest attacks to have no effect, and the projectiles can be dodged.

Marth would probably be off his feet from Sonic Wind, and if not, Chaos Control's time freezing should do the trick.

Sonic Wind follows its target. When Marth moves, so does the deadly vortex of wind that's closing in on him.

Grabbing him.

Sonic could either teleport out or just break free like in the Unleashed opening.

So wouldn't that mean regular Sonic can be influenced? He's influenced to be transformed.

His body is influenced, not his mind. It seems that what normally would affect someone mentally instead affects Sonic physically.

He's feral, so he'd be wild. Hard to control, basically.

Except he's not. His personality is still intact.

By power, do you mean force? The sword would have about the same amount of force as the flame.

It doesn't carry over. A sword could be forged in the depths of a volcano, but it doesn't necessarily have that much power.

A dull dagger isn't made to the best of its potential, unlike these spheres.

A sharp, small dagger then.

's Counter: Hypernova
Kirby can inhale Samus while in Morph Ball mode.

Instant Power Bomb (I believe the charging is exclusive to Other M).

's Counter: Ninja
Kirby can go intangible while teleporting.

Consecutive Power a Bombs outlast the intangibility.

's Counter: Attacking
The Power Bomb's charge is cancelled when Samus is attacked.

See above.

Air molecules are intangible, they wouldn't get in the way anyways.

They're not intangible; otherwise, drag wouldn't exist.

The explosion causes the body to squish up, but not break.

See above.

I'd actually be okay with all of that, but Rings are a different thing entirely.

I'd rather respect in-game ammo limits.

 

[Warlock*G]

Tabuu is canonically the strongest character in Smash. He turned every other character into a trophy without even exerting himself.

 

[Munomario777]

Tabuu is canonically the strongest character in Smash. He turned every other character in a trophy without even exerting himself.

We're talking mainly about playable characters, not bosses. Tabuu was still thwarted in the end anyways, since his wings being damaged leads to him being unable to use his Off Waves. Plus, they're avoidable even without the wing damage.

 

[Warlock*G]

We're talking mainly about playable characters, not bosses.

1) Mainly, but not exclusively.

Tabuu was still thwarted in the end anyways, since his wings being damaged leads to him being unable to use his Off Waves.

2) I see arguments about "character x being in state a" vs "character y being in state b" all the time. Which state or version of a character is chosen for an argument is ultimately a matter of preference.

Plus, they're avoidable even without the wing damage.

3) lol no

 

[Munomario777]

1) Mainly, but not exclusively.

The discussion right now centers on playable characters, although there's nothing stopping you from talking about bosses and the like if you want to.

2) I see arguments about "character x being in state a" vs "character y being in state b" all the time. Which state or version of a character is chosen for an argument is ultimately a matter of preference.

Tabuu starts in his fully powered form (no wing damage), but his wings are still vulnerable if you can get close enough.

3) lol no

They seem like flat discs that could easily be jumped over or dodged via a different method, and they're very telegraphed. Plus, they're avoidable in the actual boss fight.

 

[Crystanium]

How quick are Samus's movements with Sense Move? Also, the Light Speed Attack still follows moving enemies.

Quick enough to avoid energy beams from space pirates. Energy can come in different forms, so the question is if it's mechanical energy or electromagnetic radiation. The super Zebesians fire beams similar to that of the wave beam, since it can pass through glass, just like Samus' wave beam in MOM. Using my argument from before about the wave beam firing x-rays or gamma rays (or even radio waves) would mean they're firing at light speed. And since things that are massless must travel at light speed without the repercussions that come with an object that contains mass, this wouldn't be a problem.

If such is the case, then does this mean Samus has nanosecond reaction time? There are a few who have argued that this is so based on the fact that Samus makes movements in the light shaft when she's traveling from one location on Aether to the next. I personally don't think so, but rather, I think the sense move is simply precognition, similar to the spider sense in that Samus reacts to imminent danger. This would mean Samus is actually "aim-dodging" for a lack of better word, rather than dodging the attack as it comes her way.

Game physics show that Sonic moves at light speed without blowing things up, so that's what we're working with.

And that's fine, but that does not negate the argument that when Sonic travels at light speed, that he's becoming massless while doing so and regaining mass as he makes direct contact.

Right. By the way, I've just remembered something interesting. In Sonic Colors for the DS, Sonic meets E-123 Omega, the most advanced of Dr. Robotnik's E-Series robots. Omega says that Sonic is approaching light speed (he just completed a time trial mission IIRC), and Sonic replies saying that light speed is "no challenge". However, character quotes can be unreliable, so I won't base my claim off them entirely. Instead, I'll refer to Sonic Unleashed. I've mentioned this in the past, but I'd like to reiterate here. In that game, the checkpoints measure Sonic's current speed in "SPD" (not miles per hour). For a point of comparison, the Light Speed Dash clocks in at 396 SPD. Meanwhile, Sonic's running approaches about 2,800 SPD. That's about seven times the Light Speed Dash, and by extension the speed of light. Forget the Light Speed Attack; the Sonic Boost is where it's at!

This was addressed tens of pages ago. I wouldn't rely on the SPD because that's not an accurate measurement of Sonic's running speed. First, if 396 SPD is translated as "speed of light", then Sonic wouldn't need the light speed shoes or the ancient light, or the light chip because Sonic would naturally run faster than light. Second, in Sonic Unleashed, the game uses a similar feature to that of F-Zero GX where "snaking" will increase the speed of the vehicle by taking advantage of traveling diagonal, thereby increasing the SPD, when in reality, running to an angle would cause acceleration, which in turn would somewhat slow down Sonic, but not too significantly. I'm fine with Sonic being able to travel at light speed, but if we're applying physics to lore, then Sonic has to be massless during that time.

Samus could avoid Kirby in ball form. Dryn, can Samus release the Power Bomb without charging up for a couple of seconds?

In Metroid Prime and Metroid Prime 2: Echoes, activating the power bomb is instant. The hypernova wouldn't work against Samus because in Metroid Prime, there are creatures called jelzaps that are able to suck enemies in. This includes Samus. But, after Samus acquires the gravity suit, this suction ability doesn't work on Samus anymore. She'll remain in the same spot, whereas without the gravity suit, she's pulled in. Honestly, in order to pull in someone whose total mass is 190.99 kg., you'll need a high suctioning ability. So jelzaps aren't to be dismissed and are probably a good comparison to Kirby's hypernova. If that doesn't work, though, the boost ball can help Samus escape, since when Metroid Prime uses its snare beams, Samus can use the boost ball to break away.

 

[Munomario777]

Quick enough to avoid energy beams from space pirates. Energy can come in different forms, so the question is if it's mechanical energy or electromagnetic radiation. The super Zebesians fire beams similar to that of the wave beam, since it can pass through glass, just like Samus' wave beam in MOM. Using my argument from before about the wave beam firing x-rays or gamma rays (or even radio waves) would mean they're firing at light speed. And since things that are massless must travel at light speed without the repercussions that come with an object that contains mass, this wouldn't be a problem.

They move at the speeds shown in-game as per the rule.

If such is the case, then does this mean Samus has nanosecond reaction time? There are a few who have argued that this is so based on the fact that Samus makes movements in the light shaft when she's traveling from one location on Aether to the next. I personally don't think so, but rather, I think the sense move is simply precognition, similar to the spider sense in that Samus reacts to imminent danger. This would mean Samus is actually "aim-dodging" for a lack of better word, rather than dodging the attack as it comes her way.

That seems likely.

And that's fine, but that does not negate the argument that when Sonic travels at light speed, that he's becoming massless while doing so and regaining mass as he makes direct contact.

I could see that happening for the Light Speed Dash, since Sonic isn't affected by gravity while travelling across trails of Rings.

This was addressed tens of pages ago. I wouldn't rely on the SPD because that's not an accurate measurement of Sonic's running speed. First, if 396 SPD is translated as "speed of light", then Sonic wouldn't need the light speed shoes or the ancient light, or the light chip because Sonic would naturally run faster than light.

They have functions other than light speed travel. The Light Speed Dash allows Sonic to defy gravity and go along trails of Rings, and the Light Speed Attack helps for attacking groups of enemies.

Second, in Sonic Unleashed, the game uses a similar feature to that of F-Zero GX where "snaking" will increase the speed of the vehicle by taking advantage of traveling diagonal, thereby increasing the SPD, when in reality, running to an angle would cause acceleration, which in turn would somewhat slow down Sonic, but not too significantly.

Do you have a source for this?

I'm fine with Sonic being able to travel at light speed, but if we're applying physics to lore, then Sonic has to be massless during that time.

Sonic clearly isn't massless during this time; he's affected by gravity as much as he is normally.

In Metroid Prime and Metroid Prime 2: Echoes, activating the power bomb is instant. The hypernova wouldn't work against Samus because in Metroid Prime, there are creatures called jelzaps that are able to suck enemies in. This includes Samus. But, after Samus acquires the gravity suit, this suction ability doesn't work on Samus anymore. She'll remain in the same spot, whereas without the gravity suit, she's pulled in. Honestly, in order to pull in someone whose total mass is 190.99 kg., you'll need a high suctioning ability. So jelzaps aren't to be dismissed and are probably a good comparison to Kirby's hypernova. If that doesn't work, though, the boost ball can help Samus escape, since when Metroid Prime uses its snare beams, Samus can use the boost ball to break away.

I see. Good to know.

 

[Wyzill]

The Super Smash Bros. Games balances out nintendo characters, but which one is the strongest? In my opinion, I'd say it's Mewtwo, with Pit coming at a close second. What do you guys think?

I guess Kirby, because of you know, surviving the planet explosion thing...

But maybe Lucas and Ness, as well as possibly Rosalina?

 

[Nerdicon]

AGHHH WHAT HAPPENED! MY OLD STOMPING GROUNDS! I BLAME END OF COURSE TESTING!!!
I'm really confused right now, I need to go look over the other posts...this may take a while...

 

[Reckless Godwin 2.0]

I'd say they're all the same Marth.

I'd actually be okay with all of that, but Rings are a different thing entirely.

So Marth can be at two places at once? You can see a Prince Marth and a King Marth at the bottom of this section http://fireemblem.wikia.com/wiki/Lost_Bloodlines_3#Unit_Information . ShadowLBlue and I went with the decision to ignore the http://fireemblem.wikia.com/wiki/Einherjar#Description for debating purposes due to stuff like this.

Agreed since Rings are directly tied to health rather than ammo.

Right. By the way, I've just remembered something interesting. In Sonic Colors for the DS, Sonic meets E-123 Omega, the most advanced of Dr. Robotnik's E-Series robots. Omega says that Sonic is approaching light speed (he just completed a time trial mission IIRC), and Sonic replies saying that light speed is "no challenge". However, character quotes can be unreliable, so I won't base my claim off them entirely. Instead, I'll refer to Sonic Unleashed. I've mentioned this in the past, but I'd like to reiterate here. In that game, the checkpoints measure Sonic's current speed in "SPD" (not miles per hour). For a point of comparison, the Light Speed Dash clocks in at 396 SPD. Meanwhile, Sonic's running approaches about 2,800 SPD. That's about seven times the Light Speed Dash, and by extension the speed of light. Forget the Light Speed Attack; the Sonic Boost is where it's at!

Approaching Light Speed doesn’t tell us much of anything.

What unit of measurement is SPD?

Seven times the speed of Light!? I call bull, Sonic doesn't move at warp speed and I wouldn't trust the developers at Sega to get that right!



Robin and Lucina will want Iote’s Shield (skill) if they take to the air on a mount http://fireemblem.wikia.com/wiki/Iote's_Shield_(Skill). Alternatively Bowbreaker may suffice http://fireemblem.wikia.com/wiki/Bowbreaker (there is also a similar skill for swords). They are a must for dealing with archers like Link.

Just to let you guys know, explosions are remarkably inefficient due to the fact that the victim only gets hit by a fraction of the blast. A 10 megaton punch would be far deadlier than a 10 megaton bomb, so keep this in mind.

@Dryn thanks for the Factfile debating rules http://www.factpile.com/2812-factpile-debating-rules/ . I’m sure that everyone here should do a quick review of that page.

What kind of gun is Mii Gunner supposed to have?

Should Dr. Mario be treated the same as regular Mario?

 

[Kirby Dragons]

Samus could avoid Kirby in ball form. Dryn, can Samus release the Power Bomb without charging up for a couple of seconds?

Can Samus even move while charging the Power Bomb?

Prove that Protect is specifically made to fend off Trick.

The effect is, "The user gains the Protect status, preventing damage from enemy attacks and moves." Anything fits into the category of moves.

This is assuming that there's no resistance from the person holding the item.

What sort of resistance?

How was Mewtwo on the brink of doing what you say he was?

He was charging up energy and becoming more powerful.

Resistance to crushing =/= resistance to a laser beam.

Resistance to crushing and resistance to a laser beam are both the same stat (resistance).

I think Perfect Chaos fired one in the final boss of Sonic Adventure, and I don't think that that damages Super Sonic.

How powerful is the laser, exactly?

And after a few seconds, he cannot.

But during the actual launch, he can.

Again, I fail to see how this is relevant.

I'm just going against what you're saying.

Right. Kirby = finger, button = defeating Marx, and fire = Marx's energy.

How does the button equal defeating Marx? When does Marx's energy launch him?

He would the second time he uses it.

But not the first time, so Kirby doesn't know that the summon is faster, and doesn't summon him to fly him quickly through the level.

Character expressions aren't often shown in games (i.e. when you miss a moving platform you needed to cross a pit, Mario is still all jolly and everything).

Kirby didn't try to grab onto MK though, so it wasn't his intention for him to fly Kirby through the level.

In that case, Mario has Sonic's abilities since both can run and jump.

That makes no sense. Mario isn't a clone of Sonic.

He could simply turn around once he's behind Kirby.

No, he'd maneuver around the Hypernova vortex and attack Kirby from behind.

The Helper would block Sonic's attacks while Kirby turns around.

He's either dead or asleep at this point. Once Sonic gets Kirby one time, he's sent tumbling backwards, stunned by the impact, and Sonic can get in the rest of the hits he needs with his speed.

Since when does Spin Dash stun enemies with its impact? Sonic can't get in any more hits once he's asleep.

People have squishy skin. Point?

Can people be flattened? Do people's faces squish in when they fall? Do people lack bones?

Right. The force is instead concentrated into one area, which in reality makes it all the more deadly.

Sonic using Spin Dash is bigger than Kirby, so the force wouldn't be concentrated in one area.

All other attacks throughout the series hit Kirby's body, and Kirby is harmed by then.

Real life has no concept of attack ownership. In fact, this argument won't go anywhere because the concept of attack ownership isn't clearly defined in the Kirby series.

We observe the planet from far away after a Megaton Punch, yet we see what that did to the planet.

We aren't taking Megaton Punch as canon here.

So your basis for the explosion being powerful is the fact that it launches Kirby into the air?

That is my basis for it actually having an effect.

How is Kirby's weight relevant to this?

He can move himself under the crack, since he can move things much heavier.

Then Bowser simply attacks Kirby while he's on top of him. Homing flames should do the trick.

Kirby teleports away (Ninja) or shoots the fire to destroy it (Jet).

The context here is Kirby going for Bowser's eye, and Bowser closing it just before Kirby hits. Can Kirby stop the Warp Star that quickly?

I was talking about Jet Kirby. Though, it's not like Bowser can close his eyes in time to stop something traveling at 200 MPH anyways.

Then why can't Kirby act before landing?

The game doesn't let him.

Kirby is constantly going in a circle, since Bowser is rotating.

Kirby is going for a straight line, he'll only have to curve a slight bit to fly into a hole.

I don't see why Bowser wouldn't be able to speed up or slow down his rotation.

I never said he couldn't. I said he couldn't spin fast enough to account for Jet Kirby's speed.

Right; this is only when Kirby's attacking with certain techniques.

It doesn't really matter, because Kirby could fire the attack inside the hole.

He wouldn't have to keep at this for that long.

I imagine he would, because Kirby would continue to attack the shell. If Bowser ever comes out, he gets hit.

Not sure. I'd have to go check.

Okay.

By the way, Kirby as a stone didn't show any signs of slowing down when smashing through the Dedede Stone either, so the potency of Stone Smash would always be higher than the potency of Ground Pound.

Provide a canonical source for Kirby "shrinking and push himself" through a nearly nonexistent crack.

"Canon sources have been provided."

The same could be said for Schwarz's lack of distortion.

Lack of distortion isn't proved or disproved by the artwork, it is the artwork.

It might be a Kirby version of a black hole, but it's clearly not the same thing as a real life black hole. Same goes to the Mario Galaxy black holes, although those more closely resemble the real-life equivalent.

A Kirby black hole is a perfect match to a real black hole. Both are round, dark, and suck things in with intense killing power. How do SMG black holes resemble real black holes closer than Kirby black holes?

Right. Car = Marx, and match = Kirby.

Kirby can launch things a lot weaker than Marx, so the analogy is invalid.

That might not be the intent (I think they're just in this for the Star Bits), but it's a consistent byproduct at the very least.

Well, I still disagree, because Lumas haven't turned into most of the things in the galaxies. It only seems like they can become a few things, and not all the things.

What I'm saying is, just because something hasn't been done before doesn't mean that it can't be done at all (especially with something like a way of measuring energy reserves).

A lot of things in games make no sense. A good example is Mario and co. just standing there while Peach is getting kidnapped (for example, the intro to NSMBU).

Usually, the Pokemon series follows logic. Like how moves would logically act in reaction to other moves, that's taken into account.

Some are.

And all black holes have intense killing power. Unless all manholes have intense killing power, it's not necessarily a comparison.

Last I checked, Schwarz isn't in outer space.

It's still progressing the story. Things are occurring.

That doesn't mean it progresses the story.

So if a chunk of Play-Doh came alive, it would be able to survive a planet-sized explosion?

No, but only because Play-Doh is easily separable, unlike Kirby.

I don't see the logic in this.

Super Sonic negates the damage and knockback in all attacks, but not controlling.

He likely wouldn't be able to track him in the first place at those speeds.

He wouldn't have to do any tracking. He could lie on his back and inhale, so the suction would get him no matter where Sonic came in from.

Chaos Control's time freezing could also work for the charge time.

Then Kirby takes control of Sonic while he's activating Chaos Control.

He could just keep cruising in a straight line.

But if there aren't feet to lean the hoverboard forward, wouldn't he stay in the same place?

Time freezing prevents this.

Kirby would activate it during activation of Chaos Control, or when Sonic is approaching.

He's being forced to stay on the planet and work the debt off.

But not being forced to make observations.

How can you tell that he doesn't have a concussion?

Right. When do you observe that Olimar does not have a concussion?

I could have sworn that Olimar tumbled out of the ship upon landing.

The force of the impact the glass is experiencing from hitting the ground is being transferred to Olimar's head since they're so close.

Can you show me a video? I watched a cutscene of him landing on the planet, and I didn't see him tumbling at all.

One bullet to the head and Olimar is out cold.

Helmet. Also, the Pikmin could block the bullet or disarm the police force.

Then why should the President?

He shouldn't.

I'm in the United States, yet my statements don't reflect the position of the U.S. as a whole.

They would reflect the position of whatever you're talking about, however.

When does Olimar acquire the knife in Pikmin 2? I'm curious if that combined with the average playthrough of Pikmin 1 equals the amount of time after which Olimar goes nutty in the first game.

Near the very end of the game.

Has he faced the more... troubling parts of PNF-404 (i.e. monsters, caves, etc) by this point?

Yes, but I imagine he'd feel relief after defeating the monsters and passing the caves.

Pikmin 1 + Pikmin 2 = enough time to go nutty.

Actually, as shown in the descriptions for King of Bugs and Eternal Emerald Eye, Olimar is able to determine what is, and what isn't, crazy.

http://www.m.webmd.com/a-to-z-guides/causes-of-stress

That is the kind of fear caused by situations one could worry about happening to them, not situations that you just dealt with.

I'd imagine that nearly getting killed by giant monsters would do that to a guy.

That wasn't emotionally disturbing, and Olimar wasn't badly injured from the monsters, so no trauma.

Since when does a sharp blade equal ripping through space and time?

Sharp objects cut through a lot of things.

No, more like a steady stream.

So how many bits per stream?

With Co-Star mode, you can shoot two overlapping streams.

The reason they deflect each other is likely just a game mechanic.

The Mega Mushroom.

Rosalina will have to open the forcefield anyways, or she can't hit Kirby. Kirby could also teleport out.

Marth would probably be off his feet from Sonic Wind, and if not, Chaos Control's time freezing should do the trick.

Time freezing will do what trick?

Sonic Wind follows its target. When Marth moves, so does the deadly vortex of wind that's closing in on him.

I don't remember Sonic Wind being deadly, and Marth could grab the swords after taking the damage, and then heal.

Sonic could either teleport out or just break free like in the Unleashed opening.

Marth would have regained his swords by now.

His body is influenced, not his mind. It seems that what normally would affect someone mentally instead affects Sonic physically.

So would the Darksphere affect his body, as opposed to his mind?

Except he's not. His personality is still intact.

Regular Sonic isn't feral, so his personality has obviously been altered.

It doesn't carry over. A sword could be forged in the depths of a volcano, but it doesn't necessarily have that much power.

I imagine that this is different, it's actually made from a part of Naga.

A sharp, small dagger then.

That isn't made to the best of its potential either; it's small.

Consecutive Power a Bombs outlast the intangibility.

Kirby teleports inside the suit to avoid all Power Bombs.

They're not intangible; otherwise, drag wouldn't exist.

But they don't actually get in the way. Also, we don't really see the Sonic characters unfreeze air molecules, and objects don't move when the characters hit them.

I'd rather respect in-game ammo limits.

I wouldn't because I consider them to be game mechanics, but I have to anyways because I was outvoted on the rule.

So Marth can be at two places at once? You can see a Prince Marth and a King Marth at the bottom of this section http://fireemblem.wikia.com/wiki/Lost_Bloodlines_3#Unit_Information . ShadowLBlue and I went with the decision to ignore the http://fireemblem.wikia.com/wiki/Einherjar#Description for debating purposes due to stuff like this.

That could be Marth in different time periods. He was first a prince, but he was promoted to a king in different time periods.

What kind of gun is Mii Gunner supposed to have?

A mechanical arm gun.

Should Dr. Mario be treated the same as regular Mario?

In terms of stats and abilities, but not items.

 

[Crystanium]

They move at the speeds shown in-game as per the rule.

Then either Sonic doesn't run at light speed, or photons travel a speeds less than our light speed in the Sonicverse. Of course, you might say this is ridiculous because "lore" says Sonic can run at light speed, but "lore" also presents Sonic failing to meet this speed. All you're doing is picking and choosing what you think is beneficial for Sonic while ignoring other lore that shows something different. They're both lore.

If Sonic's speed is not accurately depicted in game play for game play purposes, then how much more when it comes to energy beams that must be made up of some kind of energy? It'd be very difficult for any player to dodge anything traveling at the speed of sound or the speed of light. The wave beam is the only beam known to be able to pass through solid objects, and when these super Zebesians show up using these beams, Adam authorizes Samus to activate her wave beam to fight back. Kind of odd, especially when this particular location requires the wave beam to proceed and easily dispatch joulions.

Space pirates are known for reverse engineering Samus' technology, as in the case of the attempted morph ball as well as the power, wave, ice, and plasma troopers. They're even known for using gravity suit technology. These things are types of technologies that Samus uses. Again, this isn't to prove that Samus has nanosecond reaction time. It's only to prove that Samus' sense move is some type of precognition that allows her to act before being attacked, and at the same time, prove that the beams Samus must dodge are traveling at light speed, which is what x-rays, gamma rays, and radio waves do.

I could see that happening for the Light Speed Dash, since Sonic isn't affected by gravity while travelling across trails of Rings.

Everything is affected by gravity, including light. Gravity is a ubiquitous force. You can be light-years away from Earth, but if you and Earth were the only objects with mass, there's going to still be gravity affecting both of you. Maybe you've seen the equation, F = Gm1m2/r^2.

They have functions other than light speed travel. The Light Speed Dash allows Sonic to defy gravity and go along trails of Rings, and the Light Speed Attack helps for attacking groups of enemies.

But these are emphasized in their ability to allow Sonic to travel at light speed.

Do you have a source for this?

Funnily, F-Zero GX was developed by Amusement Vision, which is owned by Sega, but no. All I know is that these two games aren't the only ones that manipulate speed by moving diagonal. I think it's called Chebyshev distance. You can check out a quick discussion here.

Sonic clearly isn't massless during this time; he's affected by gravity as much as he is normally.

Gravity affects massless particles.

 

[Munomario777]

Approaching Light Speed doesn’t tell us much of anything.

It tells us that he's far beyond supersonic, or even hypersonic speeds.

What unit of measurement is SPD?

It seems to be exclusive to the Sonic series, but our point of reference is that 396 of them equals light speed.

Seven times the speed of Light!? I call bull, Sonic doesn't move at warp speed and I wouldn't trust the developers at Sega to get that right!

That's what the checkpoints say.

Can Samus even move while charging the Power Bomb?

I'd imagine so, since she's just in her Morph ball form.

The effect is, "The user gains the Protect status, preventing damage from enemy attacks and moves." Anything fits into the category of moves.

Similarly, the Starman and other invincibility items are referred to as just that; invincibility items. Of course, this does come with limits (falling into lava for the Starman), and those are the exceptions we make to the "invincible" status. We don't see a Starman user get their items taken away from them, so it's not exempt from the invincibility status.

What sort of resistance?

A fight breaking out over Mewtwo stealing someone's items.

He was charging up energy and becoming more powerful.

Does he ever actually destroy what he planned to?

Resistance to crushing and resistance to a laser beam are both the same stat (resistance).

Solid steel cannot be crushed easily (or at all within a confined space), but is susceptible to laser cutting.

How powerful is the laser, exactly?

Here's a video of it.

But during the actual launch, he can.

For maybe a second. Again, I fail to see how him being at a disadvantage is relevant.

How does the button equal defeating Marx? When does Marx's energy launch him?

The button and defeating Marx are both triggers. Marx's energy (or some other outside force) launches Marx when Marx is launched.

But not the first time, so Kirby doesn't know that the summon is faster, and doesn't summon him to fly him quickly through the level.

Then why doesn't he the second time?

Kirby didn't try to grab onto MK though, so it wasn't his intention for him to fly Kirby through the level.

I'd keep my hands off of a fast-moving object with a sword if I were Kirby.

That makes no sense. Mario isn't a clone of Sonic.

Fair enough. How about Sonic and Shadow, then?

The Helper would block Sonic's attacks while Kirby turns around.

And Sonic would blast through the Helper. Steel robots show no resistance to the Boost, so I don't see why a tiny Helper would.

Since when does Spin Dash stun enemies with its impact? Sonic can't get in any more hits once he's asleep.

Kirby would be sent flying backwards from the impact. Sonic's willpower would prevent him from being asleep for too long. Of course, this is assuming that Kirby somehow survives an FTL attack from a razor-sharp buzzsaw of a hedgehog.

Can people be flattened? Do people's faces squish in when they fall? Do people lack bones?

Yes, sometimes, and usually not. Point?

Sonic using Spin Dash is bigger than Kirby, so the force wouldn't be concentrated in one area.

It's concentrated in a smaller area than the explosion. The explosion is spread out over the entire planet, whereas the Spin Dash concentrates its force onto an area of a few feet.

We aren't taking Megaton Punch as canon here.

Right. I'm just showing that the Kirby series isn't hesitant to show any damage Planet Popstar takes.

That is my basis for it actually having an effect.

This isn't Smash logic. A powerful gust of wind (i.e. a tornado) could blow me up into the air, but it doesn't damage me in any significant way.

He can move himself under the crack, since he can move things much heavier.

Brian Shaw can lift over 900 pounds, and he weights less than that. Can he pull himself into tiny cracks?

Kirby teleports away (Ninja) or shoots the fire to destroy it (Jet).

The fire would simply follow Kirby. Has Jet destroyed fireballs before?

I was talking about Jet Kirby. Though, it's not like Bowser can close his eyes in time to stop something traveling at 200 MPH anyways.

Ah, I see.

The game doesn't let him.

Or he's in shock after crashing into the ground at high speeds and feeling the full force of the impact.

Kirby is going for a straight line, he'll only have to curve a slight bit to fly into a hole.

Bowser is spinning, so Jet Kirby will constantly be going in circles.

I never said he couldn't. I said he couldn't spin fast enough to account for Jet Kirby's speed.

He could stop suddenly, sending Jet Kirby crashing into a wall.

It doesn't really matter, because Kirby could fire the attack inside the hole.

Can he curve them like he'd need to here?

I imagine he would, because Kirby would continue to attack the shell. If Bowser ever comes out, he gets hit.

He could ram into Kirby while spinning, damaging him with the spikes.

Okay.

By the way, Kirby as a stone didn't show any signs of slowing down when smashing through the Dedede Stone either, so the potency of Stone Smash would always be higher than the potency of Ground Pound.

Unless we find Mario crushing more blocks without stopping.

By the way, I'd like to bring up the Gold Flower. It turns whatever it touches into a Coin for Mario to collect, which would also work on Kirby.

"Canon sources have been provided."

Okay, quote the part where you provided a canon source for Kirby squeezing into a small crack.

Lack of distortion isn't proved or disproved by the artwork, it is the artwork.

Right. That's what you said with Kirby's color.

A Kirby black hole is a perfect match to a real black hole. Both are round, dark, and suck things in with intense killing power.

Real black holes don't:

• Have a lack of distortion near the center
• Have purple swirly things around them
• Exist inside of a head that doesn't get sucked in for some reason

How do SMG black holes resemble real black holes closer than Kirby black holes?

They're in space, completely black, have distortion around them (without a break in distortion near the center), etc.

Kirby can launch things a lot weaker than Marx, so the analogy is invalid.

He launched Marx sideways a tiny bit, and then he launched himself up into the planet.

Well, I still disagree, because Lumas haven't turned into most of the things in the galaxies. It only seems like they can become a few things, and not all the things.

Then how do they become all of the things at once when becoming a full galaxy?

Usually, the Pokemon series follows logic. Like how moves would logically act in reaction to other moves, that's taken into account.

https://www.google.com/search?q=illogical pokemon moves&oq=illogical pokemon&aqs=chrome.1.69i57j0l2.3296j0j1&sourceid=chrome&es_sm=122&ie=UTF-8#q=illogical pokemon

And all black holes have intense killing power. Unless all manholes have intense killing power, it's not necessarily a comparison.

Some manholes can be compared to all black holes.

Ah, my bad.

That doesn't mean it progresses the story.

It makes events happen in the story.

No, but only because Play-Doh is easily separable, unlike Kirby.

Has anything ever tried to separate Kirby, but failed?

Super Sonic negates the damage and knockback in all attacks, but not controlling.

Does Baton actually control minds, or is it just TK? We haven't seen Super Sonic face a TK user (such as Silver), but a bit of modding can help shed some light on the subject:

Of course, it is just a mod/hack, so take it with a grain of salt, but it's the best look we have.

He wouldn't have to do any tracking. He could lie on his back and inhale, so the suction would get him no matter where Sonic came in from.

Except from below. The Yellow Wisp turns Sonic into a drill that can pierce through surfaces.

Then Kirby takes control of Sonic while he's activating Chaos Control.

It's practically instant; refer to the video I linked during my discussion with Dryn.

But if there aren't feet to lean the hoverboard forward, wouldn't he stay in the same place?

He could charge up on the front of the Extreme Gear.

Kirby would activate it during activation of Chaos Control, or when Sonic is approaching.

See above.

But not being forced to make observations.

Who ever said anything about being forced to make observations?

Can you show me a video? I watched a cutscene of him landing on the planet, and I didn't see him tumbling at all.

Sure.

Helmet. Also, the Pikmin could block the bullet or disarm the police force.

Unless the glass has been shown to be bulletproof, it wouldn't protect him. The Pikmin would get shot at.

He shouldn't.

Right. Olimar doesn't pay off the debt and the President doesn't ignore it, and the company collapses and Olimar is unemployed.

They would reflect the position of whatever you're talking about, however.

No, they would reflect my position on the stance I'm talking about. Olimar saying something =/= the game telling us something.

Near the very end of the game.

And Olimar goes insane near the very end of Pikmin 1. I'm beginning to sense a pattern here...

Yes, but I imagine he'd feel relief after defeating the monsters and passing the caves.

And then he's back, and the relief is no more.

Actually, as shown in the descriptions for King of Bugs and Eternal Emerald Eye, Olimar is able to determine what is, and what isn't, crazy.

"Could he have been controlling that beast all along?! No... that's craziness!" - King of Bugs description
Different type of crazy.
"For example, why are some women so crazy about things that sparkle?" - Eternal Emerald Eye description
Again, different type of crazy.

That is the kind of fear caused by situations one could worry about happening to them, not situations that you just dealt with.

Right. Olimar is worried about Louie being killed, himself being eaten by beasts, his Pikmin friends being killed (which often happens depending on the player), the debt remaining unpaid, etc.

That wasn't emotionally disturbing, and Olimar wasn't badly injured from the monsters, so no trauma.

"Emotional and psychological trauma is the result of extraordinarily stressful events that shatter your sense of security, making you feel helpless and vulnerable in a dangerous world."
Olimar definitely felt helpless and vulnerable in the dangerous world of PNF-404. Without Pikmin, he'd be dead meat.

Sharp objects cut through a lot of things.

The fabric of time and space is not one of them.

So how many bits per stream?

They're rapid-fire.

The reason they deflect each other is likely just a game mechanic.

They don't deflect off of each other.

Rosalina will have to open the forcefield anyways, or she can't hit Kirby. Kirby could also teleport out.

Rosalina could use the force field to position Kirby just right for an attack, as well as waiting out invincibility and all. When Kirby teleports, Rosalina creates another field.

Time freezing will do what trick?

As in, it'll give Sonic time to attack Marth before he gets the sword again.

I don't remember Sonic Wind being deadly, and Marth could grab the swords after taking the damage, and then heal.

Sonic Wind deals damage over time to Marth. It's unnecessary here though, thanks to the Blue Tornado followed up by a Spin Attack.

Marth would have regained his swords by now.

And Sonic knocks them out again. Also, time freezing.

So would the Darksphere affect his body, as opposed to his mind?

Most likely. That or it wouldn't affect him at all.

Regular Sonic isn't feral, so his personality has obviously been altered.

No, his body is altered. His personality is the exact same.

I imagine that this is different, it's actually made from a part of Naga.

Oh, well that changes things.

That isn't made to the best of its potential either; it's small.

The materials are at full potential.

Kirby teleports inside the suit to avoid all Power Bombs.

Too tight of a fit.

But they don't actually get in the way.

If they were frozen in place, you couldn't move.

Also, we don't really see the Sonic characters unfreeze air molecules, and objects don't move when the characters hit them.

We don't see them unfreeze them because they can just move them aside. When does something resist moving while in Chaos Control, when it normally would move?

In terms of stats and abilities, but not items.

Agreed.

Then either Sonic doesn't run at light speed, or photons travel a speeds less than our light speed in the Sonicverse. Of course, you might say this is ridiculous because "lore" says Sonic can run at light speed, but "lore" also presents Sonic failing to meet this speed. All you're doing is picking and choosing what you think is beneficial for Sonic while ignoring other lore that shows something different. They're both lore.

When does lore state that Sonic is incapable of traveling at light speed?

If Sonic's speed is not accurately depicted in game play for game play purposes, then how much more when it comes to energy beams that must be made up of some kind of energy? It'd be very difficult for any player to dodge anything traveling at the speed of sound or the speed of light. The wave beam is the only beam known to be able to pass through solid objects, and when these super Zebesians show up using these beams, Adam authorizes Samus to activate her wave beam to fight back. Kind of odd, especially when this particular location requires the wave beam to proceed and easily dispatch joulions.

Space pirates are known for reverse engineering Samus' technology, as in the case of the attempted morph ball as well as the power, wave, ice, and plasma troopers. They're even known for using gravity suit technology. These things are types of technologies that Samus uses. Again, this isn't to prove that Samus has nanosecond reaction time. It's only to prove that Samus' sense move is some type of precognition that allows her to act before being attacked, and at the same time, prove that the beams Samus must dodge are traveling at light speed, which is what x-rays, gamma rays, and radio waves do.

Sonic is stated to move at certain speeds ("the speed of sound", "hypersonic speeds", "light speed", etc), whereas the things you're talking about are not.

Everything is affected by gravity, including light. Gravity is a ubiquitous force. You can be light-years away from Earth, but if you and Earth were the only objects with mass, there's going to still be gravity affecting both of you. Maybe you've seen the equation, F = Gm1m2/r^2.

Right, but light isn't affected by it in a noticeable way (at least on Earth).

But these are emphasized in their ability to allow Sonic to travel at light speed.

It's stated that they allow Sonic to dash along Rings at light speed. There's nothing implying that the light speed is exclusive to these items. Even so, they wouldn't necessarily be wrong; the Light Speed Dash originates in Sonic Adventure, whereas Sonic is first recorded at FTL speeds in Unleashed. For a while, it was Sonic's only method of light speed travel.

Funnily, F-Zero GX was developed by Amusement Vision, which is owned by Sega, but no. All I know is that these two games aren't the only ones that manipulate speed by moving diagonal. I think it's called Chebyshev distance. You can check out a quick discussion here.

Ah, wait, I think I know what you're talking about. Snaking with the Sonic Drift maneuver can increase Sonic's speed. I don't see why he couldn't perform this here. Nevertheless, I have found that going in a straight line and boosting, Sonic clocks in at around 1200 SPD. Three times light speed, not bad. Super Sonic would likely go faster than that, of course, but that should be enough for now.

Gravity affects massless particles.

Less mass equals less weight, and yet Sonic still weighs as much while boosting as he does while not boosting.

 

[Crystanium]

Can Samus even move while charging the Power Bomb?

Yes. Also, if you missed it . . .

In Metroid Prime and Metroid Prime 2: Echoes, activating the power bomb is instant. The hypernova wouldn't work against Samus because in Metroid Prime, there are creatures called jelzaps that are able to suck enemies in. This includes Samus. But, after Samus acquires the gravity suit, this suction ability doesn't work on Samus anymore. She'll remain in the same spot, whereas without the gravity suit, she's pulled in. Honestly, in order to pull in someone whose total mass is 190.99 kg., you'll need a high suctioning ability. So jelzaps aren't to be dismissed and are probably a good comparison to Kirby's hypernova. If that doesn't work, though, the boost ball can help Samus escape, since when Metroid Prime uses its snare beams, Samus can use the boost ball to break away.

Kirby has some useful attacks and even ability scrolls to up the damage quotient for specific abilities. One of the issues for Samus might be Kirby's mirror ability. Beams will likely be reflected, although I'm not too sure about missiles. They might be deflected, but I'm curious about how much damage this mirror ability can withstand. Is Kirby also quick enough to respond to Samus' beams and missiles? How will his mirror ability do against beams that can pass through solid objects? Finally, is Kirby really able to withstand 289.89 tons of TNT?

 

[Crystanium]

When does lore state that Sonic is incapable of traveling at light speed?

Game play demonstrates this. If you say it's that way to allow one to play the game without crashing into objects, I could respond the same as before: so are the projectiles in video games, otherwise it'd be impossible to complete the game without dying every time.

Sonic is stated to move at certain speeds ("the speed of sound", "hypersonic speeds", "light speed", etc), whereas the things you're talking about are not.

And these speeds probably differ from ours, considering light speed dash doesn't portray the way an object with mass should. I'll present my argument here.

• The nova beam is defined as a "high-frequency beam".
• "High frequency" falls under radio waves.
• Radio waves travel 299,792,458 m/s (the speed of light).
• The nova, light, and wave beam (in MP) all share the same arm cannon design.
• The nova, light, and wave beam (except in MP) can pass through solid objects like Phazite or enemies.
• The wave beam (in MP) is noted for its "erratic energy wavelength".
• Wavelengths fall under the electromagnetic spectrum, sound spectrum, or vibration spectrum.
• Considering the connection between the nova, light, and wave beam would suggest this is the electromagnetic spectrum.
• Therefore, the wave beam travels at 299,792,458 m/s.
• Only the nova, light, and wave beam are known technologies that pass through solid objects.
• The space pirates are known for reverse engineering Samus' technology based on the power, wave, ice, and plasma troopers, as well as attempting to create their own morph ball and the use of gravity technology by the aqua pirates.
• The super Zebesians, which are space pirates, are using beam weapons to attack Samus, beams that are capable of passing through the glass Samus is incapable of shooting through until she activates the wave beam.
• Therefore, it is highly probable that the super Zebesians are firing their own type of wave beams at Samus, which means Samus is capable of dodging them using sense move.

Right, but light isn't affected by it in a noticeable way (at least on Earth).

And Sonic is noticeably affected by gravity? That's unusual, since you said the light speed dash allows Sonic to defy gravity.

It's stated that they allow Sonic to dash along Rings at light speed. There's nothing implying that the light speed is exclusive to these items. Even so, they wouldn't necessarily be wrong; the Light Speed Dash originates in Sonic Adventure, whereas Sonic is first recorded at FTL speeds in Unleashed. For a while, it was Sonic's only method of light speed travel.

I've never seen Sonic use the light speed dash, except along rings.

Ah, wait, I think I know what you're talking about. Snaking with the Sonic Drift maneuver can increase Sonic's speed. I don't see why he couldn't perform this here. Nevertheless, I have found that going in a straight line and boosting, Sonic clocks in at around 1200 SPD. Three times light speed, not bad. Super Sonic would likely go faster than that, of course, but that should be enough for now.

Because it's a game mechanic. You're also assuming that the speed of light is that triple-digit number.

Less mass equals less weight, and yet Sonic still weighs as much while boosting as he does while not boosting.

As I said before, that's unusual, since you said the light speed dash allows Sonic to defy gravity.

 

[Munomario777]

Game play demonstrates this. If you say it's that way to allow one to play the game without crashing into objects, I could respond the same as before: so are the projectiles in video games, otherwise it'd be impossible to complete the game without dying every time.

Lore overrides gameplay when it comes to the speeds of objects.

And these speeds probably differ from ours, considering light speed dash doesn't portray the way an object with mass should. I'll present my argument here.

• The nova beam is defined as a "high-frequency beam".
• "High frequency" falls under radio waves.
• Radio waves travel 299,792,458 m/s (the speed of light).
• The nova, light, and wave beam (in MP) all share the same arm cannon design.
• The nova, light, and wave beam (except in MP) can pass through solid objects like Phazite or enemies.
• The wave beam (in MP) is noted for its "erratic energy wavelength".
• Wavelengths fall under the electromagnetic spectrum, sound spectrum, or vibration spectrum.
• Considering the connection between the nova, light, and wave beam would suggest this is the electromagnetic spectrum.
• Therefore, the wave beam travels at 299,792,458 m/s.
• Only the nova, light, and wave beam are known technologies that pass through solid objects.
• The space pirates are known for reverse engineering Samus' technology based on the power, wave, ice, and plasma troopers, as well as attempting to create their own morph ball and the use of gravity technology by the aqua pirates.
• The super Zebesians, which are space pirates, are using beam weapons to attack Samus, beams that are capable of passing through the glass Samus is incapable of shooting through until she activates the wave beam.
• Therefore, it is highly probable that the super Zebesians are firing their own type of wave beams at Samus, which means Samus is capable of dodging them using sense move.

The rules state that objects move at the speeds shown unless they're stated to move at that speed. Gameplay speeds overrule the speed of beams in real life.

And Sonic is noticeably affected by gravity? That's unusual, since you said the light speed dash allows Sonic to defy gravity.

No. I'm agreeing that the Light Speed Dash could possibly be making Sonic go massless.

I've never seen Sonic use the light speed dash, except along rings.

Right; that's the only time the technique can be used. The Light Speed Attack, likewise, is limited to homing in on enemies.

Because it's a game mechanic.

It's the only time Sonic's maximum speed is given an actual number.

You're also assuming that the speed of light is that triple-digit number.

Because the Light Speed Dash measures in at that number.

As I said before, that's unusual, since you said the light speed dash allows Sonic to defy gravity.

As I said before, I'm agreeing with you on the matter.

 

[Crystanium]

Lore overrides gameplay when it comes to the speeds of objects.

That's your personal opinion.

The rules state that objects move at the speeds shown unless they're stated to move at that speed. Gameplay speeds overrule the speed of beams in real life.

I honestly don't care about that rule and you know it. I've already provided my argument using lore and logic, which you didn't address. Otherwise, "light speed" isn't 299,792,458 m/s, it's something slower.

No. I'm agreeing that the Light Speed Dash could possibly be making Sonic go massless.

I'd say it's your best bet, considering all the issues (redshift, blueshift, becoming flatter, blowing up, Sonic's blindness) aren't showing up during its use.

Right; that's the only time the technique can be used. The Light Speed Attack, likewise, is limited to homing in on enemies.

Well, at least the LSA can be used at any time.

It's the only time Sonic's maximum speed is given an actual number.

Considering the SPD's association with a game mechanic makes it an unreliable indicator. For someone to be traveling multiple times faster than light makes no sense for him to slow down to the speed of light.

Because the Light Speed Dash measures in at that number.

Which again, makes no sense to have any abilities to increase one's speed to light speed, regardless of other special uses. Honestly, LSA wouldn't be necessary, since Sonic would be able to attack at light speed anyway. The fact that Sonic's known as the "hypersonic hedgehog" would tell us that Sonic's top speed is in the hypersonic range. It doesn't refer to him as the "light speed hedgehog", although he may achieve that some day without light speed shoes, ancient light, or a light chip.

 

[Munomario777]

That's your personal opinion.

No, it's the consensus of the rules voting.

I honestly don't care about that rule and you know it.

Then I won't discuss this matter with you.

I've already provided my argument using lore and logic, which you didn't address.

I addressed it by mentioning the rule that contradicts it.

Otherwise, "light speed" isn't 299,792,458 m/s, it's something slower.

Or "beam speed", as it were.

I'd say it's your best bet, considering all the issues (redshift, blueshift, becoming flatter, blowing up, Sonic's blindness) aren't showing up during its use.

Yes, that could very well be how the Light Speed Dash works, which explains how Sonic is unaffected by gravity during the dash. It could come in handy for reaching high-up foes and such.

Well, at least the LSA can be used at any time.

It does require the two-second charge time, unlike the Light Speed Dash in its appearances post-Sonic Adventure.

Considering the SPD's association with a game mechanic makes it an unreliable indicator.

I don't see how being tied to the Star Posts makes it inherently a game mechanic.

For someone to be traveling multiple times faster than light makes no sense for him to slow down to the speed of light.

Which again, makes no sense to have any abilities to increase one's speed to light speed, regardless of other special uses. Honestly, LSA wouldn't be necessary, since Sonic would be able to attack at light speed anyway.

The Boost doesn't have very good turning, so it would make sense to slow down a bit in order to travel along twisting trails of Rings or home in on close bunches of enemies.

The fact that Sonic's known as the "hypersonic hedgehog" would tell us that Sonic's top speed is in the hypersonic range. It doesn't refer to him as the "light speed hedgehog", although he may achieve that some day without light speed shoes, ancient light, or a light chip.

"Hypersonic" means above Mach 5.5, which definitely includes light speed. Also, that description was in Sonic Adventure, long before he learned the Boost.

 

[Kirby Dragons]

Similarly, the Starman and other invincibility items are referred to as just that; invincibility items. Of course, this does come with limits (falling into lava for the Starman), and those are the exceptions we make to the "invincible" status. We don't see a Starman user get their items taken away from them, so it's not exempt from the invincibility status.

We don't see the items taken away from them because no one ever tried.

A fight breaking out over Mewtwo stealing someone's items.

How is that resistance?

Does he ever actually destroy what he planned to?

We saw him charging up power to do it.

Solid steel cannot be crushed easily (or at all within a confined space), but is susceptible to laser cutting.

That would mean the laser is more powerful.

Here's a video of it.

I didn't see a laser there.

For maybe a second.

A second is enough time to fire his cutters.

Again, I fail to see how him being at a disadvantage is relevant.

Wait, what were we even talking about here anyways?

The button and defeating Marx are both triggers.

Got any statements to back this up?

Marx's energy (or some other outside force) launches Marx when Marx is launched.

The outside force here would be Kirby's attack, because the attack hit Marx.

Then why doesn't he the second time?

Why doesn't he what?

I'd keep my hands off of a fast-moving object with a sword if I were Kirby.

He could have still dropped the hat and prepared his arms.

Fair enough. How about Sonic and Shadow, then?

We can see several differences between Sonic and Shadow, but none between MK and the MK clone.

And Sonic would blast through the Helper. Steel robots show no resistance to the Boost, so I don't see why a tiny Helper would.

As proven earlier, the robots aren't steel. Also, Kirby would just turn around and Sonic would boost into Kirby's mouth.

Kirby would be sent flying backwards from the impact.

Does that happen when Sonic used the light speed attack?

Sonic's willpower would prevent him from being asleep for too long.

Willpower doesn't decrease one's time of sleeping.

Of course, this is assuming that Kirby somehow survives an FTL attack from a razor-sharp buzzsaw of a hedgehog.

Kirby is durable, so yeah, he can.

Yes, sometimes, and usually not. Point?

You can't compare our skin to Kirby's unless it's a definite yes for all three.

It's concentrated in a smaller area than the explosion. The explosion is spread out over the entire planet, whereas the Spin Dash concentrates its force onto an area of a few feet.

Kirby was in the center of the explosion when it happened, meaning he would've been hit by most (if not all) of the force provided.

Right. I'm just showing that the Kirby series isn't hesitant to show any damage Planet Popstar takes.

In Megaton Punch's case, we needed to see the damage in order to determine who won.

This isn't Smash logic. A powerful gust of wind (i.e. a tornado) could blow me up into the air, but it doesn't damage me in any significant way.

I imagine it would damage you, because the wind is hitting you.

Brian Shaw can lift over 900 pounds, and he weights less than that. Can he pull himself into tiny cracks?

Brian isn't squishy or tiny like Kirby, so no comparison here.

The fire would simply follow Kirby.

Though Kirby is intangible, so the fireball would just go through him anyways.

Has Jet destroyed fireballs before?

It destroyed the ground, which is weaker than a fireball.

Or he's in shock after crashing into the ground at high speeds and feeling the full force of the impact.

The Warp Star slows down right before it crashes.

Bowser is spinning, so Jet Kirby will constantly be going in circles.

As I said earlier, it's like Bowser isn't spinning at all, because Jet Kirby moves at much higher speeds.

He could stop suddenly, sending Jet Kirby crashing into a wall.

He can't react in time.

Can he curve them like he'd need to here?

Quite a few of his attacks can be controlled and curved.

He could ram into Kirby while spinning, damaging him with the spikes.

Kirby would attack far away/in the air and out of Bowser's reach.

Unless we find Mario crushing more blocks without stopping.

You do that.

By the way, I'd like to bring up the Gold Flower. It turns whatever it touches into a Coin for Mario to collect, which would also work on Kirby.

And Kirby flies over the fireball easily.

Okay, quote the part where you provided a canon source for Kirby squeezing into a small crack.

"You can slip through the crack if you're flat. Kirby lifts 3.5 tons, as was calculated by throwing Popon around the sun."

Right. That's what you said with Kirby's color.

Exactly. Kirby being pink can't disprove anything, and neither can the black hole's lack of distortion.

Real black holes don't:

• Have a lack of distortion near the center
• Have purple swirly things around them
• Exist inside of a head that doesn't get sucked in for some reason

Ultimately, none of those disprove that the Schwarz' black hole lacks the power of a real one. Both the basic function and classification are the same, so that suggests that a Kirby black hole has the same amount of power as a real black hole, at least.

They're in space, completely black, have distortion around them (without a break in distortion near the center), etc.

See above.

He launched Marx sideways a tiny bit, and then he launched himself up into the planet.

Why would Marx launch himself? The only thing logical is that Kirby did the launching, and that the motion to the side was either a moment of suspense or a slingshot action.

Then how do they become all of the things at once when becoming a full galaxy?

I don't think they actually become the objects, the objects just form themselves, and the Luma turns into the galaxy around it. Also, they never become all of the things individually.

https://www.google.com/search?q=illogical pokemon moves&oq=illogical pokemon&aqs=chrome.1.69i57j0l2.3296j0j1&sourceid=chrome&es_sm=122&ie=UTF-8#q=illogical pokemon

Can you give me a specific link?

Some manholes can be compared to all black holes.

Schwarz' black holes have more of a comparison. They provide powerful suction, and are classified as black holes.

It makes events happen in the story.

It doesn't. The bonus cutscenes are completely separate from the actual story.

Has anything ever tried to separate Kirby, but failed?

Meta Knight's slicing attacks would separate a piece of Play-Doh, but they don't separate Kirby.

Does Baton actually control minds, or is it just TK?

It doesn't control minds, it is TK.

We haven't seen Super Sonic face a TK user (such as Silver), but a bit of modding can help shed some light on the subject:

Of course, it is just a mod/hack, so take it with a grain of salt, but it's the best look we have.

I didn't really see Silver using any telekinesis there anyways.

Except from below. The Yellow Wisp turns Sonic into a drill that can pierce through surfaces.

He can't pierce through suction, however.

It's practically instant; refer to the video I linked during my discussion with Dryn.

Can you use a quote/other link? I couldn't find what you were talking about.

He could charge up on the front of the Extreme Gear.

When he steps forward, Kirby fires the Baton beam. If he went too fast for Kirby to fire, there'd be a good chance he'd fall off. Kirby can also fire when Sonic is getting on the Extreme Gear, or when he's activating it.

Who ever said anything about being forced to make observations?

If he's not being forced to, then stress would lead to him not making observations.

Sure.

Olimar has taken blows from giant monsters without getting concussions (he doesn't do recovering necessary for a concussion), so a simple tumble and roll wouldn't give him one.

Unless the glass has been shown to be bulletproof, it wouldn't protect him. The Pikmin would get shot at.

The Pikmin would get shot at, and they'd block the attacks. Also, no counter for disarming the officers of the guns.

No, they would reflect my position on the stance I'm talking about. Olimar saying something =/= the game telling us something.

Olimar is talking something he saw in the game, so basically, the game is telling us something.

And Olimar goes insane near the very end of Pikmin 1. I'm beginning to sense a pattern here...

He goes insane before he fights the monster. No pattern.

And then he's back, and the relief is no more.

He's back where?

"Could he have been controlling that beast all along?! No... that's craziness!" - King of Bugs description
Different type of crazy.
"For example, why are some women so crazy about things that sparkle?" - Eternal Emerald Eye description
Again, different type of crazy.

Let's look at the definitions of crazy.
1) mentally deranged, especially as manifested in a wild or aggressive way.

• extremely annoyed or angry.
• foolish.

2) extremely enthusiastic.

(of an angle) appearing absurdly out of place or in an unlikely position.

• (of a ship or building) full of cracks or flaws; unsound or shaky.

3) extremely.

4) a mentally deranged person.

The Eternal Emerald Eye description best fits definition 2. The King of Bugs description best fits definition 1, the second subdefinition. Olimar thinking the Dimensional Slicer cuts through space and time, when it doesn't, would also fit in definition 1, second subdefintion.

Right. Olimar is worried about Louie being killed, himself being eaten by beasts, his Pikmin friends being killed (which often happens depending on the player), the debt remaining unpaid, etc.

Olimar dealt with, or is dealing with, all of those.

"Emotional and psychological trauma is the result of extraordinarily stressful events that shatter your sense of security, making you feel helpless and vulnerable in a dangerous world."
Olimar definitely felt helpless and vulnerable in the dangerous world of PNF-404. Without Pikmin, he'd be dead meat.

But he had Pikmin, so he didn't feel helpless or vulnerable.

The fabric of time and space is not one of them.

Then the physical proof is the ship analyzing the slicer and telling what it does.

They're rapid-fire.

See below.

They don't deflect off of each other.

Which is a game mechanic.

Rosalina could use the force field to position Kirby just right for an attack, as well as waiting out invincibility and all.

Kirby begins flying inside the forcefield, so he's ready to escape right when it opens.

When Kirby teleports, Rosalina creates another field.

And Kirby teleports again. Eventually, the Mega Mushroom wears off and isn't a problem anymore.

As in, it'll give Sonic time to attack Marth before he gets the sword again.

The damage will eventually be healed anyways.

Sonic Wind deals damage over time to Marth.

Lifesphere heals damage over time to Marth. These would just counteract with each other.

It's unnecessary here though, thanks to the Blue Tornado followed up by a Spin Attack.

Blue Tornado is negated by Falchion, and even if it wasn't, Marth would hold his sword inside his sheathes to prevent them from being stolen. Spin Attack is negated as well.

And Sonic knocks them out again.

Marth picks them back up.

Also, time freezing.

Sonic can't knock things around with time freezing,

Most likely. That or it wouldn't affect him at all.

Why wouldn't it affect him at all.

No, his body is altered. His personality is the exact same.

Regular Sonic isn't feral, so the personality isn't the exact same.

Oh, well that changes things.

Yep.

The materials are at full potential.

The actual product isn't.

Too tight of a fit.

Being "too tight" doesn't stop teleportation, and Kirby is squishy anyways.

If they were frozen in place, you couldn't move.

Time freezing would probably just work on objects you can actually touch.

We don't see them unfreeze them because they can just move them aside.

We don't see them do that either.

When does something resist moving while in Chaos Control, when it normally would move?

Sonic/Shadow/Silver hit something, and it doesn't take any knockback.

Yes.

Ah.

In Metroid Prime and Metroid Prime 2: Echoes, activating the power bomb is instant. The hypernova wouldn't work against Samus because in Metroid Prime, there are creatures called jelzaps that are able to suck enemies in. This includes Samus. But, after Samus acquires the gravity suit, this suction ability doesn't work on Samus anymore. She'll remain in the same spot, whereas without the gravity suit, she's pulled in. Honestly, in order to pull in someone whose total mass is 190.99 kg., you'll need a high suctioning ability. So jelzaps aren't to be dismissed and are probably a good comparison to Kirby's hypernova. If that doesn't work, though, the boost ball can help Samus escape, since when Metroid Prime uses its snare beams, Samus can use the boost ball to break away.

Kirby can use Ninja Kirby or Jet Kirby to avoid the Power Bomb.

Is Kirby also quick enough to respond to Samus' beams and missiles?

Reflect Guard and Reflect Force are instant. If Kirby isn't quick enough, he can always activate the moves as Samus raises her arm cannon.

How will his mirror ability do against beams that can pass through solid objects?

There are several attacks in the series that go through walls, and I believe Mirror Kirby can reflect them.

Finally, is Kirby really able to withstand 289.89 tons of TNT?

Are you referring to Mirror Kirby? He doesn't really withstand the damage, he sends it back. Reflect Guard works against attacks Kirby can't block with the Guard ability.

 

[Munomario777]

We don't see the items taken away from them because no one ever tried.

Thus, we use the default "invincibility" description in relation to stealing items.

How is that resistance?

The person is resisting, or struggling against, the item being taken away.

We saw him charging up power to do it.

I could attempt to charge up enough power in a generator to lift my house into orbit, but that doesn't mean that it would actually work.

That would mean the laser is more powerful.

Similarly, a mirror bounces lasers away, but can be easily crushed.

I didn't see a laser there.

It's on the left hand side.

A second is enough time to fire his cutters.

And then he can't fire his cutters because he's too far away.

Wait, what were we even talking about here anyways?

You brought up something about a "disadvantage" and how that somehow matters in the context of Kirby launching Marx.

Got any statements to back this up?

Marx launches off independent from the knockback from Kirby's attack once he was defeated.

The outside force here would be Kirby's attack, because the attack hit Marx.

And the finger hit the button.

Why doesn't he what?

Know to grab on.

He could have still dropped the hat and prepared his arms.

How would that help him grab onto a super-fast object?

We can see several differences between Sonic and Shadow, but none between MK and the MK clone.

In gameplay, they're practically the same. They're even similar from a visual standpoint, since Shadow was based on ancient prophecies about Super Sonic saving the world (or something along those lines).

As proven earlier, the robots aren't steel. Also, Kirby would just turn around and Sonic would boost into Kirby's mouth.

The shields are at least, and the Boost goes straight through them. Kirby can't turn around in time.

Does that happen when Sonic used the light speed attack?

No, because the robots die in one hit.

Willpower doesn't decrease one's time of sleeping.

If he can resist mind control, it's safe to say that he could prevent himself from sleeping through a battle. Plus, his quills can sense danger, including Kirby's attacks.

Kirby is durable, so yeah, he can.

Prove it.

You can't compare our skin to Kirby's unless it's a definite yes for all three.

A human without bones, then.

Kirby was in the center of the explosion when it happened, meaning he would've been hit by most (if not all) of the force provided.

Which doesn't at all damage the planet.

In Megaton Punch's case, we needed to see the damage in order to determine who won.

And in Triple Deluxe's case, we don't see the damage because there is no damage to see.

I imagine it would damage you, because the wind is hitting you.

A tornado doesn't necessarily injure you that much, but sends you flying into the air. A bullet will likely kill you, but won't knock you back.

Brian isn't squishy or tiny like Kirby, so no comparison here.

Prove that Kirby's squishy enough to accomplish this. He cannot flatten himself without getting crushed between two objects, so why would he be able to here?

Though Kirby is intangible, so the fireball would just go through him anyways.

And it would then hit him when he reappears.

It destroyed the ground, which is weaker than a fireball.

I'd say solid earth is rather durable. Either way, fire doesn't break like a solid object. It gets extinguished.

The Warp Star slows down right before it crashes.

Really?

As I said earlier, it's like Bowser isn't spinning at all, because Jet Kirby moves at much higher speeds.

It's still like going around a round object; you need to turn.

He can't react in time.

He could just constantly vary his speed; no reaction needed.

Quite a few of his attacks can be controlled and curved.

Can the attack you mention be curved?

Kirby would attack far away/in the air and out of Bowser's reach.

No, Kirby is near Bowser at this point; he tried to approach, but Bowser deterred him.

You do that.

I'm not sure why we're comparing the Stone ability and the Ground Pound in the first place; it wouldn't really affect the matchup.

And Kirby flies over the fireball easily.

Unless he's in Stone form.

"You can slip through the crack if you're flat. Kirby lifts 3.5 tons, as was calculated by throwing Popon around the sun."

"If you're flat". Kirby is not flat.

Exactly. Kirby being pink can't disprove anything, and neither can the black hole's lack of distortion.

Real black holes don't lack distortion.

Ultimately, none of those disprove that the Schwarz' black hole lacks the power of a real one. Both the basic function and classification are the same, so that suggests that a Kirby black hole has the same amount of power as a real black hole, at least.

Real black holes cause spaghettification. Schwarz pulls Kirby in slowly.

Why would Marx launch himself?

Why would a car explode?

The only thing logical is that Kirby did the launching, and that the motion to the side was either a moment of suspense or a slingshot action.

That's not logical.

I don't think they actually become the objects, the objects just form themselves, and the Luma turns into the galaxy around it.

The Lumas transform into the galaxies. The objects are never shown, implied, stated, etc to be there beforehand.

Also, they never become all of the things individually.

And?

Can you give me a specific link?

No, because there are so many to choose from. Just look at a few on the page I linked you to.

Schwarz' black holes have more of a comparison. They provide powerful suction, and are classified as black holes.

See above.

It doesn't. The bonus cutscenes are completely separate from the actual story.

They happen at the end of the story.

Meta Knight's slicing attacks would separate a piece of Play-Doh, but they don't separate Kirby.

A chunk of ballistics gel, then.

It doesn't control minds, it is TK.

Then Sonic should be able to use Chaos Control to escape.

I didn't really see Silver using any telekinesis there anyways.

When Silver says "It's no use!", he's trying to grab Shadow.

He can't pierce through suction, however.

And the suction isn't below Kirby.

Can you use a quote/other link? I couldn't find what you were talking about.

Sure.

When he steps forward, Kirby fires the Baton beam.

Hm?

If he went too fast for Kirby to fire, there'd be a good chance he'd fall off.

And yet he never does.

Kirby can also fire when Sonic is getting on the Extreme Gear, or when he's activating it.

He can go from running to riding in an instant; this happens often during gameplay, as a matter of fact.

If he's not being forced to, then stress would lead to him not making observations.

Do you have a source for this?

Olimar has taken blows from giant monsters without getting concussions (he doesn't do recovering necessary for a concussion), so a simple tumble and roll wouldn't give him one.

The giant monsters could be a source for concussions, now that I think about it.

The Pikmin would get shot at, and they'd block the attacks.

Prove that bullets would get stopped by the Pikmin.

Also, no counter for disarming the officers of the guns.

Except getting the guns back.

Olimar is talking something he saw in the game, so basically, the game is telling us something.

Except we don't know that he saw it.

He goes insane before he fights the monster. No pattern.

And then he goes insane again; he claims that a normal knife can slice through dimensions, in a game where no other dimension slicing exists.

He's back where?

On PNF-404, the source of his stress etc.

Let's look at the definitions of crazy.
1) mentally deranged, especially as manifested in a wild or aggressive way.

• extremely annoyed or angry.
• foolish.

2) extremely enthusiastic.

(of an angle) appearing absurdly out of place or in an unlikely position.

• (of a ship or building) full of cracks or flaws; unsound or shaky.

3) extremely.

4) a mentally deranged person.

Right, but there's another definition. The King of Bugs description refers to a silly thought or idea, the EEE description refers to 2), and Olimar is being diagnosed with 1) and 4).

The Eternal Emerald Eye description best fits definition 2. The King of Bugs description best fits definition 1, the second subdefinition. Olimar thinking the Dimensional Slicer cuts through space and time, when it doesn't, would also fit in definition 1, second subdefintion.

It's a silly thought, not an insane person.

Olimar dealt with, or is dealing with, all of those.

Right; he's dealing with them, leading to stress, anxiety, etc.

But he had Pikmin, so he didn't feel helpless or vulnerable.

Olimar is helpless. The Pikmin just happen to be helping him, and could turn on him at any time.

Then the physical proof is the ship analyzing the slicer and telling what it does.

When do we see this process, and when is it proven true?

Which is a game mechanic.

How so?

Kirby begins flying inside the forcefield, so he's ready to escape right when it opens.

And Rosalina goes in front of where Kirby is flying towards.

And Kirby teleports again. Eventually, the Mega Mushroom wears off and isn't a problem anymore.

And Rosalina creates another forcefield again, or creates a bigger forcefield so Kirby can't teleport out (it has a limited range for all we know).

The damage will eventually be healed anyways.

Lifesphere heals damage over time to Marth. These would just counteract with each other.

Unless Sonic KOs Marth quickly enough.

Blue Tornado is negated by Falchion, and even if it wasn't, Marth would hold his sword inside his sheathes to prevent them from being stolen.

Blue Tornado isn't negated by things like shields, so I don't see why the Falchion would block it. Putting a sword in a sheath doesn't prevent it from being stolen by someone who can freeze time.

Spin Attack is negated as well.

Unless Falchion is gone.

Marth picks them back up.

Sonic attacks him before then.

Sonic can't knock things around with time freezing,

Actually, Team Dark's Team Blast in Sonic Heroes involves the team attacking enemies during Chaos Control's time freezing.

Why wouldn't it affect him at all.

His willpower. It's up in the air, though.

Regular Sonic isn't feral, so the personality isn't the exact same.

Prove that his personality is feral.

The actual product isn't.

The product is a dagger.

Being "too tight" doesn't stop teleportation, and Kirby is squishy anyways.

If the suit is skin-tight or near skin-tight (which the Power Suit is), there's nowhere for Kirby to teleport.

Time freezing would probably just work on objects you can actually touch.

You can touch air.

We don't see them do that either.

Then how are they moving?

Sonic/Shadow/Silver hit something, and it doesn't take any knockback.

When?

Kirby can use Ninja Kirby or Jet Kirby to avoid the Power Bomb.

And Samus uses more Power Bombs. The gunship is faster than Jet Kirby.

Are you referring to Mirror Kirby? He doesn't really withstand the damage, he sends it back. Reflect Guard works against attacks Kirby can't block with the Guard ability.

Can Mirror Kirby withstand explosions of this strength?

 

[Crystanium]

No, it's the consensus of the rules voting.

Votes that did not present arguments in favor of this.

Then I won't discuss this matter with you.

That's your choice, but I think it needs to be discussed among everyone.

I addressed it by mentioning the rule that contradicts it.

I used lore and logic. I'll present it again for you and for others to see in case anyone else missed. @ Reckless Godwin 2.0 @ Nerdicon @ShadowLBlue @ Kirby Dragons

Please give me your opinion on the matter, everyone!

• P1: The nova beam is defined as "a high-frequency beam". [1]
• P2: The nova beam is used in conjunction with the x-ray visor. [2]
• P3: X-rays are high-frequency electromagnetic rays. [3]
• C: Therefore, it is highly probable that the nova beam fires x-rays. (From P2 and P3.)

• P1: The nova beam shares the same design as the light beam and wave beam. [4][5][6]
• P2: The light beam fires light. [7]
• P3: Visible light is part of the electromagnetic spectrum. [3]
• P4: All electromagnetic radiation travels at the speed of light. [8]
• C: Therefore, the light beam travels the speed of light. (From P2, P3, and P4.)

• P1: The wave beam shares the same design as the light beam and nova beam. [4][5][6]
• P2: The wave beam fires "wave energy". [9] (This phrase is redundant as all waves transfer energy.)
• P3: Mechanical waves requires a medium and cannot travel in a vacuum.
• P4: Electromagnetic waves can travel in a vacuum.
• P5: The wave beam is an electromagnetic wave. (From P2 and P4.)
• P6: Electromagnetic waves travel at the speed of light. [8]
• C: The wave beam travels the speed of light. (From P5 and P6.)

• P1: The wave, light, and nova beam pass through solid objects. [10][11][2]
• P2: Super Zebesians fire beams capable of passing through solid objects.
• P3: The wave, light, and nova beams are the only known technologies capable of passing through solid objects.
• P4: Space pirates are known for reverse-engineering Samus' technology.
• C: Therefore, it is highly probable that the super Zebesians are using one of these technologies, which are capable of traveling light speed.

1. "The Nova Beam is a high-frequency Beam that can shoot through certain objects." - Metroid Prime 3: Corruption, Inventory, Nova Beam
2. "The Nova Beam can shoot through objects made of Phazite and hit weak points or hidden targets. Many of these can be found by using the X-Ray Visor." - Metroid Prime 3: Corruption, Inventory, Nova Beam
3. Electromagnetic spectrum
4. Nova Beam
5. Light Beam
6. Wave Beam
7. "Find this weapon, so its great light may blind and burn our foes once more." - I-Sha
8. Speed of Light
9. Metroid: Zero Mission manual, p. 25
10. Super Metroid manual, p. 23
11. "The Light Beam can shoot through multiple enemies." - Metroid Prime 2: Echoes, Inventory, Light Beam

Yes, that could very well be how the Light Speed Dash works, which explains how Sonic is unaffected by gravity during the dash. It could come in handy for reaching high-up foes and such.

When something travels very fast, it can cover a distance greater than an object traveling slower, giving it the impression that it's not affected by gravity. Light would give us this impression, but if we saw light firing perpendicular to a black hole, but at the event horizon, we'd see it easily bend because the black hole's gravity is far greater.

I don't see how being tied to the Star Posts makes it inherently a game mechanic.

It's tied to the diagonal speed boost.

The Boost doesn't have very good turning, so it would make sense to slow down a bit in order to travel along twisting trails of Rings or home in on close bunches of enemies.

I'm sorry?

"Hypersonic" means above Mach 5.5, which definitely includes light speed. Also, that description was in Sonic Adventure, long before he learned the Boost.

If you're very broad with the word, but NASA defines it as greater than Mach 5. I presume they're defining "supersonic" at Mach 5, rather than Mach 4.9. High hypersonic is approximately Mach 25. That means you cannot define "hypersonic" as "Above Mach 5.5" or including light speed. At best, you could define "luminal speed" to mean 299,792,458 m/s and anything above that as "superluminal".